Can pwBPD be friends after a relationship?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Its been a dark and stormy four months. I managed to regain some control after being raged on for the last two months. I'm unused to negativity and after being split black, used humour and lighthearted emails and texts to pull him back to earth. He doesn't know that I know he has BPD. I won't give you all the gory details but everything is there from raging, to causal drug use, excessive alcohol abuse, suicide attempts, self harm, adrenaline junkie, issues with death and the list goes on, projection, transference, disgusting cheating, using sleep deprivation in order to gain control, too many ER visits from risky behaviour etc. on and on. He is high functioning and he has had some therapy because we have talked about his childhood and the effects on him as an adult. And while he won't admit the full extent of his parents actions and how they impacted his life, he does use language I think he'd only find in therapy. He also says the therapy groups he went to were for depression and "mourning the loss of a loved one". I actually believe his "depression group" was for BPD sufferers. In any case, he's come around for the moment after days of splitting me black. I think he wants to be friends as I've expressed that's what I wanted. Is this possible? I'd appreciate any thoughts on this.

[Chicago girl]

Its been a dark and stormy four months. I managed to regain some control after being raged on for the last two months. I'm unused to negativity and after being split black, used humour and lighthearted emails and texts to pull him back to earth. He doesn't know that I know he has BPD. I won't give you all the gory details but everything is there from raging, to causal drug use, excessive alcohol abuse, suicide attempts, self harm, adrenaline junkie, issues with death and the list goes on, projection, transference, disgusting cheating, using sleep deprivation in order to gain control, too many ER visits from risky behaviour etc. on and on. He is high functioning and he has had some therapy because we have talked about his childhood and the effects on him as an adult. And while he won't admit the full extent of his parents actions and how they impacted his life, he does use language I think he'd only find in therapy. He also says the therapy groups he went to were for depression and "mourning the loss of a loved one". I actually believe his "depression group" was for BPD sufferers. In any case, he's come around for the moment after days of splitting me black. I think he wants to be friends as I've expressed that's what I wanted. Is this possible? I'd appreciate any thoughts on this.

[HarmKrakow]

You should ask your self, why would you want to be friends? Something my shrink also asked me.

A friend is someone you can level with emotionally, someone who understands your feelings and is there for you when needed.

A BPD has none of those characteristics, it will be more of a nurse - patient friendship where it will only cost you energy. Drain you ... .

Why?

You not only can't be friends with a BPDer, there is effectively no point. I rather talk to a wall than to someone with BPD. Both won't understand me but the wall does not rage back.

[Impact009]

Sometimes, people care too much about others instead of their well-being, so they stay.  That, or they can't let go of the attachment.  How do people generally break off the attachment?

[patientandclear]

My own take is that it is usually not healthy to just go around "breaking off attachments."  When we genuinely loved and cared for someone, it makes sense to want to maintain that connection if it can be done in a way that doesn't do you harm.

I do think that is very challenging with someone wBPD unless you yourself can maintain utter clarity about what you want & what is really going on.

I initially tried to maintain a friendship with my uBPDexbf while he was ostensibly trying to figure out in therapy what his problems with intimacy might stem from.  Instead, he immediately went out & re-engaged his ex-girlfriend.  That hurt so much & felt like such a betrayal that I could not be in contact.  I spent 10 months in NC, learning about BPD during that time.  When I learned he & the new/old gf had split, I decided I could be his friend without constantly wanting something else; I also decided I'd concluded he has triggers everywhere and simply cannot sustain a romantic partnership.

All that was well and good.  Except that he then drew me very close emotionally.  It was so hard not to slip into the hope that maybe our connection was so special, he could learn to trust me, I could be the very best friend/partner ever, and we could transcend all that I said I knew was true about him and BPD.  He was obviously experiencing the same slippage, but began to engage in this cycle of pulling me close, then rejecting me, sometimes with overt statements about how he only wanted to be friends (which I had never questioned, so it was quite hurtful, though I'm now sure he was handling his own feelings of wanting more via projection).

So these mini-cycles of intense closeness and then withdrawal and distance happened and were hard.  I think any friendship with a BPDex is going to be characterized by that.

