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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: craziness post divorce/no custody order  (Read 2884 times)
GaGrl
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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2013, 10:29:45 PM »

Amen sister!

Consistency!

And authenthic love.

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nowheretogo
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2013, 03:23:57 PM »

So L is writing a letter that  I just reviewed, stating the text messaging is harrassing, and if not stopped I will take further action.  The letter also reiterates the schedule of every other weekend and after daycare (for ex) from 4-6:15 when I come to pick her up.  Also specifically states gp visit schedule (Fri-next Wed) and that the already mentioned schedule will resume next Wed. afternoon. Talks about not having interactions at exchanges and changing to a neutral location if there are problems.  It asks him to provide of list of items he wants from my house and to provide that to his attorney.  Lastly, it advises that I will no longer be paying for his cell phone or vehicle insurances after the next week.

No sooner than I read over the draft, did I get a text from ex:  "I will be keeping D2 tonight... .   I also sent you an email ref other days"

The email reads as follows:

Since you refuse to communicate and work out a schedule that is fair to D2 and both parents.

         I will be keeping D2 tonight 4/11/2012. I will also keep her tomorrow night Friday 4/12/2013. You can pick her up on Sat Morning at 9am so that she may visit with the Grandparents and S7 on Sat and Sun... . I would like to have her Tuesday and Weds April 16th and 17th since I will be working that weekend.Or Weds and Thursday. Since you do not have S7 on Weds. However, I thought since S7 goes with his dad that weekend you would want him to see her on Thursday. Please let me know which days would work for you.

-------

NONE! NONE! NONE! 

Ugh, I just feel sick again.

So now, he will probably get letter from L sometime while I am on the way to pick up D2, and I am just worried sick about everything again.

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ForeverDad
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2013, 03:33:48 PM »

Just mentioning for backgound information, though probably you're already aware.  Many courts do favor more frequent visits with children under 3 years old than the 'standard' alternate weekends and an evening or overnight in between.  Since D2 is almost D3, don't let him mire you in the age 2 claims.  This is the time for him to push and posture to jostle for his preferred scenario/outcome, so of course that's what he's doing.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2013, 08:21:58 AM »

God, I can't stand him!

He played hide and seek last night.  I went to pick her up at 6:15, just like I have always said I would do, just like the correspondence from my attorney says.  Texted him that I was there.  His truck was there, the doors were locked and the shades and curtains drawn.  They either weren't there or he was silencing her.  The tv was on loud and I could never hear her. I knocked on the door and window, and tried for about 20 min.  While I was there I got the following string of texts:

I sent u an email she is spending the night

We have a play date arranged with her

I also sent u a text

If u continue to harras me I am going to call the cops

I am her dad she has every right to be with me just as she does with u... . you have had her Mon tues and weds. night

I have requsted that we come up with a fair agreement until court u continue to try and keep me from her.  I have been in her life since day one and I took care of her the majority of the time.  I do not come to ur house and disrupt your time

Then, when I called to say goodnight at 849 pm,

D2 is sleeping and so was I

Ex, u are forcing my hand... .   I wanted to remain friends however if u come to my house besides on sat morning to pick up D2 I will call the police.  I do not come over to your house and I am not trying to keep her from you... .   again D2 has structure here she is in bed sleeping.  Her bed time is at 830 I guess its anytime when she iw with u.  I do follow a structer environment here she had supper snack we played and then went to bed.  Just as she should

------------------

He doesn't come over?  He only stopped since I've changed the locks and what about the whole episode last WEd?  That was during my time with D2! 

And structure?  First of all, he's lying.   And what about he doesn't take her to daycare half of the time because "she doesn't want to go", or much later than her usual routine with me, and what happened to his argument from before the divorce that it doesn't matter when she goes to bed, because she doesn't have to school?
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livednlearned
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2013, 10:51:33 AM »

That is actually a helpful exchange to share with the courts -- it makes him look really bad.

