Intensity versus Intimacy

[clairedair]

In a recent post, someone used the phrase "intensity versus intimacy" and it got me thinking.  I googled it and found this article by Randi Kreger:

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201202/problems-emotional-intimacy-typical-borderlines-and-narcissists

"Real intimacy has to do with trust, understanding, and feeling understood. People who are intimate—and I'm not talking about sex—reveal vulnerabilities without fear that what we share will be used against them. Intimacy relies on safety, patience, mutuality, respect, constance, and no secrets. Without healthy self-disclosure at the right time, there can be no intimacy. And that takes honesty about who we are and how we feel. The more intimate you are, the safer you feel and the more worthwhile the relationship.

Intensity, on the other hand, has to do with secrecy, lack of trust, high drama, fear, lack of boundaries, and disrespect. Most of all, it serves to distract each person from working on their own issues because most of the time is spent in fantasy, the cycle of idealization and devaluation, bitter arguments followed up by apologies and sex.  "

My exH repeatedly told me when he was leaving that intimacy was missing from our marriage. After our first split and his subsequent instant new love, I went to pieces - the silver lining being that I started to open up; express feelings etc (not something encouraged by FOO).  When we then got back together, we shared with each other in a way that we hadn't before in over 15 years of marriage.  I was hooked.  Every time he left and blamed lack of intimacy, I got to reconcile with him and try again to 'prove' that this wasn't true.  Every 'honeymoon' start to reconciliation was just what I hoped for.  I mistook this for real intimacy - emotional and physical (even spiritual?). 

But then the thoughts and feelings shared would be used against me; the mutual respect would start to erode or even disappear overnight; there was no consistency (I include myself here - once he started to 'disapprove' or 'reject' my feelings, I would start to withhold feelings again because I learned that really expressing how I felt often led to him leaving the relationship).

Looking back now that I am a little more out of the FOG, all those wonderful times do seem more like intensity than intimacy. 

I need to find out more about why I was so attracted to the intensity.  If I had said no to any one of many reconciliations (always at his initiation), I might have given myself the chance to find a relationship that was truly intimate years ago.  I have that chance now.

take care,

Claire

[maria1]

Hi clairadair

For me the intensity is because an emotionally available man suddenly becomes available. Or so it seems. It's like not greeting on in any long term relationship and then having a rare moment if communication. It feels incredible, intense, amazing.

But it can't last. It's not based on real intimacy which is and should be consistent over time. I don't think I've ever had a relationship where that lasted very long.

My father want emotionally available to anybody really and never really could be. He was/ is emotionally quite immature although he acts as though he is better than everybody else.

I would like to experience intimacy properly. I think I can. I think I'm on a road to connecting with myself.

This morning I remembered how my mother showed affection. It felt nice and it was good and comforting to remember that I did get love as a child.

[Mara2]

Thanks for sharing.  Definately food for thought.

[clairedair]

This morning I remembered how my mother showed affection. It felt nice and it was good and comforting to remember that I did get love as a child.

I think this is useful - to try to remember times when love felt nice/good/comforting/tender/caring/consistent and hope that I can learn to really appreciate this instead of seeking out the intense love that certainly made me feel alive at times but wretched and heartbroken and exhausted as well.

I would like to experience intimacy properly. I think I can. I think I'm on a road to connecting with myself.

It seems ridiculous to me sometimes that we are not connected with our own selves but now and again it feels like I am living up to others' expectations/society expectations etc and I am not sure whether my beliefs and values are actually mine or absorbed from messages from FOO/church/ex. 

[maria1]

I have just started meditation and my teacher says that we all seem to be trying to connect with ourselves because we need a parent. She explained it better than that but what she says I'd that it is possible to find a connection with your true self through meditation. That its a state if being that helps us find out way to other things because we have lost the ability to truly feel joy in just being.

I like that; it gives me hope.

Where are you with therapy and meditation?

[clairedair]

Where are you with therapy and meditation?

My first couples counselling session with exH (his idea), I sat with arms crossed and announced "I don't do feelings".  Seems like a lifetime ago - now I've had years of therapy and my family are desperate for me to return to my old self as I talk about feelings all the time!

