Silent treatment or depressive coping

[nomoremommyfood]

I posted a long, redundant and rambling post below and I don't think there's any way to erase it now. My apologies - I'm new to these forums, don't know what's considered annoying, nor know how any expository details or incident play-by-plays are expected. I'm trying to keep this post more generalized and I hope it's less boring than the prior.

After writing my admittedly self-indulgent post a few hours ago, I re-read some on the older posts and workshops on the silent treatment. Someone noted that - under certain occasions - BPDs will go into a silent treatment when they're depressed and feel unable to speak with anyone. Though my bf did scream me out for really, REALLY nominal, exaggerated chip-on-his-shoulder reasons (I hadn't re-set the TV to his preferred channel; I was asking too many questions about what he wanted for lunch), he has been sinking into a depression after gambling losses. Recently, when he's gotten into minor fights, he's replied with, "it's your fault for wanting to hang out with a depressed, suicidal maniac." In recent fits of rage, he's been implying he's a burden on the lives of his loved ones and that he wishes to sever contact with everyone, only relying on himself for emotional support.

Finally, the last time he pulled the silent treatment, he told me afterward that he was trying to follow advice I'd repeatedly given him... .  to take time to cool off before speaking to someone who's made you angry. I told him at the time and today via text that time alone is ok, as long as communicates that's whats going on. I'm still being ignored but wonder if this is what's going on? Anyone heard this before?

How often is the silent treatment a genuine attempt to constructively deal with depression and how often is it punitive? I know pwBPD are masters of making mountains out of molehills (now that's alliterations!) but can even a disordered individual believe such an innocuous "crime fits the time"? Naturally, there's always the chance it's an attempt to push someone away. I know people with BPD do just "drop" people (I'm still shell-shocked from the one time he disappeared on me six years ago), but how common is it for long term relationships or relationships where the pwBPD has few support outlets?

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[raindancer]

I'm not an expert on this - I can only speak from experience.

I have uBPDxh (I say uBPD but sometimes I wonder if it was actually APD) that I was with for 16.5 yrs - now divorced from; and am currently with pwBPD 3 yrs.

My uBPDxh was silent most of the time we were together (when he was actually home), a lot of the time because he was detached and didn't know what to say but then when he'd say anything it would be mostly rages about things like me waving at someone or a guy glancing at me at the grocery store and once because I suggested a parking spot (and I wished he'd have stayed silent) that sometimes went on for hours upon hours. Some of the time his silence was punitive - "guess what I'm mad at this time... .  " kind of thing. My story on that is a book... .  

The pwBPD that I'm with now goes through periods of silence/withdrawal when he gets overwhelmed, depressed, confused and/or is in a period where he's painted me black... .  he doesn't rage but sometimes he acts out.

It does say in the books I've read on BPD/DBT that it's better to withdraw from the situation rather than duke it out (with words) and escalate... .  It's actually become one of the new rules in our home to take a break and think it out before saying anything (mostly me because I have yrs of experience in inappropriate communicating and only a few months of knowing how to effectively communicate). I've learned a lot from the lessons in effective communicating and validating on the lesson boards here.

I don't think your posts are self-indulgent or redundant or boring... .  You're in the right place - there are many more here who can help you much more than me. I'm new as well... .  

[VeryFree]

I have often got the silent treatment.

My stbxBPDw would tell me the same:

The first hour was because she needed to reframe her thoughts. After that it was me who didn't want to speak (according to he). 

The silent treatment could go on for days, weeks and even months. If I tried to contact her, she would either ignore me or start yelling at me. After I let it go, and became silent also, she would accuse me of ignoring her... .   

I felt like I was being punished for... .  well for whatever she would think up.

[nomoremommyfood]

Thank you SO much for responding! This particular quote very well may sum it up:

The pwBPD that I'm with now goes through periods of silence/withdrawal when he gets overwhelmed, depressed, confused and/or is in a period where he's painted me black... .  he doesn't rage but sometimes he acts out. It does say in the books I've read on BPD/DBT that it's better to withdraw from the situation rather than duke it out (with words) and escalate

I'm really hoping this is an attempt to "do the right thing" by, as you said, withdrawing to avoid more conflict (I think we've read the same books!). Come to think of it, whenever we speak too soon after a fight, we end up just getting angry again. He explained his last silent bought as "I was too upset to talk so I stayed away... .  just like you told me to do." I also told him to text me when he needed space, which didn't happen.

A few hours ago, I got a surprise phone call from his band mate and best friend. Apparently, my boyfriend requested his friend call me so that I wouldn't worry about him (I guess that counts as contact?), yet conversely claimed he was concerned that I "wasn't doing well." This seemed like projection as we ended up in an hour-long discussion about what to do about my bf's obviously deteriorating mental state. Prior to this fight, I'd come very close to getting him back into treatment and I now feel somewhat better that 1.) he's acknowledged my existence, even if via a third party and 2.) I'm not the only one willing to do their part to help him.

I was also told that I need to set clear limits on what isn't acceptable, specifically the silent treatment. However, I'm having difficulty thinking of a repercussion other than ending the relationship, which I know I wouldn't execute. What have other people used as penalties for breaking boundaries? I was thinking about telling him the next time he goes silent without explanation, his next contact will be met with a silence on my part of the same number of days. Is that a good idea?

Again, thanks so much for your help!

