He's trying... I'm struggling

[byasliver]

My uBPDh is trying. I got a compliment, a joke and a smile all in the last week! It's been great... .   but... .   I feel all the hurt feelings from his past behavior starting to rise to the surface. I don't want to dump on him when he's trying so hard but it seems like I keep everything tucked away when he's being detached and as soon as he starts opening up some, it starts to surface. AND I feel myself pulling away from fear of more hurt when I know that's not what he needs! UGH!

My baby sis came over tonight for our first visit in a few months. We've both had crazy schedules and just haven't had time to get together. She and I had a long talk because she knew there had been problems but she had no idea of the extent. After I filled her in on what's been happening the last few months, she was dumbfounded. She didn't even know what to say. It felt good though to not be covering for H anymore and to be honest about his behavior.

But here I am feeling all this old hurt that H has never been accountable for or even acknowledged and I'm supposed to be encouraging him for the small steps of improvement he's showing... .   so incredibly hard!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waitaminute]

I can only suggest that you use the resources here to communicate in an emotionally safe way.

almost everytime I use SET, I am amazed at how well it de-fuses some real minefields.

[TigerEye]

Hey byasliver

This sounds like a classic case of our old enemy, resentment.

It will eat you from the inside if you can't find a way to deal with it, it festers, builds up and then explodes. The one thing we know is that accountability and acknowledgement are something we are unlikely to get in day to day living when we are dealing with such a destructive disorder. My SO told me of a conversation with a friend she had at the weekend saying how she didn't know why she bothered with r/s when she knows she destroys them from the inside. Can I take that as accountability and acknowledgement? I guess so, but what would be better would be if she recognized how she was being so destructive and did something about it, but as you said, baby steps.

So what to do about the resentment? If you wish to stay in the r/s, you need to find a way to let go of it, sounds easy, but I can assure you it's not always. Understanding where the hurt comes from, was there motivation to cause hurt (usually this is not the case - B's tend not to cause hurt by intention) how important are the issues that are causing the hurt  - are they just niggles, are they deal breakers or somewhere in between? The one thing that you can change for certain is how you view these issues, Radical Acceptance is, again, an easy statement to put out there, but it takes a great deal of soul searching, practice and understanding of both ourselves and the disorder to achieve and only then if we are willing to do so.

Having someone to talk to about our loved ones is great, but expecting them to understand why we are putting ourselves through this is something else. Remember, it has taken time and effort on our part, and probably time on this site, to get an understanding of what we are dealing with, to a complete outsider we appear to be the crazy ones! Talking it through with someone is a good way to off load some of the resentment, (do you have a T of your own?) it also gives us another persons perspective, but it would take time for them to get their head around why we would put ourselves through this. I am fortunate that I have friends and family who, although they may not understand why I am staying, at least accept that it is my choice and I have made it with a certain amount of knowledge and understanding.

Here's a link to the TOOLS on Radical Acceptance https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0;wap2 see how you get on with it and give us your thoughts on how you might move forward.

[byasliver]

Thanks, Tigereye. I think the best explanations of "radical acceptance" don't really start until around page 3 of that link where it emphasizes that acceptance does NOT equal approval. Then a page or so later there is a reminder that healthy boundaries need to apply as well. Really tough stuff but I know it's necessary.

I do have my own T and he helped me to realize that my staying with my uBPDh is more about how much I love him and fear losing him than codependency. Experiences I had as a child have created a fear reaction in me that is almost like paralyzation - more emotional than physical. I am emotionally paralyzed by the idea of losing him. I know I should stand up for the boundaries I need but am frozen in my fear of losing him. And, yet, here I am also frozen by my fear of being hurt by his BPD behavior again. Such a crappy "rock and a hard place".

I will, thankfully, have the house to myself today (rare lately with uBPDh unemployed) and think I will take some of the time to really reflect on how I am going to move forward with all these feelings.

[TigerEye]

That is a very big part of RA, it is not that we approve or agree with the behavior, but we do accept that it is what it is, and as we accept, we also look to what we can change to make the situation better, because we can, that's the power we hold.

