Denial

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have pondered of how I came to be in this mess in the first place with my EXBPDGF. we are not togther nor have I had any contact in two weeks and havent seen her in about 6 weeks. and Im ok with that. I have moved on. But what is burning in my mind was the denial I seemed to have been stuck in for two years. Even after I stumbled on BPD and it was like a light switch going off. I had finally found my answer to what the problem was. How could i have stayed so long. I never thought I could fix her. I knew she had to fix herself. Even after I read story and story from others on this board about how their relationship played out, I still stayed. That was very confusing to me about myself. Im usually very relistic about things, but i still held on even when confronted with hard evidence of what I was facing. Did I think she would over night just change? Did I think she would all of sudden see the error of her ways and seek help? I dont know. Then I wonder what was wrong with me that made me do all this. I have never been co-dependant in a relationship. I had never failed to set boundries. but why did this relationship change me. what happened to my mind? just a question im pondering about myself. What makes us do this when we figure out what is wrong and knowing the facts and the likely outcome why do we still hang on for so long?

[mitchell16]

I have pondered of how I came to be in this mess in the first place with my EXBPDGF. we are not togther nor have I had any contact in two weeks and havent seen her in about 6 weeks. and Im ok with that. I have moved on. But what is burning in my mind was the denial I seemed to have been stuck in for two years. Even after I stumbled on BPD and it was like a light switch going off. I had finally found my answer to what the problem was. How could i have stayed so long. I never thought I could fix her. I knew she had to fix herself. Even after I read story and story from others on this board about how their relationship played out, I still stayed. That was very confusing to me about myself. Im usually very relistic about things, but i still held on even when confronted with hard evidence of what I was facing. Did I think she would over night just change? Did I think she would all of sudden see the error of her ways and seek help? I dont know. Then I wonder what was wrong with me that made me do all this. I have never been co-dependant in a relationship. I had never failed to set boundries. but why did this relationship change me. what happened to my mind? just a question im pondering about myself. What makes us do this when we figure out what is wrong and knowing the facts and the likely outcome why do we still hang on for so long?

[Surrender]

I am trying to figure out the same thing, although I didn't figure it out until almost the end. However I stayed even after the abuse and the irrational continuous episodes, fights, rages and physical abuse. I knew something was very very wrong but I had no idea what it was. Then came the twisting of my mind, emotions and heart via his twisted demented thinking which had a strange rational logic to it according to his arguments. So the game continued and I sank deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole.

All I know is that everything they fear is EXACTLY what they will DO to ensure their fear becomes the reality they live in anyways.

I'll never figure out much of it... .   I just have to accept that I don't and never will be ok with any of what happened because I Love him and feel like I always will. I just hope for a better day... .   a better experience with someone who I will be able to connect with and even be happy. I can't say that I have any real hope in that right now because I can't see Loving anyone more than him. However, I can't change what IS and some things I just have to learn to accept and move on. Otherwise I will rob myself of any chance possible if that is even possible... .  

[maria1]

Hi there

It might be worth delving into the codependency a little more, seeing as you are asking the questions. A good book I read is 'Codependent no more' by Melody Beattie.

You may be surprised that you recognise parts of yourself and your behaviour in other areas of your life.

Worth a try maybe?

[Surrender]

Hi there

It might be worth delving into the codependency a little more, seeing as you are asking the questions. A good book I read is 'Codependent no more' by Melody Beattie.

You may be surprised that you recognise parts of yourself and your behaviour in other areas of your life.

Worth a try maybe?

Thank you for that and yes I look forward to reading it. I'm ready to break through these strongholds that have obviously affected me in ways I that I have been blind to seeing. Thanks again. 

[mitchell16]

I have read the book co-dependant. It did shed some light. what is amazing is while reading that book I reflected on other past relationship and I could find where I had been co-dependant in those. was it always there? did the relationship wake it up?

[maria1]

Yep! 

That's the gift of the BPD r/s. It needed the BPD relationship to turn that light on or we never get to see it and keep repeating and repeating and repeating. For me I had to be brought to my knees and realise I was totally putting myself aside for this man. It was fine while I thought he cared for me then suddenly I realised he cared more about himself actually and I realised I was wrong!

Welcome to Codependency club 

[recoil]

I think certain "types" of partners bring out codependent issues, unless you're always dating the same "type" of person.