[raindancer]

I was also told that I need to set clear limits on what isn't acceptable, specifically the silent treatment. However, I'm having difficulty thinking of a repercussion other than ending the relationship, which I know I wouldn't execute. What have other people used as penalties for breaking boundaries? I was thinking about telling him the next time he goes silent without explanation, his next contact will be met with a silence on my part of the same number of days. Is that a good idea?

When my current guy goes silent I ride it out until he's ready to talk.

I learned the hard way that with him trying to get him to talk before he's ready just leads to acting out of the worst kind (he'll drink himself into oblivion and do stupid stuff, and one time he ended up jail). I don't text, facebook, or call if he's gone that just makes it worse. We live together, when he's silent I find stuff to do - anything to not be in his space.

One of the things he's identified was that his childhood was always his mother in his space, in his stuff, in his business, in his life - drilling him with questions and then invalidating everything about him. She still is doing that and he's 40... .  so the last thing I want to do is repeat that. We had a rough time for a few months and now, when he can talk about how he was thinking at the time, it was because I was reminding him of his mom.

Anyway, I don't know if punishing works - I've never thought to try it. I think it might just lead to more grief... .  It might be seen as a reason to act out etc.

It is good that his friend called you to let you know how he's doing. That is always a relief... .  Maybe his friend can give you updates about how he's doing until he's ready to contact you.

If his friend is concerned about his mental state - maybe it's better that he has his space until he gets back on track. As hard as it is - we are caretakers - sometimes it does more damage than good to run to a rescue they don't want at that time... .  One big positive is that he has a friend sticking by him.

Read and keep busy the best you can.

[Grey Kitty]

I think you are getting there, working things out pretty well.

I would note that silence just to get away and simmer down is difficult, but the "silent treatment" is passive-aggressive invalidation in the worst way. One of the biggest differences that I noticed was that my wife could be friendly/chatty/normal to one person WHILE she was "loudly" ignoring me. That one was really tough.

But when somebody just needs space, you really can't do much, except realize that the silence is less damaging than what they would say. (Consider a twist on the quote "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all possible doubt!"

I was also told that I need to set clear limits on what isn't acceptable, specifically the silent treatment. However, I'm having difficulty thinking of a repercussion other than ending the relationship, which I know I wouldn't execute.

Boundaries are NOT for changing somebody else's behavior. They cannot do that. All boundaries can do is protect yourself from somebody else's behavior.

The boundary you can use is to find something constructive and enjoyable for yourself to do. If they stay in the house and need "space" you may have to choose to leave the house to protect yourself.

Does that help?

One thing I've found that can help is to see if I can find ways to gently "ping" them, with a very short but friendly contact, letting them know that I'm not holding a grudge, and am ready to interact when they are... .  but without any expectations. I've had some luck with this when in the house together, but less luck when we are separated and the "pings" have to be phone/txt/email/etc.

[nomoremommyfood]

It is good that his friend called you to let you know how he's doing. That is always a relief... .  Maybe his friend can give you updates about how he's doing until he's ready to contact you.

Oddly, it wasn't an unwarranted call but the delivery of a specific "message" from my boyfriend. For some reason (that maybe someone can illuminate?) when my bf's distressed over something, he'll ask one of his small, rotating cast of friends/enemies to call a particular person "for him." For example, when upset last week, he wanted me to call his brother to convince him of his genuine sickness.

Of course, there's also the issue of him getting an iphone a few days ago and not understanding how to work it... .  the reason he was coming to my apartment in the first place and source of plenty of "maybe he wants to call, but can't" ruminations. He does, however, have my number memorized.

I would note that silence just to get away and simmer down is difficult, but the "silent treatment" is passive-aggressive invalidation in the worst way. But when somebody just needs space, you really can't do much, except realize that the silence is less damaging than what they would say.

This is what drives me crazy - we've gone over this before, he's explained that he needs to separate from the situation. All I've asked is to tell me he needs space. Otherwise, I automatically think it's punishment, beg for forgiveness, apologize for everything under the sun to the point that I actually texted "I don't care if you call me a [insert profanity of choice], just TALK TO ME!" This ends with him not wanting to discuss it and carry on as nothing happened... .  offering relief at the time but leaving me unable to express how destructive and crazy-making I find the lack of communication.

The boundary you can use is to find something constructive and enjoyable for yourself to do. If they stay in the house and need "space" you may have to choose to leave the house to protect yourself... .  One thing I've found that can help is to see if I can find ways to gently "ping" them, with a very short but friendly contact... .  

We don't live together. While I know many find the pwBPD's cold in-person presence brutal, I'd give anything to see his face, he knows it, and gets away with it repeatedly. I want to let him know how badly the sense of unknowing hurts. Yet I feel that confronting him might just add to his arsenal of control-tactics. Finally, while a gentle ping has always worked in the past, my bf's friend was insistent that I let him contact me, first. He needs to "own up" to his actions by "being a man" and fessing up to his wrong-doing. I know this might not be "validating," but it'd be nice to have some proof that he actually appreciates me!

[Louise7777]

Hey Nomoremomm!

How are you doing? Im dealing nowadays (for a month, actually) with the silent treatment. Although it comes from a non-BPD (I strongly suspect hes PAPD), I can relate so much!

Funny thing, sometimes he breaks the silence himself, other times he asks a friend to do it for him.  I guess its what Americans call a "flying monkey".  His friend is a very nice guy, I have no clue whether he has an idea theres a PD involved... .  

From what you say, seems to me your bf is playing the guilt card on you. He says hes no good, he should get lost or whatever in order to make you feel sorry for him so you get close again and fullfill his needs. Thats how I see it, cause it happened to me. "You are a better person than me". But he continues to use his silent treatment on me over and over... .  PAPD are famous for saying things they dont mean, so I cant say its the same in ur case, but Id be very careful, seems hes manipulating you.

