How do you learn NOT to defend yourself?

[ApChagi1]

I really really struggle with this and I was wondering what tips and techniques others use when their BPD SO start attacking with lies and distortions?  My dBPDw does it all the time and I have not yet found a way to not interrupt.  I know the principles of JADE, but she seems to be able to attack until she hits a vital point and I can't hold my tongue any longer.

Help!

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[briefcase]

You defend yourself, but in a different way.  Arguing and being defensive in your communication doesn't work, right?  So, you work on becoming less enmeshed (allowing her to have her own thoughts, opinions, and feelings, and not taking her "stuff" so personally), and using boundaries if things start to get abusive in any way. 

We don't "just take it."  You can, and should, take a time out when you feel yourself getting to the point where you can't hold your tongue. 

If there are hot button issues that you know get under your skin, think about how you will react beforehand, so that the next time she pushes one of these buttons you have a plan. 

[ApChagi1]

I have tried the Time Out method, but that just seems to add fuel to the fire and make her more and more upset when we try to resume talking.

[Chosen]

I learnt it the hard way.  I spent years JADEing, and it hadn't done me any good.

To be honest, if JADEing doesn't make a positive difference, I'd rather not spend my energy doing that.  Being with a pwBPD is tiring as it is.

Also, I now try to tell myself in each episode, I've been doing well, if I start arguing now, I am throwing away all of my hard work, and he will only remember me being argumentative.

Of course, they will try to push our buttons.  They will try one after another.  And now, after all this time (only a few years actually), I don't really have buttons anymore, so it's easier to let things go.  And like briefcase, I have learnt that it's ok to disagree.  In fact, I sometimes tell my pwBPD that "I have no intention of changing your opinion about hit". 

[Angelnme]

Excellent question. I've only recently (3 weeks) become aware that my bf of 9 years is uBPD. So I'm new to all the techniques I will have to learn. I agree, it's very difficult when you're being accused of something you didn't do, blamed for some created nonexistent story, etc. Timeouts don't work for me because he is too controlling and either violates my space (if I leave the room) or threatens some kind of punishment like taking my belongings if I leave the house. As my resentment builds I find it very hard (and unfair, quite frankly) to always have to be the one to maintain control and not take it personally. Especially when he attacks me personally... . using personal info against me. I can't lie it HURTS.

[Rockylove]

I does hurt, Angelnme!  That's why they do it~~misery loves company and if they hurt we will hurt... . if we allow it.  I'm working on not allowing my fiance to hurt me.  He's had a good stretch of clarity and we've talked.  He's understanding that he is responsible for his anger.  He owns it and if he wants to be angry, he can do it without me.  I promised not to run away, but take the time out so I don't engage.  I'm not sure how this will play out when it comes up again, but I've been able to soften the blows a couple of times just reminding him that we are in this together~~I'm not the enemy.

[allibaba]

I really really struggle with this and I was wondering what tips and techniques others use when their BPD SO start attacking with lies and distortions?  My dBPDw does it all the time and I have not yet found a way to not interrupt.  I know the principles of JADE, but she seems to be able to attack until she hits a vital point and I can't hold my tongue any longer.

I was exactly in this spot a month ago.  And for two years I had been trying to figure out how to make it stop.  I had gotten being QUIET down to a science (sitting there like a quiet little mouse).  And then when I couldn't take it I would lash out.  Generally I knew not to JADE... . but my general silence actually told him that I was ok with what was being said about me. 

Like briefcase said... . you have to defend yourself - you just do it differently.  I was trying to overtly put down boundaries (by saying "husband you cannot threaten me" or if he said some lie "that's not true".  Well he just used it as an invitation to break the rules or tell more lies.  Instead, now when things get nasty I say "husband you said X and now I am done and walk away."

For me just starting to implement the boundaries has made the accusations and lies stop (or at least go down to a dull roar ).