My relationship with my uBPDexgf had me acting very codependent during the later months of the relationship (not the idealization phase).  The relationship I had with my late wife wasn't like that at all.  I wasn't a doormat/co-dependent (not one bit).

In the relationship with my late wife, she was the "people pleaser" between the two of us.  In my BPD relationship, I became the "people pleaser" toward the end.

Interesting twist. 

[maria1]

Codependency doesn't really mean doormat!  There are all sorts of types of codependency too and if you start really looking at it you will be surprised. I first looked at the description on the CODA website and it wasn't me at all.

I am a strong, independent woman. The first description people would say of me is that I don't suffer fools! Nobody would call me a doormat.

Now I think of codependency more in terms of putting others needs first because I never really learned that it's OK to meet my own needs. It actually feels physically uncomfortable for me to do that. Not in everything but in some areas absolutely.

[Reforming]

I have read about co-depency and I don't doubt that it exists. But... .

Historically the classic Co-dependency definition was used to describe partners of alcoholics or drug addicts whose submissive / accepting behaviour enabled or validated their partners destructive behaviour.

More recently codependency has become the great white whale for many failed relationships.

Yet what strikes me when I read the broad spectrum of stories on this site is the large number of NON's who did assert healthy boundaries in other relationships, who were apparently healthy and confident.

Yet over time their boundaries and their self esteem was broken down in a relationship with a BPD.

Is this abnormal? Or does the pathology of BPD make it almost impossible for even healthy, assertive people to maintain healthy boundaries and not get sucked in.

I've read therapists treating BPD have to impose incredibly strict boundaries and a kind of emotional quarantine to protect themselves and stay healthy as well as recovery periods for themselves because exposure to the condition can be so toxic.

When I look around I see many relationships that could easily be defined as "codependent" by the more popular, contemporary definition yet many of the couples involved seem to have happy, long lasting relationships.

I could easily describe my parents relationship as codependent yet they have been happily married for almost 50 years.

Their marriage isn't perfect but it works better than a lot of other marriages around.

It seems me that codependency can be applied far too casually as the root of all evil.

Like many people I had no experience or real understanding of mental illness before I began my relationship with exBPDgf.

I was niaive and innocent. I could not imagine or really understand that someone could be so manipulative or destructive or dysfunctional. And I had no idea how to deal with that behaviour. Like everyone else I have my own issues and baggage but who doesn't? And certainly in the early stages of our relationship I did assert boundaries

The strategies skills list on this site for coping are really helpful but how many people have those skills before they begin a relationship with BPD? How many people would believe that you need to have those skills?

One of the most awful things about mental illness is that so insidious.  Unless you are incredibly self aware and vigilant over time your self esteem and boundaries are gradually eroded and you find yourself accepting behaviour that would have never tolerated from someone before. But until we aren't burnt how many of us expect to have to do this?

As the Russian scientist Pavlov discovered there is something terribly destructive about alternating kindness with cruelty. When he applied this behaviour to dogs he found it bred terrible dependency.

I think the truth is that this abusive cycle can derail strong, confident, healthy people c well the more vulnerable of us.

[Surrender]

I have read about co-depency and I don't doubt that it exists. But... .

One of the most awful things about mental illness is that so insidious.  Unless you are incredibly self aware and vigilant over time your self esteem and boundaries are gradually eroded and you find yourself accepting behaviour that would have never tolerated from someone before. But until we aren't burnt how many of us expect to have to do this?

As the Russian scientist Pavlov discovered there is something terribly destructive about alternating kindness with cruelty. When he applied this behaviour to dogs he found it bred terrible dependency.

I think the truth is that this abusive cycle can derail strong, confident, healthy people c well the more vulnerable of us.

Wow Reforming you hit the nail on the head. I have always been a very strong independent woman and I never had anything like this happen with anyone in my life until my ex-UBPD. Over time every strength within me became eroded like you said, until slowly I disappeared and what was there instead was something akin to Pavlov's experiment with alternating kindness with cruelty producing a defeated shadow of what I was. It was horrifying when I started realizing what I was becoming.

Now I have always been known for my strength and independence as a woman yet with him I found myself behaving like a subjugated woman so battered down that I began to adopt a 'slave' mentality or something similar to the stockholme syndrome. It was really terrifying and at the end there I purposely left and did not stay longer because I knew I had to process these very alarming realizations that were pointing the way to a world of more hurt and my destruction.