Boundaries improve the situation for you, after all, they're based on your values. I have found that by not staying around to take the torrent of abuse, the false accusations, circular arguments and misplaced anger does not weaken our r/s. Last night, as an example, she was raging because of something that I had no part in, but she was trying to lay it on me. I took myself off upstairs when I realized we had reached a point where no good was to come of remaining, when she came to bed, still pi*sy with me, I calmly said that I understood that she was angry at me, but I couldn't help if she couldn't tell me why she was angry with me. Immediately I could see that she had no answer to that, and suddenly she started being nice again.

Boundaries work, the TOOLS work, it takes time and practice but they can help, and that can also help you. Realizing we nons have issues too is important, I'm pleased to hear you have T, keep working on you, you can gain the strength to change things for the better, what ever the outcome, it will be better for YOU.

[byasliver]

I'm just really struggling to wrap my brain around the idea that I have to figure out a way to either trust him without his taking ownership/showing remorse for past hurts, accept that I won't ever really be able to trust him or begin to consider leaving. The last one is an absolute LAST option. I meant it when I committed to this r/s: for better or worse. Trust is so huge to me, though and it was one of the things that I used to have with him on a level I'd never had with anyone else. I need to grieve that it may be gone forever but there's always this little voice of hope that keeps me from the acceptance of that. And there it is: how to accept the loss of the trust but not give up hope of it returning.

I was talking to my daughter about something else this morning and found myself telling her, "remorse doesn't always lead to redemption." That is sticking in my head and I think it is THAT which I need to truly accept: that he most likely does feel remorse or will but may never let me know that, and he is redeemable even without a show of remorse. I can keep letting past things hurt me (and our r/s) or I can accept that he is a person with value even if it's in a different way than I expected. I love him, deeply, truly, completely. But I have to accept that the expectations I had coming into this r/s aren't realistic anymore. Therefore, I have to develop new expectations if I want it to continue in a fulfilling and happy way.

uBPDh is at a job conference today and has some interviews lined up this morning. Before his first one he sent me a text saying, "I never admit this but I'm a little nervous." That's so huge for him to open up to me that way these days. I answered with lots of validation and encouragement but I was crumbling inside. It used to be that an admission like that meant we'd draw closer and our r/s would build on that. Now, I'm afraid to pull closer and I know he will pull away soon. But there again is the reason I have to find acceptance. I have to accept that our r/s won't be something that gets built upon like "normal" r/s's but instead is a series of beautiful moments interspersed with dark moments. I need to cherish the beautiful moments without letting them create too much false hope and unrealistic expectations, expect the dark moments without drowning in them, and find happiness in the mess :-)

[byasliver]

More sorting through my thoughts:

I'm really wondering if he is capable of maintaining monogamy and real honesty in a r/s with me. And I'm not sure if I can or could accept that. That is not a judgement on either of us - just a statement of fact. He is and always has been very sexual and I have not. We were both honest about that from the beginning but thought we could work through it. Now I'm having doubts. Is it fair for me to expect true honesty and faithfulness from him? Is it fair for him to expect more tolerance from me or for me to expect that of myself? I just don't know right now. It used to be that I would sit down with him and talk this over. That seems an impossibility these days so these are answers I have to figure out on my own.

And before someone decides to move this to the "Undecided" board, please know that I am working through all this with the goal to STAY in this r/s. I'm still just trying to figure out what that does me or will mean for me.

[Rockylove]

I can keep letting past things hurt me (and our r/s) or I can accept that he is a person with value even if it's in a different way than I expected. I love him, deeply, truly, completely. But I have to accept that the expectations I had coming into this r/s aren't realistic anymore. Therefore, I have to develop new expectations if I want it to continue in a fulfilling and happy way.

This isn't an easy thing to deal with.  Kudos to you for giving it your all.  I noticed that you used "expectation" several times and I will pass a tidbit along to you that I've mentioned before in other threads.  Someone told me once "Expect nothing and you'll never be disappointed."  I thought it was a defeatist attitude to take, but the reality is that we will always be disappointed if our expectations aren't met.   When we take away the expectation that others should behave a certain way, there will be no disappointment.  Radical acceptance.  We can't even have an expectation that is different than our original thought of what should be as this sets us up for disappointment when our BPD (or anyone) doesn't respond a certain way to your new way of thinking.  

