Wife was Different & Strange Night

[Depression = 72% of members]

The last time I went to visit the kids, I had enough with trying to validate my wife--she seems to really hate that--and pretty much just ignored her, except for one sarcastic joke I made to one of her complaints, which she at least didn't kill me for. 

Tonight I went by to see the children, and she seemed much more somber when I showed up.  While she was still the same old grouch in some ways, it was different this time, and some of her old niceness was showing through.  Again, I ignored her complaining, the worst of which focused on why I decided that building Legos with my son was a good idea.  In any case, she came home cranky, and I wrapped up the night by playing songs on my guitar for my son as usual.  When I walked down the stairs to head out for the night, she had changed into her pajamas--which means that she was upstairs next to my sons room while I was playing him his three songs--and was crying in the way she does when she is reflecting on something.  More unusual is that--rather than the usual Ke$ha type of outfits that she has been dressing in recently--she was wearing the old BYU sweatshirt that I gave her, which used to be one of her favorite things to wear at night when we were together. 

So here is the problem.  I think that her paramour is out, or that something has happened that is now making her reflect back on the relationship.  The dilemma for me now is that, because our relationship has always--at least ostensibly, as far as I know--been based on squeaky clean family morals before this fallout, I know that if there is any chance that I can pull my family together, I will have to be the one who reaches out to her.  In the past when she has become upset at something--say our church for example--she blows it up to such epic proportions that she feels extreme guilt, which causes her to not reach out and repair something even when she might want to.  Yet, if I reach out, I am afraid that it might backfire too because she has always felt that she hurts me too much and will push me away. 

I feel that I really only have one shot at reaching out to her and really don't want to regret never pulling my family together because I was too afraid to try.  I know I need to wait a bit more, but I certainly don't want to wait until the opportunity to mend my family passes me by.  Any advice on mind reading, or any advice that focuses on what has worked for others would be appreciated. 

[BPDdaddy]

The last time I went to visit the kids, I had enough with trying to validate my wife--she seems to really hate that--and pretty much just ignored her, except for one sarcastic joke I made to one of her complaints, which she at least didn't kill me for. 

Tonight I went by to see the children, and she seemed much more somber when I showed up.  While she was still the same old grouch in some ways, it was different this time, and some of her old niceness was showing through.  Again, I ignored her complaining, the worst of which focused on why I decided that building Legos with my son was a good idea.  In any case, she came home cranky, and I wrapped up the night by playing songs on my guitar for my son as usual.  When I walked down the stairs to head out for the night, she had changed into her pajamas--which means that she was upstairs next to my sons room while I was playing him his three songs--and was crying in the way she does when she is reflecting on something.  More unusual is that--rather than the usual Ke$ha type of outfits that she has been dressing in recently--she was wearing the old BYU sweatshirt that I gave her, which used to be one of her favorite things to wear at night when we were together. 

So here is the problem.  I think that her paramour is out, or that something has happened that is now making her reflect back on the relationship.  The dilemma for me now is that, because our relationship has always--at least ostensibly, as far as I know--been based on squeaky clean family morals before this fallout, I know that if there is any chance that I can pull my family together, I will have to be the one who reaches out to her.  In the past when she has become upset at something--say our church for example--she blows it up to such epic proportions that she feels extreme guilt, which causes her to not reach out and repair something even when she might want to.  Yet, if I reach out, I am afraid that it might backfire too because she has always felt that she hurts me too much and will push me away. 

I feel that I really only have one shot at reaching out to her and really don't want to regret never pulling my family together because I was too afraid to try.  I know I need to wait a bit more, but I certainly don't want to wait until the opportunity to mend my family passes me by.  Any advice on mind reading, or any advice that focuses on what has worked for others would be appreciated. 

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[arabella]

Wow, that's a turn of events for you! How's your head feeling with this recent development?

First of all, I just want to remind you that you are not responsible for her actions or reactions. You weren't responsible for her initial dysregulation and you weren't responsible for her sudden realization that Ke$sha wasn't working for her (if that's what's going on). So don't put it on yourself to be responsible for pulling her back in now - she'll do what she wants no matter what you do (within reason).