Wish u luck! 

[Grey Kitty]

nomoremommyfood, I'm afraid you are expecting things from him that are beyond his capacity.

Yes, telling you he needs space before he goes away would be civilized, courteous and validating. He may not have that in him.

Demanding that he do something like that after he obviously missed the chance is invalidating and just makes things worse.

And if you are expecting him to "own up" or apologize... .  once again, that may be beyond his emotional capacity. (I wasn't clear if this was what you heard from his friend or what you were feeling)

And again, demanding that is invalidating and will make things worse.

When he goes silent, your best move is to find something else to do that is enjoyable and productive. No, it isn't easy--I've been there too!

[nomoremommyfood]

... .  seems hes manipulating you.

This is why I'm so confused. When there's no contact after a fight, I don't know if he's looking for space or punishing me. Like may pwBPD, what seemed like an overwrought reaction and misplaced anger to me could be genuine rejection to him; i.e., my telling him to go home early could be interpreted as invalidating, despite the fact that I personally don't see anything wrong with politely suggesting someone leave a place where they're making every effort to prove they don't want to be. And in the most overtly rude way possible! I mean, screaming at me for asking if he wanted basil in his gnocchi? And because NBC aired College Jeopardy instead regular Jeopardy?

Yes, telling you he needs space before he goes away would be civilized, courteous and validating. He may not have that in him... .  Demanding that he do something like that after he obviously missed the chance is invalidating and just makes things worse.

Then how do I prevent these incidents? I don't want to break up, but I don't want to spend weeks of my life with a sense of unknowing on my shoulders. It would be a different story if I knew for a fact that, after a fight, he was avoiding me to cool down - heck, I go days without hearing from him when we're not fighting and it doesn't bother me - but it seems brutally unfair to leave someone in the dark. Though he missed the chance, wouldn't it be okay to explain how badly his explanation-less disappearances affect me? Aside from the risk that - once he knows a trigger - he's more apt to use it?

And if you are expecting him to "own up" or apologize... .  once again, that may be beyond his emotional capacity. (I wasn't clear if this was what you heard from his friend or what you were feeling)

That was his friend talking; I don't expect an apology. He actually said "own it" with a slightly different point - that I should intentionally avoid contacting my bf and allow him the chance to genuinely feel the repercussions of his actions. He (and I) believe my bf has made recent progress by vocally admitting guilt, embarrassment and remorse for doing things like blowing up at his brother in public, occasionally suggesting that his gambling addiction may be doing more harm than good, and making tiny moves toward requesting help from a therapist.

I'm trying to avoid mourning about this but it's increasingly difficult. Not to mention the fact that it's now Sunday and I know he's at the race track with his brother. A losing day would mean another two days of silence - even if we weren't fighting - combined with his inability to use his new phone. The last time he lost at the track, it seemed to mean a lot to him that I walk to his apartment and sit with him while he was depressed. Now, I have no idea what to do!

[Grey Kitty]

This is why I'm so confused. When there's no contact after a fight, I don't know if he's looking for space or punishing me.

... .  

Then how do I prevent these incidents? I don't want to break up, but I don't want to spend weeks of my life with a sense of unknowing on my shoulders. It would be a different story if I knew for a fact that, after a fight, he was avoiding me to cool down - heck, I go days without hearing from him when we're not fighting and it doesn't bother me - but it seems brutally unfair to leave someone in the dark.

You really can't know what is in his mind. But you do know that it is a disordered and hurting place. (Perhaps you should consider yourself lucky you don't know what is in there!)

You are correct--it is brutally unfair. Sadly, you can't stop him from doing it.

But the outcome (for you) is pretty much the same whether it is punishment or a (active and current) need for space:

If you seek him out and spend time him, it won't be pleasant. He'll either step out or be difficult or verbally abusive.

Your best bet is to find something fun/productive to do that doesn't need to involve him.

I'm trying to avoid mourning about this but it's increasingly difficult. Not to mention the fact that it's now Sunday and I know he's at the race track with his brother. A losing day would mean another two days of silence - even if we weren't fighting - combined with his inability to use his new phone. The last time he lost at the track, it seemed to mean a lot to him that I walk to his apartment and sit with him while he was depressed. Now, I have no idea what to do!

The other thing is to keep in mind your own attitude--if you take good care of yourself, you will be able to view him with some compassion... .  and feel as much need to make him understand how he is hurting you.

What does it mean to take care of yourself?

If you are completely hurt and upset, it will be very hard to be validating and loving in your next contact... .  and you may push him away again.

So reach out occasionally when you can do it and feel good about doing it... .  and see if you can find better things to do with your time than worry about him.

[nomoremommyfood]

The other thing is to keep in mind your own attitude--if you take good care of yourself, you will be able to view him with some compassion... .  and feel as much need to make him understand how he is hurting you... .  

I seem to be flipping between anger ("He KNOWS how much I hate this!", compassion ("That poor sick man... .  " and desperately missing him. Yesterday, I had to be talked out of proposing marriage - not only a terrible idea but concept I politically oppose - just because it might make it more difficult for him to pull the disappearing act.

Furthermore, what really infuriates me is that he gets the benefit of escaping from his problems by indulging in his compulsive gambling! As a former drug addict, I no longer get that mind-numbing "luxury"!

But, aside from feeling sorry for myself, I have a genuine question... .  