Thank you for putting it all so succinctly because it helps me to understand more and more.

[maria1]

Healthy people don't stay in unhealthy relationships. They walk away right at the start. As hard as it is to face that it's true.

I walked away from plenty of relationships before. In fact my other relationships were more codependent in some ways than that with my pwBPD. Yes I agree that interchanging kindness with cruelty is terribly destructive but there is more to it than that. 

And yes codependency is looked at as the answer to a lot of stuff these days but once you see it and really understand you realise it is everywhere

Codependent people are typically strong and independent, in control. They have learned to be that way from a young age. I would argue that codependency is probably entrenched within our generation/ society because of dysfunction we have handed down. Read about it before dismissing it. I didn't see myself there at all for a long time.

[pallavirajsinghani]

Many people who love their BPD significant others continue to stay in the relationship because of their hope that the new found knowledge and skills of communication (Validation, DEARMAN, JADE etc)will improve the relationship. 

With this hope and new knowledge they believe they can initiate positive changes in the relationship.

Sometimes their choice works and sometimes it does not.

[Reforming]

Hi Maria,

If you'll forgive me for saying so but I think this is a little black and white 

Relationships, just like the people involved are nuanced and complex. Inevitably there is an interplay of complex needs and emotions which doesn't just require asserting healthy boundaries. A willingness to negotiate and compromise  is also a key component of any successful relationship. This process is rarely fixed - it's fluid over time and getting the balance right is challenging for two healthy people. When you bring personality disorders or mental illness in general into this picture it becomes immensely difficult especially if you no prior experience of these illnesses.

The point I was trying to make is that I think quite a few dysfunctional relationships evolve over time and the process can be very insidious and deceptive. By the time some people realise what's happening their self esteem and self belief have already taken a serious battering and their ability to assert themselves is drastically undermined. 

There are also other complex issues involved; children etc which make the process of walking away a little less straight forward than you make it sound.

Personality disorders are relatively new field and many psychiatrists / therapists still question their existence.

Unless you've had first hand experience it's difficult to believe let alone understand the kind of behaviour they can produce.

I'm sure, like many others who post here, if I knew more when I began my relationship I would have done things very differently but I didn't... .

And by the time that most NONs (I hate the word) start to dig and find out more they are either heavily involved or trying to make sense of a disastrous conclusion to a traumatic relationship.

I am not suggesting that these relationships don't highlight our own weakness and wounds - I think they do.

I just believe that most people have insecurities and problems and in most instances this doesn't stop them having comparatively happy marriages and relationships.

When I look around at other people's relationships and marriages I see I know very few detached, emotionally self sufficient people yet these relationships have survived and seem to be apparently happy.

I am comfortable spending time on my own and I always have been but also enjoy socialising and meeting people. I made many mistakes in my relationship but at various points  I really tried to assert healthy boundaries. Ultimately I was fighting a losing battle

Co-dependency has become

pallavirajsinghani

I completely appreciate that for various reasons some people chose to try and sustain their relationships with BPT. I understand it and respect while recognising how terrible hard that must be. And I think this is where confronting issues of self worth is crucial. Are you doing this because at some core level you are not really confronting the reality of the situation, you're afraid to walk away because you feel you don't deserve more

Or because you believe at some level that you can save them and yourself and make things better?

[maria1]

If you'll forgive me for saying so but I think this is a little black and white

Relationships, just like the people involved are nuanced and complex. Inevitably there is an interplay of complex needs and emotions which doesn't just require asserting healthy boundaries. A willingness to negotiate and compromise  is also a key component of any successful relationship. This process is rarely fixed - it's fluid over time and getting the balance right is challenging for two healthy people. When you bring personality disorders or mental illness in general into this picture it becomes immensely difficult especially if you no prior experience of these illnesses.

Agreed- I absolutely agree it's way more complex than I've made it sound. I'm trying to make the point that codependency is in us, probably. It's what pulls us toward a relationship with a pwBPD, rather than pushes us away.

And if you add children/ religion/ cultural beliefs in marriage etc in I'm not saying it's straight forward to walk away. I have huge respect for people who stay and work on themselves while doing so.