Seriously though, I would not have survived without the therapist I had during rollercoaster years.  I stopped seeing her about 18 months ago.  I recently started seeing a new therapist because I felt I really needed to deal with some of my own stuff (the previous therapy was more about dealing with the ups and downs of the relationship).  I'm finding this harder - I am resisting more - but hoping it will be something positive for future.

I am much more able to 'just be' - I always used to be on the go - but haven't ever tried meditation. Sounds like you'd recommend it.

[maria1]

I would actually. I'm not good at stuff that looks after me. My teacher isn't religious and she just makes it very simple. The first class she talked about how the way we breathe can actually be relearned to give more back to ourselves. And about how do much if our energy is focused externally, that we can go us done of it back internally, through breathing and posture.

It's the first time in years I have felt enthusiastic about learning something!

I still haven't managed to sit and go it just for me but I am committed to the weekly lesson.

The therapy you are undergoing sounds really positive. I think if it is hard and we are resisting it is getting somewhere we need to get to.

It sounds like you are beginning to get yourself together for you- good for you 

[clairedair]

The first class she talked about how the way we breathe can actually be relearned to give more back to ourselves.

Funnily enough, my new T has focussed on my breathing too - seems I breathe in an anxious way!  I am constantly lacking in energy so I am hoping this will help.  She got me to sit in a different way to normal and it was amazing how different I felt  - like royalty on a throne - felt empowering but I was very uncomfortable (not physically) at first.

She also got me to close my eyes and focus on what was going on under my skin.  I actually got very upset very quickly because what I could feel was anger in my very bones - like it had been getting stored away deep inside.  I'm getting uneasy just writing about it.

[maria1]

Sounds like a good therapist. Maybe talk to her about meditation. You might be best just focussing on stuff with her awhile? Sometimes we can overload ourselves easily.

[Cloudy Days]

Thank you for the link it was very informative. I definatly have an Intensity relationship. My question is, if both of us work on ourselves, is it ever possible to have actual intimacy with your BPD? My husband has been trying really hard, I just don't trust him with my feelings, I don't trust anyone with my feelings though, I'm working on that.

[maria1]

Cloudy Days

BPD is an attachment disorder and my understanding is that intimacy is impossible- it triggers feelings of engulfment/ abandonment. But if they and you are in therapy perhaps this is something to hope for. Stayers would know much better than I.

I wonder if your question about the possibility of real intimacy might be a good question for you to explore with others on the staying board?

[Phoenix.Rising]

My mother was not and is not emotionally available.  I'm almost certain she has BPD.  I'm working on this with a therapist.  I was talking to some friends last night about intimacy and how I've always chosen women who were emotionally unavailable, and yes, I chose intensity over intimacy.  It's just what I've been drawn to.  I am still drawn to it, but I have an awareness now... . I have a clearer picture of what lies ahead if I choose that path, and today, I choose not to go down that road.

I recently shared some personal details with my mom, almost as an experiment, and I got nothing from her.  She's not able to go there.  It's really quite sad.  But it's been that way my whole life with her.  I've gone for women who are physically beautiful but emotionally unavailable.  The physical attraction creates intensity, and the other dynamics do as well.  But it is such a train wreck!  I can see it now.  I do believe I am slowly getting healthier. 

Someone said the more he learned to respect himself the better his relationships got with others.  This made a lot of sense to me.  We are learning to love and respect ourselves, so we will start to attract others on a similar plane.  We become intimate with ourselves.  I do believe there is hope for intimacy.  I think I've been afraid of true intimacy in many ways, and there's a lot that goes into that.  If you really knew me, then you wouldn't like me.  Or you will leave anyway (as most pwBPD do), and so on.  So again, it comes down to me liking myself and accepting and honoring myself... . and trusting myself.  The more I learn to trust myself, the more I feel I will trust another and let them in.  I know deep down I have a hell of a lot to offer.  My exwBPD missed out, I believe.  I would've given her my all.  But it would've never worked.

I am a passionate man with many loves in life.  My exwBPD would say she liked that I was so passionate about nature, animals, people, and life.  There are others out there like me!

[clairedair]

Hi CloudyDays

I don't know the answer to your question - Maria's suggestion that it might be worth posting something along these lines on the Staying Board is a good way to go.  I tend to think all things are possible but that's not always been healthy for me!  We have both seen therapists so I can't say that the issue about intimacy was because either of us refused to work on ourselves.

