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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
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Author Topic: 21-day stay at a Dual Diagnosis Center - progress  (Read 16002 times)
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« on: May 31, 2013, 03:05:12 PM »

Hi... . I've actually never posted a topic on any Board, except for my Introduction story on the New Members Board. If anyone is interested in why I came here in the first place in April 2013, here is my Introduction: This Board is saving my son's recovery  But, in a nutshell, my adult son's recent diagnosis of BPD in April after a 21-day stay at a Dual Diagnosis Center, and the Center's discharge paperwork giving me this website's address, started me on our journey to his recovery. And, for the record, he is still doing very well  Smiling (click to insert in post)

In fact, his very recovery process in going so well is what brought me to this morning, and a new revelation for me. My son (36 years old) has been getting Neurofeedback T sessions since April 18th on a very intensive basis. At this point he goes at least 4 times per week, sometimes 5; the intensity is because he not only is dealing with Low Functioning BPD, but has been diagnosed (15 years ago) with ADD, Clinical Depression, Social Anxiety, Hyperactive Thyroid, with resulting Suicidal Ideation and Substance Abuse that have been under control now since the end of February. His NF T has a lot to work with here (hahahaha!) and is doing a wonderful job. My son really likes her a lot, and loves the T. He is making changes and progress by leaps and bounds, and is sober and non-suicidal and feeling better every day.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

So much so, that I now forget almost all the time that he is still in recovery, and is not thinking "normally" like you or me. Our conversations (which sometimes include my H, his Dad, when he's home from work) are so lively and fun and enlightening, his intelligence finally shining through again after his long, 17-year long descending into his skewed-cognizant abyss, that I tend to talk to him with the playful banter that I use with all of my closest relatives and friends. Even though the Validation and S.E.T. and DEARMAN communication techniques I learned here since signing on were the reasons that we changed our relationship for the better, enabling him to be freed up enough mentally to agree to all his recovery Ts, I don't actually use them 100% of the time (forgetting he's still "thinking crazy" sometimes, as he tells me).

This morning, he had to go mow the lawn (he hates doing it, but was resigned to do it because he knew he had to). I was good... . woke him up with a suggestion ("You might want to do it sooner rather than later, since it's going to be so hot outside later on in the day", and he got himself up and came downstairs resignedly--not happily--but did make it out of bed and downstairs (this is new for him; in the past he would procrastinate doing an undesirable task to the point of maybe accomplishing it before he had to go to bed at night. No joke.)

This was good, and typical of his new (better!) behavior since starting NFT. I was impressed, relieved and happy. When he went to get some breakfast, he ended up grabbing at least 3 fruit danishes from the freezer to pop into the microwave, and I reacted by saying (as non-judgmentally as possible): "Try not to have TOO many; you know that too much sugar isn't a good thing... . " The look on his face was so irritated, so despondent, so depressed, that I realized immediately I'd said something wrong, but couldn't figure out why. Then I realized that this was "the look" that I haven't seen since April, "the look" that says: "You hurt my feelings. I can't do anything right. I'm always disappointing you. I suck... . I wish I didn't do stuff like this... . "

After he went outside and mowed the lawn (more of it than he'd been asked to by my H, doing a wonderful job of it without complaining or recklessly wheeling around with the riding mower), I figured out my mistake. I'd somehow invalidated and criticized him by trying to give healthy, motherly advice. And, in the scheme of things, I should have just let him be, because what he was doing RIGHT was more important than a few danishes when he should've been having something healthier. Luckily for me, when he finished the lawn about 75 minutes later, he came into the house with a smile and I could praise him for a job well done and validate for him "Yes, it sure IS hot out there and you DESERVE a long shower to cool off... . "

And just for the record, in the "old days" before this recovery process, he would've come back in the house with the most SOUR look on his face, dragging up the stairs noisily and slamming the bathroom door on his way into the shower. No wonder I keep forgetting that he isn't fully recovered yet Smiling (click to insert in post)




Here's more: Good News, Breakthroughs & TLCs (and it's not just about my son  Smiling (click to insert in post) )

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Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 03:48:28 PM »

We are fairly new to this BPD game but I understand the emotions you are describing!  It is great to hear though that you son is doing so much better!  I will pray that the progress continues!  And as a parent, it is so hard to always remember to say and do exactly the right thing.  You are not alone!
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 09:47:16 PM »

We are fairly new to this BPD game but I understand the emotions you are describing!  It is great to hear though that you son is doing so much better!  I will pray that the progress continues!  And as a parent, it is so hard to always remember to say and do exactly the right thing.  You are not alone!

