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Author Topic: Did WE ever love them?  (Read 4251 times)
Blaise
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« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2013, 04:32:38 AM »

I also thought I had a normal FOO, in fact I never saw my parents argue, ever! I now know that this was not normal, and over the last year or so I have come to grips with the fact that I did not see or receive real intimacy from my parents.

I find this very interesting. I think it shows that it's not that much about the r/s between our parents -- mine argued all the time -- but about whether they recognized our needs, showed empathy, validated us and our emotions and learned us to be independent.

They did not in my case and I have enormous difficulties figuring out what my needs are and taking care of myself. My r/s with my dBPDexgf was all about her needs, not mine. It took me time to realize it and as soon as I started standing up for my needs, it was the end.
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croovis

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« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2013, 01:11:07 AM »

Well, I think after my r/s with my BPDex, I feel that I cannot even define love anymore. Love meant so many different things at different times in the r/s. Love meant love, meant lust, meant need, meant like, meant I will always be there for you, meant I care about your wellbeing... . after seeing love fluidly morph so many times I have honestly given up even trying to understand it.

People can mean so many different things when they say love. Its probably even true that every person has a slightly different mental schema of what love is. Can you say that two starry eyed 16 year olds don't really love each other because they never have had to sacrifice? Would you recognize it as "love" if two people were sacrificially devoted to each other but had no needs whatsoever, like a couple of saints?

Do you love like Jesus Christ? Or Tristan and Isolde? Or Romeo and Juliet? Or Don Juan? Like a 16 year old? Like a narcissistic man? Like a codependant woman? Is your love not a biological act fostering the reproduction of the species? Is it heavenly? Is it unconditional? Does your love turn to hate? Do you need? Do you require?

It truly seems like a nebulous concept. Too many authors and cultures and time periods have defined it in their own way. All of these things I've mentioned could probably be love. Its a thing that involves some kind of unitive impulse between two people. Beyond that I couldn't say. Maybe it is multifaceted like a gemstone.

People say "I love you" to each other, hoping for a confirmation from the other person that they have both acquired the same state of feeling. But you only hear "I love you". You have no idea what that could mean to the other person because it could mean so many different things. I would say that we all loved our partners in some way or another. Same for them. It certainly was a powerful experience wasn't it? It happened to you. Maybe you thought it was love. It probably was.
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ScotisGone74
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« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2013, 04:13:06 AM »

While it is true that alot of people may have their own definitions of love, I can tell you what it does NOT entail.  Love does Not mean:  I can sleep around, I can lie to you and then say it was your fault when I get caught in it, I can remain in 'love' with you while you marry someone else or have their children, that you make me feel guilty for how You Feel, that I am totally responsible for you 24/7.   Love on some level involves trust, unfortunately it is one of the characteristics that many BPDs are not capable of, because really they don't trust themselves, how can they trust anyone else?

I think the further that Nons get away from the wreckage of a BPD relationship the more they can realize their own definition of love and what it means to them.  When you are with someone that will say anything possible to keep you embroiled in their daily drama love is just another word to them. 
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goldylamont
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« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2013, 05:56:26 AM »

I believe that I loved who I Thought that she was... . but Not the Real person hiding behind the mask, the lies, the manipulation.   I loved who she pretended to be for so long, who she tried so desperately at times to be, who she wanted me to think she was,  but Not the other person she turned out to really be.   Thats the Problem here and what I see with alot of posters on here, including myself, we loved that one side of them that they pretended to be, but we CANNOT seperate that from the nasty, hateful person that they were hiding, they are both One and the Same.  And unlike a storybook,  Love does have limits, Love alone, without trust, without honesty, without integrity,   is not going to last no matter how strong it may feel.     

I agree with this post a lot. I do know my love was real. I loved before her and have fallen in love since her, and I know that I had the same feelings for her much of the time in our r/s. However, totally accept now that I was just unaware of who this person truly was until things got bad at the end, and then completely went nuts after the breakup.

