The further I've distanced myself, the more I see...

[mcc503764]

I've been in the BPD dance with my x wife for years.  It truly rips me apart.  For the past year, we have recycled numerous times and quite frankly I am sick of it!

The games, the lies, the manipulation, the selfishness of the entire thing, I am fed up.  And unfortunately why does it have to get to this point for me to make a change?  To break this cycle?  I don't want to be mean, or angry, because I truly believe that weighs you down too much.  That's part of the suffocation that I still feel from the r/s. 

I'm fed up with her BS.  Time in, time out she follows the same pattern.  She ropes me in with her words/actions, essentially "hooks" me and then slowly starts to fade away making me feel as if I did something wrong?

No consistancy in her actions, condradicts everything she says / does.  Talks about how much better I look and how good I do when she's not in my life, what is she trying to make me feel guilty for attempting to move forward with my life?

And everytime, I tell myself that I can have LC with her, love her from afar... . but the harsh reality of the situation is that I cannot.

The jealousy and pain that I allow this person to put me through is malicious.  I just can't take anymore of this! 

[hithere]

she trying to make me feel guilty for attempting to move forward with my life?

At some point the blame can not be only on her shoulders... . it takes two to tango and you need to figure out how to stop going back.  Are you in therapy?

[mcc503764]

I was in therapy for awhile and it was effective for me.  But unfortunately, my therapy got to the point where we came to an impass and werent able to go any further.

I still practice and hold on to the words of my therapist though.  But I guess there is something in me that says I can prove my love for this woman if I can just put myself aside and remain "understanding of her illness?"

I know that this is not healthy for me, and essentially it is hurting me more than anything else!

I guess it has to do with my own definition of love... . love at ALL costs?

UGH!

[eniale]

"I guess it has to do with my own definition of love... . love at ALL costs"

If it is really love, yes, e.g., being the caregiver for a very ill partner where you have had a real, mutual love, by all means, love at ALL costs.

But if the person has BPD, chances are they cannot love at all, they want love, they can fall in and out of "love" but in my experience they cannot BE in love or STAY in love.  "Falling in love" is easy; often it is really falling in lust.  But real love means commitment, something pwBPD have a problem with as they fear real intimacy.

I believe it was Eric Fromme who said words to this effect:  "If you love another, and that love is not returned, then it is a misfortune."

That was my experience with loving my ex pwBPD, it was a misfortune.

[mcc503764]

Thanks for the words, I appreciate them!  And while I do not want to be angry, mad, and full of hate, perhaps that's what I need to push me to push her out of my life?

But she is ill? Mentally?  What kind of person am I if I simply walk away?  I know that I have to save myself and I cannot keep doing this to myself, but at what point do I simply give up?

[eniale]

I think you said you had been in therapy... . then you seem to question if your wife is mentally ill... .   I had no idea my ex had BPD.  Have a wonderful therapist.  Based on my description of our relationship, she recommended I research BPD.  Exact match for all his troubling behaviors.  So, would recommend you find a therapist who specializes in BPD (although mine did not, she is just excellent T.)  You might also want to get the book "Walking on Eggshells" (I just ordered it) -- my saying I was always walking on eggshells gave my therapist first clue of what I was dealing with.

You also say "I just can't walk away."  If you have young kids, this is a tough one.  Again, a good therapist would help, also speaking to a lawyer, but not just any lawyer, you need one who specializes in family law.  If you do have to leave, and if your kids are old enough to understand, perhaps you could have a long talk with them.  Do not let things escalate.  Best advice I can think of is talking to a therapist; mine does not like to diagnose without meeting the person but did recommend that I research BPD.  I had heard of it, but never thought of that as reason for his behavior, but it is a perfect match on many scores.  Good luck.  Keep reading all the posts here; you will get support and learn a lot.

[mcc503764]

This is my x wife.  We divorced in 2011, but continue this dance well after the fact, so a lawyer isnt the issue.  Needless to say, my x is a therapist! so perhaps that's why I am having trouble actually finding someone who can help me out of this spiderweb that my x still keeps me in!  thoughts?

