Hardest Symptom

[SadWifeofBPD]

Depending on how your husband treats his family and his history with them, they may know more than they are letting on.  If he is truly BPD, he has probably been so for a long time.

Has he acted this way through your entire marriage?  Do you know at what age he was diagnosed?

Perhaps they are aware something is wrong but do not want to make it their problem by recognizing that he is sick.

H was a VERY difficult child, but his family's memory seems to have faded about that.  For nearly 22 years, H has had little-to-no contact with his family, so it does seem like they have forgotten.   About 7 years ago, he began contacting them on and off (when he had painted me black) to tell them that I had been unfaithful, etc).  This set theiir minds to hate me. 

Their words to him suggest that they believe everything he says.   

[KellyO]

Did any of you experience  this: You are asked what you want (to do, to eat, have, whatever... . ) and you tell. Your PD gets angry because you gave wrong answer! You were expected to know what PD wants and want the same thing too, but of course PD never told what they wanted. So now you are selfish and unloving and care only about yourself. They are nice people because they definitely asked what you want, so how could THEY be selfish?

I never found out way to cope with that. It was just always a brain-bleed moment for me. It's like... . can't they see that other people are separated from them and do not read minds?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Did any of you experience  this: You are asked what you want (to do, to eat, have, whatever... . ) and you tell. Your PD gets angry because you gave wrong answer! You were expected to know what PD wants and want the same thing too, but of course PD never told what they wanted. So now you are selfish and unloving and care only about yourself. They are nice people because they definitely asked what you want, so how could THEY be selfish?

I never found out way to cope with that. It was just always a brain-bleed moment for me. It's like... . can't they see that other people are separated from them and do not read minds?

I haven't experienced that, but this was common for me... .

H RARELY ever suggested doing/going anywhere unless it was a golfing for him.  So, it was always up to me to get "something going" (vacatiion, going to the movies, etc).   I would ask him if X vacation destination was ok, and he'd say, "yes."  I'd ask him if there was anything particular he wanted to do there, and he'd say "plan it."  Then I'd look up site-seeing locations, etc, and plan the intinerary.  I would frequently bring him the print out of what I had planned and request that he "look it over" and provide input or change requests.  He would typically throw the papers aside and say that he'd look at them later.  I would later repeat the request and get the same answer. Then the trip would come and he'd complain that I controlled the whole trip!

[MammaMia]

qwaszx

You are absolutely right.  The suicide threats and disappearing are #1  on the "torture list" without a doubt.  Everything else pales in comparison.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Has he acted this way through your entire marriage?  Do you know at what age he was diagnosed?

At the beginning of our relationship, there were some odd "red flags", but they weren't frequent enough for me to realize the seriousness.  

After we were married and living together, conflicts appeared more frequently, but still not like they've occurred the last 5-10 years.   The last 6 years and the last 2 years have been ridiculous.  

Sometime around 10 years ago, H became an alcoholic which made things worse.  About 5 years ago, his drinking got worse.  Within the last 2 years it's gotten much worse.  He went to rehab last fall for a couple of months, but started drinking again soon after.  

We've been living apart for a couple of months now.  He claims that he hasn't drank at all for about a month (of course he claims that being away from me is the reason he's sober.  )

As for his diagnosis... . While in rehab for 2 months, his psychiatrist (wrongly) Dx'd him with Dependent PD because during that time he portrayed himself as this poor little lamb, the nicest guy in the world, who has been so mistreated and controlled by his cruel evil wife.     When my sister (a T) saw the written Dx, she immediately said that they Dx is wrong (sister has known H for 30 years and has spent a gazillion hours with us and has witnessed his rages.     Up until that Dx, my sister had been politely hesitant to mention what is wrong with H.  but once the "jig was up" and he'd been Dx'd Axis II, sister said that he has BPD with some NPD traits.   She said that the psychiatrist made a common mistake because the P had only seen H for a few weeks (but Axis II came thru loud and clear) and that the P was completely unaware of H's rages.   A critical difference between BPD and DPD is the anger/rages and H "hid" those symptoms from the P (since he only saw the P for such a short time).  