Napping at 6:15pm is not believable in the context of those texts. He is not believable. Calling the cops when you are following through on an agreement? I don't think so. Also, cops can't enforce civil matters, and this is a civil matter. All they can do is a well-child check. You might want to call them in advance and tell them what's happening. "I am picking my daughter up at the scheduled time and my ex is threatening to call the cops. I would like you to come and make sure everyone is safe while I pick up my daughter."

Or something like that.

I know it's hard to see right now, but he is handing his head to you on a platter. People said the same thing to me when my ex acted like this, and I was like you -- furious, exasperated, flooded by feelings in the moment. It's hard to feel calm when our babies are in the middle  :'(

So I know it's hard to see, but you are doing great, and he is being totally predictable, and eventually his crazy is going to show up in court and blow up in his face. This exchange is a sign of someone who is in it to win it, not to do what's best for D2. He is acting like he's arguing over a doll and that makes the courts pissed.





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nowheretogo
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2013, 11:42:26 AM »

lnl, not sure where you got the 6:15 naptime out of the messages... .   but that's ok... .   he still sounds crazy, right?

I am waiting to hear from my L who will have hopefully talked to exs L, to maybe make the exchange for tonight ok.  Otherwise, I am sure he'll be playing hide and seek again.  I don't care if he calls the cops, my parents are going to be with me, and I'm bringing the letters from my L from 4/1 and from today, both stating the same schedule, which has been the same one I have consistently stuck to.  I will be pointing out the fact that he is so cooperative that he called you, the police, to keep my parents from seeing their granddaughter (that they only see 1-2 x a year and drove 7 hours today to be with)!  His guise will be that he "told me" that he is keeping her again tonight, and therefore since I am at his residence I am harrassing him... .   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2013, 12:03:43 PM »

lnl, not sure where you got the 6:15 naptime out of the messages... .   but that's ok... .   he still sounds crazy, right?

I am waiting to hear from my L who will have hopefully talked to exs L, to maybe make the exchange for tonight ok.  Otherwise, I am sure he'll be playing hide and seek again.  I don't care if he calls the cops, my parents are going to be with me, and I'm bringing the letters from my L from 4/1 and from today, both stating the same schedule, which has been the same one I have consistently stuck to.  I will be pointing out the fact that he is so cooperative that he called you, the police, to keep my parents from seeing their granddaughter (that they only see 1-2 x a year and drove 7 hours today to be with)!  His guise will be that he "told me" that he is keeping her again tonight, and therefore since I am at his residence I am harrassing him... .   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Oh, haha. I'm dyslexic, so me and numbers have a shaky relationship  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

But yes. He is still coming across as difficult, like he's arguing over a doll instead of following the proposed schedule and keeping things consistent for D2. He's also telling you exactly what he plans to say about you when he appears in court. So document every way in which he is wrong. If he says you are not structured, then demonstrate, document, show, prove the ways in which you are.

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nowheretogo
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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2013, 12:09:01 PM »

Oh, haha... .   that's funny.  You should join DAM (Mothers against dyslexia) Smiling (click to insert in post)

I hope you are right about the feeding his head to me on a platter, because that is definitely where I want it  Smiling (click to insert in post)

He is so structured... .   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)... .   I'll bet she didn't go to daycare today... .   and what about changing the 6:15 to 7 pm at the last minute the past few days... .  

omg... .   I have never felt like this about anyone before
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2013, 12:52:51 PM »

Guess what, I was right.  MR. "I do follow a structer environment here" kept her out of daycare today.  Also Mr. "I'm not trying to keep her from seeing you."

God help me.
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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2013, 01:13:25 PM »

Excerpt
He's also telling you exactly what he plans to say about you when he appears in court. So document every way in which he is wrong. If he says you are not structured, then demonstrate, document, show, prove the ways in which you are.

If possible, I would go and get a copy of the log(s) for D2's daycare. 

I know of several instances you mentioned in your posts of his obstruction of bedtime routine for D2. 

Forcibly snatching your daughter out of her car seat in front of the neighbors.

With good documentation/incidents, your can lock him into a lie(s) on the witness stand and then prove he did lie.  I can't remember if it was Matt or Forever Dad that shared that when my son was involved in his custody case, but it does work.  Judges tend to look at  anything else they say with skepticism.   