Having good boundaries for ourselves helps.  We have the boundaries for us.  It doesn't matter what the other person chooses to do because we've no control over that anyway~~and I'm beginning to learn that my uBPDbf changes the rules to suit his situation so I never really know what's coming next.  My job is to stay focused on what I will and will not accept in this relationship.  There is never going to be a 50/50 in this relationship.  There is nothing fair about it, but I've established in my mind how much unfairness I'll tolerate.  He will do whatever he's likely to do and that won't change who I am.    

I need to cherish the beautiful moments without letting them create too much false hope and unrealistic expectations, expect the dark moments without drowning in them, and find happiness in the mess :-)

This is a tall order, but well worth the effort you'll put into it.  As an experiment... .   try taking "expect" out of the sentence.  Replace it with I understand there will be dark moments.  When we say "expect" I believe it suggests an anticipation of an event while being aware that there are dark moments allows us to remain more focused on the things that are positive.  

[yeeter]

You know though, Im going to suggest something that might seem backwards (others can jump in and offer their perspectives)

Nowhere does it say we have to magically open up and bare our inner self to be abused, hurt, taken advantage of.  So no, you cannot trust him.

Some things you might be able to trust him on.  Some things you cannot.  So dont feel obligated to open up in an area where you dont feel safe.  Your history gives you every reason not to trust, and its an important human need to protect yourself from hurt.

To me, thats part of what boundaries are all about.  There are things I will not share.  Because I know they will be misused, and I will end up hurt.  I accept this.  I can evaluate why I get hurt, and try to desensitize myself to the possibility even.  But if I dont feel safe sharing, then Im not going to.  This has helped me rebuild my own sense of self.

As for expectations - it sounds like you are doing a great job at looking at the 'reality' of the situation.  Not just what is 'possible', but also what is 'probable'.

[byasliver]

I think I might have a slightly different view of "expectations". When uBPDh was in the military we had a saying between us: "hope for the best, prepare for the worst, expect the unexpected." It came from the countless unexpected disrupts to our life, horrible luck, etc. That mantra really got us through some tough times and I think I forgot it when he finally left the military but it applies now just as much if not more. The idea is to keep a positive outlook but stay prepared for whatever might happen. And it's about NOT having any defined expectations but just being able to expect anything that might come your way. I do like your suggestion of using "understand" in place of "expect" at times, though.

As far as the trust issue, it isn't necessarily a requirement in all relationships. But it's very important to me. I just have to decide how important it is or how important it will be. I mean, to be honest, some of what I'm referring to can be a life or death issue: if I decide not to worry about his fidelity (or lack of it) then I'm taking a huge risk by having sex with him. Some of it is about the emotional aspect of trust but I can deal with emotional wounds. Catching an STD isn't always easily overcome, though.

[defusion5]

Great thread.

That is a very big part of RA, it is not that we approve or agree with the behavior, but we do accept that it is what it is, and as we accept, we also look to what we can change to make the situation better, because we can, that's the power we hold.

The above quote is something that I need to get my head around... . Like a lot of other's in here, the hurts in the past and my now defensive behaviour is only fuelling the situation.  I love the idea of aligning setting boundaries with my values.  I''ve incorporated mindfulness/ACT into my own life. I don't know why I haven't done it with my rship with my uBPD partner.

Thankyou everyone for this important thread... .

[byasliver]

Really struggling with radical acceptance this morning. Last night I heard a crash when uBPDh was putting our son to bed. I was pretty sure I knew what it was but didn't check it out just then. This morning, my suspicion was confirmed: H had pulled down a curtain - not just pulled it down but broke the rod holders! He probably stepped on the bottom of it which pulled it down. Anyway, when I asked him, "what happened to the curtain?" his response, "I don't know. It just fell." OH MY GOD! You are a grown man! Not a child! How are you supposed to trust a grown person who can't even be honest about something as small as that?

So very thankful he will be out of the house all day today and I will be out of the house all day tomorrow.

[yeeter]

Why would someone not want to own up to this?  Some possible reasons... .   :

They were embarrassed/ashamed

They did not want to feel judged

They did not want to have a feeling of wrong doing

They did not want to suffer the berating of it

They did not want to face conflict and drama over it


Its doesnt sound like it was intentional, or done in a rage (at least from your description).  If you really want to understand why he doesnt own up, you have to be open to the various possibilities - without judgment or blame.

[byasliver]

I really do get it but just needed to vent. It's just so difficult to deal day-in and day-out with someone who expects me to acknowledge and appreciate every little thing while they acknowledge and appreciate nothing. And I can't express anything negative without backlash. My four kids act more mature and show more personal responsibility than he does and it's just wearing on me lately.

