The hidden conflict in my relationship

[SadWifeofBPD]

I always thought that PA behavior was supposed to be rather hidden, not blatant.  Such as doing a chore poorly and pretending that's the best you can do - so you're not expected to do that again.  Or pretending that you "forgot" to do a certain chore or favor.  Or pretending that you're too tired for sex.  Or doing something hidden, behind the other person's back and hoping that they won't find out - such as breaking something or throwing something away without telling. 

[Abigail]

Here are the official criteria (when it was considered a separate personality disorder) from the DMV:

A.   A pervasive pattern of negativistic attitudes and passive resistance to demands for adequate performance, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

1.   passively resists fulfilling routine social and occupational tasks

2.   complains of being misunderstood and unappreciated by others

3.   is sullen and argumentative

4.   unreasonably criticizes and scorns authority

5.   expresses envy and resentment toward those apparently more fortunate

6.   voices exaggerated and persistent complaints of personal misfortune

7.   alternates between hostile defiance and contrition

B.   Does not occur exclusively during major depressive episodes and is not better accounted for by dysthymic disorder

My husband had rages but he also displayed a lot of passive aggressive traits as well.  He would play the "victim role" where it was never his fault--he blamed everyone else.  When I would make various helpful suggestions, he had an excuse for every single one.  For example, I had suggested he get help for and learn about his BPD.  I suggested going for therapy, reading a book, listening to an audio tape, watching a video, talking to a counselor at my church, joining a men's group at our church or a support group, and so forth.  He would say he didn't like to read, he was uncomfortable around people he didn't know, he preferred talking to a person rather than watching a video (yet note he also said he was uncomfortable around people he didn't know--a therapist, men's group or people in a support group).  The more suggestions I gave, the more excuses he had.

Passive-aggressive traits can include sulking, giving the "cold shoulder" where he won't talk to you, being argumentative, oppositional, displays hostility masquerading as jokes, saying he will do something but then never does it or he was going to do it but (insert excuse here) something prevented him from doing it.

In my opinion, it sounds like the adult counterpart to "oppositional defiant disorder" that sometimes accompanies childhood ADHD.

[SadWifeofBPD]

displays hostility masquerading as jokes, saying he will do something but then never does it

I never thought about the hostility maquerading as jokes, but I can see that would true.  The saying someting mean, and then saying, "I was only joking." 

The saying that he will do something but never doing it, can be PA.  I can see that.  However, I thought that when H was doing that he was making himself feel good by saying he was going to this or that (because he liked to fool himself into thinking that he "does stuff". I thought it was part of his false sense of self. He often would flatter himself by saying outrageous things about himself, like, "I could have been a pro baseball player." or " I could have been a professional stunt person."

I do agree that sometimes a person will agree that he's going to do someting (in order to stop the nagging), but they have no intention of actually doing the requested action.  So, I can see that would be PA.

[SadWifeofBPD]

In my opinion, it sounds like the adult counterpart to "oppositional defiant disorder" that sometimes accompanies childhood ADHD.

Hmmm... .   interesting.  I've never heard of that disorder, so I looked it up.

I can see what you mean.  but not sure if those are PA or just outright defiance.  

It seems (to me) to be a child-version of BPD.

 from the Mayo Clinic website:

Your child may be displaying signs of ODD instead of normal moodiness if the behaviors:

Are persistent

Have lasted at least six months

Are clearly disruptive to the family and home or school environment

The following are behaviors associated with ODD:

Negativity

Defiance

Disobedience

Hostility directed toward authority figures

These behaviors might cause your child to regularly and consistently:

Have temper tantrums

Be argumentative with adults

Refuse to comply with adult requests or rules

Annoy other people deliberately

Blames others for mistakes or misbehavior

Acts touchy and is easily annoyed

Feel anger and resentment

Be spiteful or vindictive

Act aggressively toward peers

Have difficulty maintaining friendships

Have academic problems

Feel a lack of self-esteem

In addition, your child isn't likely to see his or her behavior as defiant. Instead, your child will probably believe that unreasonable demands are being placed on him or her.

Related mental health issues

Oppositional defiant disorder often occurs along with other behavioral or mental health problems such as:

Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)

Anxiety

Depression

The symptoms of ODD may be difficult to distinguish from those of other behavioral or mental health problems.


Causes

There's no known clear cause of oppositional defiant disorder. Contributing causes may be a combination of inherited and environmental factors, including:

A child's natural disposition

Limitations or developmental delays in a child's ability to process thoughts and feelings

Lack of supervision

Inconsistent or harsh discipline

Abuse or neglect

An imbalance of certain brain chemicals, such as serotonin

[Louise7777]

Hey girls, thanks for posting about this issue in particular.