Sometimes I do feel that there were times of real connection and intimacy but the issue for me was that they didn't last.  As I mentioned earlier, I was not someone who readily shared feelings and this was something my exH found difficult throughout our marriage.  When things got really difficult, I changed and learned to open up.  Ex seemed to really respond to this at first - it was really good to talk with him about all sorts of stuff but eventually I would slide back into not sharing because I would start to feel rejected or disapproved of after the intial 'honeymoon'.  I grew up not really sharing negative feelings but I can see from my journals written in first few years of my relationship that there were times where I did try to share anxieties/anger etc but was 'shut down' by ex so I guess this reinforced childhood stuff.  Was devastating that he used my inability to share feelings as a reason for leaving.

MyexH is very empathetic with others; he will talk and write about intimacy as part of his job.  I do think it's possible he can have moments of intimacy and I know he has a need for a certain level of intimacy in his relationships.  He has told me often that he loves me but our relationship doesn't fulfil this need. And then it does. And then it doesn't... .  

It sometimes feels like a vicious circle - partner wants intimacy; you share feelings; feelings invalidated so you are wary of sharing again; partner upset that you don't share feelings so you try again and experience invalidation again.

Have you ever trusted anyone with your feelings or learned not to trust because of your relationship?

[clairedair]

Someone said the more he learned to respect himself the better his relationships got with others.  This made a lot of sense to me.  We are learning to love and respect ourselves, so we will start to attract others on a similar plane.  We become intimate with ourselves.  I do believe there is hope for intimacy.  I think I've been afraid of true intimacy in many ways, and there's a lot that goes into that.  If you really knew me, then you wouldn't like me.  Or you will leave anyway (as most pwBPD do), and so on.  So again, it comes down to me liking myself and accepting and honoring myself... . and trusting myself.  The more I learn to trust myself, the more I feel I will trust another and let them in. 

Hi Phoenix Rising,

thanks for this and the rest of your post.  I was thinking as I read this that it kinda works the other way too - that I have been attracted in some way to people who doubt themselves - think I wanted to help them gain confidence.  Not sure but I'll think about that a little more.

[Phoenix.Rising]

... . that I have been attracted in some way to people who doubt themselves - think I wanted to help them gain confidence.

I've had the same tendencies.  For me, it's a propensity to fix them when I need to fix myself first.  I do believe I have some genuine care and concern in regards to wanting to help another, but it's also a convenient way to take the focus off of what needs to be fixed in me.  Of course, it never works, because I am not capable of 'fixing' another, only myself.  Take care. 

[Clearmind]

My childhood meant I didn't trust intimacy. My childhood dictated that intensity/drama was the norm.

[fromheeltoheal]

The first word my BPD ex used to describe herself was 'intense'.  Had I known then what I know now.  I just heard it as a challenge, love conquers all, we could create true intimacy together if I just loved her enough.  I had no clue what I was getting into, and love can conquer a lot of things, but not the disorder.  My heart was still in the right place though, and I do know the difference, the key now is being more present, aware and wise, and not indulging in my own fantasies either, but the reality of the relationship.

[Blazing Star]

Great topic!

In my childhood intimacy was emeshment, and my needs disappeared. I have been looking at intimacy as INTO-ME-I-SEE with my T. While being brave to open up, it is hard when these openings aren't always validated by my pwBPD. I find it very hard to be vulnerable. And I have definitely 'mistaken' intensity for intimacy in the past.

It's great you are looking at FOO issues here, I know it can be painful and confusing and hard at times though.

[Phoenix.Rising]

I think intimacy has a lot to do with respect.  Do I respect myself?  If not, I cannot respect others.  Thus, I cannot trust.  Intimacy=trust as well. 

Like Clearmind, my childhood meant that I not trust intimacy.  There were no boundaries, thus no respect.  We were enmeshed.  Much of my family is still enmeshed.  But I have the power and choice to step back, and see it from a different perspective now.  I can create boundaries and learn to trust myself. 