[TigerEye]

Oh, I hear you on that one, vent away, I might just join you, if that's okay, as I'm currently suffering the fallout after calling her out on her dishonesty.

I was feeling tired as for the last couple of days she had been spiraling because of some stupid things that she had done, nothing that worried me in any way, but they were affecting her and causing her to push me away like a bulldozer. My own fault really, I should know better, but it was a perfectly innocent question and yet she looked me in the eye and told a bare faced lie. I took it calmly but did demonstrate that I knew she was lying - bad mistake.

I can see now that even though it was such a trivial matter, that somewhere in yeeter's list is the answer to why she chose to lie when the truth would have been a simple solution. It would have made perfect sense resulting in no drama, no conflict, no judgement or blame, I feel that unfortunately she wasn't able to process this fact when her head was swimming in her negative thoughts about herself.

These stupid lies are really hard to take though, we are trying to rebuild some form of trust in the r/s after her antics in the last 9 months, this doesn't help, but I do see that during her dysregulation, her thought process goes out the window, and that's what worries me about the future of this r/s.

[arabella]

So many of these feelings sound so familiar to me. It's a lot of personal work to sort through, so kudos to you for taking it on and trying to work through it all!

All I can offer is my own experience. Maybe this won't help you at all, every situation and every person is unique after all. It works for me most of the time, with the caveat that a serious bout of dissociation is currently derailing what has worked for us for the past decade and a bit. So take from it what you will.

A long time ago I chose to radically accept that my dBPDh just wasn't capable of fidelity or being fully honest. I thought I'd never be able to trust him again. But I do trust him. It's a different version of trust than what I previously expected or understood the word to mean. Do I trust him not to sleep with other women? No. So we have an open relationship - that way we can at least be honest about it and I can react in ways to protect myself. Do I trust him to 'play' safely? Yes. He is probably more concerned about health and safety than I am. Do I trust him not to lie to me about stupid, pointless things? No. Do I trust him not to lie to me about important issues that affect me? Yes. My acceptance of his dishonesty has actually helped a lot. When I catch a lie I don't make a big deal out of it (unless it is, in fact, something that is a big deal - this has been very rare though). The less of a fuss I make, the less he lies. I can't count the times I've said, "you could have just told me that, it's not an issue", and he looks relieved. It's interesting, because he really doesn't want to lie, it's compulsive. I've asked and he has admitted that, most of the time, he has no idea why he lies, he just can't seem to stop himself. I just accept that and move on.

I realize this scenario would be completely beyond some people's boundaries. That's okay. It works for us and it allows me to enjoy my life without trying to control my H (which is obviously impossible). Is it typical or expected? No. Do I share any of this with my family or friends? No. This is not what society expects and it's not what we're taught to accept or cherish. I don't care. It's what is possible with the person I love. It's hard. It requires a lot of work on my part to get past my own old expectations and beliefs. It has required me to look at love and marriage and what those things mean in a whole new way. It's a constant struggle to buck tradition and societal pressure, even just within myself, to conform to the 'normal' standard. I think it's made me a better person and allowed a lot of spiritual growth, but that's just me.

I hope that no matter what happens, you are able to find peace from all of this turmoil.

[byasliver]

Right there with you, TigerEye. I can deal with a lot, but the dishonesty... .   I just don't know. Ugh! Just typing that out, I had a small panic attack (when I have those they are  very "contained" - my chest tightens, heart races, breath gets short but otherwise, no outward signs) and thinking through why that happened... .   I think I have my answer. I CANNOT deal with dishonesty... .   period. If I'm going to be in a r/s then I have to be able to trust the other person. I do understand why my uBPDh resorts to hiding things, deception or lies but mental illness or not, he is an adult with a very intelligent brain capable of many functional behaviors and decisions. If this marriage is important enough to him, he will commit to putting in the work to rebuild it. No, I'm not saying I expect great changes immediately but just attending therapy and not raging lately are not enough. I won't tolerate him admitting he has a problem when it's convenient for him (like when he doesn't want to have a healthy discussion) but not admitting it when he chooses (because admitting he has issues means he has to accept responsibility and work at change). Having a mental illness is not an excuse to behave in any way you choose and it's not a "get out of jail free" card. Not sure if I'm making sense but basically, I'm not going to let him use it as a crutch so he doesn't have to be accountable. He asked me last night to send him an email explaining my feelings about trust which I did but he has not responded. I didn't expect him to because he has appointments all day today (one being a therapist). I'm not sure I really need to talk to him about the feelings I'm having today, though. I think it's more just that I've realized that this is a boundary for me: if at any time in the future he brings up his issues to excuse his behavior, end of discussion for me. Or if he denies his issues to avoid any responsibility, end of discussion. Not sure what my exact verbal response will be... .   will have to think about that.

