Am I the one with the askew perspective?

[Spaces]

I'm really not too sure how to word this question, so i'll explain first.

As i've mentioned in previous posts, i've read a lot of this site, i read the success stories, i've read the brutality, and i've read the answers and the motivation.  one thing i read over and over again unsettles me.  I keep reading that everything is all very very one sided.  mr BPD freaks out, mrs NON tries to rationalize and tries not to react, mr BPD gets over the episode, life is happy again, rinse/repeat.  madam BPD does something completely outlandish in order to control non, non tries desperately not to react, walking on egg-shells until the episode finishes, rinse/repeat.  so i guess my question is... . why not fight back?  why do our friends/family/lovers who are afflicted with BPD get a pass because they're afflicted with BPD?  why do we have to "deal with it".  reminds me of the book 1984, just because its easier to say there are five fingers doesn't make it true.  if she's being (sorry, can't think of a pg13 word) then i'm gonna call her out on it.  if she's being irrational and loopy i say "sweetheart, whats up?  whats wrong" and if she doesn't let me try to help then... .   why is it my problem? 

am i being insensitive?  am i looking at it wrong?  i honestly don't understand the other perspective "oh its ok, i'll do the dishes YOUR way to make you happy"... .   if the dishes are done the dishes are done.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[united for now]

Life isn't fair or equal.

Some people had some horrible experiences that scarred them in some horrible ways. They don't perceive events the same way "normal" people do. And from what you write your gf is one of these scarred people. That doesn't mean she gets a free pass on life (or doing the dishes). It does mean that she is incapable of responding or behaving as you wish she would due to her scars. She has an emotional handicap. And if you "choose" to stay with her, then you are doing so with an open heart and an open mind - accepting her as she is... . not secretly resenting her or trying to control her to change.

And yeah, if the dishes are done the dishes are done. You don't have to get drawn into a fight about "how" or "what fashion" they should have been done. That is part of learning to establish healthy boundaries and taking care of yourself - not enabling them.

These relationships are hard work and require a lot of commitment and determination to succeed. The non has to be healthy themselves to withstand the constant barrage of abuse and constantly shifting expectations. If you have your own scars or issues to work though then I strongly suggest you get counseling for yourself, since she will bring out the worst in you over time, with little reward to show for it.

What it means is that she works on taking care of herself while you work on taking care of yourself. We are here to help you learn that balance... .

[Spaces]

i don't think i'm phrasing my question right.  i'll think about it

[waverider]

BPD is like a wildfire that feeds on conflict. Rising to the"fight" is like spraying fuel out of a hose onto the fire.>>Escalation.

Conflict is the projection soothing tool of many pwBPD

Out of control wildfires are fought by clearing firebreaks around them (your boundaries). This protects you and your welfare. The fire is then left to exhaust itself as it becomes starved of fuel. Forced self soothing

You cannot fire desperate illogical behavior with logic, that just results in chaos.

Neither does it mean standing there being a doormat and getting burnt alive.

Neither can you turn a pwBPD into a non by making demands.

[MaybeSo]

This is the Staying Board for romantic partners.

Romantic relationships in Western culture are by choice; purely optional.

You don't HAVE to do anything.

Nons are not by definition always the most skilled at intimacy, or the best partners,  either.

Nons generally have some things to learn, too.

This board does not teach toleration of abuse.

It teaches self-care, in or out of any relationship we choose to participate in. 

[Spaces]

What I'm trying to ask is: it seems everyone is trying to accommodate in sake of saving the relationship.  Why does it seem there is no onus for the other party.  I'm not suggesting to instigate, or even propagate a fight, I'm saying doesn't showing back bone telling the other party "I'm deserving of, and expect mutual respect."

[VeryFree]

What I'm trying to ask is: it seems everyone is trying to accommodate in sake of saving the relationship.  Why does it seem there is no onus for the other party.  I'm not suggesting to instigate, or even propagate a fight, I'm saying doesn't showing back bone telling the other party "I'm deserving of, and expect mutual respect."