[Cloudy Days]

I never felt emeshed in my family. We just didn't talk about feelings I suppose, still rarely say I love you to each other but I've always felt that they did love me. My parents fought all the time and they also drank more and more as I got older. I'm sure this affected me a lot. My parents were never abusive on purpose. I think witnessing some of their fights was abusive because it did really screw me up. When I look at my freindships as a child I had a really hard time making friends, I was always very shy. Shy to the point that in Kindegarden I actually wet my pants because I was afraid to ask to go to the bathroom. My parents were extremely leinent though and let me do pretty much anything that was reasonable. What would make a child be so afraid to ask to go to the bathroom? I've always chosen lousy friends too, one in particular was a compulsive liar that no one else would be freinds with. I saw her as a sweet girl who just wanted people to like her. She never lied about anything important, she just liked to tell stories (outlandish stories no one could ever beleive). My best friend in my childhood actually would steal from me and broke my heart on sevral occasions because of some of the stuff she pulled on me. My mom always told me to stop being her freind because she had to keep picking up the peices, I went back every time she apologised though. I actually stopped being her friend when I met my husband because he hated her. She wasn't a model friend but I still miss her. Why do I choose people like this?

[Maryiscontrary]

My perspective. I see the world as chaotic. For instance, the insanely wealthy area I live in is only that way because of Bernanke and Greenspan propping it up. Demand for oil products is actually at a 25 year low, and this was at much smaller US population. So absolute consumption for anything energy related has fallen off a cliff, yet oil is still 90 plus bucks a barrel. So all of old timers in the oil business know that the show could end overnight. Literally, like many times in the past.

Work in any of the propped up fields, like education, science, healthcare, finance, insurance, real estate, and defense contractors? Well, the rug is being pulled out as we speak. chaos. I do not take my income for granted, and neither should you.

I don't need intensity, I need security and peace and quiet.

[clairedair]

I think intimacy has a lot to do with respect.  Do I respect myself?  If not, I cannot respect others.  Thus, I cannot trust.  Intimacy=trust as well.

I find the stuff about self-respect difficult because I would say I was someone with good self-esteem and a healthy respect for myself and yet I seem to be willing to allow others to behave in a way that demonstrates a lack of respect for me.  This doesn't make sense to me and I haven't yet worked it out.  I don't know if I feel that I am an OK (and sometimes more than OK) person and get anxious if others say things or act in a way that says I'm not OK.  I can't let it go - feel the need to 'prove' I really am an OK person?

Boundaries I find difficult too.  I used to say 'yes' to a lot of things I didn't really want to do because I didn't want to disappoint anyone although most friends/family would not see me as someone passive.  I don't think I was confident that I knew what my boundaries were - in some way the 'intensity' stuff distracted from me having to work these out and then work hard to stick to them.  Was easier to be carried along.

I am not comfortable with my new T because the focus is all on me instead of dealing with relationship but I am trying to stick with it because I have realised that my sense of self is not as strong as I have believed.  I like Blazing Star's "INTO-ME-I-SEE" quote.

[clairedair]

Why do I choose people like this?

CloudyDays - did your husband 'replace' your friend in the role of someone who didn't always treat you well but you kept seeing the good in/helping (not sure if I am making assumptions here so apologies if that's the case).  I was really sad to read your tale of not being able to ask to go to the bathroom - I wanted to give the little girl a hug.  Can you remember what you thought was going to happen if you asked?  Are you still afraid to ask for things you need/are essential?

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hi Clairdare,  Looking out ourselves is not easy by any stretch.  If I allow others to violate my boundaries, then I am not respecting myself.  Make sense?

[delgato]

I need to find out more about why I was so attracted to the intensity.

For me, when the going was good, that intensity was *awesome*!

Very powerful, very surreal, very addicting.

And, of course, too good to be true. It only mimicked intimacy.


Addiction really does mess with a person's brain.

[Cloudy Days]

CloudyDays - did your husband 'replace' your friend in the role of someone who didn't always treat you well but you kept seeing the good in/helping (not sure if I am making assumptions here so apologies if that's the case).  I was really sad to read your tale of not being able to ask to go to the bathroom - I wanted to give the little girl a hug.  Can you remember what you thought was going to happen if you asked?  Are you still afraid to ask for things you need/are essential?