If you are completely hurt and upset, it will be very hard to be validating and loving in your next contact... .  and you may push him away again.

We're often told of the importance of validation. Conversely, we're also told that we shouldn't protect a pwBPD from the consequences of their actions. In some ways, I find this contradictory. For example, in a thread from a while ago, I was chastised as being "invalidating" for responding to my boyfriend's comment, "maybe I should just go home" with "If you want to go home, then do it." Likewise, if this were a person without BPD who was being rude, most people would call them out on it. To let the behavior continue unabated then approach him in a kind way when he's done something wrong seems sort of like coddling. Isn't the normal consequence of exercising rude behavior confrontation by an angry person?

Not that I'm planning on doing that (nor am I disagreeing with you; your help is worth its weight in gold!), I'm just noticing that sometimes the act of validation seems to negate normal consequences. Does this question make sense?

[Louise7777]

Nomore, I believe Grey Kitty is giving you great advice. She always does, actually. 

I want to ask you a question, you dont need to answer it here, if you dont like: why are you taking the role of a nurse? You are his girlfriend, not his therapist, not his caretaker.

As a girlfriend, you are supposed to be supportive (you are), but you are also entitled to have ur feelings respected, to feel happy and cared, to be in a "normal relationship". I say that cause I have been there too. I took the focus from me and put it on somebody else. And thats not healthy for you. Step back and think of YOU first. You are caught in a situation and you cant see clearly cause you are worrying too much about him. Yes, hes supposed to deal with the consequences of his choices (gambling, being rude to u, etc).

I wish u all the best. 

[Grey Kitty]

Nomore, I believe Grey Kitty is giving you great advice. She always does, actually. 

Thanks! I appreciate the compliment. I guess I really let my feminine, supportive side hang out on these boards ... .  and I've wanted to hang out and be "one of the girls" upon occasion ... .  however I am a guy!

I seem to be flipping between anger ("He KNOWS how much I hate this!", compassion ("That poor sick man... .  " and desperately missing him. Yesterday, I had to be talked out of proposing marriage - not only a terrible idea but concept I politically oppose - just because it might make it more difficult for him to pull the disappearing act.

Furthermore, what really infuriates me is that he gets the benefit of escaping from his problems by indulging in his compulsive gambling! As a former drug addict, I no longer get that mind-numbing "luxury"!

Your feelings are all over the map.    Do try to find something you can do that doesn't involve him and does make you feel better. (You've already noticed some ways of escaping that are err... .  less than helpful)

But, aside from feeling sorry for myself, I have a genuine question... .  

We're often told of the importance of validation. Conversely, we're also told that we shouldn't protect a pwBPD from the consequences of their actions. In some ways, I find this contradictory. For example, in a thread from a while ago, I was chastised as being "invalidating" for responding to my boyfriend's comment, "maybe I should just go home" with "If you want to go home, then do it." Likewise, if this were a person without BPD who was being rude, most people would call them out on it. To let the behavior continue unabated then approach him in a kind way when he's done something wrong seems sort of like coddling.

I understand your confusion... .  but they don't quite contradict each other.

Validation is simply expressing that you understand what the other person is saying or feeling. You don't have to agree with them to validate them.

Enabling (protecting someone from the consequences of their actions) usually refers to natural or external consequences... .  not your reaction. For example, if he stays up drinking and passes out at 4am, enabling would be busting your butt to get him up in the morning and appearing sober, or calling in to work sick for him.

Isn't the normal consequence of exercising rude behavior confrontation by an angry person?

Normal, perhaps. But not ideal. If somebody is rude and hurtful to me, I try not to be hurtful back. I may well steer clear of them to protect myself. I'm not a perfect  who never gets angry or confrontational, but I am striving to move more in that direction.

Here you do have a balance to strike: You want to be genuine and let him know when he does something that hurts you, especially if it is something big.

But you don't want to be invalidating, as that will make things worse with him.

The better you get at not taking his unpleasant actions personally, the easier it is for you.

[Louise7777]

LOL Grey Kitty! So sorry! I dont know what I was thinking! Please take it as a complimment! 

I guess Im traumatized with the silent treatment (and complimments that are actually insults) that I ended up believing men dont have empathy! Thats awfull!

You are a very caring man, congrats to you! 

[patientandclear]

A bit more on NMMF's question about allowing pwBPD to experience the natural consequences of their behavior, and not always jumping in to rescue the situation & make it OK.  Especially with regard to silent treatment. As a member here observed, the natural consequence of being pushed away, is that you are away.

I may start a new thread on my own extreme silent treatment situation and my uncertainty about how to deal with it. But I think NMMF has put her finger on one of the sources of confusion for me. I know, GK, that it DOES work to send a "ping" that essentially conveys "hey, the light is green here when & if you want to proceed."  It can alleviate their sense that you are probably unhappy with them, etc., & make clear they don't risk rejection by being back in touch.  I've done this with "good" results.

Except that he keeps leaving.

Doesn't it make sense to wait till they decide to "own" the situation, like NMMF's friend suggested, by deciding themselves that the separation isnot what they want & taking a step to convey that to us? Don't we need at least that for self-respect & for them to respect us?

[arabella]

Doesn't it make sense to wait till they decide to "own" the situation, like NMMF's friend suggested, by deciding themselves that the separation isnot what they want & taking a step to convey that to us? Don't we need at least that for self-respect & for them to respect us?