Thanks for the kind words, BioAdoptMom3   You are so right; as a parent I find that I sometimes forget to be "mindful" and just blurt out whatever I think is right or funny or whatever  Smiling (click to insert in post)  But, I have to say that the techniques I've learned from this site, and from all of the many Posters here, have been invaluable and life-saving for my family. Good luck to you with your DD 
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 08:17:10 PM »

RR what a wonderful story   I am sitting here in a sort of 'disbelief' it sounds so good... . and now I am feeling a tad teary too. Your story is such a blessing. It is so hopeful that at 36 things can be turned around with what seems like a short time frame. Of course it is a work in progress, but to see progress must be so wonderful. Yes, I admit it, I am a little jealous   but really I am so happy for you.

If you gave us your insight into how things have worked for you from time to time on the boards here, that would be so helpful and uplifting for us. You know how hard it is when our kids don't have treatment and don't want to accept treatment? Well your success with the tools you learnt here can help us too.

Me, my dd is diagnosed as PTSD, due I think to her claim of a lifetime of abuse by me, according to her T. So, of course while she is in treatment, it is not optimal... .

thanks,

Vivek

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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 09:16:43 PM »

Hi, Vivek     And thanks for your thoughts... . If I was not living this recovery in my own house, I would not believe it, either  Smiling (click to insert in post) If anyone reads my first Post on the Newbie Board, they would see the life my son had been living prior to his suicide ideation (the last of many in the last 17 years) that landed him in the Dual Diagnosis Center in March of this year. And they would see the horror I'd been living, and the tension that was starting right after he got home, before I logged onto this site and learned how to not "push his buttons" that led to the tension. Honest to God~~This site and then the subsequent Neurofeedback Therapy truly made the difference this time, which was the third time he was discharged from a rehab program. Of course, the fact that this 3rd program addressed his mental health issues (finally!) also made the difference... .

Somehow, finding out about the BPD diagnosis set off some change of understanding or attitude for my son, and he spent the 21 days in the Center reading the library of psychological information they had there, and he was just so ready to "get better" after he got out, that when he was offered the NFT, he jumped at it. It's not for everybody, I know. Insurance doesn't cover it, so it can really run into some money for someone who doesn't have any extra to work with (we had an unexpected Federal Refund this year, and are spending that). If the patient isn't interested in doing it, or doesn't think he/she has a problem that needs to be solved, then it will take longer. And, my son isn't working right now (and I just recently retired), so getting him to his many appointments is not a hardship (his car was totaled in February, which led to a series of subsequent bad decisions on his part while we were on a 2 week vacation in FL, which then led to his last suicide contemplation. Which means I am taking him to the appointments). And, geographically this is a piece of cake: his NF T is only 15 minutes from home  Smiling (click to insert in post)

And, I DO have an update... . After his last NFT appointment on Saturday (his next one is tomorrow, Tuesday), we chatted in the car on the way home. Up to that time, any time someone asked him if he thought NFT was helping him, he'd say he wasn't sure; that he liked it, and felt great after having each session, but he wasn't sure how much it was helping him. Of course, his Dad and I (and everyone who knows him!) can visibly see that he's a new guy, and his behaviors at home and everywhere else (his Outpatient Therapist can see it, and his Psychiatrist can see it) show that he's a new guy, but he wasn't seeing it himself so much  

Anyhow, in the car on the way home from his session on Saturday he told me that he's realizing now that the NFT is making his brain work "better." That he's "thinking clearer" and "understanding things better" and he's not "reacting emotionally so much anymore, but taking the time to check" his "feelings to see if they are correct in a situation or not." He's realizing that "just because something seems like it's the end of the world right at the time" he's realizing that if he gives it "more time, eventually it turns out OK, and there's no reason to get angry or upset or pissy... . "  Yes, yes, yes, yes! THAT'S what we are all seeing, and what is making living with him in our house so much better!  Smiling (click to insert in post)  And, hopefully, with continued T, he will be happier, less inclined to self-medicate again, and able to get a job and live a full and happy life... .  

Do I expect that to happen? Not exactly, but at least I can hope for it now. I go to every NFT session with him, and give feedback to the T so she not only hears what my son tells her, but knows what I know, too. She's intuitive, sensitive, passionate and dedicated to what she does, and to my son in particular. They have similar, artistic, personalities, and she understands him and his problems. And she so much wants him to "get better" because she knows he wants to, and because she knows our little family is willing to go the distance with this. We're all serious about this, which is why his NFT is so intensive and serious. It's the difference between life and death to him, and we are all honoring that  

Me, my dd is diagnosed as PTSD, due I think to her claim of a lifetime of abuse by me, according to her T. So, of course while she is in treatment, it is not optimal... .

thanks,

Vivek

And this breaks my heart  :'(  I don't for one minute believe that her claims are true, but I guess they are "true for her" for whatever reason    I read your posts about that, and it just makes me so sad for you, and please know that my wish is that somehow she sees the light and things get better  
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2013, 09:24:36 PM »

Rapt Reader,

What a hopeful and encouraging post! Thank you so much for the shout-out on Neuro-feedback therapy. I have been looking into that alot lately but have found very little evidence that supports significant changes for those suffering with BPD. Your story adds a sliver of hope for those on this board. (You know how we'll try almost anything) Smiling (click to insert in post)

Congratulations to you and your family for seeing a breakthrough!