I really am trying to be critical of my role and uncover all stones that I can to learn. But so far all i've determined was that for me personally, i wasn't co-depedent, I never had delusions of "fixing" her, i wasn't trying to date my mom who didn't give me love when i was young. i just really loved being around this person, and i left when i started to question the rock solid trust i had in who i thought she was.

What she gave me--now I know that I can be content with one woman, that i'm not a cheater, that I can enjoy living with someone I love. Just gotta be someone healthy for it to last. What I gave her? Honestly I think I just wasn't a pushover like most men she cycles through, I gave her chase and also I think I dealt with arguments and anger more even keeled than some other men (judging by what I know of other r/s of hers before and after ours). In the 4 yrs we were together, I can't remember anyone, my friends or hers, saying foul things about her; everyone loved her and any issues we had were just between us.

After we broke up though... . at least 5 or 6 people have described her as toxic, a tortured soul, a w***, b***, c***; both women and men have said these things. It's so painful for me to hear so I just don't even want to hear any more bad news about it, leave it behind. I feel like somehow, for a while and with me she had a longer respite from her true spiteful self. I didn't change her one bit, but I think I evened her out longer than anyone else had till this point. She did the same for me in regards to length of r/s... . but i didn't come with all that bagggggage
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dangoldfool
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« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2013, 06:50:02 AM »

I Loved things about my ex, however, I accepted her habits that I did not like. So I think I just settled for her. Some of her habit like smoking cigarettes, or the drama with her friends, I did not like. She would always say "you don't love me", and I would respond back "you don't love me" in which she say "I do love you" and "I will never leave you".

My past relationships didn't go much better. What I thought was love it turned to be lust.

I'm not sure if I will ever really know, what true love, really feels like.
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Just Stumbling Along

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« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2013, 09:09:38 AM »

For me the answer is yes; but the reality is that the person that I loved did not exist.

I did not know that she was pwBPD during our entire relationship (almost 20 years).  At first she created a persona that was the person that I wanted to be with.  She portrayed a person that had similar values, beliefs, and ideals.  She portrayed that she and I had similar goals and life styles.  She was extremely deceptive and very convincing.  She convinced me that this false persona was real.  I did not know about the "secret life".  Later, when the rages and the chaos started and became more frequent; it was always PMS, or stress, or someone made her SO angry.  I did not know about our "break ups" because they were "stealth break ups".  She didn't tell me or let me know; but she decided that we were done, the relationship was over.  Later she decided that we were back together, but didn't say that either.  I realized this later from various things.

Frequently she brought back the false person and around other people she acted completely normally.  So I believed that the false person was really her and the behavior that I knew about was due to other factors.

Because I thought she was normal, I treated the relationship as normal.  I was committed to her and to the relationship.  There were lots of things that I did that I now recognize was enabling, but at the time was just doing what needed to be done for us.

I don't believe that I was trying to rescue her, nor was I addicted to the chaos.

I had a good childhood.  I have some issues that I should work on.  Doesn't everyone.  I agree that I have some issues, but I don't think that these attracted me to her.  I was attracted to the persona that she portrayed; not my mirror image, but similar (as listed above).

What made the breakup so devastating for me was realizing that none of it had ever been real.  I was in love with a person that never existed for so long.  Realizing the betrayal, infidelity, deceit.

I read a lot of posts on here that are about what is wrong with us as "nons"; Co dependency, personality problems, etc.  From my experience, in my relationship, I believed that I was in a normal relationship and committed to a person that had flaws.  I didn't like those flaws, and some were serious.  There was also a lot that I did not know about.  Those that I did know about I talked to her about and had to fix because our lives were joined.

In some of these posts, it seems that the pwBPD gets a pass.  The lies, false persona, deceit, etc is not factored in.  The "blame" shifts to the "non".  Maybe that is true in some cases, maybe many cases.  But in my case, I believe that I did what a good husband would do; most (not all) of the problem was her constant deceit.

Sorry for the long rant
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Ironmanrises
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« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2013, 10:39:24 AM »

The fact that the exBPDSO is not/or cannot process any of their responsibility to the carnage left in the aftermath of the relationship only adds to the significant amount of responsibility that the non is left with and has no choice but to process.