Well... .  P&C, I think you'd probably be the first person I would ask for advice on the subject, so I'm not sure how useful I'll be here. Here's my .02 anyway! I know this much: my dBPDh used the silent treatment on a former long-term GF; it started because he was depressed/confused, it continued because he didn't know if he was 'allowed' to get back in touch with her. So the lack of 'pings' were interpreted by H as being given the silent treatment. It took him over a year to work up the nerve to contact her and by that time it was too late (on her end - and I don't blame the woman in the least). He never did figure out that he had started the silent treatment in the first place - all he understood/remembered was that he got depressed and they stopped talking. He assumed she was mad at him for some of the crappy things he did when he first got really depressed (she was, but not that angry, she would have worked it out with him). Possibly something to consider?

As for the original question: how to tell if it's really 'silent treatment' or if it's a symptom of depression... .  I think it depends very much on the individual. With my pwBPD it's pretty much always depression. It's never really me, he just gets really withdrawn and angry - other people around him notice it too. As Grey Kitty says, it's very telling if they are 'normal' around others but "loudly" silent around us (that's true 'silent treatment'. In your case, Nmmf, it seems his friends are also noticing his behaviour changing for the worse.

A losing day would mean another two days of silence - even if we weren't fighting -

So you know that he does, in fact, use silence as a way to soothe himself. Why do you always assume that it's something you've done then (i.e. true silent treatment)? Don't start taking the blame for things just because you don't know. Assume the best and carry on making yourself happy until he comes around - at least you'll be in a more receptive mood when he finally does!

[Louise7777]

Patient, Im looking forward your thread on silent treatment. I began one not long ago myself. Im still enduring it for a month now. Any comment on the issue is highly appreciated.

[patientandclear]

Arabella, thanks so much for sharing that insight from your H.  (Thank goodness we have one another's partners & ex-partners for interpreters.)  Argh.  I am almost certain that is what's happening in my situation, and lots of times when the silent treatment gets extended by our pwBPD.  It's like they get stuck and don't know how to get back.

It just really bugs me to have to help someone stop being a big jerk.

One time (I posted about this months ago) when my guy was being a little distant, I sent him an email that started "what's the word, hummingbird?"  He wrote that he thought when he saw the word hummingbird that I was accusing him of acting like one -- zooming in, zooming away -- and was getting all defensive, when he read the whole message, realized I wasn't upset with him & everything was OK, and now he could breathe again, but was still a little traumatized. !  So, yeah.  They can readily believe you are upset with them when you aren't.

But ... .  but ... .  like NMMF says, aren't we thereby protecting them from the natural consequences of their actions? Rescuing?  In terms of lifelong impact, don't people have to stop doing this for them ever to want to deal with their dysfunction?  Which is not really my goal, but I certainly don't want to prevent necessary learning by intervening between my ex and a lesson, either.  Arabella, did your H actually learn something from the fact that, when he finally reached out, he realized she'd been open to hearing from him all along?  If so -- maybe she did him (and you?) a huge favor by not rescuing.

Cristina, just started the new thread.  It's called "I can't get comfortable."  (That could be the title of every thread I've ever posted here ... .  ).  Looking forward to advice there as I just keep spinning and spinning on this one.

Back to NMMF's situation ... .  if you are clear you are not at the point of being willing to let the r/s go over this behavior, NMMF, I would do what Grey Kitty (& I think Arabella) are recommending, and indicate a green light every so often.  Nothing long or heavy, just along the lines of "thinking of you, I'm here when and if you'd like to talk."  It does work -- if you can stomach it.

[nomoremommyfood]

Shoot, there are so many good topics to address, now - particularly regarding making one "own" their behavior. Unfortunately, I started writing this earlier and am now not only falling asleep but severed the tip of my finger while chopping broccoli. Typing is painful plus a finger swaddled in layers of gauze makes typing almost impossible. Forgive me if I can't provide a more insightful response!

Well, he called and we had a long conversation. It began calmly with him referencing the fight, saying he "wasn't mad at me" and not to "take it personally." I told him I wasn't upset about the fight but his silence afterward and that I didn't know if I was being punished or he needed time alone. Apparently, it was the later, and he assumed I'd be able to gauge that from the silliness of the fight. Unfortunately, prior experiences with BPD have left me unable to judge which incidents are truly innocuous.

Though the conversation eventually drifted into weekly-regurgitated subject matter (the typical "no one understands how bad I feel," "I'm scum... .  if you want to date scum, there's something wrong with you," "if you want to help, help me kill myself." I don't find his comments distressing - but hoped what seems to be a period of particularly acute pain might be a good time to suggest returning to DBT, rather than relying on his typical hope that winning at the track is the ultimate cure-all.

Grey Kitty, you mentioned "I might push him to attend an important event while in a "bad mood", but that is different." I wonder if you meant "push him to attend because the importance of the event trumps the mood" or something related to his personal growth. There' a wedding we're supposed to attend this weekend with attendees including most of my disapproving friends and I've been worried he'll back out.

Thanks so much for all your support! I'm so glad the roughest part seems to be over... .  though NOT glad about an unexpected injury to top it off!

[Grey Kitty]

Grey Kitty, you mentioned "I might push him to attend an important event while in a "bad mood", but that is different." I wonder if you meant "push him to attend because the importance of the event trumps the mood" or something related to his personal growth. There' a wedding we're supposed to attend this weekend with attendees including most of my disapproving friends and I've been worried he'll back out.

Yeah, attending a wedding just the sort of thing I'd probably push a little for. Here's my line of thinking:

You don't want to be with him when he's dysregulated and generally being horrible. So if he says he wants to go off on his own, you can expect to be happier without him present.