I have been the "target" of silent treatment and PA behaviour in general , but from a non-BPD (as far as I know!).

The insights were great, I really never thought abt ADHD... .   But it hit me to read its a child-version of BPD... .   LOL.

I never saw the rages, but I felt theres some vindictive behaviour there... .   Once, this person told me sorry for making me frustrated... . Thats exactly how I felt but never said that word... . So I realized it was on purpose, all the feet-dragging was designed to make me frustrated and angry, it was not a coincidence.

The main problem is I felt full of resentment and I really dont want to be that person. How did you deal with it? Any advice?

Thank you so much!  

[SadWifeofBPD]

The main problem is I felt full of resentment and I really dont want to be that person. How did you deal with it? Any advice?

I really don't know. I do have resentment.  I resent that we can't be like other healthy couples.  I resent that I've been smeared to people who don't really have the ability to know better.

The "silent treatment" is really awful. Don't get me wrong, I understand that when anyone is angry, they may want to "get away" and not talk to that person while they calm down.  I'm not sure if that is the "silent treatment."   What I don't like is when it goes on for days/weeks, and there's this exaggerated behavior, such as making exaggerated walking movements so as to not have to walk by me.  Seriously, H will "jump back" or "jump aside" as if being within a couple of feet of me is intolerable.  Very childish behavior.  Then, when H has something that he really wants me to know, but he won't "break" the silent treatment, he'll wait til someone else is around so he can then "tell" that person so that I'll overhear the message.  Once I realized that's what he was doing, I would walk out of the room, to thwart this ridiculous manipulation.  He couldn't get mad at that (at least outwardly) because what could he say? 

Sometimes (and this was probably wrong), I will end the silent treatment by snuggling up with H right before he wakes up. That often works, but sometimes it doesn't work at all.  Sometimes it makes him angry.   But, even when it does work to move me from black to white, H then believes that I'm admitting that I was wrong (not!) and he'll loudly state that if I hadn't made the first move, he NEVER would have. 

Anyway, I really don't know how to end the silent treatment in an effective way.

[Louise7777]

I read a lot on silent treatment and PA behaviour. The bahaviour is childish, immature and pathetic. I read somewhere its a severe form of abuse, a very damaging behaviour for relationships. Also, it was called "crazy-maker". The article said its a way to kill you emotionally.

In my case it lost 90% of its effect, after all, you cant harm a corpse, can you? It was over-used and it got to a point that I dont care anymore. What I did (and worked) after being submitted to that awful behaviour: I stopped contact, stopped asking what I had done wrong, stopped apologizing (I had no idea for what)... .   So it was understood I was giving the silent treatment. And it bothered him. Made him confused (like I had been), even though he had always used the "technique" on me.

My solution doesnt really solve the problem, the causes are still there, untouched, but I had made clear I dont accept it and I stopped the contact. I set a boundary. Its a shame that 2 adults cannot communicate openly but thats his choice and I accepted and protected myself.

But the resentment from this revengefull/ pathetic/ childish behaviour is still here. From what I read, PA people want control. And if thats all they want, no healthy relationship can survive.

SadWife I suggest you to google PAPD, from what you mentioned, your husband has some traits. It may help you. 

[SadWifeofBPD]

SadWife I suggest you to google PAPD, from what you mentioned, your husband has some traits. It may help you

I completely agree. BPDH has traits of a few other PDs... .   NPD, Paranoia PD, PAPD, and some Histrionic PD.

My sister, a T, has said that sometimes it's so hard to pin a person down to a particular PD or dual diagnosis that she and her colleagues just use the blanket, "the person is Axis II."   there is also that Dx of Not Othewise Specified.   

h said that when he was in college, he had some serious OC traits... .   having to drive down the same street a few times to check whether he had hit something and other OCD traits.  He also was seen by a P during his childhood, but I'm not sure for how long.  I know that he was on Ritalin, but also phenylbarbital.  I think the Rx of phenylbarbital is significant.  No, he doesn't have epilepsy.

[Louise7777]

Exactly! The more I read, the more I find about traits that overlap each other.

I just read your other post and Im worried about ur safety. I understand you cant change locks at this moment, but you should really go away and if possible, protect your property. Somebody suggested you talk to an attorney, counselor. You really should. I know u asked for a restraining order, I hope you get it.

Although I havent been remotely close to any of ur experiences, I suggest you remain LC or NC. Its unbelievable the ammount of abuse you endured. I think the point of no return was passed long ago, I dont see a way to improve things in this r/s.

Please protect yourself. 

[SadWifeofBPD]

Exactly! The more I read, the more I find about traits that overlap each other.