In my case we settled into this "everything but sex and avowals of love" kind of pseudo-partnership for quite a while, which meant it was extremely painful for me when he abruptly left town, perhaps for good, and radically changed the nature of our communication.  Because we were not in an explicitly defined romantic r/s this could happen without him announcing it as a breakup, but effectively, it was.  In fact, our whole post-r/s friendship was a sequence of unacknowledged breakups and makeups.

I've spent a lot of time reflecting on whether a post-romance friendship is possible and what the ingredients are that are required for that to have a chance of being OK.  There are a few people on these boards who have given it a serious shot and many of us have really found it difficult.  But there are a few posters on Staying who have some excellent tips on how to manage such a r/s.  The keys seem to be:

No expectations; don't be moved by idealization to see more in it than is there; no expectations; don't try to rescue or fix; don't expect him to be something he is not; no expectations; expect inconsistency; he will leave, though he will probably also return; no expectations; don't take disappearances personally; be able to endure protracted silences and withdrawals; no expectations.

I find it very hard to be this close to someone and truly have "no expectations."  But expectations are always disappointed with a pwBPD -- that much seems clear.  You cannot get comfortable with how it is or feels today, because it won't stay that way.  Which is not to say there cannot be growth and value, but it is not linear and it comes along with dynamics that most people normally process as rejection.  You have to be able to withstand that.

Good luck.  If you try this I urge you to spend time reading the communication tools on the Staying Board.

[turtle]

I won't give you all the gory details but everything is there from

raging,

causal drug use

excessive alcohol abuse

suicide attempts

self harm

adrenaline junkie

issues with death

projection

transference

disgusting cheating

using sleep deprivation in order to gain control

too many ER visits from risky behaviour

etc. on and on.

I think he wants to be friends as I've expressed that's what I wanted. Is this possible? I'd appreciate any thoughts on this.

This is quite the list, Chicago girl.  :)o you think someone with a list like this is capable of real friendship?  There are many people in the world you can choose as friends.  If someone else wrote this list, would you tell them to move forward with a friendship?

Just curious.

turtle

[Chicago girl]

H.Krakow, this is an excellent question and one I did ask myself. I think that it possibly has its roots in control, and as such, codependency. I think I felt such an unbelievable lack of control over the past four months I needed to feel like I was taking that back. In the past week or so I've actually begun to feel a bit detached, and even able to laugh at myself hysterically over this whole situation. Maybe this was my brains way of trying to "balance" things due to anxiety - balance theory in cognitive dissonance theory? Maybe? So, I had two conflicting emotions, co-dependency and counter-dependency and needed to find a balance? I'm not saying this is a healthy resolution. The normal emotionally healthy adult would find resolution by, yes, severing all contact. By forcing him to re-engage after he so clearly had split me black, I felt a certain amount of (albeit false) control again. The text conversation almost went south a few times but I knew exactly what he was saying even when he was saying something else... .   I lead him in the direction I wanted him to go, which was a truce.

You are right, I will be a nurse. I don't suspect however that he will lean on me very often and this "friendship" is more of a way for me to not feel hated. Why should I care if a mentally ill individual hates me? Compulsion, co-dependency. I'm trying to be honest here at getting to the root causes which leads me to Impact009.

I have an unbelievable amount of sadness for this person. It actually puts my stomach in knots thinking that he will, in all likelihood, walk around for the rest of his life ... .   a scared, abandoned kid. He'll be a shell of an adult male, constantly putting on a show to hide. His brain was rewired because his parents said "we'll be right back" but instead left him sitting in a doctors office. I became a mother a couple years ago and I've noticed I'm A LOT more emotional when it comes to children being mistreated. I feel bad for this guy. He's high functioning (LSW), smart, can hold down a job, funny ... .   it really is so sad.

To break off attachment you just have to have NC. No phone calls, texts, emails, FB- done, gone. That would be the practical stuff. Emotionally however I think like HarmK. pointed out, you have to ask yourself "why am I doing this?" Again, the short answer is because we too have co-dependency issues and compulsions that need to be addressed. What was your relationship with your parents? Do you see any similarities with how you were treated as a child and how you allowed yourself to be treated in this "relationship"? The answer is of course different for everyone but looking at root causes to the attachment and understanding those may be the first step in being able to emotionally break it off.