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GaGrl
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« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2013, 01:24:28 PM »

What Matt recommends is a deposition prior to any trial.  Many, many questions are asked at the deposition, and answers are under oath.  Your lawyer then has the ability to go into depth regarding those answers -- "Mr. X, in your deposition of mm/dd/yyyy you said... .   <whatever>; however, I have here attendance records from D's school indicating that she was not delivered to school on the following dates when she was in your care.  How do you explain that?"

etc. etc. etc.

Matt had something like 40 items on which she had perjured herself.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2013, 02:03:47 PM »

Yes, I am definitely going to try to obtain attendance logs from the daycare and show how she was out on multiple occasions when in his care, or only there from late morning hrs... .   often brings her in at 11 am, etc, when usu. I bring her in by 7 or 7:30.

Where is Matt?  Can any of you, maybe FD, speak to me some more about depositions? 

I know when the detective was going to hold a deposition with ex when he was trying to get the PI thing going, ex quickly withdrew his whole application and dropped that whole thing like a hotcake!  Seemed he was worried about being questioned about his old probation officer job and events around losing it.
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« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2013, 06:01:19 PM »

Yes, I am definitely going to try to obtain attendance logs from the daycare and show how she was out on multiple occasions when in his care, or only there from late morning hrs... .   often brings her in at 11 am, etc, when usu. I bring her in by 7 or 7:30.

Where is Matt?  Can any of you, maybe FD, speak to me some more about depositions? 

I know when the detective was going to hold a deposition with ex when he was trying to get the PI thing going, ex quickly withdrew his whole application and dropped that whole thing like a hotcake!  Seemed he was worried about being questioned about his old probation officer job and events around losing it.

I was deposed, so was N/BPDx.

It's a powerful tool for those of us who have disordered spouses. The emotional reasoning thing really shows up as lying in a deposition. My ex did a swan dive into a shark tank. It was awful preparing for it -- your job in a deposition is to focus on answering ONLY the question being asked. Many people tend to explain more than what they need to answer. So that kinda freaked me out and I was a mess going into the deposition. But being a good non, I followed the rules carefully. My L said she has never had such a good client. She even had to confer with me mid-deposition (pee break) and tell me to let me foot off the brakes a bit.

Anyway, it's a good tool because our exes tend to make up facts to fit the feelings, and that essentially puts them at risk of perjuring themselves. My ex is an attorney. A trial attorney. He boasted that he had done more depositions that he could count. And then he imploded right in front of us.

After the deposition, a transcriber will send you copies of the deposition. They count every single use of every single word and index the whole thing. It's weird. But it allowed me to see that I used the word "confusing" and "confused" a lot. And I mean a lot. By accident, N/BPDx's L tipped me off that I was a "confused" person, so I looked at the deposition and saw that I used that word to describe N/BPDx's behavior. It backfired on me. (Thanks to Matt for helping me figure out what was going on). Once I had an idea how N/BPDx's L was going to use the deposition, I could prepare.

Fortunately, N/BPDx's L withdrew from the case, and N/BPDx had a psychotic episode that worried everyone. Oh, and he threatened the PC. So the deposition lost some of its importance. Still, it's a powerful tool if you don't have a lot of evidence and need to show who has their head on straight.
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« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2013, 11:42:37 PM »

Thanks Gagirl for adding that clarification.  Our attorney had to use in court as there we no depositions taken in my son's case.

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« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2013, 08:10:31 AM »

Here's how it worked in my case, and I think it's an approach that could be used in many cases, where the facts are important, or where accusations are being made... .  

My attorney filed a motion to depose my wife, and her attorney responded by filing a similar motion.  They worked out a practical schedule, and we we both supposed to bring all the financial stuff the other side had requested.  I showed up with several thick binders of information - one copy for the other side, one for my attorney, and one for the court.