I just read your other post and Im worried about ur safety. I understand you cant change locks at this moment, but you should really go away and if possible, protect your property. Somebody suggested you talk to an attorney, counselor. You really should. I know u asked for a restraining order, I hope you get it.

Although I havent been remotely close to any of ur experiences, I suggest you remain LC or NC. Its unbelievable the ammount of abuse you endured. I think the point of no return was passed long ago, I dont see a way to improve things in this r/s.

Please protect yourself. 

I agree.  My son and I are thinking about renting an apt and H will not know where it is.  Older son is getting out of grad school and will be starting a new job in mid-May so he'll have the income to help with the rent. 

Older son has also been very affected by H's behavior and I feel very bad about that. This isn't the son who's getting the restraining order.  This is the son who actually had gotten somewhat close to H in the last 6 years, but H's alcoholism and BPD have gotten so out of hand these last 2 years that this son prefers "no contact" as well.  I'm sure that this is also a significant blow to H since he already lost contact with our younger son 9 months ago. 

For years H has blamed me for his rocky relationships with his sons.  I was between a rock and a hard place.  After one of H's rages, H would also get angry if he thought that the boys and I had talked about the event.  He felt that I was being disloyal and he'd say that T's would be against that.  However, I've been told by my T's that if the kids (especially older kids) witness a raging parent, if immediately after the other parent acts like nothing happened, that would have been more strange for the kids.  H insisted that I was supposed to "take the blame" for H's rages.  In other words, H said that I should have told the kids, "dad is angry and it's my fault so don't be mad at him for raging." 

The point is that the boys could clearly see that their dad was being irrational during these rages. They'd see that he wouldn't let me talk or give "my side" when he'd be raging or accusing. 

The kids were rarely the target of his rages as they got older, but sometimes they knew that THEY had done something wrong (dawdling in the morning before school), and then H would rage at me about that.  That made them feel bad because they knew that they had "screwed up" but I was getting blamed.   Heck, why yell at the mom when a 17 year old dawdles while getting ready for school?  A mom can only do so much when a child is that old. 

BTW... .   the reason why the kids were rarely the target of H's rages when they got older is because they wrote a letter to H's T about 8 years ago (this isn't H's current T).  In the letter they detailed as to why they don't like him.  The letter was several pages typed, and very detailed.  The T told H that if he wanted to have a relationship with his kids he needed to stop yelling at them.  So, after that, when the kids did something wrong (as teenagers do), H would rage at me for their offenses.  While this meant that H wasn't raging at them, the kids were smart enough to see that the raging was still a huge problem.  H wasn't able to see that his raging at me for their behaviors was still going to damage the relationship between H and the kids. 

Thanks for your kind and supportive words.  {{ hugs }}

[Louise7777]

SadWife, the idea of renting a place and H doesnt knowing abt it is great. I understand the costs (not only financial), but you´ll have some peace during the process.

BPD and alcoholism are difficult when separated, Im scared just to imagine them combined.

I think you are protecting not only yourself but also your husband. His behaviour towards you was completelly unacceptable and maybe he has to hit rock bottom (NC from family) to realize theres something wrong and look for real help (AA, another T, etc). Does any member of his family help him, give him advice? Anything you say will start a rage, but maybe the same thing from another person will have some effect... .  

Dont feel guilty, you are actually helping him more now than before, when you "encouraged" his behaviour.

Have a good Sunday. 

[SadWifeofBPD]

Does any member of his family help him, give him advice

His family is a large part of the problem.  H hasn't had much contact with them for the last 30+ years so they haven't witnessed much.  All they know are the words from his "poor me pity party of lies."

Last summer he resumed more frequent contact with them when he went to visit his mom and he told them that he was an alcoholic and it's my fault.  They just believed that, so they've been providing misquided advice ever since.  My hope is that as he has less contact with me, he will "bother" them more and more and they will get smacked in the face with reality.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Does any member of his family help him, give him advice

I should add that his family (siblings and mother) spent their lives perfecting PA behavior because they weren't allowed to express their opinions in the home.  The dad was very controlling and it was a his "way or the highway" attitude.   Opposing or different thoughts weren't tolerated. The dad could never be questioned or challenged. 


My H has said many times that he's mystified as to how my family can sit around a dinner table and discuss various points of views and people don't get upset/rage. He said that his family never did that (discuss viewpoints). 

He said that he doesn't understand how we can have discussions and then not be furious at each other.   

So, when H would see our boys and me discussing something and each person puts forth "pros" and "cons", he'd get anxious and tell us to "stop fighting".  The boys and I would look at each other and wonder what he's talking about. We weren't fighting, we were discussing.  No one is upset, no one is calling names, etc.

It's funny that he views a "discussion" as a fight, but he allows himself to rage.  Strange.