[KellyO]

H RARELY ever suggested doing/going anywhere unless it was a golfing for him.  So, it was always up to me to get "something going" (vacatiion, going to the movies, etc).   I would ask him if X vacation destination was ok, and he'd say, "yes."  I'd ask him if there was anything particular he wanted to do there, and he'd say "plan it."  Then I'd look up site-seeing locations, etc, and plan the intinerary.  I would frequently bring him the print out of what I had planned and request that he "look it over" and provide input or change requests.  He would typically throw the papers aside and say that he'd look at them later.  I would later repeat the request and get the same answer. Then the trip would come and he'd complain that I controlled the whole trip!

This is subconsiousness in work = they are making sure these situations where they can blame others from being controlling, selfish, unloving, you name it, come up and are frequent. In this example he overlooking everything you try to make him see gives him what he wants: he can feel himself controlled and he can blaim you. If this would be one time with a person, it could be accident, but this is a pattern, right?.  I was expert in this myself, doing passive-aggressive stunts like this in my life! Yep, codependents are not sunshines either.

If you would tell him he does this, he would go in fullblown rage or whatever he does to make the situtation go away, and would never admit he has done anything wrong. You could have tried harder, he says! When people do this it is subconsious, but they really do it. They make sure they get the situations that reinforce their view, their believes, their twisted logic. You see you did try all you can to make him contribute, he has wiped it out from his mind because it serves his purpose: feeling being controlled. He does feel controlled, it is true. It is totally unvisible to him that he made the situation from thin air to serve his need to fight against "controlling you", and to mask the thruth about himself.

[VeryFree]

This is subconsiousness in work = they are making sure these situations where they can blame others from being controlling, selfish, unloving, you name it, come up and are frequent.

Just a daily ritual with my stbxBPDw:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: Okay, let's make xyz.

She: Oh, but we have abc in the fridge and we should use that.

Me: Okay, but why ask me?

She: ... .

Day 2:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: Do we have something in the house that should be used now?

She: No, not really.

Me: Okay, let's make xyz.

She: Oh, I'd rather make abc.

Me: Okay, but why ask me, why don't answer to my first question?

She: ... .

Day 3:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: I really don't care either, why don't you propose something?

She: I allways have to figure out what to do for dinner. You never think along, you're just blablabla... . and there would be no dinner.

[empathic]

Just a daily ritual with my stbxBPDw:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: Okay, let's make xyz.

She: Oh, but we have abc in the fridge and we should use that.

Me: Okay, but why ask me?

She: ... .

Yes, I got this a lot also. I guess they get some kick out of power and control, getting to be the one who decides. The one who expresses a desire first "loses".

I think I heard somewhere that as a negotiation strategy you should never make a first offer (like when discussing salary etc) because the one who goes second always gets the upper hand.

In my case, I try to distinguish what is her BPD traits and what is the effects of her growing up with an NPD brother (eventhough I really shouldn't have to care about that). In this case, it might be the effects of growing up in a household where nobody respected your wishes - i.e. she had to grab what she wanted (but it doesn't make it any easier on me).

[VeryFree]

Yes, I got this a lot also. I guess they get some kick out of power and control, getting to be the one who decides. The one who expresses a desire first "loses".

I think I heard somewhere that as a negotiation strategy you should never make a first offer (like when discussing salary etc) because the one who goes second always gets the upper hand.

That sounds true.

Negotiating often is about reason and about trying to come to a mutual understanding. Two things that are hard for a a BPD.

I saw it in trying for a settlement: did a very good offer, she refused and made a ridiculous counteroffer. I refused, but adapted my offer so it would be closer to her demands. Again she refused and demanded even more.