On my post, Grey Kitty asked me to actually write out a typical conversation that I needed help with.  I did and got great suggestions from board members on how to handle it.  The next morning I did it and I was on my way.  Maybe try to give an example of a typical conversation between you and your wife - maybe we can help give specifics.  Getting specific help on my situation immediately changed my family dynamic in a positive way. 

I promised not to run away, but take the time out so I don't engage.  I'm not sure how this will play out when it comes up again, but I've been able to soften the blows a couple of times just reminding him that we are in this together~~I'm not the enemy.

Rockylove makes a good point that to be effective, its important that you put down the boundaries with love. 

Good luck!

[toomanyeggshells]

In fact, I sometimes tell my pwBPD that "I have no intention of changing your opinion about hit". 

I love that sentence, Chosen, and I'm definitely going to steal it 

[Mcgddss]

I learnt it the hard way.  I spent years JADEing, and it hadn't done me any good.

To be honest, if JADEing doesn't make a positive difference, I'd rather not spend my energy doing that.  Being with a pwBPD is tiring as it is.

Also, I now try to tell myself in each episode, I've been doing well, if I start arguing now, I am throwing away all of my hard work, and he will only remember me being argumentative.

Of course, they will try to push our buttons.  They will try one after another.  And now, after all this time (only a few years actually), I don't really have buttons anymore, so it's easier to let things go.  And like briefcase, I have learnt that it's ok to disagree.  In fact, I sometimes tell my pwBPD that "I have no intention of changing your opinion about hit". 

I thank my annoying little brother for getting rid of all my buttons before I met my uBPDh.

I really like your line about not changing his opinion and will be using during the next rage.

[Chosen]

It's not a magic button, saying we don't want to change their opinions, but I believe this is what they need to hear, and also something they cannot argue with you about.  But of course, you have to really NOT want to change his opinion... . otherwise you will sound hypocritical.

I think it's a milder way of saying "we can agree to disagree".  Even though our pwBPDs usually want us to accep their opinion as our own!

[lizzie458]

One note about telling them you have no intention of changing their opinion - pwBPD can argue with that, because they think they know exactly what you're "up to" and you lying to them is a definite possibility in their minds.  In the past I've tried to reason with my high functioning dBPDh that I know he feels like I'm trying to control him, but there's no way for him to know my feelings/thoughts/motives better than me.  That has never worked - he absolutely believes that he knows these things better than me, and many times believes that I am lying to him for various reasons. 

"I have no intention of changing your opinion" is incredibly invalidating to my dBPDh sometimes, but not always.  If he's in a clear mood and just mildly irritated, then a sentence like often helps; but if he's worked up at all - he tends to rail even harder.  I'm not saying don't use the statement, just be sure to use your best judgment with it, and above all don't get sucked back into JADE.

[briefcase]

I have tried the Time Out method, but that just seems to add fuel to the fire and make her more and more upset when we try to resume talking.

They don't like or respect boundaries.  Be consistent and be patient.   

[Cloudy Days]

Timeouts don't work for me because he is too controlling and either violates my space (if I leave the room) or threatens some kind of punishment like taking my belongings if I leave the house. As my resentment builds I find it very hard (and unfair, quite frankly) to always have to be the one to maintain control and not take it personally. Especially when he attacks me personally... . using personal info against me. I can't lie it HURTS.

I too also struggle with the Accusations and what to say to them. My H always assumes that since I did one thing it means that I am cheating on him too. So no matter what it is, his perceived wrong doing that I did to him, I Validate the truth of the statements he's making, but I don't own up to the cheating. So something like I can understand why you are upset with me, I did this and you feel hurt by it, that's understandable. However I cannot stand here while you accuse me of something I did not do so I'm going to the other room. Personally, I have had talks with my husband while he was open to discussion about our problems, that I need to be able to take a break from him if it becomes too much. It's something that I need in order to love him the best that I can. He wants me to love him so this worked for me. I often use the back yard as my get away, he can come outside and talk quietly because we have neighbors, before this I would just sit and listen to his crap. It didn't work the first few times, he actually locked me out the first time, I didn't even try to get back in, he eventually unlocked it and I enjoyed the nature of our backyard until then. It was better than being cussed at.