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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2013, 09:43:18 PM »

Thanks, Juliecelle   Smiling (click to insert in post)  I appreciate your kind words   

I actually talked to the NF T about that on Saturday... . I'd given her the link to this website so she could learn about BPD, since my son is her first patient diagnosed with that. She really loves this site  Smiling (click to insert in post)  She's worked with people with ADHD, Autism, Depression, Anxiety, Substance Abuse & Suicidal Ideation, and all sorts of physical disabilities, but never BPD. She did her own research as to the best way to proceed, and she said that she is working on "symptoms and behaviors instead of diagnoses." And, true to form, my son's symptoms and behaviors are being addressed specifically by the T and one by one we are all seeing changes.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

And, the reason for the intensity of the sessions (4-5 days/week, sometimes more than one session per day) is because of his past addiction problems, and his past suicidal ideations. She is specifically working on these tirelessly and predominately, while also working on everything else. First and foremost, he needs to not go back to self-medicating, and not want to give up on life. And I have to tell you, it really seems to be working  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2013, 11:59:51 PM »

So good to hear from you again   - so happy your ds can see and feel the improvement   I hope this continues to build on the work already done, compounds the effort and so on... .  

Now, to take you on another tack, I just finished reading Buddha and the Borderline, see:

Buddha and the Borderline

It is the story of the recovery of an young woman from BPD, a memoir and a great read. She didn't do neurofeedback, but her life was a story of treatments and no permanent relief from her BPD until she found Buddhism. Now it's not that she became religious or anything, it was just that what she did was not enough of itself, she needed that extra impetus to find a way to connect with the universe and practice mindfulness.

So, I am thinking that the neurofeedback, working so wonderfully, your ds may benefit from a complementary psychotherapy. Perhaps you could speak with the neurologist about it? Now, to help you and the neurologist understand the different psychotherapies, you might want to have a look at this link on National Clinical Guidelines for the Management of BPD (Aust) published just last month. It compares the therapies and their success rate based on the latest research (you will see neurofeedback doesn't rate a mention because there is limited research on its use with BPD). The book can be downloaded free, see page 55:

National Clinical Guidelines for the Management of BPD (Aust)

I don't want you to go into a flat panic now   and get all unnecessarily worried  . It's just a thought. And since your ds is working so well with neurofeedback, it may be appropriate for her to consider this with him - at some stage.

Cheers,

Viv   
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 08:39:07 AM »

Raptreader,

Wow!  Your post is so encouraging!  I haven't read your intro, yet.  I will go back and read that.  I am going to check out if they have any neruofeedback around here.  My, soon to be 29, has diagnosed ADD; and/or borderline.  I highly suspect BPD, and a former T of mine, saw here once, and confirmed those were her feelings, too.  My dd has been struggling with addiction.  She was on methadone, then detoxed in jail, and decided not to return to clinic once she was released.  I was so proud of her for getting off of it.  Methadone has quite a long half life which makes withdrawal all the longer.  She had extreme fatigue and started taking opiates here and there for energy.  I warned her that full blown addiction was around the corner.  I feel that she may have some underlying medical problem that causes extreme fatigue.  I have an auto-immune illness, so I know what extreme fatigue is. She did test positive on one test, but primary dr. said that her titers were low enough that she was not concerned.  I said that is how mine started out.  It was a very slow progressing disease.  However, pcp said that she would refer her to rheumatologist, but my dd did not want to get into it any further.  She just chose to self medicate.  Anyways, she is back at the methadone clinic. 

We have a university hospital that probably does neurofeedback.  It is a 90 minute drive, but if it is not everyday, then that would be very doable for us. 

I really appreciated your post.  It is easy at times to forget about the validating.  But, we can always go back and get a do over.  I have done that numerous times when I realized that I was invalidating.  She appreciates the apology and recognition of her feelings. 

peaceplease
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 06:09:20 PM »

Thanks for the links, Vivek     I read the reviews for the "Buddha and the Borderline" book and it looks like it would not only be helpful for my son to read, but myself also... . I ordered Rachel Reiland's "Get me Out of Here" and he read it in one night (!) and LOVED it! Turns out, his last girlfriend (they broke up more than a year ago) "could have written that book herself" according to my son, and it helped him understand the r/s they had (he, a LF BPD and she, a possible HF BPD/NPD as far as he is now concerned). He read Rachel's book to learn more about himself, and he did... . but he felt that it was most beneficial for him to put his old GF and that r/s into proper context.