No reason, not wanting to come to solutions, just controling.

[aviator7]

1.  :)enial - I would bring up concerns (whether about his daughter, mom, his behavior or thought process, etc... . ) and give factual, valid, points and he would make excuses and say that I was "crazy" for saying any of it and then would lead to... .

2.  Projection - HE would tell me: "you have anger issues, a christian wouldn't say those things, you hate my mom, you say mean things about my daughter, you are unaccountable, you are always the victim", which leads to... .

3.  Splitting - then he would bring up everything from the starting point of our relationship on as validation to demonize me as I was such a crazy, hateful person... .

4. Push/Pull - I guess in the onset it was extremely devastating and confusing, after a while I became used to it, but it still was degrading and made me feel invisible, disrespected, and devalued

[SadWifeofBPD]

H RARELY ever suggested doing/going anywhere unless it was a golfing for him.  So, it was always up to me to get "something going" (vacatiion, going to the movies, etc).   I would ask him if X vacation destination was ok, and he'd say, "yes."  I'd ask him if there was anything particular he wanted to do there, and he'd say "plan it."  Then I'd look up site-seeing locations, etc, and plan the intinerary.  I would frequently bring him the print out of what I had planned and request that he "look it over" and provide input or change requests.  He would typically throw the papers aside and say that he'd look at them later.  I would later repeat the request and get the same answer. Then the trip would come and he'd complain that I controlled the whole trip!

This is subconsiousness in work = they are making sure these situations where they can blame others from being controlling, selfish, unloving, you name it, come up and are frequent. In this example he overlooking everything you try to make him see gives him what he wants: he can feel himself controlled and he can blaim you. If this would be one time with a person, it could be accident, but this is a pattern, right?.  I was expert in this myself, doing passive-aggressive stunts like this in my life! Yep, codependents are not sunshines either.

If you would tell him he does this, he would go in fullblown rage or whatever he does to make the situtation go away, and would never admit he has done anything wrong. You could have tried harder, he says! When people do this it is subconsious, but they really do it. They make sure they get the situations that reinforce their view, their believes, their twisted logic. You see you did try all you can to make him contribute, he has wiped it out from his mind because it serves his purpose: feeling being controlled. He does feel controlled, it is true. It is totally unvisible to him that he made the situation from thin air to serve his need to fight against "controlling you", and to mask the thruth about himself.

I think you've nailed it.

I also think that my H never planned things because then if anything went wrong, he could say, "well, you planned this. you screwed up.  I would have done things differently".

I do think it's telling that he only plans things for himself (golf outings, trips to the gym, etc).  When the kids were young, he never suggested any kind of family outings.   

I also think that golfing serves some kind of release for him.  H has a very powerful long drive.  So powerful that people will watch him.  I now suspect that the power behind his drives is from his anger. 

[MammaMia]

I agree with all of you that control is key.  PwBPD never want advice.  They ask for it and then immediately counter with their own suggestions.  If WE make the decision, it is always the dumbest suggestion ever.  What are we... . morons?

The other thing that drives me nuts is when it is impossible to get a simple  answer.  Ask a question... . any question, even a yes or no question, and the reply is "I don't know" followed by rage if questioned further.

I have also learned that if they do make a decision, they will change their minds at least 3 times.  The first decision is rarely, if ever, what they really want. Sometimes they circle back and claim our suggestion as their own.  When that happens, I just say "great idea, why didn't I think of that?"... . (?).  So predictable.

It is a no win situation... . just one of so many with BPD.

[VeryFree]

The other thing that drives me nuts is when it is impossible to get a simple  answer.  Ask a question... . any question, even a yes or no question, and the reply is "I don't know" followed by rage if questioned further.

In my experience questions, simple and more complicated, almost always were answered with a question. Never just a straight answer, always a counter-question.

[SadWifeofBPD]

PwBPD never want advice. 