Angelnme I just wanted to say that I thought my husband was too controlling too at first. But it's something that you have to do. Trust me I have some horror stories of the things my husband has done to my belongings. That was a long time ago and that behavior has stopped.

[allibaba]

Timeouts don't work for me because he is too controlling and either violates my space (if I leave the room) or threatens some kind of punishment like taking my belongings if I leave the house. As my resentment builds I find it very hard (and unfair, quite frankly) to always have to be the one to maintain control and not take it personally. Especially when he attacks me personally... . using personal info against me. I can't lie it HURTS.

Angelnme I just wanted to say that I thought my husband was too controlling too at first. But it's something that you have to do. Trust me I have some horror stories of the things my husband has done to my belongings. That was a long time ago and that behavior has stopped.

Just wanted to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Cloudy Days.  I thought that my husband wouldn't ever respect my boundaries because he would just follow me or threaten punishment.  Well once I delivered the boundary with consistency and actually let him know what I was doing instead of just ignoring him... . the behavior stopped (you could have blown me over with a feather).  I try to think about it as follows:

If my son (just over a year) throws a temper tantrum because I took away his toy - I have 2 choices

1.  give the toy back - basically telling him that its ok to throw tantrums and if he does then he'll get what he wants.

2.  explain to him that 'we don't act like that' and only give him the toy back when he calms down and asks for it nicely.

I may have to endure the tantrum a few times, but eventually he'll learn that acting like that won't get him what he wants.

Husband is the same way.  If he gets angry and I give him what he wants then I'm telling him that treating me badly and getting angry is the best way to operate.  I am basically training my husband to be nasty to me.  Once I decided that I didn't want to do that anymore and properly implemented boundaries, the behavior amazingly stopped.

I had to tell myself that what I was doing (arguing or being silent depending on the situation) obviously wasn't working.  I was being punished anyway... .   what did I really have to lose.  Believe me... . its not as though my husband isn't scary when he's angry.  He's a BIG STRONG man... . and I have felt physically threatened by him before.  Once I told him NO (by not accepting the way he was treating me) once or twice, he quickly fell into line.

[Angelnme]

Here's my scenario:

Bf is triggered, begins verbal abuse.

Me:  I need a time-out. (granted this was before I discovered he was uBPD so I didn't communicate that in the calmest manner.) I go to the bedroom and close the door.

Him: opens door, continues rage, slams door.  This repeats 2-3 times. Rage is getting worse. I remain silent.

Me: I said I need a time-out. (leave the house for a short time, going no where.)

Him: spits in my face and accuses me of being in a bar. Doesn't speak to me for 2 days and is predictably nasty. Then just wants to sweep it all under the rug.

Had I not left the house it would probably have been over in a day.

Other than being more calm and communicating my boundaries in a more healthy way, which I am now learning, what could I have done better? I feel like if I let him rage, I'm sending the message that it's acceptable behavior; if I defend myself, it perpetuates, and if I walk away it threatens him and is fuel on the fire.

I guess the answer is, to quote briefcase, to defend myself differently. Keep calm, validate him, not taking it personally. So during a rage, that includes not interrupting him but allowing him to interrupt me; letting him curse at me (nicely asking him not to call me names only results in a "f#%* you"... . I've tried it), and letting him repeatedly accuse me of something that fits some twisted story he created? Is there a way to "take healthy control" of the rage, or do I just calmly validate his emotions and discuss it another time?

He has been out of town for over a month, during which I have discovered the disorder and am learning (daily) all I can. I am looking forward to puting some new skills into play - or trying at least.

[Mcgddss]

For me, taking the time out is more about me feeling better than about his reaction to it.

He has only had on major rage since I learned about the time out.

I can tell you that I felt better that day than I had in a long time.  I was fortunate that when I came back (20 min)  he was already calm.