arabella, thanks so much for sharing your experience. I have spent a great deal of time considering whether or not I could remain in a r/s with uBPDh while just accepting his infidelity. For me, the answer is no. He is FAR too impulsive sexually so it wouldn't just be a matter of the trust with me. He could bring home a disease that could be deadly. I accepted his "need" for porn early in our marriage but infidelity is a deal breaker. I can give him a "pass" at the moment because I do truly believe he is mentally ill. But now that he is starting to accept that, he is an adult who has the mental capacity to decide (1) to not engage in such behavior, or (2) to be honest about it. It's not about controlling him but what I will or will not accept. It is not a judgement on him though I'm sure that last statement may seem that way. I grew up with lots of mental illness in our large family so I am very familiar with how capable or incapable it can make someone. I've seen him use his willpower to do incredible things so I know it's in him - but it's up to him to make that choice to do the work or not. If not, I think I could finally move on without feeling as guilty as I once thought I would. No, still not packing my bags or his... .   again, this is just a clear recognition and realization of a boundary for me. Feels pretty good!

[byasliver]

Oh, forgot to mention that I'm also dealing with finding out that he is trying to drop one or more courses from his college course load right now. He is not working, barely looking for a job and at the moment is only enrolled in two online classes. He stays up late playing online video games, sleeps in, naps every single afternoon, and does barely anything around the house. So, either he admits he is mentally ill and that's why he can't handle more than one class right now or he continues his denial and downward spiral. It can't be both. Maybe he and I do need to talk. Last we did talk, his opinion was that he does NOT have a problem. He said that in the therapist's office last week. In the email I sent last night I mentioned that and said that I agree with the T that he is wasting our time if that's truly how he feels. Guess I just need to hear from him what his thoughts are on it because if he is hanging on to that belief, I'm not going to hang on to a sinking ship. I will get myself and the kids out now so we don't go down with him. I hope with every fiber of my being that isn't the case but I need to start accepting that it just might be.

[4now]

 

Just thought I would offer a little encouragement! 

Wow, the curtain thing! Yes, why wouldn't he just own up to it, really?  Who knows, probably for all the things that Yeeter mentioned. I am with you though.  That doesn't excuse it.  Like you, I have small children.  Wouldn't we expect one of our children to respond honestly when asked about it, despite what the fall out would be.  Isn't that what rearing children is about?  Teaching them right from wrong and that it's best just to tell the truth.   I guess that people with BPD didn't learn this lesson as children, or their illness keeps them from applying it as an adult. 

Sounds like there are a lot of issues right now.  It sounds like you are having a bunch of problems with him and his behavior, including his lack of responsibility and ownership in the relationship and with his own illness.  More than likely, you can't change this.  You can only change how you react to all of it.  I know you have probably heard that a 100 times by now.  But truly, the only person you can control and change is yourself.  You will drive yourself mad getting him to see the error of his ways and trying to get him to change something.  How I handle this, which I am not very good at, is any time I find myself ruminating on him and something he has done, I turn that focus away from him.  I literally try and will myself not to think about him.  Then I think about me and what I am feeling.  I think about what I can do for me that will benefit the situation and benefit me.

I would also encourage you to stay in the moment.  I can relate to so much of what you are going through.  I have been there and will probably find myself there again. Sounds like you are really worried about infidelity. This has been a big worry for me.  The only thing I can do about that is to know, for myself, that if and when that happens, this relationship will be over.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it. So I don't worry about it now because it hasn't happened (that I know of), but I know without a shadow of a doubt what I will do if it does. 

The best thing to do is to stay in the moment, focus on yourself, and work on being a strong person who can handle the break-up if and when that happens.  Try not to borrow too much trouble from the future.  Deal with what is in front of you and take it in bite size pieces.  Hang in there!