My H would ask for advice, and as long as my advice didn't involve something that he was doing wrong or should be doing, he was fine with it.  However, if my advice meant that he had to change a behavior or something like that, he'd get mad.   

For instance, if he took his Adderall late in the day along with caffeine and then complain that he couldn't get to sleep that night, if I said, "well, you shouldn't take Adderall in the afternoon," he'd get very angry for "blaming him" when he wanted to believe that he was just having "bad luck".   H always wants to believe that "the world is "$h1t*** on him," and none of it is his fault.  In truth, he sabotaged himself on a daily basis.

[VeryFree]

So true SadWife.

The problems in my stbx's life always were because of others: her boss, her mother, a T, a neighbour, friends, me.

In 10 years she never has said once something was her own fault.

[SadWifeofBPD]

So true SadWife.

The problems in my stbx's life always were because of others: her boss, her mother, a T, a neighbour, friends, me.

In 10 years she never has said once something was her own fault.

The only things that H has ever said were his fault were things that either weren't a big deal or there was no way he could blame someone else.  However, if there was any possible way he could blame someone else, he would.


There is one other thing that is so difficult with being with a pwBPD... .   A normal person understands that relationships have "good times" and "bad times".  They understand that marriages have "ups" and "downs".     Although my H would never admit it, his behavior/reactions indicated that he thought that a "good" relationship only has "good times".   Any "bad times" were a sign to him that the relationship shouldn't exist anymore and should end.  And when he felt that way, he didn't have the maturity to understand that his feelings of the moment would pass.  Instead he believed that the feeling of that moment was permanent and wouldn't change.  And, everytime his feelings did change, he acted "surprised" and would say, "I didn't believe that I would feel differently"  (and he never learned from these changes of mindset that would happen year after year after year.)   

[waverider]

H RARELY ever suggested doing/going anywhere unless it was a golfing for him.  So, it was always up to me to get "something going" (vacatiion, going to the movies, etc).   I would ask him if X vacation destination was ok, and he'd say, "yes."  I'd ask him if there was anything particular he wanted to do there, and he'd say "plan it."  Then I'd look up site-seeing locations, etc, and plan the intinerary.  I would frequently bring him the print out of what I had planned and request that he "look it over" and provide input or change requests.  He would typically throw the papers aside and say that he'd look at them later.  I would later repeat the request and get the same answer. Then the trip would come and he'd complain that I controlled the whole trip!

This is subconsiousness in work = they are making sure these situations where they can blame others from being controlling, selfish, unloving, you name it, come up and are frequent. In this example he overlooking everything you try to make him see gives him what he wants: he can feel himself controlled and he can blaim you. If this would be one time with a person, it could be accident, but this is a pattern, right?.  I was expert in this myself, doing passive-aggressive stunts like this in my life! Yep, codependents are not sunshines either.

If you would tell him he does this, he would go in fullblown rage or whatever he does to make the situtation go away, and would never admit he has done anything wrong. You could have tried harder, he says! When people do this it is subconsious, but they really do it. They make sure they get the situations that reinforce their view, their believes, their twisted logic. You see you did try all you can to make him contribute, he has wiped it out from his mind because it serves his purpose: feeling being controlled. He does feel controlled, it is true. It is totally unvisible to him that he made the situation from thin air to serve his need to fight against "controlling you", and to mask the thruth about himself.

I think you've nailed it.

I also think that my H never planned things because then if anything went wrong, he could say, "well, you planned this. you screwed up.  I would have done things differently".

I do think it's telling that he only plans things for himself (golf outings, trips to the gym, etc).  When the kids were young, he never suggested any kind of family outings.   

I also think that golfing serves some kind of release for him.  H has a very powerful long drive.  So powerful that people will watch him.  I now suspect that the power behind his drives is from his anger. 

I think what you have here is behavior they cant change, but they need validation, as we all do. In order to validate themselves they subconciously create situations that provide it

eg. They have a fear of being controlled. They cant overcome that fear. If you are not actually controlling them, they will create a scenario that will enable them to show that you are, hence validating their fear. So that fear is justified and not their fault.