I think that you tried going to another room and seen that that doesn't take you far enough away from the rage.

I told him that I was going for a walk and would be back in a set time.  I think this gave him time to calm himself and he didn't fear that I was "leaving" because I told him I would be back.

We are all new at this so keep up the good work.

[waverider]

Once you truly accept the following:

It doesn't work

You realise they are just trying to engage you, not solve a problem

You dont have to be right, and you cant convince them as resolution is not their aim

You dont have to have the last word

You truly realize they have a disordered mind

You truly believe you dont, and you have confidence in your own truth.

It is your own insecurities that keeps you engaged in conflict

The words just represent thoughts and feelings, not facts.

Thoughts and feelings cant hurt you especially when YOU know the facts

In the big picture most of the time it's just plain irrelevant and a waste of stress

[allibaba]

and if I walk away it threatens him and is fuel on the fire.

For me, I had to find a way to get away without triggering his fear of abandonment.  The first couple of times I said something like "This conversation is making me uncomfortable and I am going to go outside and work in the garden before I say something that I regret.  If you want to come out and work with me, I will be outside."  It worked well because he could peek out the window and see that I hadn't abandoned him.  I had actually invited him to participate.  CloudyDays uses this technique too and its worked for her as well.  If you don't garden, another option might be to say "I need to exit this conversation because I am no longer comfortable with it but I am going to go watch X movie.  Feel free to join me later."  Other options might be taking the dogs for a walk... . or going to the gym but I say I will be back at X time and then I am. 

Believe me it took every fiber of my being to be loving when he was calling me a "stupid f idiot" and telling me that I am the laziest mf on earth and that the world would have been a better place had I not ever been born.    Bear in mind that I am a mother, a professional and I work hard and support him financially (he works but its not well paid). We have a nice house and a nice life and a lot of that is attributable to my hard work.

Him: spits in my face and accuses me of being in a bar. Doesn't speak to me for 2 days and is predictably nasty.

  This is an extinction burst. Adult equivalent to a child melting down in the grocery store when you told him that he can't have a candy bar.  How I treat my husband after the extinction burst has a lot to do with how long his mood lasts.  Am I loving despite his stupidness?  Do I check in and let him know I care?  I know this sounds odd but it does help.  For example, he starts being abusive so I say "I'm done with this conversation.  I'm going to my friend X's house (or I'm going to the park) for an hour."  If he spits and says that I am going to a bar - I might say "I'm not ok with you spitting at me so I am going to leave the house.  I'm going to X's house and you can call me there if you need me.  I will be back at 5:30 with takeout from X if you want it."

So during a rage, that includes not interrupting him but allowing him to interrupt me; letting him curse at me (nicely asking him not to call me names only results in a "f#%* you"... . I've tried it), and letting him repeatedly accuse me of something that fits some twisted story he created? Is there a way to "take healthy control" of the rage, or do I just calmly validate his emotions and discuss it another time?

I had to calmly sit back and come up with my own set of boundaries for fights.  What will I put up with and what won't I put up with.  The beauty is that he doesn't actually have to agree.  Absolutely no buy in from your partner required! and you do not need to tell him in advance what you are up to!  And then I have to implement them consistently.  For me its * no name calling * I won't stay and listen to anything abusive (I decide what is abusive)... . telling him that he is abusive triggers him so I make my own assessment and walk away of my own accord as soon as he tells me that I am scum of the earth (useless, suffering from severe mental problems, as soon as he starts attacking my family) * I won't stay when he gets physical (throwing things around or at me) * I won't stay if he threatens me or says he would like to cave my face in.  Since I started implementing boundaries, a few things in my house occasionally get wings... . but he hasn't destroyed anything and he has stopped saying that he wished he could hurt me (I know it sounds sick but that was my reality).

As a result of consistent boundaries - we have gone from a situation where I could have easily gotten a restraining order and gotten him charged with a few things... . to fights where he starts to lay into me and I walk away.  A couple of times he's been triggered and has actually stopped and apologized.