That said, I lived a somewhat similar experience. My dBPDh had a sudden personality overhaul (this was many years ago now), started an affair, and left me. A few months later the switch flipped back and he was upset over everything he'd lost and didn't know why he did it, couldn't understand what happened, couldn't remember how he felt such to motivate him to do those things... .   Basically, it was like a dissociative episode. Then we had to overcome his guilt - he was no good for me, he hurt me, I'd never really forgive him (to his mind), etc.

Some of what I did worked and some of it didn't. My approach was to take it very slow and be very reassuring. No rushing back (I think that would have triggered his engulfment fears as well as seeming fake to him). A lot of validation of his feelings. I also had to be very firm about my own feelings and let him know that they were my own - he wasn't 'allowed' to project his thoughts or fears onto me. I told him I was making a choice to forgive and move forward because I loved him and he just needed to accept that. I should have insisted on therapy for both of us once he'd calmed down a bit. H's approach was to just forget it all happened and not deal with it. I pretty much went along and I really regret that aspect. It's all playing out again now with nothing resolved (although we did have 10 good years in the meantime).

I'll say too that it wasn't a smooth transition. There was no "one shot" at it. It was a process and he went back and forth on things, second guessing what we were doing, being afraid to come back (what if I rejected him?), not talking to me here and there, and then finally coming back to stay. I suggest perhaps mentioning that you still want things to work, but avoiding a big discussion about it. Drop a few casual hints for her to think about without any pressure. Give it time. Basically look at it like starting to date your wife again. Eventually you'll get to the big issues and you'll know when the time is right.

I'm not sure any of that will help you, but I hope it does! Good luck!

[BPDdaddy]

Thanks, I think I'll look for that opening.  One thing that was scary is that she definitely dissociated.  It was like she took on an alternate persona that was a mixture of the heroine in her erotic romance novel and the "throw caution to the wind" theme in Women who Run with the Wolves--her misguided counselor recommended this to her, and it enabled what was already a big problem in our marriage over the years. 

Now the hardest thing to do seems to be the waiting it out period.  I've heard that for some the only thing you can do is wait it out until your loved one figures things out for herself, i.e., ends up in a hospital bed.  And I know I'm not supposed to worry about her anymore, but it is certainly hard not to.  I showed up yesterday, and she is becoming so very frail, and she seemed not only somber, but also very emotionally unstable.  Again, I want to just reach out, give her a hug, and tell her everything is going to be okay--she is so capable, with or without me, and I wish she knew that. 

[slimmiller]

If you love something, set it free, if it comes back to you, its yours, if not it never was.

Thats always been my mantra (and still to a degree) but with 'them' I dont trust that instinct. However, I would caution you in the situation you are in, there will be plenty of 'openings' if she is for real. Just one small unspoken show of remorse is far from anything concrete. I have seen the same thing too many times. The remorse she showed is merely a moment when the 'Ke$ha' act is not giving her the 'warm fuzzies'. When they reconnect with that, we dont exist again :'(

Plus if we give in to that little act, we are in essence letting her know that the pain they have just caused us is okay and they can get away with doing it again

[arabella]

Thanks, I think I'll look for that opening.  One thing that was scary is that she definitely dissociated.  It was like she took on an alternate persona that was a mixture of the heroine in her erotic romance novel and the "throw caution to the wind" theme in Women who Run with the Wolves--her misguided counselor recommended this to her, and it enabled what was already a big problem in our marriage over the years.

 And, yup, I got the alternate persona too. Very scary. The first time it happened I had no idea what was going on, he hadn't been diagnosed, and I was just left reeling. This time at least I know what it is (still scary, but not quite as bad for me).

Now the hardest thing to do seems to be the waiting it out period.  I've heard that for some the only thing you can do is wait it out until your loved one figures things out for herself, i.e., ends up in a hospital bed.  And I know I'm not supposed to worry about her anymore, but it is certainly hard not to.  I showed up yesterday, and she is becoming so very frail, and she seemed not only somber, but also very emotionally unstable.  Again, I want to just reach out, give her a hug, and tell her everything is going to be okay--she is so capable, with or without me, and I wish she knew that. 