For something like a wedding, where having him just be there important, and I'd ask him to come along even if he was in a bad mood... .  especially if he was more likely to blow up after the wedding. If he is the sort to cause a public scene, that is something else to consider.

I guess what I'm getting at is that you are likely to "pay for it later" if you push him to be with you when he'd rather not. Think about whether it is worth it to you or not.

If you think he would later have regrets about not going, but it won't matter to you, that is looking like enabling again, and I'd try not to comment unless he asked me.

Does that make sense / work for you?

GK

[nomoremommyfood]

You don't want to be with him when he's dysregulated and generally being horrible. So if he says he wants to go off on his own, you can expect to be happier without him present. For something like a wedding, where having him just be there is important, and I'd ask him to come along even if he was in a bad mood... .  

Except, after months of asking him if it was okay to RSVP, apparently, even THAT ISN'T HAPPENING!

I'm sorry, I'm FURIOUS! And, if only curse words were allowed on this forum, they'd be all over the place... .  because having a mental illness is NOT a "get out of jail free" card!

Okay, prepare for a vent... .  (and I'm about to return to the concept of validation because... .  I hate to say it... .  but it's starting to feel like a real easy out for behavior that, under no normal circumstances, would be considered acceptable. And [vent continuing, cause I'm REAL pissed right now] it feels like the very behavior we "lovingly validate" with BPD would be considered unacceptable when exhibited by even other mentally ill people... .  hell, I'm an ex-junkie! I've been through in and out of institutions for years before I got my act together and I would STILL be held accountable for my actions! I had problems, I recovered, I did my time, and I was NEVER wrapped in the same gauze of sickness! Yeah, I skipped out on obligations and threw in the sick card... .  but I at least had the decency to think outside of myself enough to flip that very card!

By the way, to recap recent events, we made up after the prior fight. Had an excellent, honest, conversation wherein he admitted wanting to improve. He came over and he had... .  sexual relations a huge trigger). He invited me to a play a few nights later. I show up and get LAMBASTED for having the audacity to GET A HAIR CUT and wear "POINTY SHOES"... .  apparently, I'm suddenly so physically unappealing to him - and he NEEDS to be with a "hot girl" - that I "deserve" hours of being told I'm ugly, stupid, and have trapped him in a relationship for six years.

I admit, I took the bait. I fought back to keep my pride as he said he didn't love me anymore and wanted to be out of the relationship that, two days ago, he was healing. After hours, I finally moved to pure validation mode, still reeling about how he "loves at least five other women he knows more than me" and how I'm so "gaga" about him that - whatever he does - it will be followed by me texting him apologies. For anyone who's ever tried to be the bigger person in a fight, WHAT A SLAP IN THE FACE! I cooled down. I validated, validated, validated. Told him if he wants to skip the wedding, it's cool. He calmed down, I hugged him and told me he'd tell me he'd tell me on Friday if he'd come as my date to the wedding or not.

It's Friday. I don't even get a &*$%& response. IT'S A YES OR NO QUESTION!

But ... .  but ... .  like NMMF says, aren't we thereby protecting them from the natural consequences of their actions? Rescuing?  In terms of lifelong impact, don't people have to stop doing this for them ever to want to deal with their dysfunction? 

Yes. Yes we are protecting them from the natural consequences of their actions. We're told not to invalidate them, yet where's the reciprocity? We're told not to defend ourselves, yet how does this NOT enforce the inaccuracy of their illusions/barbs? I'm not just an angry (ex?)girlfriend, I've had a father and grandfather with this illness. "Validating" their experience of pain is all right and dandy... .  but someone in pain is still bound by the rules of human compassion we, ourselves, exert in spades.

Sorry for the rant but I've been looking forward to this wedding for months, drinking alone and debating what to say to both the people excited to see him and those judgmental of my staying with him ... .  more important, as a former addict and mental patient who's always done what's right even when my brain told me the opposite, I'm having a hard time condoning it in another mentally ill addict... .  who had a lot more support than I did! I lived with, sat in, owned my grief and embarrassment, and re-gained trust as a recovering heroin addict to my loved ones INCLUDING HIM! Yet, for some reason, his "I haven't ever loved you after six years" is met with "I understand... .  "

I'm sorry, but HOW is that realistic?

[Iced]

Hey NMMF, did your post get swallowed up in the quote?

To address this phrase:

Yet, for some reason, his "I haven't ever loved you after six years" is met with "I understand... .  "

I'm sorry, but HOW is that realistic?

Maybe it's more along the lines of, "I understand that you're feeling ABC and XYZ... .  Can we/Do you want to talk about it or are you not feeling well enough to talk right now?"

It isn't validating that they're RIGHT in their declarations, assumptions, whatevers.

It's validating the point that they are experiencing turbulent and tumultuous emotions which is provoking them to react so intensely and emotionally (or lack thereof)... .  no matter how unreasonable and irrational they may seem to us... .  but it isn't validating that you understand or even agree with their actual 'rationale'.

At least... .  from what I understand about validating.

When I was with my former BPD partner and we were having a bad time and weren't communicating right, sometimes they'd toss out things like, "You haven't come to visit me because you don't love me anymore!"

Which... .  was never true.

Validation from me sounded something like, "I understand that you feel really anxious about XYZ... .  Can we talk about this?"

Yes, it's entirely likely the conversation may go into a blame game as it can oftentimes do with pwBPD, but the validation is towards the fact that they are experiencing tumultuous emotions... .  not that what they're saying - their supposed reality of the situation - is valid.