I'm hoping that NOW he will finally be able to get over her... . Who knew? A LF BPD has the same r/s issues as a Non would have with a HF BPD, and the same agonies and difficulties extricating himself from the r/s, even more than a year later! The heartache he has been suffering over their break-up (and even the stress he was under DURING that r/s) actually has been one of the stressors that was making his SA and SI recoveries so hard for him in the past... .  

At my son's NFT appointment tomorrow (Wednesday) I'll see if I can talk to his T about the other therapies you are mentioning... . I'll get that paper you linked to. Thanks! He's going to Outpatient T for his SA issues, a Psych for his ADD/Depression/SI/Anxiety issues, and is on some meds for all of that. He also has been reading a virtual library of books that were recommended to him by the Dual Diagnosis Center, including DBT and Mindfulness (both therapies practiced and taught to him at the Center), Meditation, etc. He is actually a very spiritual guy, so I think the Buddha book will appeal to him.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Hi, peaceplease   (I love your name!). My son's NF T says that her practice has had great success with addicts; there are different points in the brain for specific addictions, and they can be targeted with precision and they are finding that years later the addicts are still clean and sober. If they are serious about the treatment, of course. I only know in my son's case that the variable in this--his 3rd try at recovery after rehab--that is new is the NFT. Yes, it's only been about 7 weeks of NFT for him, but he's different now and it just seems that he is more positive than ever before. He's been clean and sober for more than 3 months now; not very long, but good for him  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I am so sorry that you are going through this with your daughter; it sucks and takes so much energy to deal with watching your own sweet child (in our minds at least!) self-destruct. My son also had a problem with opiates (he said it made him feel "normal", and he ALSO suffered from fatigue ALL the time. I swear, when he was not self-medicating, he could sleep 24/7 and then sleep some more! One of the meds he is on (prescribed prior to his Dual Diagnosis program, and still on it) is Provigil (generic: modafinil, the brand he takes is Modalert), prescribed by his Psych. I have to say, it has REALLY helped him with the fatigue and lethargy; he is much more wide-awake and cognizant while taking it. It is not habit-forming either; if he forgets a dose or two (or more) there are no side effects or withdrawals.

Does your daughter want help? A Dual Diagnosis program, if you have a good one available, was my son's salvation... . He will tell you that, and he'd wished at the end of his 21 days that he could've stayed 6 months! He learned so much about himself and his mental health and substance abuse issues that it was a real turning point for him. I am emotional about it when I think of that program and the wonderful professionals who helped him there.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

About the validating... . We were talking about it yesterday, and he said he saw me using the techniques with my Husband (his Dad) and my other son and his wife, and thought it was cool... . I looked at him with a grin, and he said: "What? You don't use those techniques on ME, do you?" Hahahahaha! Only EVERY day, kiddo! He said he really never realized it  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 05:38:04 PM »

I had a bit of a revelation today at my son's NFT session, while hearing him chat with his NF T prior to the start of his treatment (he begins each session by telling her what is going on with himself since his last session, and if he is seeing any improvements/changes, etc. regarding his symptoms). Anyway, I believe that this therapy is good for him because he has had to rate a long list of symptoms and behaviors that he has that complicate his life, and it was done in a nonjudgmental way--rating on a 1 to 10 scale. He did this before his first session, and then every 7 sessions he does it again, making note of any progress or any unmet expectations. He completes this "survey" online, privately, and the results are sent to his NFT Therapist for a record of his progress.

This, along with his very matter-of-fact discussions every session with the T, has taken away the judgmental nature of his thinking about his troubles; the "character flaw" issue is now gone for him, and he sees these problems as linked to his diagnoses, not to his value as a human being. And, he himself is seeing progress which reinforces the clinical (not personal) nature of his problems.

Listening to his good-natured chatting about his issues/problems/symptoms, and what is getting better and what needs working on, with the T today, I realized all of this... . And realized that it is good for him Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2013, 06:04:15 PM »

It just keeps on getting better. Do you pinch yourself and wonder what happened to the two steps forward one step back?

How do you think NFT would do for someone who was not so 'switched on' as your ds is? For someone who isn't sop IT literate, or who has learning difficulties. It seems to me your son is more outgoing than not, do you think that makes a difference?

cheers,

Vivek  
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 06:40:26 PM »

Hi, Vivek ... . My son is "switched on" at this point, and that switch was flipped during his Dual Diagnosis Program stay in March/April of this year. Prior to that program, he was despondent, suicidal, always thinking that the solution to his problems were the opiates that made his brain work better (according to him). He, in the past, went to various conventional therapies for the ADD/Depression/SI & SA issues and Anxiety, but the intensive mental health evaluations and new BPD diagnosis and DBT sessions at the DD Program somehow made it all "click" for him.