[eniale]

You said your x is a therapist?  I know someone who had a psychotherapy practice and used to lead a discussion group I was in.  She was a friend, now a former friend.  She was a wonderful teacher, we all agreed, but it was astonishing how she never put what she taught to use in her private life.  I know her well, and now think she has NPD.  So just because a person is a therapist, doesn't not mean they can't have a disorder themselves.  Also, there are all kinds of "therapists" with all kinds of training.  My therapist has a doctorate in psychology.

[TippyTwo]

This is my x wife.  We divorced in 2011, but continue this dance well after the fact, so a lawyer isnt the issue.  Needless to say, my x is a therapist! so perhaps that's why I am having trouble actually finding someone who can help me out of this spiderweb that my x still keeps me in!  thoughts?

MCC,

Einstein once said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Kind of sums up what the recycling in BPD amounts to.

From what I have experienced, my road to recovery started when I took back my personal power... . the power to say NO. No more.

It meant I had to go NC to get out of the fog and dysfunctional stuff. It meant taking responsibility for me and my own well being. It meant not seeing myself as a victim but as a survivor. It meant not focusing on what they were doing to me but what I was doing to me. It also meant I had to stop finding excuses as to why I couldn't stop the madness. I could. And, I did.

Plenty of help is available out there. Deciding when you are ready to use it is up to you.

[babyducks]

 MCC   

“Relationships are like glass. Sometimes it's better to leave them broken than try to hurt yourself putting it back together.”

You can make this different.  You can stop dancing.  You can learn to respond in ways that do not rattle your emotional center. 

Its not easy.  It involves changing you not her.   You are not responsible for her or her illness.  She is. 

You can learn to see the spider webs, identify them for they are and walk around them instead of into them.

Keep posting.  Keep reading.   Do something that puts yourself, your health, your peace of mind first today.

babyducks

[MontyD]

Hi MCC,

This How I saw the problem of being in a relationship with a pwBPD.

All my life I worked in engineering, a trouble shooter in chemical plants, oil refineries etc.

So I applied my mechanical skills to myself and BPD.

Identify the problem. 

I was given a clue, a place to start, when my ex's therapist suggested I read up on BPD.  I did, and my ex ticked all the boxes, but I never saw her go into a rage.  Everything else was there, a classic case of BPD. Later her therapist confirmed what I had seen over a period of about 8 months.

The ex was a BPD person, with some traits of NPD.

At this point I knew what the problem was. The mystery of the push / pull was revealed. The closer she became emotionally involved with me the more she pushed me away. She was terrified of being intimate but sexually she appeared to be intimate but I believe that during sex she was shut down emotionally.  Intensity in sex replaced intimacy.

After reading all I could about BPD, I made the decision to leave the relationship. I was having such a terrible time.  She knew she had BPD, and I told her at the end that if she ever got fixed, I may return.

That was 80 days ago.  And 80 days of strictly N/C.  It helps but is not the complete answer.

The next problem was, is, why do I want her back, knowing the insurmountable problems that would entail, I figured that I should find the reason why I needed to go back.

This lead me to research myself and I discovered "Trauma Bonding", "Stockholm Syndrome".

I think, reading the boards here, this is where we get stuck.  Being in an abusive relationship with a BPD, and that is what it is, Abusive, it alters our minds.  Wonderful highs then suddenly extreme lows in a matter of a few minutes.  I experienced that roller coaster many times. This creates the "Trauma Bond".

Now I know why I want to go back, I have renewed my appointments with my therapist and I'm going back Tuesday to address the "Trauma Bonding" with the hope I can put all this behind me with as little pain as possible.

Monty

[eniale]

Monty --

Is "Trauma Bonding" a book?  I am reading a lot on this subject, but haven't heard of this one.  Very interesting concept.  I, too, had a year of extreme ups and downs.  Like all others on these boards, devastating pain.  Now have 3 mos. NC & doing a lot better, but find I am constantly finding more new and helpful information, which is helping w/healing, & if this is a book, would like to read it.

[findingmyselfagain]

MC,

I was only engaged to my exunBPDgf for a few months, 9 months total in r/s, and 3 years later it still blows my mind how someone could fall in love and then leave on a dime. What's helped me the most is to keep pushing away and finding out who I am. Through therapy, reading and bpdfamily, I figured out a lot of why the borderline dynamic, honeymoon especially was so attractive to me. It was a part of a larger pattern.