Edit:  When I was with my former partner with BPD who was on the road to recovery, one of the things we strove to do was communicate more honestly and factually... .  but that only works since they were gaining self-awareness and growing into their non-BPD sense of self.

To expect 'accountability' out of someone who is overcome with BPD is both unrealistic and harmful - to both you and them.

To you because you will always be running circles wondering why someone who once meant so much to you can possibly do or say ABC and XYZ awful things etc... .  And because it makes so little reasonable sense, it is going to be confusing, hurtful, and can even be damaging to your own sense of self.

To them because confrontation without therapy is going to trigger them to dysregulate more... .  or pave the way to further enabling if boundaries are not enforced 'correctly'.

These relationships are definitely a major challenge for everyone involved.

[wdone]

Arabella, thanks so much for sharing that insight from your H.  (Thank goodness we have one another's partners & ex-partners for interpreters.)  Argh.  I am almost certain that is what's happening in my situation, and lots of times when the silent treatment gets extended by our pwBPD.  It's like they get stuck and don't know how to get back.

It just really bugs me to have to help someone stop being a big jerk.

One time (I posted about this months ago) when my guy was being a little distant, I sent him an email that started "what's the word, hummingbird?"  He wrote that he thought when he saw the word hummingbird that I was accusing him of acting like one -- zooming in, zooming away -- and was getting all defensive, when he read the whole message, realized I wasn't upset with him & everything was OK, and now he could breathe again, but was still a little traumatized. !  So, yeah.  They can readily believe you are upset with them when you aren't.

But ... .  but ... .  like NMMF says, aren't we thereby protecting them from the natural consequences of their actions? Rescuing?  In terms of lifelong impact, don't people have to stop doing this for them ever to want to deal with their dysfunction?  Which is not really my goal, but I certainly don't want to prevent necessary learning by intervening between my ex and a lesson, either.  Arabella, did your H actually learn something from the fact that, when he finally reached out, he realized she'd been open to hearing from him all along?  If so -- maybe she did him (and you?) a huge favor by not rescuing.

Cristina, just started the new thread.  It's called "I can't get comfortable."  (That could be the title of every thread I've ever posted here ... .  ).  Looking forward to advice there as I just keep spinning and spinning on this one.

Back to NMMF's situation ... .  if you are clear you are not at the point of being willing to let the r/s go over this behavior, NMMF, I would do what Grey Kitty (& I think Arabella) are recommending, and indicate a green light every so often.  Nothing long or heavy, just along the lines of "thinking of you, I'm here when and if you'd like to talk."  It does work -- if you can stomach it.

patient and clear, my bf thought i was referring to him once, when i sent him a text about a wounded bird i had found that day and had taken to a bird rescue! it took me a while to convince him i had not been referring to him. he thought that i had been saying he was a wounded bird and he was very defensive! wow!

[patientandclear]

Roger that, Wdone.  No more bird references!

That exchange about the hummingbird is actually the center of my current ambivalence about this r/s.  I really, really relate to your conundrum, NMMF.  Back at that point (of the "hummingbird" exchange), after posting here about it & reflecting whether I wanted to tell him it was f'd up to go silent on me or demonstrate that I accepted who he is and how he is, I answered that he could come & go as he pleased, and when he stayed, he could stay as long as he liked.  I felt so go saying this.  I felt at peace with reality and with him as he is.  He obviously also felt good hearing it.  We were in good shape after that for quite a while.  And that attitude became my guidepost for how to handle the r/s.

Except some things are bigger than just staying silent for a few days.  The degree of rupture he's caused this time is much greater.  Is it still true that he can come and go as he pleases?  And I'll still be here being warm and appreciative of him when he comes back?  After moving away when we were closest, informing me he was going to relocate permanently to another city, and cutting off communication for months after I asked questions about why he'd want to do that?  Even after he assured me he would never just disappear on me even if there was a problem?

Like NMMF is asking ... .  this is destructive behavior.  NMMF, what your partner said about being attracted to you is just not something you should have to hear from the person who loves you.  I'm really sorry.  I think your question about natural consequences is super important.  I really appreciate you sharing this story and pushing us on when hurtful behavior needs to be met with something other than or in addition to validation.

[almost789]

Haven't read all the posts here. But I have experienced significant silent treatment. I've never experienced this ever in my life prior to my person with BPD so when he first did it to me I felt as if I was abandoned in very cold and uncaring way. It lasted weeks and I was in severe mental and physical pain. ( I know extreme?) Well, prior to this we were in contact nearly every hour on the hour so it was a shock.

After suffering bouts of this for quite some time, I have become nearly immune to it, and in turn it has lessened. At first I believe for my case it was punishment. Punishment for abandoning him, puninshment for confronting him. Now the bouts are much shorter and I believe it is just him coping with difficult emotions that he doesn't want me to see. Or doesn't want to take out on me, so he goes silent when he's overwhelmed, doesn't know what to say or is angry. I have found the only way to deal with it is know that if he loves you, he'll be back. Relax, chill, take care of yourself and await that return.

The ping's I usually do myself, it does give him the 'green' that yes, if I come back I won't be rejected. I know this because most times nowadays is an immediate response from him after I ping him. (love that description, btw, whoever made that term up) Of late he, actually pings me on occassion but damn if I happen to not be around when he pings and do not answer immediately I think he withdraws again for a bit. If I respond immediately then we can interact.

[arabella]

NMMF - what a load of crap he dumped in your lap! Sorry you had to deal with that.