I think the 'mistake' you make here, is that you rationalize things. You expect the BPD sees things the same as us and thinks the same way we do.

But they don't. They aren't mentally equiped to selfreflect and to think about your words with an open mind. Their thinking is only about them and their pain.

For me and other NONs showing backbone sure would tell what you want to say. For a BPD it's only a trigger that you want to abandon her and that you're evil.

[123Phoebe]

What I'm trying to ask is: it seems everyone is trying to accommodate in sake of saving the relationship.  Why does it seem there is no onus for the other party.  I'm not suggesting to instigate, or even propagate a fight, I'm saying doesn't showing back bone telling the other party "I'm deserving of, and expect mutual respect."

I can see how it could seem that way, at first.  Or until, us 'nons' get a more accurate view of how other people perceive us, by becoming more in tune with ourselves and what we're allowing into our lives.  The saying 'We teach others how to treat us' comes to mind.

I used to think I should be able to tell someone what to do and have every right to expect them to do it and love me for it! CHANGE!  I would feel so upset when they didn't, almost devastated    I did not get it, at all, until realizing that that's the way my mom relates to the world, the way she relates to me and I would DO what she asked, or there would be a whole lot of emotional hell to pay.  It was just so normal and unconscious.  Once I became aware of this, it was like 'Whoa, something's gotta give here'.

'You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar'   And we can do that while still having a backbone, by learning and using the tools... . Learning more about ourselves (values, boundaries, acceptance of our own imperfections etc... . ) and how we translate all of that out onto the world.

People with BPD are going to try to PUSH us back into what their version of us deems appropriate.  It's up to us to stand up for who we are and what we believe in regardless of all the racket.

When we gain and can maintain our own self respect is when change is most likely to happen, all without expecting a single change to come from the pwBPD.



 

[123Phoebe]

I used to think I should be able to tell someone what to do and have every right to expect them to do it and love me for it! CHANGE!  I would feel so upset when they didn't, almost devastated    I did not get it, at all, until realizing that that's the way my mom relates to the world, the way she relates to me and I would DO what she asked, or there would be a whole lot of emotional hell to pay.  It was just so normal and unconscious.  Once I became aware of this, it was like 'Whoa, something's gotta give here'.

Whoops, made a pretty big boo boo here... .   My mom wouldn't ask, she'd demand and get real huffy; huge difference.

[waverider]

The things you are bringing up represent tail end symptoms of BPD thinking. It takes a long time to wind it back to a more manageable reality, or as close as you can get. You need to start with more basic core issues of lessening conflict and triggering first, before you can address some of these symptoms which are really a consequence of enabling a sense of entitlement.

You need to start at the foundations

So yes in the fullness of time you may be able to address these concerns, but they are the wrong place to start. As you go through the process you will also start to change your perspective on what is important

[Spaces]

I think i undertand.  and it is less about me understanding then it is about me understanding why i don't understand (had to read that a couple times, but its right). 

throughout my life, I've been surrounded by really, really horrible people.  An abusive father, abusive teachers, family members who would physically hurt me, literally everyday, and my weak mother who wouldn't ever defend me, or help me, or even comfort me.  Fortunately, the opposite was true, if not on an everyday period.  My grandmother was the most loving, generous, giving, saint-like person I've ever met.  So eventually, I simply turned off emotion, and through counseling, soul-searching, religious meditation, and a lot of time, i've learned patience for myself, and that has flown over for patience for other people.  The other hting i've learned is, and its something my grandmother once told me (i've heard else where countless times) "the only people who can hurt you, are the people you let hurt you". 

This seems to be only half the equation.  The other half is simply, my dBPDgf seems to have also made her own journey, and she's at the place where (i'm thinking) you were referring to.  I'm not saying she doesn't go off on me for no reason, and these aren't the arguments i'm referring to (because really they aren't arguments, they're me trying to rationalize what i'm hearing, trying to smooth things out, and not lose my sanity), i'm refering to the fights that have logic with them, even though irrational there are reasons, and i fight back. 