I think that his progress is happening so fast because he is really a smart guy (ADD and all!), and the NF T is doing a VERY intensive program. But, someone else, I think would do well, also. You don't need to go online to rate your progress (in the beginning he was "afraid" of using the computer, and would do it verbally with the T), and everything can be done with the T. Doing it online saves time, though, and frees up his sessions for actual T. Someone with LDs, I think, would love this T... . it helps the brain in easy ways; there's nothing that even resembles "work" in his sessions. His NF T makes sure that the last part of each session leaves him calmer, stress-free and happy.

I would say that everything depends on the expertise of the Neurofeedback Therapist, and the attitude of the patient... . If you do NOT want to be there, then it would probably take longer to see results. I only know this Therapist, but my son loves her and she loves her work, and takes lots of care with him. He, actually, is not really that outgoing of a guy; he just feels so comfortable with her--from the beginning--that he's never had trouble talking to her. I will say, though, that in the 7 weeks that he's been doing this, he has become more and more talkative and friendly and outgoing with everyone he meets... . More like he was before becoming troubled in his teens.

And, yes... . I do pinch myself and wonder, and wait to see if/when we take one step back... . I'll keep everyone posted  
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 10:55:05 PM »

ta xx

All this is soo interesting. I am hanging on every word.

Viv 
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2013, 01:12:32 PM »

Wow, I love this thread. I so relate to "that face" they get when they feel invalidated. And I can so relate with seeing links between experiences (like therapy) and improvement in behavior that seem soo obvious to me but are not obvious to UD18.

I want to second Vivek 's thumbs-up on Buddha and the Borderline (thanks, Vivek !). I'm almost done with it, and it's really been helpful. Part of me wishes I'd read it six months ago, and part of me thinks I wouldn't have been ready for it. The reeeeally weird thing is that I can personally relate to much of what the writer describes; I think I could very easily have tipped into BPD if I (like DD) had had childhood trauma. I'm working on healthier coping skills anyway, in the parenting role, so dealing with my emotions has been quite a bit easier of late.

Thanks so much for your posts!
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2013, 02:01:20 PM »

Hi, sunshineplease 

I'm so happy you can relate to this post; I am so pleased with my son's progress with his T that I want to just put it out there for anyone else who might just benefit... . I do know that the stars would need to be aligned in the perfect sort of universe for it to work (willingness to get help, time to do it, and the funds to make it happen), but we are still seeing progress  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Today he had another NFT appointment (had a "deep state" session for an hour, an hour off, and a "wake state" session after that) and he's just so cognizant and amiable and "normal" (for lack of a better word!) most of the time. She's gearing his sessions to his specific symptoms and behaviors, and today she said that after finding out from him how things have been feeling for him since his last session on Wednesday, that she was concentrating on his "social adaptation and cognition skills" along with the other usual issues related to his many diagnoses. I truly am impressed with her knowledge and compassion  Smiling (click to insert in post)

And, it really helps a lot for her to have my input at every session... . He truly is not seeing his progress as being as amazing as his Dad and I do. Which, I believe, is a good thing... . He's not jonesing to stop T because he's "all better now." He's still careful enough in his optimism for his good mental health that he's willing to keep going... . I'm truly thankful for that 
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2013, 10:03:33 PM »

Rapt Reader -

Just want to say a big thank you for sharing this wonderful progress with your ds. Gives all of us with adult kids more hope.

qcr
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2013, 11:56:54 PM »

Questions:

Does neurofeedback work best when part of a team approach - ie. pdoc, T plus feedback T?

What resources best describe methods - are there different systems for this training?

Has anyone tried home-based training? I found this at Zengar.com for $5500.00

There are a couple feedback centers close to where i live that seem to have different programs. This would seem to be an option for gd7 as I am avoiding meds for her attentional issues with ADHD dx. It might help with my bipolar II and PTSD. It definitely could help Dd27, if she could be convinced to try it. So maybe if a home-based system could work, it would be worth the investment of $5500.00? Guess it would depend on how many treatments at $100 avg price per session would be needed.


Such a hopeful option. Puzzled why I have avoided checking out before - maybe my struggle with money.

qcr
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2013, 04:43:25 PM »

Hi, qcarolr 

Though my son's NF T has introduced herself and her credentials and program to his Outpatient T and his Psychiatrist, I'm not sure if they've had any coordination; my hunch is no. I think she (the NF T) wanted to make sure they were all in the loop, and that if necessary they could work together. The OP T and Psych are supportive of his NF T sessions, though, and he talks to them about it extensively during his appointments with them. I'm not much help here, am I? 