We are left with processing their pain. A mountain of it. We cannot deposit that onto anyone else. That is not how our personalities are designed. And how can we process all of that pain?

It overloads us. That is what it has been like for me.

I am processing all the pain she does not want to deal with. She left it on my lap. Within my walls. Unfair. An awful thing to do to someone. Intentional or not.

I didnt cause any of that pain. But now i have to take responsibility for it.

Only compounds the misery i am in. Exponentially.

Yes, i allowed a disordered person back into my life knowingly.

My punishment shouldnt include processing pain for 2 people.

But it does. I tumble still.
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Phoenix.Rising
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« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2013, 05:12:09 PM »

Love can mean a lot of things, but to me, at the core of it is UNSELFISHNESS.  Was I selfish with my ex?  Most definitely.  Did I love her?  As much as I was capable of at the time. 
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croovis

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« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2013, 07:52:24 PM »

PheonixRising,

I guess I want to examine this concept more. At the core of love is unselfishness.

Jesus preached an unselfish love. Then you would love- never demanding anything. But all of us here have needs- needs that we feel weren't met by our relationships. Musn't we all bring things to the table, or risk losing our partner? Can we have a relationship without requiring things? If so then we are verging away from Erotic love, and into something more religious.
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ScotisGone74
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« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2013, 10:34:15 PM »

I geuss thats the point-no loving relationship , even without BPD, is perfect due to that fact-that We All have needs of some type.  I don't think that you can honestly have a loving relationship if we Never required anything from out partners.  In the instance with BPD's, the majority of them truly don't love themselves, so they grasp ahold of whatever they think or believe at That moment in time is capable of loving them. 

Loving someone like Jesus did is a whole other ballgame, most people are not capable of such a thing, because in some way we are ALL selfish to a degree.  With BPD's selfishness reaches new heights unfortunately. 
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goldylamont
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« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2013, 12:41:53 AM »

We are left with processing their pain. A mountain of it. We cannot deposit that onto anyone else. That is not how our personalities are designed. And how can we process all of that pain?

It overloads us. That is what it has been like for me.

I am processing all the pain she does not want to deal with. She left it on my lap. Within my walls. Unfair. An awful thing to do to someone. Intentional or not.

I didnt cause any of that pain. But now i have to take responsibility for it.

Only compounds the misery i am in. Exponentially.

Yes, i allowed a disordered person back into my life knowingly.

My punishment shouldnt include processing pain for 2 people.

But it does. I tumble still.

Ironmanfalls i may be out of my r/s longer than you. i can empathize with how you feel. Here are some things that are helping me now to move forward with healing:

1) ___ happens/don't take it personal -- working on myself to not take the r/s personal, the lies and betrayal is very healing. we have an idea of ourselves, who we are, and we tend to cling to this. and this idea of our self is what has been damaged. for many months i've been letting go of this idea of myself, softening it, allowing it to flow and be lighter, faster, so that i can move it out of the way of any harm cast my way by her behaviors or my own thoughts. i am glad i have the knowledge that she does this to many men, because this shows me that i can't take it personally. don't take it personally, it's not about you it's about them and their issues

2) recontextualize -- i'm still studying and working with recontextualizing, but this has to do with looking at the events of my past and understanding and accepting them from a different perspective. the r/s caused me a lot of pain. yet also i benefited in many ways--i learned that i enjoy being monogamous in a long term committed r/s, i learned that i am a very patient, fair and stable man to have survived being around a person who at times would stop at nothing to try to punish me--i reacted often, sure, but i'm proud overall of my behaviors. i've learned my limits and boundaries. because she still doesn't have her isht together financially, i live in the apt we got together (she had to move out) and it's the greatest blessing; i wouldn't have moved here if not for the r/s. there's more, but you get the picture. work to understand your past from a different perspective. recontextualize