Boundaries aren't actually to be asserted, except in your mind and in your own actions. They are for you. They are about what you will accept or not accept and where you draw the line. This often gets confused and I still get it confused and folks in staying still get it confused. For example if you follow the staying board you will see people whose BPD partner's cross a boundary, for example sleep with someone else. The 'non' (I hate that word too) thinks that 'asserting' the boundary is saying 'if you do that again I'm going to do X,Y or Z'. Actually the boundary is for the non and if the boundary stays sound the non needs to think about whether they stay in that relationship now the boundary is 'breached'.

This workshop explains it all so much better than I can

https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

I don't actually think we are so far apart in our thinking. I just believe more that codependency exists and that it is all around me. How many times do you hear people frustrated in somebody else's behaviour saying... .  

'If only s/he would just ... .   '

'S/He just needs to... .   '

'I've told him so many times'

'He's really trying, he really is'

Codependency is about focusing on other's problems as a way of avoiding ours. Healing from it is about focusing on our own. It is all we have control of at the end of the day.

I thought I was very strong, I had no trouble ending relationships. But I had no understanding of boundaries. I trained as a mental health nurse. When I trained personality disorders weren't even included in the training because they were thought untreatable. Many health authorities here in the UK are currently trying to exclude them from treatment again because of the demand for resources.

My learning from this site alone has lead me to believe my late brother may have had a personality disorder. More importantly it has helped me see that I had no real understanding of boundaries and I have let people walk all over my very weak ones for all my life. I still do! I have no problem being assertive in most situations with most people but there are certain things I cannot stand up to.

It is all grey. I couldn't cope with NC because I hated the black and white of it. I hated the fact that we understand the terror of abandonment/ engulfment depression and then go NC on our loved ones. I wanted to find a better way to detach.

I believe this site needs people who see the grey. Read, read and read some more. It is all fascinating.

[Reforming]

Hi Maria,

It's interesting to hear your thoughts. I'm trying to make sense of all this myself. To understand how and what happened and why I stayed and accepted behaviour when ultimately I should have left.

I have moments of what feels like clarity where I can suddenly see myself emerge from the fog but it's hard and I don't always like what I see... .

At the end of my relationship I certainly didn't blame everything on my ex BPDGF (layman's diagnosis), in fact I probably went the other way and blamed myself too much which is equally unhealthy.

She had a strong family history of bipolar, her mother and aunts. She was badly sexually abused as young child and when she was about 18 her boyfriend try to kill himself after an altercation with her. He didn't die straight away but was horrifically brain damaged that for the next 5-6 years he was kept alive on life support

I completely understand and agree with idea of taking responsibility for your own behaviour, your own decisions and your own choices.

I think that's crucial to good mental health and happiness though not always easy to achieve.

That idea of personal responsibility, of owning up to and owning your choices rather than blaming them on other people or external events feels right even if it can be uncomfortable.

I just wonder whether the definition and application of codependency has become blurred and used as a one fits all diagnosis for a range of the problems.

It's become the fashionable root of all relationship problems.

I think the majority of people struggle with boundaries in some part of their life. I know I do and did. Towards the end of my relationship I accepted behaviour made miserable and profoundly unhappy. I challenged it but by staying I accepted it.

But since we separated 7 months ago I've made no effort to re-unite or re-initiate contact.

Apart from some financial emails I have pretty much been no contact.

I've struggled and I'm still struggling but I know that NC is the way forward even though at times I still feel overwhelmed with grief and loss

[maria1]

where I can suddenly see myself emerge from the fog but it's hard and I don't always like what I see... .

It is very positive that you have maintained NC.

It may well be that codependency as a concept has become blurred and is over used. For me I realised that I hid in meeting other people's needs because I found it difficult getting my own needs met and I still do. Codependency is defined differently by different therapists and writers. My definition is for me and it helps me.

As a child I wasn't abused. I was pretty much overlooked. I was a stable, clever, pretty, well adjusted child who did well at school, was popular with friends and just got on with stuff. But I never, ever got told I was any of those things by my family. I was never appreciated. I was, well I just was, really. I took myself to and from school from an early age and whenever I needed anything it was just an annoyance really.

I am about to start a therapy group next week. The therapists refuses to classify anybody or work with diagnostic criteria or classification. I like that.

Forget codependency. Focus on the bits of you which you see that you don't like if you want to. That's where my breaking point was with BPD relationship. It was him or me in the end. I chose me. You did too.