In talking to his NF T, I know there are at least 2 different NFT systems, but I can't remember the one she uses; she told me the information when I didn't have a pen and paper available, and I'd thought I'd remember, but I don't... . She did tell me about a home-based training program, and has suggested we look into it when he is finished with his sessions with her, so that he can help himself when he needs it; she was very positive about it and offered to tell us more about it when we were ready. It did sound expensive, though doable... .

My son's ADD, Depression, Social Anxiety, Impulsivity and poor decision-making (as well as Substance Abuse and Suicidal Ideation) issues ARE being addressed and alleviated. Honest Smiling (click to insert in post) She takes his symptoms and behaviors--the ones he, himself has told her that he needs "fixed" and targets them for him. She explains all of this and how and why she is doing what she is doing, but I am not in the medical field and can just absorb so much of it. I just know that he is getting relief and seeing progress... . Smiling (click to insert in post)

The home-based training you mention could be really cost-effective for you if you, your D and also your GD were to benefit from it... . I'll take down the info you posted and see if my son's NF T has heard of it or can check it out for me. His next NFT appointment is on Tuesday, 6/11th; I'll see if I can find out anything for you  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2013, 05:22:13 PM »

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I'll take down the info you posted and see if my son's NF T has heard of it or can check it out for me. His next NFT appointment is on Tuesday, 6/11th; I'll see if I can find out anything for you

I'd appreciate that, too, RaptR. I don't suppose you're in the NYC area, are you? :-)

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« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2013, 05:39:29 PM »

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I'll take down the info you posted and see if my son's NF T has heard of it or can check it out for me. His next NFT appointment is on Tuesday, 6/11th; I'll see if I can find out anything for you

I'd appreciate that, too, RaptR. I don't suppose you're in the NYC area, are you? :-)

I do plan on asking her if she knows about the program that qcarolr mentioned, or if the one she's been telling me about is something different. If it is something different, maybe she can point me in that direction and I can report back, here  Smiling (click to insert in post)


And unfortunately, I am not in the New York City area... . Have you found any Neurofeedback Therapists that appeal to you in NYC? I believe when I was running my search to find my son's T, I saw that there were quite a few there... . I believe you can search a website called eeginfo.com and it will let you search for a T and there is info on how it works, etc. Good luck! 
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2013, 06:13:35 PM »

At my son's appointment today I was able to talk to his NF T about Home-Based Neurofeedback Therapy. Turns out, she knew about the Zengar.com system, but that is not the program that she is using. The system she uses is Cignet, an "Infra Low Frequencies/Resting State Network" of the brain system, which she says is very different from Zengar. The information regarding the program my son is on can be found at www.eeginfo.com, and the Cignet System information can be accessed from there. She said that a Home-Based program using Cignet would be comparable in price to the Zengar system.

Cignet is the software (Beemedic is the company that sells the equipment). This July, there will be new upgrades made to the equipment (and possibly the software? I didn't think to ask this), and she said that people will be able to buy the system being used now, used, and the prices will be lowered and it should be a good deal. My son is very fascinated by his NFT, and is interested in maybe checking this out for when he's completed his sessions with his T. We'll see... .  

His session went well today, and she told us that she started working on Initiative and Motivation sites today... . that, up to now she's been focusing on Cognitive, Impulsivity, Emotion Control, Addiction, etc. sites (everything I've mentioned in prior posts). That, before you can "put the car in Drive, you have to turn the motor on," and now he's ready for her to add Initiative and Motivation. Good news for me as a parent; I can't wait till he's able to get a job and support himself    But, seriously, I know we are in it for the long haul, and it'll be awhile... .   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2013, 07:22:04 PM »

Rapt Reader,

Thanks so much for asking these questions for us all. I hesitate to start out with a home program. The deeper issues that need to be treated, the more possible 'side effects' risk I would think. By side effects I mean an increase in negative feelings/thoughts/actions. I so agree with the metaphor of filling the car with gas before putting it in drive.

When I spoke to the T using the Zengar system, he had zero interest in working with someone as complex as my DD27. And perhaps even with my gd7 unless our home situation became more tranquil. He sounds like his focus is more on people wanting to peek their performance than deal with mental illness issues at this point in his life. He mentioned his age (61) and looking forward to retirement after practicing for 30 years.

I will check out the website you listed. Seems I saw this referred to on another thread today.

I really want to find some help for my gd7 with her ADHD, anxiety etc. NOW that is not so medication focused. I will continue to look at how to add NF to her community of support. I have nightmares about her following in her parents footsteps --   

qcr
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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2013, 07:39:16 PM »

This site has such an awesome summary of neurofeedback. And presents it is a very realistic manner. I really appreciate that they offer a suprevised home system after an initial 20 sessions are completed for issues that may be ongoing (ie. some organic brain conditions like autism, siezure disorders --- where will BPD fit into this analysis as it is not mentioned.)

They also talk about insurance, that codes to exist for covering this under biofeedback with or without therapist. Why do I go on and on. We can each read it for ourselves.