I think for us, thats important, for two reason:  first, she wouldn't respect me, and use me like a brush.  second, i wouldn't stand for it and she wouldn't even be a memory.  i think i am VERY fortunate, i think we found each other at the right time for each other.  and i think the reason i don't understand is because, simply, i don't have to deal with the chaos that most people dealing with a SO who is BPD has to deal with.

i truely hope that i'm right, otherwise i'm blind.  also, i hope that i'm not being a negative influence here, this site has helped me (us) a lot, and i appreciate it more than i can express through typing.

[united for now]

It's great that you had the love from your grandmother to fall back on 

Growing up in chaotic and abusive families, I think many of us learned to view disrespect and abuse as "normal". Our own perceptions and beliefs in how relationships work got twisted and skewed because of this. We wind up repeating the patterns we learned as children.

Fighting with a person who is mentally ill hasn't gotten you what you want so far, has it?

Expecting that a person "not" act mentally ill won't get you very far either. I like to use the phrase - trying to get a duck to bark only frustrates you and pisses off the duck.



It's easy to get lost in what is fair and what "should" happen.  Our desires and dreams don't match our reality - and this gap - the reality gap - causes us lots of pain. We want something different, less painful, more equal. What we get isn't even close.

What you are feeling is natural and part of growing and healing. Acceptance of your reality can be quite painful and depressing if you allow it to be. Or it can be a freeing experience where you drop your expectations and break free from your learned childhood expectations of what life and love "should" be like.

I'm glad that you are finding the support and answers you are searching for here. Keep posting.

[waverider]

There is a big difference between fighting back and applying strong healthy boundaries. One has a purpose and direction and a good chance of progress, the other is reactive, often inconsistent, and often distracts from the issue and spirals into "winning" points.

[Scout99]

am i being insensitive?  am i looking at it wrong?  i honestly don't understand the other perspective "oh its ok, i'll do the dishes YOUR way to make you happy"... .   if the dishes are done the dishes are done.

I really think that you have gotten some pretty good answers here already... . But since I, like many people having been in relationships with people with different PD's, have been initially struggling with the same kind of thinking like you are right now, maybe you'll find something useful from me sharing it... . After all... . we both get logic... .

And from a mentally healthy perspective, your thinking is not that askew... . I thought exactly like you to begin with, (then living in a relationship with a person with NPD, which in some ways are different but also shares similarities with BPD... . The selfishness and the maturity-level of perhaps a five-year-old when it comes to relating to other people and understanding other peoples reactions or thinking can be found in both these PD's.

So why not apply logic, start parenting and teaching how things should be done by standing my ground, being a "good" example and so on... . ?

I tried... . And my ex N responded sometimes at least in theory in moments when he wanted to mirror my behavior... . But not at all for the purpose I thought, (that is with a motive to learn and evolve as a human being realizing that my way was sort of right... .  ). His motive at those times was instead to try and score points with me temporarily to boost his NS from me, (narcissistic supply... . fuel in the form of confirmation, validation, awe, admiration, and so on that the N needs to feel good about him or herself... . ). He never intended to learn from me... . That part he wouldn't get at all... . In his mind he was superior to me. What could he then possibly have to learn from me?

Now that type of reasoning is disturbed on his part... . It is a grown man using the logic of a five year old in the sand-pit working out how to get all the buckets and shovels from the other kids for himself... . But performed by a fully grown up man... .

Now the NPD's are different from the BPD's in that they are way more selfish, (or at least selfish in a different way), and also much less emotional than the BPD's... . The BPD person is operating very much from a place where fear of abandonment combined with a very waining sense of self and being stuck in a way of reasoning of a five year old but in a grown up costume rules their person... .

Now... . They ought to be able to be parented... . you might think... . (I know I did... . ). I mean if they learn smarter or better ways to do things, react to things and so on their lives ought to improve... . ?

Sure, that is a great thought in theory... . The only glitch is that not even fully healthy grown up people are going to let other people parent them or even, God forbid, try to tell them what to do!

In fact if you study MI, motivational interviewing, which is a very strong motivational tool, you are taught that trying to get someone to do something in a certain way will in almost 100% of the cases result in that the person will do exactly the opposite of what you have wanted them to do... .