Iced makes a good point. Yes, validating is important, but you should not validate the invalid. So you can validate that he feels a certain way, but you don't have to agree. And just because you are validating doesn't mean there are no consequences. You can say, "I hear you. You feel terrible. You don't feel that you love me very much right now." You are also perfectly justified in adding, "I don't want to be in a r/s with someone who doesn't love me. I am going to leave you alone to think about this some more. I'll call you tomorrow." Or whatever you feel is best for you.

As for the wedding... .  You can't make him go. You may be able to coerce him into it but it's up to you to decide if it's even worth it at this point - he might just make the whole experience more miserable. As for consequences - don't make excuses for him. If he isn't going it's up to him to send his regrets. If people ask where he is, just tell the truth - he didn't feel up to coming. If they press for more tell them that they'll have to ask him directly because you don't really know. He can deal with it. And he can deal with you being pissed off about it. And he can deal with you not wanting to hang out with someone who cancels on an important date at the last minute. Consequences.

I hear what you're saying too about mental illness not being an excuse. You're right, it's not. It's an explanation, not an excuse. You don't have to put up with it. But if you stay then you have to radically accept that this is the reality. The nature of the illness is such that, for the most part, he can't see he has a problem. I almost think that addictions are easier to deal with (and that's saying a lot) - at least there is a physical thing to point to and eliminate. With BPD the denial is part of the dysfunction, whereas addiction doesn't depend on the person being in denial of the problem.

[nomoremommyfood]

Sorry for my last post ending up in such a baffling format - I was furious when writing it and more than a little drunk.

I waiting all night Friday tabout the wedding he PROMISED to attend months ago. He also knew I had an early work event and my route to the hard-to-get to wedding hall hinged on his answer. I called, finding a man who claimed he was too depressed to get out of bed at a wild party having the time of his life! Between putting down the phone to joke around with half-his-age friends, he now needed directions... .  but was would call at 2AM before this aging hipster scum hit the next party. 2AM came and went. I called and texted, desperately wanting to just give him the information said he needed, watching my hours of sleep before a big day slip by, sobbing and wanting to go to bed so badly but not knowing what to do. Exhausted, baffled and imagining his "just go on pretending your my girlfriend and I'll start picking up mistresses on the side" happening at that moment. Finally, he texted from the karaoke bar. He called at 5am, leaving me with about 4 hours of sleep... .  he'd decide in the morning. Puke, puke, vomit.

Naturally, he waited until a few hours before we were supposed to leave to back out with an ultimatum: "If I go to the wedding, I'm dumping you afterward." And, of course, I "validated" his pain, feeling of pressure, and discomfort. Exactly in the right manner, calm, lowered voice, understanding. We amicably got off the phone.

I'm very much in agreement with Patience. This guy effectively spent three days verbally abusing me, leading me on, depriving me of sleep, and reneging on his promise. Anyone else - including any other mentally ill patient - who did that would be risking a slap in the face! Yet, because this man has BPD, he gets "I understand you're going through a lot"? How is that a consequence? How is that not hiding him from the effects of his behavior? What did he learn from that experience that can help him improve or does it not just seem like he got a free pass to treat me like a doormat? Where is our pride?

I'm not saying validation isn't effective - it helped a few days ago to calm him down. But at what point do we stand up for our own dignity? My instinct is to give him a taste of his own medicine... .  blow him off for the foreseeable future, scare him a little. Yet I'm not supposed to incite his "fear of abandonment"... .  though, apparently, inciting my jealousy trigger (and saying I'm ugly!) is somehow par for course. When do THEY face the facts?

By the way, while I dreading the embarrassment of showing up stag to the wedding, I had a blast.

[VeryFree]

Hi nomoremommyfood

They will not face the facts, because that's their illness all about. Shame, scared to be left, bounding and so on.

Validating them isn't all about their feelings. It's about our safety and our dignity: we will not win anything by invalidating. We have the chance to lose a lot. I know: I didn't validate and didn't bring myself into safety. Things went from bad to worse.

By validating we could calm them down and bring piece to our r/s and ourselves. If that's the way we want to live is to every individual himself.

If I had known back then about these boards I would have tried. If I had the opportunity right now to go back to her and try again I wouldn't.

Being out of the r/s was and is hard. But there are a lot of positive things (freedom, no more fear, no abuse) that are worth a lot more right now.

[123Phoebe]

I'm not saying validation isn't effective - it helped a few days ago to calm him down. But at what point do we stand up for our own dignity? My instinct is to give him a taste of his own medicine... .  blow him off for the foreseeable future, scare him a little. Yet I'm not supposed to incite his "fear of abandonment"... .  though, apparently, inciting my jealousy trigger (and saying I'm ugly!) is somehow par for course. When do THEY face the facts?

Hi NMMF,

Validation is only one tool, there are many others like time outs, avoiding circular arguments, no JADEing, distance to regain our own equilibrium... .  

If your instinct is to get some distance from him, then that might be the road to take right now.   Not 'to give him a taste of his own medicine'-- To create a quiet thinking space for yourself.  That is a natural consequence to crappy behavior.  His fear of abandonment does not supersede what you need to lead a safe and fulfilling life.

Understanding our partner's behaviors let's us know what's going on with them, gives us insight into the mental illness.  How the manifestations of the illness affects us is what we have control over and where our focus needs to be. 

When we take care of ourselves in the face of madness, while respecting the illness (like we would a tornado warning), an interesting thing happens... .    Our partners feel our strength and learn to respect us more, because we're respecting ourselves AND them by not adding fuel to the fire.