Seems a more sound approach than what I found at Zenger. IMHO

qcr
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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2013, 07:43:04 PM »

Hi, qcarolr    I totally agree with you about starting out with a home-based NFT program; I wouldn't even touch it without prior completion of enough sessions with a T, and then guidance from her for home use. We've already broached this subject with her, and if we DO purchase a used Cignet System, she will facilitate the sale and show us exactly how to use it, and explain whatever it is we need to know... . We would only use it as a "refresher" after my son's recovery from his symptoms. I hope I am not being delusional here, but it does seem possible at this time... . We'll see  Smiling (click to insert in post)

At the www.eeginfo.com website you can run a search for a Therapist in your area; I hope you are able to find one. She's seen great progress with ADHD patients, among others. I can say that so far my son's many diagnoses/behaviors/symptoms are being addressed and being alleviated. And I know about the nightmares... . I feel like we are just waking up from ours, these days... . Good luck to you!     (I'm glad you like the website; I find it very informational!)
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2013, 12:08:05 PM »

Thank you, RaptR! There's even a practitioner in my town! Holy cow!

I hope my daughter will be interested. Helps migraines, too. :-)

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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2013, 03:43:11 PM »

Thank you, RaptR! There's even a practitioner in my town! Holy cow!

I hope my daughter will be interested. Helps migraines, too. :-)

I'm so glad you found someone nearby to you, sunshineplease  Smiling (click to insert in post) It would be great if it works out for you and your daughter... . Yes, it is supposed to help migraines, too  Smiling (click to insert in post)  In fact, I haven't said anything about this before (because I've only been writing in regards to my son's BPD symptoms and treatments and recovery process), but for the last month or so I've had some NFT sessions of my own with my son's NF T; maybe 5 or 6 of them. The reason I agreed to do them (after all, I'M not the patient, and I really want the bulk of the $$ we are paying for these sessions to go for my son) is because the stress I've been dealing with over the last 3.5 years (when my son's troubles became pretty dramatic and traumatic, not only for him, but for our whole family) was manifesting itself in my grinding my teeth in my sleep, and clenching my jaw subconsciously during my wake time. The TMJ had become really painful and intrusive to my well-being (as well as the stress!). I've been grinding my teeth (the dentist said it was stress-related) for many years, though... . It just got WAY worse in the last 3.5 years... .

Anyhow, after these sessions, I can say that my husband told me this morning that since I've started NFT he hasn't heard me grinding my teeth at night; that it used to wake him up! He doesn't sleep through the night ever, and he used to hear me grinding my teeth regularly, and now he's realizing that he doesn't anymore. I do know that during my wake time, I don't notice myself clenching my jaw very much, and when I do, I am cognizant of it and stop it immediately (I never realized I was doing it before; other people would point it out to me!). Some mornings I wake up with no pain in my jaw at all, some days I don't notice the pain, or I have very little. I won't say the pain is totally gone; it's not at the scale that it was before NFT (I'd gotten a nightguard several years ago and hated it; it was made by my dentist, but I could never sleep with it... . I kept chomping on it--even unconsciously!). I'm not "better" just yet (I still feel my jaw aching--less painfully though--from time to time), and I'm not sure how many more sessions I'll need, but I'm hoping it won't be too many more. I truly want the $$ to go to my son's recovery and chance at happiness in the future  Smiling (click to insert in post)


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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2013, 10:22:00 AM »

Wow, RaptR. That's amazing. I'm a night-grinder, too, so I read this with special interest! Thanks for putting it out there. NFT for all!

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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2013, 06:25:56 PM »

Wow, RaptR. That's amazing. I'm a night-grinder, too, so I read this with special interest! Thanks for putting it out there. NFT for all!

Smiling (click to insert in post) I got a kick out of that    One thing to remember if you search for a NF T on that www.eeginfo.com website, make sure that the one you find is using Cignet (if you are interested in the same program that my son's T is using). She, obviously, recommends that over the Zengar program.

Also, at my son's session today I asked her about something that I've seen posters chatting about: whether Neurofeedback Therapy can address "empathy." My own opinion, when thinking about that, was Yes; I can see it in my own son's recovery process. He is much more regulated in his emotions, and therefore "comes out of himself" most of the time now, which seems to make him more aware of other people's situations, opinions, feelings, etc. When I asked my son what he thought about that subject (without personalizing it to himself; I didn't want him to feel like a guinea pig!  Smiling (click to insert in post) ) he said that he thought that NFT makes his brain work in such a way that he is more aware of other people's facial expressions and that he is more cognizant now of "social cues" than he was before. He said he figured that this would cause someone to be more empathetic in the long run... .