3) it wasn't a mistake/nothing "wrong" was truly done to me -- this is a hard one but just hear me out. surely this person did all kinds of crazy isht in the past, to me and others. suffering, however, occurs because we believe that there is something wrong. that something isn't right, so we suffer. i acknowledge my anger and angry thoughts, i acknowledge my pain and grief; but i don't think they are "wrong". they just are. it's just energy that exists and that every life must endure at one time or another. everyone grieves, everyone laughs, it's all just energy. so, i accept any "bad" feelings and thoughts for what they are, but they aren't "wrong". what she did to me definitely felt wrong in the moment, still does at times now. but now that i'm at a safe distance, it's wiser for me to see that nothing wrong happened, grief/pain/betrayal/anger/hate? yes. but was it wrong? no. it just is. i'll be just fine.

i speak openly about manipulation, betrayal and have no problem letting my anger get its say Smiling (click to insert in post) however i always try to keep things in perspective also. the above things have helped me on my healing journey hopefully someone gets something out of it too.
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Ironmanrises
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« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2013, 11:12:43 AM »

Goldy,

Recontextualize... . Interesting concept. Well stated.

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nevaeh
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« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2013, 11:21:50 AM »

My three kids are MY re-contextualization (not sure if that's actually a word  ! 

Whenever I start beating myself up about staying with H as long as I have, I stop and think that if I had left when he did X, Y, or Z, then I wouldn't have D15, S12, or S8.  I think that it was meant to be if at least just to bring my amazing kids in to this world.

Moving forward is a different story.  I also tell myself that when we separate/divorce that hopefully the man I was meant to be with all along is waiting out there for me.  I believe that everything happens for a reason.

"When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us."  ~Alexander Graham Bell.

I have this quote taped to my computer screen at work so I can see it every day.  I have to believe that all of this happened for a reason and that has actually led me to the life I was meant to live.  Happiness, I hope, is just around the corner.

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Lao Tzu
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« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2013, 11:26:48 AM »

Dear Whatathing,

    I'm sorry not to have replied sooner to your request for a bit of elaboration.  How people pick their 'enamorata' is complex, to be sure, and I'm no expert.  However, in this context it's my opinion that we "Nons" may often be looking for a connection we feel we never got enough of as very small children.  "Charred" has written some very interesting posts on this, so if you search on his name you may find some good explanation, as I did.  or those of of us for which this is true (and it's way more than the number of us who understand and accept it, I suspect) we are very much looking for a parental connection of a sort.  

    The most interesting question of all you have posed is whether this reflects a bit of narcissism on our part.  I feel very strongly that it does.  In fact, I don't think we ever could have been caught up in this insane whirlpool of a r/s in the first place if we didn't have a fair dose of narcissism.  We love the idealizing pwBPD so intensely when all they are doing is mirroring us.  I think we fall in love with the image in the mirror and not the mirror itself.  Falling in love with your image to the degree that it hurts or even destroys you is precisely the story of Narcissus in mythology.  

    I'm not saying the pwBPD isn't the sick one.  I'm saying we are susceptible as 'hosts' for these people because of our own weaknesses, and narcissism seems a central one.  Anyway, that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

LT  
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beeker

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« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2013, 11:50:18 AM »

I have no doubt I loved my ex. Still do to an extent. It doesnt matter that morals and values were a reflection. I loved her and although she didn't really change but more just dropped the mask I gave her my heart forever. I will never get back together with her for my well being and more importantly for my children's well being but that doesn't mean I can just completely let go of the feelings I have for her. I feel I can move on and learn to love again but there are parts of her that I loved that were real and I guess I can't dismiss her as a whole. I've been no contact other than when it involves the children and it has been much easier than I thought. I don't get reminded of the bad things and I don't have to see/hear her confusion/sadness when the children avoid her. My heart still breaks for her and the future I see her making but I have to let her make her own choices. I have accepted the fact that my girls will all slowly step completely away from her but as much as that hurts I know the worst pain is yet to come when her world falls apart and she comes to me for help. I will have to say no and rejecting her will tear us both apart. Its something I tread but feel I am prepared for thanks to this community.
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tailspin
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« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2013, 11:58:19 AM »

I did love him; I didn't love myself.