I waited it out. Dropped little pieces of info (I want things to work out, I hope you're okay, let me know if you need anything, etc) when I could, but I didn't push it. What else is there really? I mean, you can't make her realize anything and you can't force her other persona to emerge. It's frustrating. With my H I found he came back much more gradually than he dissociated. YMMV. He was never hospitalized - hitting bottom looks different for different people and, if she's already starting to swing back a little, then she's probably already bottomed out. Bear in mind it's a long, long way back up. She is definitely unstable, best advice I have is to try not to trigger her, although if you do, don't worry too much it sort of slides away again anyway (again, just my experience).

Slimmiller makes some good points too. She may come back, but then be prepared for her to go all Ke$ha on you again at some point in the future. Mine took 10 years to cycle again, but it's still a nightmare, and a lot of other people here have stories where the cycling of personas is much more rapid. Just be aware of what you're dealing with. And don't make the mistake I made with ignoring the need for therapy.  

[BPDdaddy]

My problem will be getting her into therapy, and with the right kind of therapist.  Her's is a certified counselor, and he hasn't come close to addressing the issues.  But even the two Phd'ed psychologist I have talked to have been generally unhelpful with helping me fully grasp the issues at play.  I finally began doing my own research to find out that I'm the adaptable people pleaser--which is why I finally lost myself in this relationship--and that the instability that made me feel like she didn't love me was her BPD. 

Bottom line, I don't think that there are many psychologist out there who can see a person with BPD walk into their office and actually make the correct diagnosis, so I am at a loss with how to actually guide someone into the office of someone who can actually help--case in point, her current counselor who is very holistic and spiritualistic (Buddhist), it was a very hippy friend of ours that recommended him.  Not to mention how stubborn she has always been to anything I suggest. 

[BPDdaddy]

Just a side note: It's a strange thing to know that your BPD relationship was wonderful but yet it really messed you up, to have finally written it off because your wife literally wants to destroy you for the first time in the marriage, and then just a week later to be contemplating how to strap yourself back into the roller coaster ride just because Darth Vadar seems to have some feelings . . . maybe I really am the crazy one 

[Somewhere]

. . . maybe I really am the crazy one  

You are trying to run Crazy Code on your Normal Brain Processor.

If it made sense, you might be crazy.

Since it seems crazy, you probably are not.

Meanwhile . . . sounds like she is projecting the crazy in her head on to you.

Just part of what they do.

[arabella]

If it made sense, you might be crazy.

Since it seems crazy, you probably are not.

Yes!

My problem will be getting her into therapy, and with the right kind of therapist.

***

Not to mention how stubborn she has always been to anything I suggest. 

Have you located a BPD specialist in your area? That's definitely what you need, I don't know that I'd waste time on anything less, especially since someone not trained to deal with BPD often just makes things worse (as you've unfortunately discovered). When you get to that stage, and I imagine it will be awhile yet, you can try DEARMAN. You might also want to try to recruit a 3rd party to help. Sorry, I don't remember - does you wife know she has BPD?

[BPDdaddy]

No she doesn't.  And the problem is that she is extremely narcissistic.  For example, when our daughter was about 6 months old, she let me know that she felt depressed and thought that it would be a good idea for her to go to a doctor and get some anti-depressants.  I let her know that I supported her decision to go speak with a doctor.  Immediately--she always uses something else as an excuse rather than stating what is really going on--she used the excuse that she was breastfeeding to reverse course on the decision just because I agreed with it (it may have been better for me to be totally against it).  I stated that I thought there would be nothing wrong with feeding our daughter formula, but she had a million reasons why that would never work. 