(And to take it even further... . United for now gives a very clear image with the duck and the woof... . You, who are not mentally challenged, are different from your girlfriend who is... . and comparing how different the two of you think, the story of the duck does apply... . )

But still, if healthy grown up people will react negatively to persuasion or being told what to do... . Then what would doing the same thing to an emotionally challenged person result in, you think?

It would be worse! The thing is that the five year old underdeveloped emotional part of the BPD might respond to guidance... . But the grown up part will reject it and in a much less balanced way than a normal grown up would... . Because it would also trigger their equally underdeveloped fears of inadequacy, not being good enough, worthy of your love, and ultimately always always abandoned... . Since the five year-old within will interpret your efforts as a sign that you don't accept her for who she is, that she is not good enough or that you will leave her... .

And then the circus is on... .

I am not saying that an at least smallish bit of "parenting" or at least a bit of mature role-modeling on the non's part could be helpful... . But... . Most of us... . non's too, don't respond well to being told what to do... . Having a disorder challenging the mind won't make it any less intimidating... . Quite the contrary... .

So like most others have said here before... . You have to first an foremost come to the realization that you can only work with and change you... . create boundaries and so on, and above all assess and assess again whether the advantages of the relationship outweighs the disadvantages... .

And then if you choose to stay in the relationship, work on the alliance between you two... . The only way we can influence other people at all is through building strong alliances... . (And with influencing other people I don't mean change them... . only inspire or tickle their motivation by being consistent in our behavior so they can themselves get motivated or inspired or can perhaps dare to choose to take a first small step towards trusting you). And that is particulairly true when it comes to people with BPD. This since they have such a fundamentally broken idea of trust and lost sense of self... . So in order to get to a point where even you as a "role-model" will have any influence over the possible evolvement of a person with BPD there must first be a platform for trust... . Unless there is trust, you won't be able to influence them in any way... . You will just increase the engulfment. And again... . It is not enough that you know you can be trusted... . That means nothing to anyone... . Trust is what happens when a person by their own free will chooses to trust you... .

Now, there are plenty of ways you can go about to build trust... . But which ever you choose, the one that will work is the one your BPD person chooses to respond to... . That is, again just as little as you could teach them anything, you won't be able to make them trust you... . You can only open up the option for them to choose... .

I won't say that being firm but consistent on not very important stuff like the dishes will never work, because I'm sure that there are those who respond to that seeing it as a token of trust, perhaps... . ?

But for most BPD's they will just respond to that like an invitation to war... . Why? Since most people with these disorders also have a fair amount of problems with anxiety, obsessive behaviors, (that often shows if there are some weird ideas about dishes going on for instance), and panicattacks... .

War that to them is not about the dishes... . But instead a war clawing for solid ground and safety trying to fend off fearful thoughts and overwhelming fearful feelings of catastrophic proportions... . stuff like:

-You will only love me if I change or please you... . Fearing imminent abandonment since they feel they will fail at giving you what you want... .

-Doing the dishes any other way than their, (perhaps compulsive, obsessive) way, will cause anxiety, physical pain or worse set of a panic attack... . In essence they believe your way is wrong in a disturbed way that can't be logically corrected, (hence it wouldn't be disturbed... . )

-Fear of being controlled sets in... . Since they themselves feel (in a disturbed and unrealistic way), they need to control everything otherwise everything will fall apart... . Giving control to someone else takes trust. And usually BPD's feel very little or no trust... . (Hardly even for themselves... . ).

-On a more primitive level it triggers defense-mechanisms like aggression resembling the ones a cornered animal will display... .

Now once trust is established a lot can happen... . But again not through telling someone what to do... . But instead opening up different options, expanding their horizons and making it possible for them to dare to choose to first see things from different perspectives and then choose to act and learn from it... . That's a lot what DBT is about for instance or even schema-therapy... .

But there is also a reason why it is better to work through such stuff with a therapist... . and not with your family or spouse... . Since the trust and alliance is easier to establish with a neutral part compared to a family member... . We have different roles to play... .