So, when I asked the Therapist whether empathy could be addressed with NFT, she said Yes. Now, she showed me all the spots on the head related to the right side, left side, frontal lobe, behind the head, etc. for all the different locations to target for social anxiety, stress, cognitive skills, emotional regulation, etc. I'm pretty terrible at remembering all the technical brain terms (sorry! My son is way better at this than I am at this point!), but she said that if someone's brain is able to stop just seeing the world in "their own little space" then empathy can occur. She says that she works on making it possible for someone's stress to be "put into a little pocket in the bottom right side of the brain" to free up their cognition skills which can also enable empathy to be felt. She's doing this for me so that my stress doesn't affect my body so much, resulting in the clenching and grinding of my teeth. I hope some of this makes sense... .
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« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2013, 09:40:04 AM »

In keeping with the original intent and subject of this post, something I never expected (but should have!) happened this week with my dBPDs36... . Before yesterday (Wednesday) his last NFT session was on Saturday. On Monday he had an appointment with his Outpatient Therapist, which went really well... . He willingly went to the appt. after having a decent weekend being with my H and me, helping his Dad in the yard with the multitude of landscaping projects they are working on. After the appt. he came back with a grin, saying that his OP T was very "proud" of his progress. All good Smiling (click to insert in post)  So, what happened on Tuesday really surprised me, and knocked me out of my delusion that he is "all better" and that I can just go on with my life as if progress was going to happen unencumbered by his BPD... .

This is really not a terrible setback or anything, but really was a reality check... . Tuesday morning he had his monthly appt. with his Psychiatrist. He went willingly but unenthusiastically (he likes the guy, but doesn't think he's helping him much--an opinion I don't happen to share). He did, however, get into the spirit of the session once inside, and in the waiting room I heard a lively, friendly, engaged hour-long conversation between the 2 of them. The Psych really is interested in my son's NFT, and loves to talk to him about it. When the session ended, my son came out amiably but happy to be finished, and the Psych was absolutely glowing... .

Now, this Psych has been seeing my son for almost a year--has seen him at his worst: addicted to opiates, depressed beyond all belief, wanting to self-harm, unmotivated to do anything but sleep in the fetal position 24/7, angry, obstinate, etc. (The normal for dBPDs36 for the last many, many years). On Tuesday (and a month ago, after his last Psych appt.), the Dr. couldn't contain his happiness and excitement that my son was doing as well as he was  Smiling (click to insert in post) The Dr. said to me this time: "He's doing so well! He's so much more 'in the moment' and is learning so much about his brain! He really is interested in that, and it's really helping him!" Smiling so much, I couldn't help smiling back and agreeing with him that this was true, and was, indeed, "a good thing... . "  Smiling (click to insert in post)

When I looked at my son, thinking he'd be pretty darn proud of himself, I saw the fear in his eyes. And it turned so quickly into depression that he was hanging his head and uncommunicative before we even got into the car in the parking lot! We had to do some errands after this appt., and during the ride he was pretty quiet and depressed. I just didn't know what to say or do, or if I should say or do anything    I know how to validate, but since he wasn't raging at me (his raging is always directed inward, though he was just depressed that day, and not raging), or even saying anything at all, I tried to just not get sucked into his depression. I didn't question him or try to pry anything out of him, but talked conversationally about what we had to do that day. He responded quietly and with resignation, no aggression.

I knew he had an appointment with his NF T the next day (Wednesday, yesterday), and decided to let her deal with whatever it was that was causing his depression at that session. I have read the Family Guidelines and had the feeling that he froze when the Dr. heaped on the praise--petrified that now that he was getting "better" everyone would expect him to just go out and live the life that we all want for him: getting a decent job, supporting himself, moving out eventually and living on his own. Now, my H and I know that it will take more time for these things to happen, maybe even a long time for these things to happen! Part of the reason he is doing better is because of his ongoing therapies and the soft landing place available for him at this time with us at home. We know that, but I wasn't sure how to let him know that without making him more depressed... .

Luckily, my son has given his permission to me to be able to communicate with every one of his Therapists/Dr.s, so I emailed his NF T that night--the night before his upcoming session--and let her know what was going on with him since seeing the Psych so she had time to decide how to help him if she could. Yesterday morning he was still depressed--for the first time since going to NFT he was late getting ready to go, agitated in the car, not looking forward to the session. Well, I'm not sure what she did (I only know that it involved the left side of the brain!), but his double-session went really well... . She chatted with him about how he'd been doing since Saturday, he was animated and honest with her, and she discussed with him how they should progress for that session. They discussed having him not go for such a long stretch of time between sessions in the near future, and we all agreed that we could do that.

We left the appt. with him in a much happier mood, and the rest of the day (and today) have been back to his new "normal" and things are good... . And, now I have to continue to remember to be constantly validating; he is still BPD and still needs time to deal with his life and himself, and I can't take his recovery for granted 


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