[DragoN]

Some really excellent points in this thread, worth to bump it up:

Like many people I had no experience or real understanding of mental illness before I began my relationship with exBPDgf.



I was niaive and innocent. I could not imagine or really understand that someone could be so manipulative or destructive or dysfunctional. And I had no idea how to deal with that behaviour. Like everyone else I have my own issues and baggage but who doesn't? And certainly in the early stages of our relationship I did assert boundaries

The strategies skills list on this site for coping are really helpful but how many people have those skills before they begin a relationship with BPD? How many people would believe that you need to have those skills?

One of the most awful things about mental illness is that so insidious.  Unless you are incredibly self aware and vigilant over time your self esteem and boundaries are gradually eroded and you find yourself accepting behaviour that would have never tolerated from someone before. But until we aren't burnt how many of us expect to have to do this?

As the Russian scientist Pavlov discovered there is something terribly destructive about alternating kindness with cruelty. When he applied this behaviour to dogs he found it bred terrible dependency.

I think the truth is that this abusive cycle can derail strong, confident, healthy people c well the more vulnerable of us.

So true, not knowing what you are dealing with, shocked at the cruelty, the grandiose apologies [ in the beginning, later not]

Worse, is picking up a few fleas.

[Numbers]

Healthy people don't stay in unhealthy relationships. They walk away right at the start. As hard as it is to face that it's true.

Yes, it's hard to face, especially since we have the capacity to look into ourselves. However, I had my share of happy relationships, share of broken hearts, share of walking out. Even one disordered partner. Seen it all. I do not think I was particularly emotionally unhealthy when BPD came into my life.

I wanted to walk out of my BPD relationship after one week. What stopped me was the most heart-wrenching episode of crying I ever saw. It was surreal, a display of such deep agony that I cringe a bit even now as I type this. In retrospect, this was actually one true glimpse into real her.

What made me stay was compassion, not emotional immaturity. I knew nothing about BPD then. I rationalized that it is not about her inner world, just some outside factors that made her life miserable. I can fix that, I thought. Well, you can assume how (and where) next two years of my life went. Only now I realize the truth that it was all a lost cause right after that night at the very beginning - once you become a villain for the first time, there is nothing stopping it after.

Would it be different if I knew the tools I know today? For sure, but only until the first time she would feel hurt by me. Shattering would just be delayed.

In every single of my previous relationships, I was leading and both me and my partners were comfortable. I had an above-average successful life and career. However, some mechanic in BPD relationship eroded me to the point that today I am definitely emotionally unhealthy. Well, this too shall pass.

[goldylamont]

Reforming, THANK YOU for your post! 

I have read about co-depency and I don't doubt that it exists. But... . 

Historically the classic Co-dependency definition was used to describe partners of alcoholics or drug addicts whose submissive / accepting behaviour enabled or validated their partners destructive behaviour.

More recently codependency has become the great white whale for many failed relationships.

Yet what strikes me when I read the broad spectrum of stories on this site is the large number of NON's who did assert healthy boundaries in other relationships, who were apparently healthy and confident.

Yet over time their boundaries and their self esteem was broken down in a relationship with a BPD.

Is this abnormal? Or does the pathology of BPD make it almost impossible for even healthy, assertive people to maintain healthy boundaries and not get sucked in.

I've read therapists treating BPD have to impose incredibly strict boundaries and a kind of emotional quarantine to protect themselves and stay healthy as well as recovery periods for themselves because exposure to the condition can be so toxic.

Exactly--just because you are in a r/s with a BPD doesn't mean you have to go into it with a barrage of co-dependent or FOO issues. I've heard the same thing about therapists treating BPD who have to take extra precautions because of how manipulative and toxic (some) pwBPD can be. In fact I've seen multiple people who have kept in contact with the ex, not even in a r/s but just friends of hers, describe her as toxic or describe themselves as feeling "dirty" by being around her. And none of us would have said this about her when we were still in a r/s--I don't think her girlfriends are codependent to her, i think they are just starting to see a lot of what i saw post breakup for themselves.

It seems me that codependency can be applied far too casually as the root of all evil.

Like many people I had no experience or real understanding of mental illness before I began my relationship with exBPDgf.

I was niaive and innocent. I could not imagine or really understand that someone could be so manipulative or destructive or dysfunctional. And I had no idea how to deal with that behaviour. Like everyone else I have my own issues and baggage but who doesn't? And certainly in the early stages of our relationship I did assert boundaries

This is how I've always felt. I love *all* of the people posting here, but sometimes it's hard to find others who I can identify with like this.