[waverider]

So true SadWife.

The problems in my stbx's life always were because of others: her boss, her mother, a T, a neighbour, friends, me.

In 10 years she never has said once something was her own fault.

The only things that H has ever said were his fault were things that either weren't a big deal or there was no way he could blame someone else.  However, if there was any possible way he could blame someone else, he would.


There is one other thing that is so difficult with being with a pwBPD... .   A normal person understands that relationships have "good times" and "bad times".  They understand that marriages have "ups" and "downs".     Although my H would never admit it, his behavior/reactions indicated that he thought that a "good" relationship only has "good times".   Any "bad times" were a sign to him that the relationship shouldn't exist anymore and should end.  And when he felt that way, he didn't have the maturity to understand that his feelings of the moment would pass.  Instead he believed that the feeling of that moment was permanent and wouldn't change.  And, everytime his feelings did change, he acted "surprised" and would say, "I didn't believe that I would feel differently"  (and he never learned from these changes of mindset that would happen year after year after year.)   

This is a kind of stuck in the mood of moment issue. How they feel now is how they always have and always will be. They cant seem to acknowledge their own extreme cycling mood changes. So if things are bad extreme depression can set in as it all becomes pointless there is no good future round the corner. I think this is the thinking that can create suicidal thoughts. when things are good over optimistic impossible plans and promises are made.

The other aspect this has is they revise history to validate how they feel now. So recollections are inconsistent. Also plans/ future projections change based on the now. Plans are made then broken as the mood changes. This creates a lack of productivity, and hence low sense of achievement/ self worth.

[waverider]

PwBPD never want advice. 

My H would ask for advice, and as long as my advice didn't involve something that he was doing wrong or should be doing, he was fine with it.  However, if my advice meant that he had to change a behavior or something like that, he'd get mad.   

For instance, if he took his Adderall late in the day along with caffeine and then complain that he couldn't get to sleep that night, if I said, "well, you shouldn't take Adderall in the afternoon," he'd get very angry for "blaming him" when he wanted to believe that he was just having "bad luck".   H always wants to believe that "the world is "$h1t*** on him," and none of it is his fault.  In truth, he sabotaged himself on a daily basis.

Not really asking for advice, only validation for their own decisions.

I get this all the time. This is where the use of SET comes into its best use.

It is one of the easiest traps to fall into though.

[SadWifeofBPD]

PwBPD never want advice. 

My H would ask for advice, and as long as my advice didn't involve something that he was doing wrong or should be doing, he was fine with it.  However, if my advice meant that he had to change a behavior or something like that, he'd get mad.   

For instance, if he took his Adderall late in the day along with caffeine and then complain that he couldn't get to sleep that night, if I said, "well, you shouldn't take Adderall in the afternoon," he'd get very angry for "blaming him" when he wanted to believe that he was just having "bad luck".   H always wants to believe that "the world is "$h1t*** on him," and none of it is his fault.  In truth, he sabotaged himself on a daily basis.

Not really asking for advice, only validation for their own decisions.

I get this all the time. This is where the use of SET comes into its best use.

It is one of the easiest traps to fall into though.

Right. 

So, what would be the correct SET response be?

[qwaszx]

This is subconsiousness in work = they are making sure these situations where they can blame others from being controlling, selfish, unloving, you name it, come up and are frequent.

Just a daily ritual with my stbxBPDw:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: Okay, let's make xyz.

She: Oh, but we have abc in the fridge and we should use that.

Me: Okay, but why ask me?

She: ... .

Day 2:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: Do we have something in the house that should be used now?

She: No, not really.

Me: Okay, let's make xyz.

She: Oh, I'd rather make abc.

Me: Okay, but why ask me, why don't answer to my first question?

She: ... .