In a way maybe, my friend wasn't nearly as bad as my husband. We both grew up together and we lived together at the time I met my husband. I think I was clingy even with her though and she would get annoyed by it sometimes. My freind was a very, very outgoing person, very charasmatic and she would make you pee your pants because she would make you laugh so hard. She just always made me feel good because of laughter. But she would also avoid me at times and wouldn't give me any reason. One time I bought tickets for us to go to a concert, she acted like she wanted to go and seemed excited. When it was time to leave she wouldn't answer her door or her phone, this thing was planned sevral months before hand. I ended up going with my mom, which wasn't bad but if she didn't want to go I would rather she have just said something. She would do this kind of thing all the time, but other times she would seek me out and she would always apologise, I guess just like my husband. All my normal freinds that never hurt me would move away for some reason. Serously, I made like 3 really good freinds in school and each one moved far away.

[clairedair]

Hi Clairdare,  Looking out ourselves is not easy by any stretch.  If I allow others to violate my boundaries, then I am not respecting myself.  Make sense?

Phoenix - I think I would say I had a reasonably healthy self-esteem.  part of what really frustrated me about relationship with ex was that I generally thought I was OK and was confused and hurt that he didn't.  Not saying I can't still do a little work on that and there have been times when my self-esteem was battered but overall I was able to quickly put things in perspective and feel I was OK.  However, the self-respect thing is slightly different.  I can't have that great a respect for myself if I feel that others consistently violate boundaries (even if I am not sure what exactly these are, I do sense when I am uncomfortable and that's probably a good starting point for working out what they are and building on that).

Addiction really does mess with a person's brain.

Delgato

I resisted thinking of the relationship/ex as a kind of addiction until recently.  It's been an eye-opener for me to really view it in these terms.  I feel that my brain is only just coming out of the fog properly.  That brings it's own issues (like what was I doing all these years reconciling repeatedly)

She just always made me feel good because of laughter. But she would also avoid me at times and wouldn't give me any reason. ... .  She would do this kind of thing all the time, but other times she would seek me out and she would always apologise, I guess just like my husband. All my normal freinds that never hurt me would move away for some reason. Serously, I made like 3 really good freinds in school and each one moved far away.

I think the laughter was part of my 'addiction' - we really had a lot of fun at times.  Just made it twice as hard when that was all yanked away at the drop of a hat (or a wrong look or a wrong word).

When you say that your good friends moved away, was that because their parents moved or something they chose to do?  It's sad that you didn't even get to have consistency with the friends that were 'normal'. 

[Cloudy Days]

When you say that your good friends moved away, was that because their parents moved or something they chose to do?  It's sad that you didn't even get to have consistency with the friends that were 'normal'. 

Yea, their parents would move away. My absolute best friend moved into my town and a year later moved out and then another year later she moved back and stayed for 4 years and her house burned down so they moved way far away and I never saw her again. I do now on Facebook, but it sucked. This happend with two other friends too.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Don't feel bad about not having a good sense of what your boundaries are.  I don't think I had any boundaries for a long time.  It was learned behavior.  So I am unlearning it. 

What helps me is thinking about what my values are first and then constructing boundaries around that.

[schwing]

For the longest time I didn't accept this about myself but I now do: that I possess a fear of intimacy.

Signs that I was afraid of intimacy:

Starting relationships were painfully difficult for me.  It was as if I wanted to start in the middle of a relationship.  And no surprises: the kinds of relationship where this could happen were generally intense (i.e, falling in love, feel as if we've always known each other, complete enmeshment).

When I did date women who took it at a non-intense pace, it was very difficult for me.  I kept wanting to interpret their unfamiliar behaviors as some kind of rejection, or potential rejection.  So in a sense it was easier for me to write off a budding relationship, than to endure the dance of getting to know each other in the beginning, of finding out what is comfortable for her and for me, of starting off with some excitement, little familiarity, and allowing that to unfold; I could not tolerate the dance of developing intimacy.  I was very very bad at this.  Still am I suppose, to a lesser degree.

And so this is why so many of my first relationships were ones that begun with "instant" intimacy.  They were full of intensity (what I called passion) and drama.  Because only then would my insecurities and anxieties be swept up and carried off.  And this is why I had so many relationships with pwBPD; like a moth to the flame.

Then again it seems appropriate: if I am afraid of intimacy, who better should I court than women who are incapable of intimacy.