So I feel like it's the same thing here.  It's always her way or the highway, and if I suggest that her counselor is clueless and put our family in danger--two opinions from Phd'ed psychologists came to this conclusion--by enabling her to withhold marriage counseling for 4 months while our marriage was in crisis, she will bear down even harder on her decision to go to this specific counselor and no one else.  If I suggest a specific psychologist that may specialize in BPD, then she will likely say that I need to see the specialist and not her.  The way it goes--now that I can see through all of her excuses--is that she can suggest help for me, but not vice versa.  In fact, if I suggest anything to her, disagree, ask questions, etc., these things are "abuse" to her at this point.  This makes me think that the only way to have a relationship with her again is just to grin and bear the craziness.   

[BPDdaddy]

The "no win" situations that she puts me in whenever I make a suggestion, or support, anything that has to do with her possibly having a problem are really mind blowing. 

[somethingtolose]

While not ideal, you could buy the DBT materials and leave them around the house, or start doing the exercises yourself to see if she becomes interested. I'm not saying that would necessarily work, but might plant a seed that may eventually lead to something if you get lucky. Obviously, it sounds like she's not likely to be receptive if you are the messenger, so maybe if you could get someone she trusts to bring DBT up in a natural way... .   Good luck.

[arabella]

Of course, if she thinks you bought the DBT materials then she may end up dead set against reading them or ever considering DBT.

What if you tell her that you think her current counsellor is really great? Will she dump him? hehe... .   But in seriousness, do you know anyone else that you might be able to recruit to point your wife in the right direction?

[BPDdaddy]

The problem with the way things went is that over the years, we shed good friends whenever she either (1) sent them negative vibes, thus destroying my relationships with positive people, or (2) blew something up, like our church and the community it brought us.  When we moved out here to the East Coast from the West so that I could attend law school, I wasn't around to build a strong network of friends for us.  Her only real friend--that I can say is somewhat on the good side--is a super negative conspiracy theorist (i.e., when my wife said she recycles, her friend went on a rant about how much she hates people who recycle).  She was the one who ratcheted up the whole mess to the point where my wife has basically cut all other good acquaintances, including my family who I thought she loved, out of her life.  So needless to say, her and her husband think all psychology is garbage--though, since my wife got caught up in a new negative circle, they have been cut out of my wife's life apparently too. 

[BPDdaddy]

So my son is now sick again for the 7th time since he caught a fever and pneumonia two months ago, and he is really becoming thin and frail like my wife--I try to bring food when I can, but with my heavy finals schedule, it is becoming darn near impossible.  I showed up to watch him today instead of heading to church, just so that my wife gets out and he has someone to really take care of him for a bit, and I am really worried. 

My wife is falling apart big time, and can barely take care of her frail self, and is now even starting to look and act like a crazy person.  She disagrees with anything that I try to do to try to get our son a decent meal, and there really isn't anything that she has in the house for him to eat.  It wouldn't be such a big problem--her disagreeing with any common sense food choices that I am trying to make for my son--but my son is very attached to his mom, and will only do what she says, which makes it really impossible for me to get him to eat.   

I guess that all I can do is wait this out until after finals when I can finally set up an apartment for joint custody and get my children away from their mom for a while and some decent nutrition, but man, it worries me so much.  I hate saying it, but sometimes I wish for the old days when you could have your wife committed.  It really is scary to see how far she is willing to fall, and still, there is no sign that she sees anything wrong with how her decisions are affecting her, and those around her. 

[arabella]

I guess that all I can do is wait this out until after finals when I can finally set up an apartment for joint custody and get my children away from their mom for a while and some decent nutrition, but man, it worries me so much. 

When are you done your exams? If your son isn't doing well (it sounds like he might be getting worse again?), have you taken him to see a doctor recently? I am concerned, from what you say, that his health may truly be suffering in a way that can't be put off any longer. This might require professional intervention sooner rather than later.

I hate saying it, but sometimes I wish for the old days when you could have your wife committed.  It really is scary to see how far she is willing to fall, and still, there is no sign that she sees anything wrong with how her decisions are affecting her, and those around her. 

If it gets bad enough you can have her committed - but it would require you to prove she is an immediate danger to either herself or others. Doesn't sound like it's quite at that level yet (fortunately enough). Just remember, she isn't really willing so much as she is seriously ill. She truly can't see what you see. Scary indeed.