Accepting the mental illness wasn't easy for me either. I wanted to believe in love, that if I worked hard, then the other person would also work hard. Borderline personality is a very serious condition, so "love" or "kindness" cannot stop the dynamic. She also had a child that called me "daddy" who I really bonded with. I believe that's a lot of why it was so difficult for me to get through the aftermath of depression and rumination. I think her baby is definitely getting the short end of the stick as I know she's been with at least 3 men, if not more.

In a way I see her as kind of like a tornado. You can exhaust yourself trying to understand the nature of a tornado until you know everything there is to know but it doesn't change the nature of the tornado or make the tornado itself any less destructive. All you can do is learn to heed the warnings and take shelter! Understanding BPD doesn't change the nature of BPD. It's up to the sufferer to either be self-aware and take responsibility and heal, or not. If the r/s isn't do-able, it's up to us to move on and let nature (BPD) take its course. I hope one day my ex seeks help and I believe I could reconcile to some degree then, but for now she'll only keep replaying the vicious cycle, and there's no reason for me to play that game.

[spaceace]

Thanks for the words, I appreciate them!  And while I do not want to be angry, mad, and full of hate, perhaps that's what I need to push me to push her out of my life?

But she is ill? Mentally?  What kind of person am I if I simply walk away?  I know that I have to save myself and I cannot keep doing this to myself, but at what point do I simply give up?

I completely understand this point. I have felt the same exact thing about my wife. I refused to walk away.

Until now... . when she filed a restraining order against me as I begged her to come back to our marriage. She went to the courts saying I was harassing her. I didn't believe she would file. This is our 3rd split in a 4 year marriage. She threatened this each time we split up.

Something in her was triggered the first two times, and she came back. During the first two times, she threatened to file charges but didn't do it.

Now, I have to go to court and explain my actions to a judge. And as I sit her thinking about this, I am looking at this from a judges perspective, and the same question keeps popping up in my mind... . Why didn't you understand and believe her when she said to not contact her?

My answer? I know my wife is ill... . what kind of husband would I be if I just up and walked away? So, I tried and tried and tried some more... . and she refused my advances trying to understand why she was ending the marriage.

How does one explain to a judge, she painted me black, went NC and refused to communicate with me? When you step back and look at it... . realistically and logically, I was wrong... . I should have left her alone... . but I know about BPD... . and I know my wife has struggled her whole life, and I know, even though she has not been formally diagnosed, (at least I don't think she has) I know, she has stated to me, she is afraid she has a Personality Disorder... .

so what does one do?

One stops and takes care of them self, and take the threats seriously before it escalates to a whole other level... .

[MontyD]

Monty --

Is "Trauma Bonding" a book?  I am reading a lot on this subject, but haven't heard of this one.  Very interesting concept.  I, too, had a year of extreme ups and downs.  Like all others on these boards, devastating pain.  Now have 3 mos. NC & doing a lot better, but find I am constantly finding more new and helpful information, which is helping w/healing, & if this is a book, would like to read it.

Eniale, I just did Google searches on "Trauma Bonding", "Trauma Bond", "Trauma bonding and BPD / NPD",  and "Stockholm Syndrome", and read everything I could.  I'm sure on the pages I read there were links to books on the subject.

I soon worked out that the Abuse we get subjected to, does change our way of thinking in an attempt to maintain our own sanity,  thus we form the Trauma Bond.  This creats the desire to return to the abuser.

Monty

[mcc503764]

Everyone thinks that I am the stupidest person on the face of the earth.  I feel stupid.  My logical mind tells me to get the f**k out, run away as fast as I can, and never look back!  My heart tells me the complete opposite.

We've "reconnected" several times over the past few years and every time with the same results.  This time, she has come back with this "total honesty" approach?  Really, is she serious?

She has openly admitted, or so she wants me to believe, that she dates multiple different men.  She has been using men to take her out to dinners, etc... . She has admitted to her hatred towards men.  What in my right mind thinks that I would be any different?

I spent time with her this past week, just about two days and ultimately ended up in an intimate situation.  She is down to about 105 lbs and feels like a skeleton.  This along with her history of anorexia, bulimia hospitalizations really makes me sick to my stomach as I am watching this person discentrigate (sp).