So during a rage, that includes not interrupting him but allowing him to interrupt me;

I'm ok with this one. 

letting him curse at me (nicely asking him not to call me names only results in a "f#%* you"... . I've tried it)

nope.  that crosses my boundaries and I let him know "you called me X and therefore I am done with this conversation",

and letting him repeatedly accuse me of something that fits some twisted story he created?

nope also crossing boundaries.

Is there a way to "take healthy control" of the rage, or do I just calmly validate his emotions and discuss it another time?

There is.  And the irony is that once they calm down you usually don't go back to the same conversation.  Maybe more senior people have ideas on this too.  Honestly this is a whole new world for me after at least 8 yrs of drama.  Its new but its working.

[allibaba]

Once you truly accept the following:

It doesn't work

You realise they are just trying to engage you, not solve a problem

You dont have to be right, and you cant convince them as resolution is not their aim

You dont have to have the last word

You truly realize they have a disordered mind

You truly believe you dont, and you have confidence in your own truth.

It is your own insecurities that keeps you engaged in conflict

The words just represent thoughts and feelings, not facts.

Thoughts and feelings cant hurt you especially when YOU know the facts

In the big picture most of the time it's just plain irrelevant and a waste of stress

This is brilliant stuff... .   Especially the last sentence!

[toomanyeggshells]

I've read this thread a couple of times and realized that allibaba has some great advice. 

My live-in uBPDbf has the same behavior allibaba describes with her H but I've been handling it not quite the right way.  I definitely leave the room or house when he starts raging, name calling and throwing things.  What I don't do is make a statement like "this conversation is making me uncomfortable ... . " before leaving the room. 

When I get up and silently leave during his rages, he always says something like "ok, don't say anything, just walk away" and he gets more upset.  I really think making a statement about why I'm leaving the conversation (if you can call his rages a conversation) might help.  I'm definitely going to try this.  Thanks!

[waverider]

When I get up and silently leave during his rages, he always says something like "ok, don't say anything, just walk away" and he gets more upset.  I really think making a statement about why I'm leaving the conversation (if you can call his rages a conversation) might help.  I'm definitely going to try this.  Thanks!

You dont need to explain each and everytime. If you've made it clear once that should be enough, and avoid "you" statements.

[allibaba]

When I get up and silently leave during his rages, he always says something like "ok, don't say anything, just walk away" and he gets more upset. 

Good luck toomanyeggshells.  My husband absolutely HATES it when I was walking away without an explanation.  The last time that I did that he actually got physical with me... . took my wallet and wouldn't let me leave.  He believes that my silence means that I don't care about him or what he is saying or that I am accepting what he said.  It was amazing how quickly changing my tact worked in my house.  Its only been a little over a month... .

I have no idea how to properly link this... . but here is the post where Grey Kitty explained I might be able to deal with my situation.  I had told him that I literally had no idea how to defend myself against verbal abuse anymore (man I thought that I had tried everything).  I had just decided "well I love my husband... . maybe being abused is just the price that I will pay to be in this relationship"  (holy sad batman) 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=200881.0

You dont need to explain each and everytime. If you've made it clear once that should be enough, and avoid "you" statements.

  Agree on this but my husband tends to have short term memory loss so I needed to explain myself a few times so that he knew I wasn't just running away.  Now I don't make a statement everytime... . only when he says "why are you walking away... . I'm still talking to you."

[Cloudy Days]

I agree with avoiding "You" Statements, make it about yourself. "Things are getting too heated for me, I need to take a break". "Things are getting overwhelming for me, I'm gonna take a walk so things can calm down". "I don't like being called X, I'm going outside for awhile till things calm down". I used to just walk off without saying anything and sometimes I still do depending on what may come out of my mouth. The important thing is that you have to stand your ground, they are going to push harder when you first do it because you are changing how you react and they don't like it. They get what they want by getting louder, meaner and more intimidating because they know you don't like it. 

[tootiefruitie]

Can someone help me find the info on "jade/ing"?