Day 3:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: I really don't care either, why don't you propose something?

She: I allways have to figure out what to do for dinner. You never think along, you're just blablabla... . and there would be no dinner.

yeah, that's me and my friend also

Her: wanta watch a moive?

Me: alright, what one? you pick.

Her: you can pick this time:)

Me: *goes to the movie rack and brings back one or two I'd like* ok how about one of these?

Her: no, im not in the mood for those ones.

Me: ok, it doesn't really matter to me, what are you in the mood for then? you pick.

Her: ok, well lets watch this one

Me: alright:)  well then why do you ask me?

or

Her: wanta watch a movie?

Me: ok, you pick

Her: you can this time

Me:  *goes to the movie rack and brings back one or two I'd like* ok how about one of these?

Her: no, im not in the mood for those ones but you can watch one of those if you'd like, I'm going to bed

Me: ummm, well I don't care what we watch, you can pick, or aww I don't want you to feel like you have to leave cuz we don't want to watch the same movie, it doesn't really matter to me.

Her: no, im tired anyways, this way you can watch what you want and I can watch what I want:)

Me: O.o but its only 530... .

Her: yeah your right it is, *goes to bed*

[BlushAndBashful]

I think I changed my mind on the hardest symptom.

BESIDES all the stuff I had written down (lying, compartmentalization, etc) and random goodies I've thought about (circular arguments)... . I think the thing that kept me struggling was that he is SO high functioning and rages inward. Everything is extremely covert and hidden and done behind my back. He never raged. He rarely was caught painting me black. He was well liked in the community. Stuff would bug me, but I didn't know why. I thought I was a bad communicator, or I said something wrong, or I was going crazy. The extremely subtle abuse was like walking through a cobweb and feeling it cling to your face - you could feel it, but you couldn't see it or pinpoint it, you couldn't remove it, and after a while you think you are imagining it.  I never thought he had a problem. I'd like to think I would have run like a bat out of hell if he would have shown me 1% of the craziness.  It's also been hard trying to heal, because a lot on this forum focuses on all these red flags we supposedly chose to ignore and why we were attracted to our pwBPD's dysfunction. Hell, I would have never put the word "dysfunction" and my ex in the same sentence- at least for the first few years.

[leftbehind]

Cheating, Lying, push/pull, and detachment after intimacy.  All suck bad.

[waverider]

PwBPD never want advice.

My H would ask for advice, and as long as my advice didn't involve something that he was doing wrong or should be doing, he was fine with it.  However, if my advice meant that he had to change a behavior or something like that, he'd get mad.  

For instance, if he took his Adderall late in the day along with caffeine and then complain that he couldn't get to sleep that night, if I said, "well, you shouldn't take Adderall in the afternoon," he'd get very angry for "blaming him" when he wanted to believe that he was just having "bad luck".   H always wants to believe that "the world is "$h1t*** on him," and none of it is his fault.  In truth, he sabotaged himself on a daily basis.

Not really asking for advice, only validation for their own decisions.

I get this all the time. This is where the use of SET comes into its best use.

It is one of the easiest traps to fall into though.

Right.  

So, what would be the correct SET response be?

Listen to what they want to do, let them explain why they want to do what they want to do. Agree that is one option they can take to do whatever is they want to do (S&E). As that is the validation they where after in the first place. You are neither agreeing or disagreeing whether it is a good option, just acknowledging that it is an option

The truth part is not about telling them what they should or shouldn't do but rather how you might consider doing things if it was you in that position. In this instance it would be along the lines of "if I took those things late in the day I probably would have difficulty sleeping, but that's me".

You are not saying what they should do, but rather what you wouldn't do. Make it about you not them.

They may well say, well "I'm me, not you". Thats fair enough, you still cant make them do anything, but neither can you be accused of telling them what to do, but you have aired the option, in a non controlling way. Assuming of course its not all said in a patronizing tone.