Really appreciate your feedback here. Thanks.

[Chicago girl]

Turtle, I think at the moment I'm using the word "friendship" very loosely. You are too right in questioning the logic here. By "friendship" I don't expect there will be much of a mutual exchange of feelings, emotions or ideas but I just couldn't stand being hated, even if from a mentally ill person. That is my issue or rather AN issue. I realise that. Thank you for your frankness, it will help me keep things in perspective in the future.

Patientandclear, I really appreciate your post here. I almost feel like this COULD happen to me. I don't know that I would necessarily be uncomfortable if he went back to an ex. I think I would have to feel closer to him for that to happen. Since REALLY acknowledging this is a mentally ill individual, I've been able to keep my distance emotionally. The romantic emotions anyway. I obviously still have other attachment issues happening here. I think if he went back to an ex or began a new relationship, I'd know it'd be over within a matter of months and I'd just feel sorry for whomever he was abusing as I'd have NO DOUBT there was PLENTY of emotional abuse happening, daily.

I think you hit it on the nail that you have to be completely clear about what is happening and what you want. That is fantastic advice. I'd like to add, being present, staying in the moment emotionally and recognising co-dependent behaviours within ourselves when they arise.

I also find it interesting that you characterise your friendship as a series of breakups and makeups, much like the cycle in our romantic relationships.

Thank you for your list of tips, this is really helpful. I think what I'm feeling at the moment is a sense of relief that I'm not hated. I'd also like to be available if at some point he decides he wants therapy again, which we'd discussed in the past. I have a baby to think about so I can't get too involved, nor do I want to at this point. I do care for him, but I also see him very clearly for who he is and what he is capable of. I will be reading about those tools on the communication board. Thank you.

[WalrusGumboot]

I'd also like to be available if at some point he decides he wants therapy again, which we'd discussed in the past.

You have to be careful about leaving the door cracked... .   they have a way of exploiting that.

[turtle]

Turtle, I think at the moment I'm using the word "friendship" very loosely. You are too right in questioning the logic here. By "friendship" I don't expect there will be much of a mutual exchange of feelings, emotions or ideas but I just couldn't stand being hated, even if from a mentally ill person. That is my issue or rather AN issue. I realise that. Thank you for your frankness, it will help me keep things in perspective in the future.

This is JMO.  If you are going to be in a relationship (ANY kind,) with a pwBPD, you'll need to get comfortable with being hated.  It's just part of the package.

I think it is very difficult to be "friends" loose or otherwise with someone who is so emotionally unavailable, and in the case of your ex -- EXTREMELY self destructive.

You have to ask yourself if you are willing to invest so much energy in something that will surely leave you empty.

turtle

[seeking balance]

No - simply - Not this soon.

Once he has his own new life and you have yours  - maybe, but then why would you?

You are his current biggest trigger and he is yours - that simple.  To stay, you need to be on the staying board and be willing to use the tools, accept the ups/downs and the limitations.

If you leave - let him go.  Move on with your life and let him move on with his... .   it is the kindest thing to do.

Peace,

SB

[Chicago girl]

There seems to be a pretty resounding "no" to this question. I can definitely appreciate that.

Walrus, I like what you said about leaving the door cracked.

Turtle, I will definitely be mindful about how much energy I invest. I hadn't realised actually until recently how physically exhausted I was from all of the anxiety over the "relationship" (romantic). It does indeed take a toll.

Seeking balance, I can't help but feel as though I was a trigger because we were too close. Perhaps this bit of distance will help to keep all triggers (on both sides) at bay?

We shall see. I'll be posting an update at some point I suspect.