And finally... . A BPD is a disorder... . A mental challenge, that sometimes will not respond to treatment at all, and sometimes partly through time and the natural maturity process through aging and/or with the right support and help from professionals the symptoms of the disorder may diminish... . Some people can even get their diagnose stricken and declared free from their disorder... . But full recovery is unusual, and even in those cases as a partner you must still choose to be accepting of the fact that under the surface there is a disorder... . And you have to find it in you to accept that, if you are to choose to have a relationship with the person living it... .

And that is really the only thing you can control... .

At least, that's my take on this... . at this point where I stand right now... .

[waverider]

pwBPD can mirror sharing responsible duties/chores as scout99 points out for for pwNPD, in the case of my RS it is part of a neediness for approval, at that moment. It is not out of true acceptance of responsibility, and hence not sustained.

This can be so disappointing, it is almost as if they are unlearning somethings while learning others(1 step forward 1 step back). So you try hard and feel you are getting somewhere, but the net result is nowhere. It can exhaust you trying to "teach" responsible behavior like this, as they are not really learning, just parroting to meet the need of the moment.

You cannot exert control over a person with a PD, only a degree over the environment around them, so that they may respond differently, and hopefully more favourably

[Chosen]

Spaces,

I think I understand what you mean... . see if my perspective helps you.

We choose to be in a relationship with a pwBPD.  We may not know they're BPD when we start going out with them/ married them, but even after we knew we stayed. 

We realise they are different from us in two ways: their thinking and their actions.

We have to realise we cannot change their thinking.  A lot of times we won't even be able to understand why they think the way they do.  But because we want the relationship (more than we want to leave), we have to improve it.  How?  We use tools and boundaries to help us change their actions.  We let them know what is acceptable to us and what isn't.  We don't walk on eggshells trying to avoid negative situations, but we learn better ways of expressing ourselves because it smoothens out the relationship.

To be honest, if being right and fair is more important than the relationship, I think most of us won't be in Staying board... .  

[toomanyeggshells]

It's easy to get lost in what is fair and what "should" happen.  Our desires and dreams don't match our reality - and this gap - the reality gap - causes us lots of pain. We want something different, less painful, more equal. What we get isn't even close.

What you are feeling is natural and part of growing and healing. Acceptance of your reality can be quite painful and depressing if you allow it to be. Or it can be a freeing experience where you drop your expectations and break free from your learned childhood expectations of what life and love "should" be like.

Those two paragraphs sum up exactly where I'm stuck     I have a very hard time accepting where I'm at with uBPDbf, that my r/s with him is always going to be filled with turmoil and stress and not at all how I thought it was going to be.  Sometimes I start to tell uBPDbf about some funny or crazy thing that happened at work, he makes a nasty comment, or accuses me of having sex with my boss  ,   and I remember who I'm in a r/s with - someone who really is incapable of just having "normal" conversation like people in other relationships do.

Your words, UFN, have definitely given me something to think about.

[waverider]

It's easy to get lost in what is fair and what "should" happen.  Our desires and dreams don't match our reality - and this gap - the reality gap - causes us lots of pain. We want something different, less painful, more equal. What we get isn't even close.

What you are feeling is natural and part of growing and healing. Acceptance of your reality can be quite painful and depressing if you allow it to be. Or it can be a freeing experience where you drop your expectations and break free from your learned childhood expectations of what life and love "should" be like.

Those two paragraphs sum up exactly where I'm stuck     I have a very hard time accepting where I'm at with uBPDbf, that my r/s with him is always going to be filled with turmoil and stress and not at all how I thought it was going to be.  Sometimes I start to tell uBPDbf about some funny or crazy thing that happened at work, he makes a nasty comment, or accuses me of having sex with my boss  ,   and I remember who I'm in a r/s with - someone who really is incapable of just having "normal" conversation like people in other relationships do.

Your words, UFN, have definitely given me something to think about.

"THE REALITY GAP"<< Book on Acceptance and commitment Therapy ACT), by Russ Harris. ACT is used for BPD and addictions, but it also just a useful therapy even for us nons