[byasliver]

Interesting turn of events: I just found a ton of stuff on his external harddrive including a link that somehow transfers everything I download on my comp to his comp! I deleted the file from the hard drive but I have no idea how he set that up. There was stuff on there that I downloaded this morning after he left. He hasn't been home to access his laptop so it HAS to be automated somehow. I have NEVER lied or hidden things or deceived him in any way so there would be NO reason for him to have to check up on me like that... .   only reason is so he can stay aware of what I know because HE has things to hide! Unreal.

Btw, I had no intent today of "snooping." I was playing online looking for something else when I stumbled onto a link for a gaming profile of his. Got me curious so I did a google search for the gaming profile name and it spit back PAGES of various gaming profiles for him! He has more gaming profiles than I could even count! So I tried to log on to his laptop (fyi, he has told me numerous times lately that "my laptop is sitting right there and you know all my passwords. you could search it anytime you want!" but he has put a password on it that I don't know. Sitting there wondering what his password might be, I saw his external hard drive. Hooked it up to my comp and, bam, tons of info he has been hiding. The biggest shocker is really the file that lets him see into MY comp!

I feel like I'm in some alternate universe right now. I honestly don't think I know anything about him anymore. Tomorrow I'll be gone all day and busy Saturday but that night he and I will have the house to ourselves. I think it's time for a real conversation about where we're heading. Next post from me just might be on the Leaving board :-(

[arabella]

Oh, byasliver, I'm so sorry to hear this! What a shock finding that link must have been. You're right, it's time for a talk. Will you have a chance to do a quick refresh of some of the lessons here? I really hope that you are able to have a productive discussion, but I fear that being confronted with these things might turn into a mess on his part. (Not trying to discourage you, just want you to be as prepared and ready as possible!)

I think, reading through this thread, that you've come a long way in recognizing how you feel about some of the issues in question. It doesn't matter which particular path you choose so much as it matters that you become clear on what is best for you and what you need in your r/s. We all have different boundaries and needs, but we universally need to acknowledge our own thoughts and feelings to be true to ourselves. It's so much harder than it sounds! You're on the right path, just keep on questioning, and keep your head up.

[yeeter]

I really do get it but just needed to vent.

Vent away!  My vents usually read something like:

I have chosen to stay with an individual who has a personality disorder.

I have chosen to stay with an individual who has a personality disorder.

I have chosen to stay with an individual who has a personality disorder.

I have chosen to stay with an individual who has a personality disorder.

I have chosen to stay with an individual who has a personality disorder.


I find repeating this a minimum of 5 times... .  

[byasliver]

He began a conversation with me via text (because I was at the school picking up the kids) but then cut it short. But, it didn't go well. I did remember the lessons (it really does get easier the more you use them) but everything that is said to him is met with an argument and an attempt to belittle/blame me. He said we'd talk tonight but he isn't home and I don't have any idea where he is. He did have an appt at 3pm but that should have been over by 4pm and it was only a few minutes away. Maybe he left... .   who knows! I am standing my ground, though. Yes, I have chosen to be in a relationship with someone who has a mental illness (I've been saying the same mantra, yeeter) BUT I will not let it destroy me. I have emotional needs as well and if he cannot or will not be honest with me then we need to live separately either temporarily or permanently.

Is it crazy that the thing that still blows me away most is the discovery that HE is apparently spying on ME? I have nothing to hide! Never have!

[byasliver]

LOLOLOLOLOLOL! Guess what course he is dropping? "People Management"! That is hilarious!

[arabella]

Is it crazy that the thing that still blows me away most is the discovery that HE is apparently spying on ME? I have nothing to hide! Never have!

Projection! He's spying on you because he knows he has something to hide, ergo, YOU must have something you're hiding! ta-da!  (And, yes, this sort of thing always blows my mind too!)

LOLOLOLOLOLOL! Guess what course he is dropping? "People Management"! That is hilarious!

Well, that makes sense at least!

[TigerEye]

From what you're saying, I would say you are moving from stage 4 to stage 5 in the Five Stages Of Discovery For Family Members, have you seen that in the suggested reading on the TPI board or read Stop Walking On Eggshells?

Keep up that strength of mind, this is about you and your values, not his.