My H and I were in engaged in a convesation where I was "defending" my neice against "his conceived behaviour flaws" of her. He was accusatory and she hasn't even done anything yet! She's 10! God forbid she's not like HIS daughter, Little Miss Perfect.

How do I rearrange the conversation when HwBPD is SOO judgemental? Is this characteristic of BPDs?

I can't stand judgemental people. Who are they to judge? 

[toomanyeggshells]

You dont need to explain each and everytime. If you've made it clear once that should be enough, and avoid "you" statements.

Knowing uBPDbf, I think I'll have to make a statement a number of times, and I will definitely only use "I" statements.

He believes that my silence means that I don't care about him or what he is saying or that I am accepting what he said.

Same here.  He's made it known that he hates when I don't respond and walk away.

[toomanyeggshells]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=200881.0

 

That post contains really great info and I've actually read it more than once.  I've tried validating alot but I don't think I'm using the right words.  Even when I use exact examples from the lessons, it makes no difference to the situation.  I need alot more practice.

[Cloudy Days]

That post contains really great info and I've actually read it more than once.  I've tried validating alot but I don't think I'm using the right words.  Even when I use exact examples from the lessons, it makes no difference to the situation.  I need alot more practice.

Sometimes less is more, you really have to figure out how to put things in your own words. I have a notebook that I write them down in just to keep them fresh in my mind, it's very hard to think in the moment when you actually need it. I found that it works 10x better while trying to avoid a rage rather than doing it in the middle of a rage. Once they have gotten beyond a point there really is nothing you can say that will help.

[waverider]

Can someone help me find the info on "jade/ing"?

My H and I were in engaged in a convesation where I was "defending" my neice against "his conceived behaviour flaws" of her. He was accusatory and she hasn't even done anything yet! She's 10! God forbid she's not like HIS daughter, Little Miss Perfect.

How do I rearrange the conversation when HwBPD is SOO judgemental? Is this characteristic of BPDs?

I can't stand judgemental people. Who are they to judge? 

from another post I made:

JADE

J=Justify

A=Argue

D=Defend

E-Explain

Once you slip into this mode you are on the back foot and becoming more and more insecure. A pwBPD soothes themselves by projection, they have insecurities and they deal with them by passing them on to you. This is done by accusing and provoking those close to them. If you join in the issue you validate it as normal and worthwhile. Putting you on the back foot by pushing you into JADE puts them back on top, and more in control. It is part of their soothing mechanism. It is not necessarily deliberate, but is just an instinctive coping tool.

[tootiefruitie]

Thanks waverider.

I just don't know what to say to accusations? Yesterday, he calmly asked/said that he found $20 in an eyeglass case of mine in a drawer and was wondering if I was "hiding" money from him which I'm not! I put it there so it's not lost in the junk drawer. Then about 2 weeks ago, he snooped through my phone wondering if I was talking to my "ex".

It makes me feel so defeated that he says/does this to me.

[Cloudy Days]

I just don't know what to say to accusations? Yesterday, he calmly asked/said that he found $20 in an eyeglass case of mine in a drawer and was wondering if I was "hiding" money from him which I'm not! I put it there so it's not lost in the junk drawer. Then about 2 weeks ago, he snooped through my phone wondering if I was talking to my "ex".

It makes me feel so defeated that he says/does this to me.

Well, the phone thing is a little harder to tackle, but as far as the "hiding" money thing goes. He did find money that looked like it could have been hidden. So you could easily validate that it's understandable that he would think that's what you were doing, because if you had found money in a drawer it would make you think that too.

Just make him feel heard and that what he feels is normal because anyone could possibly feel that way in the same situation.

I've struggled with the phone thing too, it's harder to do because they are going off of a feeling and not something that's found. You could possibly ask him why he feels that you are talking to your ex and then validate how he feels about it. I've not mastered this though and it comes and goes with my husband. He will do it out of the blue when he is in a major mood so I don't always have to deal with it.