Not saying it will work, often nothing works, but the odds are better than falling for the trap of "I think you should do XYZ"

[SadWifeofBPD]

PwBPD never want advice.

My H would ask for advice, and as long as my advice didn't involve something that he was doing wrong or should be doing, he was fine with it.  However, if my advice meant that he had to change a behavior or something like that, he'd get mad.  

For instance, if he took his Adderall late in the day along with caffeine and then complain that he couldn't get to sleep that night, if I said, "well, you shouldn't take Adderall in the afternoon," he'd get very angry for "blaming him" when he wanted to believe that he was just having "bad luck".   H always wants to believe that "the world is "$h1t*** on him," and none of it is his fault.  In truth, he sabotaged himself on a daily basis.

Not really asking for advice, only validation for their own decisions.

I get this all the time. This is where the use of SET comes into its best use.

It is one of the easiest traps to fall into though.

Right.  

So, what would be the correct SET response be?

Listen to what they want to do, let them explain why they want to do what they want to do. Agree that is one option they can take to do whatever is they want to do (S&E). As that is the validation they where after in the first place.

You are neither agreeing or disagreeing whether it is a good option, just acknowledging that it is an option

The truth part is not about telling them what they should or shouldn't do but rather how you might consider doing things if it was you in that position. In this instance it would be along the lines of "if I took those things late in the day I probably would have difficulty sleeping, but that's me".

You are not saying what they should do, but rather what you wouldn't do. Make it about you not them.

They may well say, well "I'm me, not you". Thats fair enough, you still cant make them do anything, but neither can you be accused of telling them what to do, but you have aired the option, in a non controlling way. Assuming of course its not all said in a patronizing tone.

Not saying it will work, often nothing works, but the odds are better than falling for the trap of "I think you should do XYZ"

You are neither agreeing or disagreeing whether it is a good option, just acknowledging that it is an option

Yes, I've done that.  And, later when there's a bad result, I get blamed because he told me his plan, and the fact that I didn't suggest something better, means that the bad result is MY fault.

Often, H isn't really asking for advice, he's just whining that "I'm doing everything right, but I'm still (tired, painful muscles, hip hurts, etc)".   H loves to say, "I'm doing everything right, but (insert complaint here)."   But, the truth is he's doing plenty of things wrong:  drinking too much, taking his meds wrong, working-out too much so muscles hurt, going to bed too late, etc.  Yet, he's whining that he's "done everything right, but the world is $hitting on him."   In good conscience, I can't agree with him that he's done everything right, since he's likely done at least 2-3 things wrong that contributed to his tiredness, painful muscles, etc.   If I say nothing, that also ANNOYS him.  He wants me to say something like, "Yes, the world picks on you.  You're doing everything perfectly.  For some reason, things work out for others, but the world hates you so it makes your life miserable."    I just can't do that. 

[waverider]

You cant reassure and fix everything, only state things in the least provocative way.

How they take it is their problem.

The fact that YOU know you haven't provoked anything, been disrespecting, or invalidating, means you have done your best. So YOU can absolve yourself of responsibility or guilt.

This comes back to Radical acceptance, accepting you cant fix all their issues, that their issues are ultimately their responsibility, that is the disorder. You did your bit, you didn't make it any worse. It is what it is. You are not left thinking what else can i do, because you did it.

If it escalates you disengage or even leave the vicinity if you have to, its no longer your problem.

After you have used SET you do not have the obligation to be the eternal rescuer. It is about YOU knowing what the right thing to do is, not trying to conform to what they think is the right thing... . That is the path towards the proverbial eggshells.

My partner is a self destructive hypochondriac so I do know where you are coming from, and that you cannot ever appease them. It is hard to pull back and watch them screw their lives up unnecessarily, but that is ultimately their choice, frustrating as it is.

Their mind is disordered, mine is not, so their perceptions cannot override mine. I will not give in to any resultant attempts at a guilt trip

[SadWifeofBPD]

You cant reassure and fix everything, only state things in the least provocative way.