My wife was deposed first.  At my attorney's request, I had prepared several pages of questions - all the questions on each topic together on one page, so each page was one topic, like ":)omestic violence accusations", "Accusations of infidelity", etc.  The idea is to go fairly deeply into each topic, and make the other party either admit things she doesn't want to admit, or lie under oath.

As my attorney asked the questions, sitting beside her, I signaled her when my wife was lying.  I had a big notepad, and when she lied, I would write a big * on the page, and sometimes add a few words to suggest a way my attorney could handle it, like

   * Police report said no bruises

Then my attorney could ask, "Mrs. Matt, you just said that Mr. Matt kicked you, is that right?  Did the police report indicate that you had any bruises?  Did the police officers ask if you had any bruises?  Did they ask to see the place where you say Mr. Matt kicked you?" etc.  Get as much detail as possible, so it becomes very clear that a tale is being spun, and any key piece of information, get the other party to say it several times, so it's clear she is claiming something that isn't true - not just a single mis-statement, but an elaborate and deliberate lie.

This went on for four hours, and yes, when we later looked through the transcript, I could identify more than 40 specific statements which were objectively false.  The question then was, which of those to concentrate on, and find the evidence which would prove they were false, and prove that they were deliberate lies.  In some cases, it would be hard to prove what really happened, and in other cases, it would be hard to prove that my wife knew what she was saying was false.  But 10 or 15 of her statements we could easily prove were false and she could not have believed them to be true - she definitely knew she was lying.

The reason that's important is that if we went to trial, it would have happened several weeks later, so we had that time to gather the information and submit it to the court.  In my state, there is no surprise evidence - everything has to be submitted in advance, and the other side gets a copy.  So as we submitted each piece of evidence to the court, my wife's attorney could see that he client had lied, and that if she was put on the stand at trial, we would prove that she had lied under oath, and she was be forced to either admit, "What I said when I was deposed was false", or repeat the lies, and be proven to be lying under oath again at trial.  No way she could avoid being proved to have lied under oath - a crime.

And... .   an attorney is ethically obligated to take whatever steps she can to prevent her client from being in criminal jeopardy.  It would be a serious breach of ethics for my wife's lawyer to go to trial, knowing that her client would be proved to have committed a crime (lying under oath).  So she had to advise my wife to settle, even if she didn't get everything she wanted.  Which is what ultimately happened... .  

Anyway, the part where I was deposed was pretty easy.  My lawyer had told me, "Tell the truth, or if you don't remember say 'I don't remember', and above all keep it short.  If 'Yes' or 'No' will do, just say that and stop."  That's what I did, and they were done with me in two hours - didn't take the four available to them because there was nothing more to ask.

If the truth is on your side, depositions bring the truth into the spotlight sooner, and give you two opportunities to put the other party under oath - once in depositions, and again at trial - so you have the time in between to gather evidence about key issues.  If the other party isn't telling the truth, this puts you in a very strong position to get a good settlement, because the opposing attorney will want to settle, so her client doesn't have to go on the stand again, once you have shown that the other party is not a good witness and you are.

   
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GaGrl
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« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2013, 09:11:35 AM »

So I'm thinking that a deposition would allow a very deep questioning around attempts (or lack of) to find employment, financial contribution to the household (or lack thereof), structure, etc. Certainly the truth about his current "job" wouldst come out.

But it sounds as if he doesn't want anything about his past employment issues brought up. That in itself could be a point for leverage.
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« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2013, 08:36:17 PM »

Thank you all so much for the details and explanations. I am very upset right now kama had a rough night tonight calling the police again. ex is a lousy father, and alcoholic, and has major issues with anger and he has our daughter.  he scared her again tonight and then wouldn't give her to me. I went to pick her up and he pushed me away from the door and slammed the door in my face and said he was calling the cops. I called the cops for since he pushed me. I am NOT giving all the details now because I'm too exhausted. Let it suffice to say that he doesn't care what is in her best interest, but only what is going to be best for him in the long run.  I am definitely going to speak to my attorney tomorrow and I will ask about this deposition thing. it may be very useful as you say.
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« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2013, 09:03:25 PM »