She is a therapist, so she knows.  She talks about her "engulfment" fears, and how she is terrified of everything. 

I am not a psych, but I lived with this.  I know what I experienced when I was married to her, and throughout the 4 years that I've known her.  Of course I've read the DSM IV and obviously she fits the "criteria," so I don't need to convince myself of anything to justify my interpretation of events with her.

Watching what has become of her, hurts me.  Plain and simple.  I guess it's always easy for everyone else to say "walk away," but when your in it, you have NO idea.  I feel like I can't explain it in a way that anyone understands!  I know about therapy, I've gone that route.  I work, I exercise daily, I take care of myself.  Guess I just feel that accepting what she truly is, is what is keeping me in this place. 

I guess I am still obviously in the FOG, so to speak.  I am afraid of truly going NC, because there will always be the "what if's" in my mind.  "What if" I were more patient, "What if" she recovers and is a viable person again, "What if" I further her self admitted adbandonment (sp) issues by walking away?  I still feel "obligated" to her as if she were still my wife.  I know that feeling is what is holding me back.

Obviously the "guilt" kills me as well.  How much of a person do I feel like if I can't stand by her (or as close as she will allow me to).  "What if" she gets hurt in living this life and making the choices that she is making with herself, (so she says?)

She has always used jealously as a weapon against me.  It cuts, it's malicious.  I know that it strikes me on a core level, directly related to my own personal self esteem issues.  I am working on these issues daily for myself.  I know that this is truly "one day at a time," and I know what I have to do, but these are the struggles that I face with her.

Thoughts?

[TippyTwo]

MCC,

Sounds to me like you are back to bargaining stage. The what ifs, the yeah buts, look pretty obvious.

I also see a lot of rescue stuff. pwBPD are survivors.

We all know what this confusion is like. We have all been there. We all struggle with the same issues. We have all experience the same ambivalence. We know.

Best I can suggest is... . get back to therapy. The impasse you spoke about in therapy may have been more of resistance given the ambivalence you are now talking about.

Any contact with the pwBPD can throw our lives back into total chaos. Try stepping back, go NC, give yourself some time to regain your footing, and to detach from the emotional turmoil.

Trust your head.

[karhues]

MCC you are not stupid - that much I know!  I too was recycled by my ex-husband.  Once again he has left with my replacement - I could see the cycle completing itself again and I tried to stop it with all my mite but could not.  I got myself into therapy when I knew the end was coming - I was preparing myself - the shear torment of losing him is crippling.  I too exercise, eat right, go to weekly therapy, go to work everyday and take college classes.  My head tells me NC but my heart not so much.  I miss him when I should not - I should rejoice - my life is so peaceful.  Ah but I feel so empty with out him in my life.  I too tried to rescue him over and over again - but in the end I was the one broken and confused.

We had everything - the home, 2 children, great careers - 5 years post the divorce -  2 children divided - our 20 year old bipolar lives with him and I have the youngest.  He's lost his job yet again - the child support has stopped and life is a struggle. 

Our youngest who's 17 told me when we got back together that "He will hurt you again"  She knew - she could see her father's true nature- but I could not - when I want to call him I think to myself - would I tell her to go back to a man who'd done what he's done - absolutely not!

We know what is best for us and NC truly is - but the question is how?   

I read a lot of quotes about being positive and like you take one day at a time sometimes even a moment at a time! 

[karhues]

Hi - I had one more thing in common with what you said:

"I'm fed up with her BS.  Time in, time out she follows the same pattern.  She ropes me in with her words/actions, essentially "hooks" me and then slowly starts to fade away making me feel as if I did something wrong?"


He did the same thing - the patterns are always the same.  You resist for awhile because you know what will happen in the end - it always does!  He too hooked me - I resisted for awhile - but it felt so right - like going home -and yes little by little they fade away.  Ug - I tell my therapist that I'm a life time client!  I was the strong one - the happy one - the one that could fix everything - now I'm a shell of the person I once was trying to figure out how the hell to move on.  Everyday I think of him - how sad is that - he's off having a grand time with multiple girlfriends and I'm stuck!