[byasliver]

Conversation did NOT go well. He is back to saying he doesn't have a problem and many other things that were very hurtful. He is also saying that he won't continue therapy if we separate. I don't want that over my head but I don't know how much more of this I can take.

[arabella]

I'm sorry it didn't go well, byasliver. That's really disappointing!

It is not on your head if he chooses to stop therapy. You are not responsible for his actions and it is completely inappropriate for him to make this sort of threat. It does sound to me though that he might not be taking therapy very seriously - so are you really losing anything in that case? Remember, YOU can attend therapy on your own (and you should regardless of what he does). Therapy only works for those who are putting in the effort and willing to make changes - it sounds like you're in that mode and he's not right now. It might take separation for any real change to occur... .   What do you think about this?

Have you considered the possibility of a 'therapeutic separation' (see link below)? Perhaps something like that might work for you? It might be more palatable to your H as well... .  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686.0

[byasliver]

I've spent the last few hours on the phone with various crisis lines - I appreciate that they are caring, sweet people but somewhere there needs to be a crisis line that will actually give advice! I am so completely frustrated that because he has "only" been verbally abusive and not physically abusive, the law really won't step in! He has me completely stuck and he knows it! Conversation just a little bit ago:

Me: What is your intent?

H: I'm not going anywhere until I can find a place to live.

Me:So you intend to leave?

H: That's what you said you wanted!

Me: No, I said if you continue to deny your own issues and chose to stop therapy then you need to leave. I also said I would not tolerate your treating our daughters differently from our son and I would not tolerate anymore verbal abuse.

H: You took what I said out of context.

Me: You said, "The girls are selfish, ungrateful brats." Correct?

H: Yes, but that was out of context.

Me: Can you tell me what context you meant it?

H: I don't know.

Me: Ok, again, what is your intent?

H: I'm not going anywhere!

Me: Do you intend to honor my requests?

H: What requests?

Me: About your behavior (I restated the boundaries I said above)

H: (in a very sarcastic tone) Oh, verbal abuse. I'm so terrible.

At that point I walked out and started making phone calls. I tried to call his sister who he visited recently but she was busy and hasn't called me back. I can't call anyone else at this late hour and I've had to rearrange my whole day tomorrow due to this. I just sent him the description of "Theraputic Separation" but I seriously doubt it will do any good. My plan is to call all of his therapists tomorrow and mine to see if someone can see us tomorrow and mediate this situation.

[arabella]

Feeling stuck is no good, it's very stressful, and that's the last thing you need right now. It may be time to look at your options and see what's available to you. It sounds like your H is willing to leave, so that may actually be a good thing. I'm glad you have therapists you can speak with, hopefully they will be able to offer some solid advice!

Your boundaries are sensible and they are valid. You don't need him to agree to your boundaries, they are yours, don't try to turn them into rules for him. The question for you is this: what are you going to do to enforce those boundaries? What happens if he remains verbally abusive? Treats your daughters poorly? You need a plan. Will you ask him to leave? Will you leave with the children? You are only 'stuck' if you don't know what you're going to do - start exploring your options. (This sounds so much easier than it really is, I know!)

Looking at the conversation you posted, can I make some suggestions?

Me: What is your intent?

H: I'm not going anywhere until I can find a place to live.

Me:So you intend to leave?

H: That's what you said you wanted!

Me: No, I'm sorry if I sounded like I wanted you to leave, I didn't intend that to be the message. I said if you continue to deny your own issues and chose to stop therapy then you need to leave. In order for us to stay together we both need to acknowledge our own issues and continue therapy. I also said I would not tolerate your treating our daughters differently from our son and I would not tolerate anymore verbal abuse.

H: You took what I said out of context.

Me: You said, "The girls are selfish, ungrateful brats." Correct? I apologize if I didn't understand what you meant. I will ask for further clarification next time. I think therapy may help us to communicate better. 

H: Yes, but that was out of context.

Me: Can you tell me what context you meant it?

H: I don't know.

Me: Ok, again, what is your intent?

H: I'm not going anywhere!

Me: Okay, that is reassuring. You know how I feel about the situation and what I want for our home environment. I'm glad we can work on this together.

Do you intend to honor my requests?

H: What requests?

Me: About your behavior (I restated the boundaries I said above)

H: (in a very sarcastic tone) Oh, verbal abuse. I'm so terrible.

What do you think?