More and more, your ex is demonstrating physical reactions to the lack of an agreement. This is going on too long. Your L needs to respond decisively in your behalf.
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« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2013, 10:01:26 PM »

police didn't seem to care that he pushed me, I guess because I wasn't hurt.  that is the second time he's pushed me in front of D2 this month.I think that we should at least document the violence in a  stern letter from my attorney.  and not allow for changes at the private residences any longer. I think we should say that I will b waiting for him at this neutral site of exchange tomorrow at 6:15 p.m., not changing the schedule and not giving in to his demand to keep her until Saturday. I have always stuck to the same schedule that I proposed from the beginning: every other weekend and he can pick her up after daycare until I get her from work at 615. again he wants to push that he must have her on the weekends when I have my sonand that he must have 50/50 as far as overnight.
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« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2013, 08:17:21 AM »

police didn't seem to care that he pushed me, I guess because I wasn't hurt.  that is the second time he's pushed me in front of D2 this month.I think that we should at least document the violence in a  stern letter from my attorney.  and not allow for changes at the private residences any longer. I think we should say that I will b waiting for him at this neutral site of exchange tomorrow at 6:15 p.m., not changing the schedule and not giving in to his demand to keep her until Saturday. I have always stuck to the same schedule that I proposed from the beginning: every other weekend and he can pick her up after daycare until I get her from work at 615. again he wants to push that he must have her on the weekends when I have my sonand that he must have 50/50 as far as overnight.

What are your thoughts about filing a protective or restraining order?
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« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2013, 08:43:40 AM »

police didn't seem to care that he pushed me, I guess because I wasn't hurt.  that is the second time he's pushed me in front of D2 this month.I think that we should at least document the violence in a  stern letter from my attorney.  and not allow for changes at the private residences any longer. I think we should say that I will b waiting for him at this neutral site of exchange tomorrow at 6:15 p.m., not changing the schedule and not giving in to his demand to keep her until Saturday. I have always stuck to the same schedule that I proposed from the beginning: every other weekend and he can pick her up after daycare until I get her from work at 615. again he wants to push that he must have her on the weekends when I have my sonand that he must have 50/50 as far as overnight.

The issue is that you have made a proposal that he has not accepted, and nothing has been ordered by the court.  This needs to change, and it needs to change quickly.  He is escalating the bad behavior.

Why can't your lawyer ask for an emegency hearing due to the pushing/physical contact?  At worst, perhaps an order will come out of it as to temp visitation hours and place of exchange.

You are correct -- the exchange point needs to be changed to a neutral location.  Many people exchange at a police station.

Of couse, if he refuses to take your D to the exchange location because he feels he should have her overnight, you'll find yourself waiting there for several hours.
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2013, 08:51:15 AM »

police didn't seem to care that he pushed me, I guess because I wasn't hurt. 

What do you mean that they didn't seem to care?
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« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2013, 10:37:03 AM »

I guess because I wasn't physically injured.  All they said was that "he shouldn't have done that" and "we'll say something to him about it."

Got an email from ex last night telling me how I am no longer allowed to be in or about his apartment, causing disturbances and quoting some criminal code, and saying how he will be forced to call the police if I do.

So I wrote the following email reply and sent it this morning:

This is a response to your email message dated April 17, 2013.  

For the record, knocking on your door is not causing a disturbance.  Yelling, pushing, and slamming doors is.  You scared D2 when you did those things again, and then kept her from me when she was crying in fear, "No!  No!  Mommy!  Mommy!" You did the same thing at my home on April 3rd when you were there unwelcomed when I came home from work that day after you had already moved out.  You were pushing me,  yelling at me, calling me a f******* b**** and other names and keeping D2 physically away from me while she was crying and screaming and asking for me.  Our daughter even verbalized while you could hear her in the midst of all that, that ":)addy pushed you.  :)addy is mean, and Daddy is fighting" while she continually yelled ":)addy, STOP!".  You caused such a disturbance, that two neighbors came to see what was going on.

From now on, because of your acts of violence, custody exchanges will occur at a neutral location.  The police suggested their police station on X Street, and I think that is the best idea.