[babyducks]

  I am afraid of truly going NC, because there will always be the "what if's" in my mind.  "What if" I were more patient, "What if" she recovers and is a viable person again, "What if" I further her self admitted adbandonment (sp) issues by walking away?  I still feel "obligated" to her as if she were still my wife.  I know that feeling is what is holding me back.

Obviously the "guilt" kills me as well.  How much of a person do I feel like if I can't stand by her (or as close as she will allow me to).  "What if" she gets hurt in living this life and making the choices that she is making with herself, (so she says?)

Thoughts?

MCC,

You asked for thoughts.  I am not an expert, but have had some experience with what you describe.

I can hear the turmoil in what you write, and I am sorry you have to go through this.   I can see you have a lot of rough stuff going on.  I also see that you are giving it your all.   

You are to be commended for doing everything in your power to help and support the person you care deeply for.   

That line in the sand, where our help and support becomes too detrimental to our own well being is a very personal decision, we have all reached that decision in our own unique ways. 

I would suggest that the what ifs that you listed here are pretty poignant.  What if she recovers and becomes a viable person again?   How sad and telling it is that you need to ask that question.   I also notice that your what if questions focus attention on her.

What is it you need?   What is happening to you, while this struggle goes on?  How much of your own identity is being lost in the storm?   Is living in a constant state of crisis really the best gift you can give both of you?

Boundaries or as I prefer to call them borders can help.  How do you feel about her dating multiple different men while also relying on you to meet some of her needs?   Are you okay with that?

I would suggest that since she is a therapist,   she knows how to find help if she is ready and willing to explore it.   As you have pointed out its not education or resources that is keeping her from working on her issues, it's probably fear and shame and you have no impact on that.

Take some time to carefully and thoughtfully work you way through this.   It has been my personal experience that this type of relationship can escalate quickly to very serious places that have significant consequences. 

I wish you and yours all the best.   

[Clearmind]

Thanks for the words, I appreciate them!  And while I do not want to be angry, mad, and full of hate, perhaps that's what I need to push me to push her out of my life?

But she is ill? Mentally?  What kind of person am I if I simply walk away?  I know that I have to save myself and I cannot keep doing this to myself, but at what point do I simply give up?

Its these mixed feelings of, I don't want to do this anymore and then not being to walk away because of guilt that gets us to a point of complete resentment. This is possibly where you are right now.

MCC, the steps to detach need to be lead by you for you - when we rely on a mentally ill person to do it for us we do become impossibly resentful.

You hold the key to unhook yourself - Its your responsibility to extract yourself - you are giving a lot of power over to another person. What do you want for your life?

[mcc503764]

Thank you so much for your kind words.  I am a state of disbelief once again.  I feel like my heart has been ripped out of my chest again.

She ultimately got what she needed again, and once that was done, she played the same game and used the same lines.  "Self-care, I've gotta work on me and get my things together."  Same lines that she has been using the entire time I have known her!  

Oh, but here's the kicker... . she actually told me last night that "when she feels that she is in the place to be friends with me, that she will let me know!"

All I could say was "wow!"  So in essence, when it's convenient for you, you'll let me know?

I am proud of myself, because I did stand up to her.  I very respectfully told her I cannot accept that in my life.  I deserve respect and will not tolerate this.  As always, in that r/s everything revolved around her and I cannot accept that!

Oh, and another... . "I love you too much to put you through this?"  

I guess that's been my biggest impass, as I always thought that if you loved someone, really loved someone, then you would make it work.

I am feeling horrible right now.  Everyone was right, but I wanted to believe in her so much and prove that I could make it work with this person!  Jesus, what did I ever do to get wrapped up in this mess?

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[cal644]

I too have been hooked in so many times - I know I should run, the hate and rage I have seen since I had filed is unlike anything I thought possible, but then things seem to get civil and I try to reach out, then wham - I see clearly how she is mentally ill, but then she convinces me shes not - even when she has told me too many things that show me that even she has an idea she has issues, but then a day or two latter she denies it.  I know I shouldn't even try - but then she hooks me in sometimes with nice comments sometimes by trying to attack or hurt me.  Why is it that I still beleive I am strong enough to help her - when I know only she can help herself after years and years of work, which I don't think she has the will to do.