Very true.  My sister, a T, has observed many of these situations.  She has concluded that H thinks I'm "all-powerful, all-knowing, and can control the behavior of others/events" so if anything goes wrong, it's my fault.  H has even raged at me when other adults make other choices (vacation times, etc), as if I can "make" another family change/cancel their vacation plans because their schedule negatively affects him/us?  

For many years, I thought it was a compliment when H would say things like, "that's why I married you" whenever I did something smart, clever, money-saving, etc.  What I didn't realize that it was very literally true, he married me because he thought I was perfect and could do all, know all, fix all, etc.  So, when I'm human (imperfect, can't control others, etc), then I've FAILED.  

H's mother did the most minimum for her children.  My own T believes that H's mom had NPD.   I guess he picked me as some kind of mother-replacement, which he believes should be able to "do it all" and always perfectly.

I just don't know how to do/say things in a less-provacative way.  I often feel like I can't win either way.  I'm accused of saying too much, saying too little, appearing distant, appearing controlling, etc. 

[waverider]

Doesn't matter what you are accused of, as long as you have the insight and objectivity to take it on board, see for yourself if there is any merit in it and take it for what it is.

I rarely dismiss my partners opinions on face value assuming them to be faulty, as there is often a grain of truth. That is why they can be so convincing as they do often contain an element of truth it's just the application of "their" truths that faulty

You could say my partner has forced me to take a good look at myself and not get away with a lot of stuff regular folks would let slide.

Using the S & E part has taught me a lot, whereas previously I would have arrogantly outright dismissed their issues as silly.

We are not always right.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Doesn't matter what you are accused of, as long as you have the insight and objectivity to take it on board, see for yourself if there is any merit in it and take it for what it is.

I agree.  And, if there is a "grain of truth" or more than a grain of truth, I certainly repect that and admit it.  Of course we're not always right.  We're human and make mistakes.  The problem is when a mistake is just a human "boo boo" and not intentional, the pwBBD will accuse you of doing it "on purpose."   I once called my H while he was on a business trip and forgot about the "2 hour time change" and woke him up.  It was an innocent mistake and I quickly apologized.  No, that wasn't good enough.  I had committed the huge sin of waking him up.  And, he kept accusing me of doing it "on purpose."  So, yes, there was a "grain of truth" that I had woke him up (which I apologized for), but it wasn't done on purpose!

More to the point, when the "punishment" (raging) doesn't fit the "crime", then that becomes a problem.  A minor "oops" shouldn't warrant raging and 3 days of the silent treatment (because that breeds "walking on eggshells".   Or when there isn't any grain of truth, but only the pwBPD's insecurities going on so raging ensues, then that becomes a problem. 

[MammaMia]

Reading all the posts about circular arguments reminds me that we are all in the same boat.  AND it has a hole in the bottom.  Sometimes we can bail fast enough to stay afloat and sometimes we start to sink.  

I have found there is no hard and fast rule with circular arguments.  What works on one occasion may not work the next.  Everything depends on how THEY react... . how upset they are, what the topic is, how many times the same argument has been revisited, what has been tried in the past to resolve issues, etc.  The list goes on and on.  It is all about them.  Even when they dismiss our solicited point of view or suggestion as to what we would do, even when we commisurate and validate, even when we praise them for coming up with a solution on their own, there is no guarantee they will follow through.  Sometimes they will do the exact opposite.

While they often reject our attempts to help, it gives them things to think about, and I believe they do consider all the options.  They want our input but find it condescending and patronizing at the same time.  They need to be in control.

The long and short of it is that there is no hard and fast rule on how to deal with circular arguments.  Often the topic of the argument is not the real issue at all.  They want us to know how they FEEL.  They want to vent and they need us to just listen.  

Circular arguments are exhausting but they can be productive if we invest the time and effort to find out what they are really about.