[BorderlineMagnet]

I think there is a possibility to maintain some form of friendship out simply caring and worrying about your ex pwBPD. My previous low-functoning ex had many of the traits you listed about yours. After our split, and her contacting me after a month of NC, I maintained and at-arms-length, non-emotional friendship with her. Mainly out of respect and pity at seeing how she treated her parents, and how much deeper into addiction she was falling. I set firm boundaries with her about talking about feelings she had for me, and whenever she would break those boundaries (which was a lot), I would disconnect and tell her that I needed to leave, or she had to go back to her sober living house. Even though this person had emotionally wrecked me and wore me out, I still did not want to seem them homeless or dead. It's very hard to do this, so you need to ask yourself if you really think he's worth your attention. I finally had to come to the conclusion myself that I needed to turn my back on her. I told her I would always be her friend, but since she had skipped out on her 3rd rehab try, that just like me and her family had told her we would have to turn our backs on her and she would be essentially be on her own. I told her that her words mean nothing to us anymore, and that from now on her actions will be the only thing that speaks for her. I got hung up on. At this point I do consider her my friend in some capacity, and if she was in real, present danger, I would assist. But it would have to be blatantly obvious. I will not listen to her cry wolf ever again.

[briefcase]

To be friends, you have to go through a period of real seperation and detachment.  I don't think you can go straight from break up to friends without spending some time detaching completely.  Once that work is done, you can try to be friends with him if you still want to.  Often times, the idea of "being friends" is simply a way to hang on, in some way, to the relationship.   

[whereisthezen]

I never thought of that because I think I feel that I couldnt for my own health.  If I broke it off Id want a clean break. If he continued the behaviors and called me as a friend to help, I know I couldnt.  If the behaviors kept going for say a year or two or more, and their ups and downs and secrecy and behaviors, I couldnt once I had a clean break.

We all have to do whats best for ourselves.  If you chose to have a friendship with him, make sure its on your terms and you tell him what your intentions are.

Maybe like, I think we can maintain a friendship, an email here or there. If we keep it simple.

You know what you really want, so make sure you get that.  Sometimes people take things too broadly so he might start depending on you again.  Dont make his problems your problems.

[maria1]

To be friends, you have to go through a period of real seperation and detachment.  I don't think you can go straight from break up to friends without spending some time detaching completely.  Once that work is done, you can try to be friends with him if you still want to.  Often times, the idea of "being friends" is simply a way to hang on, in some way, to the relationship.   

I agree with this. I am back in contact with my ex. I have had mainly NC/LC over the last year but this will be my 3rd attempt at 'friendship' over that time. He does have an ability to respect my boundaries. I am realising that I am, at times, quite immature in my responses. I can tar his behaviours with an extreme brush in my head when he isn't actually being extreme. In other words I can over react to minor behaviour out of fear of what happened in the past.

What keeps me in contact is that he tries more than a lot of people to be a good person. He knows his behaviour is terribly destructive and he really does want to change that. As long as he is trying I have some respect for that- it's too easy for me to write him off over other people in my life who are actually far less worthy than him and never even bother trying to change.

I would say think in these terms:

Have zero expectations;

Accept that they will hate you at times;

Accept that they may want more from you at times than you can give;

Be clear about what you can give;

Work on your boundaries;

Use the tools but don't use them to improve your relationship, you don't have a relationship;

They are who they are, accept that;

Live your life- continue your journey of growth.

It's not possible unless you have spent a long time detaching. I was only in the r/s 10 months and the abuse really hadn't started. It would have done and we both knew it.

[rosannadanna]

Hey Chicago girl  ,

I second everything in Maria's post.  I am also voting for doing NC to emotionally detach before wanting to re-engage as something other than romantic partners.

I also want to say that your self-exploration is admirable and impressive!  Just keep going with that.

When you described your feelings for your ex and how you have compassion for him b/c you seem to see him for the broken little boy he is, I can so identify with you and this feeling was the main reason I re-engaged with my SO.  I have strong rescuing tendencies from FOO and felt compelled at the time of re-engagement b/c of some circumstances that were making me wonder if he was alone and in pain.  But that was after 6 months NC.  And I waited about a month after I was triggered so that I would be mentally prepared.  Before that it was strict NC with me completely ignoring of his attempts to contact me.

The only thing I want to add is that I have been dealing with BPD shinanigans starting when my son was 12 turning 13.  He is now almost 16 and almost out of the house (he is gone a lot as is is).  If you are a single mother to a baby, you do not need this drama right now.  Focus on your baby!  The first five years of a child's life are when they build and learn about healthy attachments.  Your ex is no longer a little boy.  You can have compassion for him, but please rethink any relationships that will interfere with your most important relationship; with your child.

Take care and you will be in my thoughts in your journey