To this date, my attorney and I have proposed only one schedule with a slight alteration around D2's grandparents' visitation.  That schedule is stated in the letter from my attorney on April 1st and restated in a second letter dated April 12th.  The schedule is every other weekend with your weekend beginning Fri, April 5th until Sunday, April 7th at 6:15 pm.  In addition, while you are temporarily working part time, you may pick her up from daycare Monday through Friday at 4 pm until I get her after work at 6:15 pm.  It is in D2's best interest to keep this routine and consistent schedule, spending the evenings during the week in the same stable and familiar place.  Again, because of your anger and overuse of alcohol, I am concerned about having her spend overnights at your home, when her safety is in question.  I will be waiting at 6:15 tonight at the police station in order to exchange custody of D2 as per the schedule.  If you are not there, it will be documented.
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nowheretogo
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Relationship status: married 11/2009, filed for divorce 11/2011; divorced 3/2013; primary custodian
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« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2013, 10:44:35 AM »

I don't know if he read my email yet or not, but I just got a text:

I have D2.  You really scared her by doing what you did last night.  we must think of D2 and set aside our differences.  I have allowed your time with her to be peaceful and I have also been fair. You are not permitted in or about apartment.  You can come to the side walk near the road only when u r to pick her up.  I also have not got all my things out I want my stuff by weds of next week.  You can pick D2 up at 10 am sat. 

(this is basically a reiteration of the email he sent me last night)

L is supposed to call me this afternoon on his way back from court... .   I am so fed up with this bs!  Yeah, right, I scared her.  It was his emotional reaction that scared her, she was excited that I was there until he reacted, and then she was scared!  He can try to make me look like the bad guy, but I'm not.  And he hasn't allowed my time to be peaceful... .   constant texting and other bs like the incident on Wed., April 3rd, mentioned in my email to him on my previous post.

How do I maintain my sanity while going through all of this hell?
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« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2013, 11:00:19 AM »

How do I maintain my sanity while going through all of this hell?

That's a really important question!

I would suggest you look to three sources of support... .  

First is "peers" - others who have been through similar stuff and can understand - us here and anyone else you know who gets it.

Second is family and close friends who may not understand all this stuff, but care about you and will support you.

Third is professional support.  I found a good counselor and saw him often when I was going through the worst stuff, and it helped a lot.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2013, 11:20:07 AM »

Well, I guess that is what I am doing.  It's just so weird to see and know the craziness, but to have to deal with others who don't know it in their limited contact with the case (ie, the police last night).
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Matt
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« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2013, 11:39:12 AM »

Well, I guess that is what I am doing.  It's just so weird to see and know the craziness, but to have to deal with others who don't know it in their limited contact with the case (ie, the police last night).

Yes - it's tempting to try to get everyone to see how crazy the other person is, but that doesn't work.

What works a little better is to show how not-crazy you are.  Make sure you act right 100% of the time, because if you lose your grip for a second, that's what everyone will remember, and they'll see it as two crazy people fighting.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2013, 11:43:22 AM »

Yes, I am keeping my cool.  You can be danged sure I won't be back over near his apt. again, either.  I'm not falling for that trap!  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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GaGrl
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« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2013, 12:34:14 PM »

I am concerned that, once he gets your email and a subsequent communication from your L, that your ex may not exchange your D tonight.  Is that a possibility?  What is your intent should that happen?
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"...what's past is prologue; what to come,
In yours and my discharge."
nowheretogo
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Posts: 665



« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2013, 12:40:54 PM »

He wasn't going to exchange her anyway.  He told the police (and me multiple times now) that he would keep her until Sat.  There is nothing I can do other than stick to my schedule, and try my best to do what is best for D2.  So I will show up at the police station at 6:15 and wait.  When he doesn't come, all I can do is document his continued lack of cooperation and present the information at the custody hearings.  Unfortunately, he does not truly have D2s best interest in mind.  If he did, he wouldn't push  me, yell at me, etc. in front of her all of the time, and then keep her when she clearly wants her mommy.
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