The strategies skills list on this site for coping are really helpful but how many people have those skills before they begin a relationship with BPD? How many people would believe that you need to have those skills?

One of the most awful things about mental illness is that so insidious.  Unless you are incredibly self aware and vigilant over time your self esteem and boundaries are gradually eroded and you find yourself accepting behaviour that would have never tolerated from someone before. But until we aren't burnt how many of us expect to have to do this?

As the Russian scientist Pavlov discovered there is something terribly destructive about alternating kindness with cruelty. When he applied this behaviour to dogs he found it bred terrible dependency.

I think the truth is that this abusive cycle can derail strong, confident, healthy people c well the more vulnerable of us.

agreed. thank you for writing this post Reforming.

[Accepting]

Reforming and Maria thanks for great posts. The more I read about people's experiences with BPD the more the lines blur. I think that without being in contact with BPD or similar in past relationships, no matter the person you are and the skills you bring with you, the impact is has seems to hit like the unexpected and have a mind of it's own. The only reason I can see for it that is positive is that it certainly teaches a lot of lessons in a short period of time. But for me it is certainly one of those things in life that I can't seem to find reason for... .what is it's purpose in the grand scheme of things. Like other terrible things in life, it seems to only serve a purpose of providing sadness to happiness, down to up, unsettled to settled, unhealthy to healthy... .balance... .somehow. It's like the flipside of a healthy mind. You can't have one avenue in life without the other. Seemingly.

[goldylamont]

Healthy people don't stay in unhealthy relationships. They walk away right at the start. As hard as it is to face that it's true.

I walked away from plenty of relationships before. In fact my other relationships were more codependent in some ways than that with my pwBPD. Yes I agree that interchanging kindness with cruelty is terribly destructive but there is more to it than that.

my other r/s weren't more codependent and r/s i've had since haven't been codependent. also i wouldn't characterize my r/s with exBPD as codependent. i did go through a lot, and have come to terms with the fact that she was mentally abusive, but codepencency isn't at the root of my issues from what i can tell. and, i feel the quote (which i've heard a lot here) that "Healthy people don't stay in unhealthy relationships. They walk away right at the start." -- I believe this may be a romantic notion perhaps of some people with codependency issues. Mentally healthy people can be in the fog and just as confused when in this type of r/s--I didn't stay around form multiple infidelities; I didn't stay around for physical abuse and I ended the r/s **before** my boundary of her (or me) cheating occurred (to the best of my knowledge). Still this had a huge affect on me to the same degree as most other nons here (codependent or not). It's a little presumptuous in my opinion when people post these things. maria1 i don't want to single you out on this, it's just that i notice these assumptions being thrown around in a lot of the threads.

[Reforming]

Hi goldylamont,

Thanks for the thanks. It's a while since I wrote this and rereading makes me very aware just how intense the last years has been.

I'm just over 13 months out of a 16 year relationship. I'm in a better place than I was this time last year but I'm also aware that I have got a long way to go.

It's interesting how your both your perspective and your feeling change and evolve over 12 months. I still feel that Co-dependency is used too much as a one fit all diagnosis but I also accept that I had and have my issues.

Even though my ex fits so many criteria at times I still struggle to accept that she is BPD... .

I never left the relationship believing it was all her fault; I realised that if I didn't learn something from the experience, recognise my own mistakes and evolve that I would really have wasted all that time.

But it's incredibly difficult to see your own wounds or weaknesses. Nature encourages us to hide them from everyone, including ourselves.

Anyway I realise that the only way forward and through this mess is face up to myself.

I feel a little like an unwilling convert that is being dragged, kicking and screaming to the river for baptism 

I got some therapy; a half a dozen CBT sessions over the last year to try and help me through the grief and upheaval. It helped but I realise that I need more help so I'm setting up meetings with a selection of Schema therapists.

I can't afford to spend 8 years recovering from a 16 relationship...

Apart from a few financial emails which I've kept brief and polite I've have no contact for the last year.

Then yesterday I got a missed call from her work number. I didn't answer... .

[DragoN]

I feel a little like an unwilling convert that is being dragged, kicking and screaming to the river for baptism  grin

Me too, trial by fire than tossed in the river.