Now the tables have turned and I've got nothing but love all around 

tailspin

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whatathing
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« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2013, 07:47:54 PM »

Thank you Lao Tzu, and there's no hurry when it comes to process these complex issues. I think you're right, a bit of narcissism is there. I also think it doesn't have to be all there is to it. In my case, I think I had some of these kind of issues, but also I can identify things that were beyond that.

I'm struggling with how a healthy mature love is like, how it would be for me, and I reach some conclusions: it wouldn't be an anxious love; it wouldn't be a fusional love, i.e., I would appreciate that we would both have our own world's and not need them to be the same; I wouldn't "want" to be her saviour, but would appreciate if she would be able to deal with her wounds, although I could still offer a comfortable shoulder to help, but in a much more secondary role in that matter; I wouldn't "like" so much that she felt everything like I do, because I would be sure of who I am, wouldn't need to be reminded of what I value in the world, and would then appreciate the differences there are in another human being that is not me; I would look much more in her for traits like the ability to be intimate, empathic and reciprocal, than being intense or special; I would prefer us to be on the same level in everything, rather than I being above her in some things, and she above me in others; etc...

The next time I'm sure it will be different, either with her or someone else. That's a positive thing I received from this whole event.
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dontknow2
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« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2013, 07:58:40 PM »

This is a great question and one my ex threw in my face. In his eyes, I was never 'in love' if I wanted him to change and didn't accept him the way he is (when he used these words it was only to manipulate me of course). In the purest form, I agree with him. Yet, I had to do some serious sifting of my feelings to get to the truth.

First, I did have an addiction to him, his attention, passion, (deceptive) loyalty, even rages, etc... In this aspect, I did not love him.

Secondly, I do have an unhealthy need for control and wanted him to meet my own validations/judgments. In addition, I wanted him to prove his love for him through his change... . ugh. In this aspect, I did not love him.

Third, I did have self-worth issues that he fed both positively and negatively. In either case, this was not his job but mine. In this aspect, I did not love him.

At this point, ya'd think the answer is... . "I did not love him" but this is not the case.

Lastly, I realized something beautiful. My child in me loves him unconditionally. It's because I can see his inner child. His child that never came fully grow due to neglect. I see it as clear as I've ever seen anything. It is this light-hearted, silly, and compassionate boy who loves deeply. Deep down, he is more compassionate than anyone I've ever met. I also realized that my attempts to get him in therapy was really not for him to change who he is (unlike he believes) but to bring about his child inside that never had a chance (Knowing I could not be the one to try this - albeit, I attempted for a time). At the same time, I can walk away knowing its his choice to live his life as he wishes but knowing I need to love myself (and our boys). For this, I know I love him and always will... . even though I am trying to remove all ties.
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Phoenix.Rising
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« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2013, 10:46:12 PM »

PheonixRising,

I guess I want to examine this concept more. At the core of love is unselfishness.

Jesus preached an unselfish love. Then you would love- never demanding anything. But all of us here have needs- needs that we feel weren't met by our relationships. Musn't we all bring things to the table, or risk losing our partner? Can we have a relationship without requiring things? If so then we are verging away from Erotic love, and into something more religious.

He did, didn't he?  I am not Jesus.  I am far from that, although I think he was right. And I agree with you that we all have needs.  Demands?  That is where I get in trouble. No one owes me anything.  My point was that, after much self examination, it is more important and healing for me to acknowledge my shortcomings, if you will, rather than focus on the faults of my ex.  It always seems easier to take her apart, but much harder to put the magnifying glass on myself.  I am not looking for perfection in mentioning unselfishness, or love without eroticism.  Rather, I'm saying that I was half of that relationship.  Yes, I believe she has a serious illness, but I have been quite ill as well.  If I can't get to the root of that, I will repeat the same pattern again.

Peace.
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« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2013, 03:38:20 AM »

Yes, I believe she has a serious illness, but I have been quite ill as well.  If I can't get to the root of that, I will repeat the same pattern again.

Thanks croovis for that reminder. Since I recently left a 19 years marriage/legal divorce early/emotional divorce years later with children, I have people saying "move on", "find another" while my instincts keep saying hold. This is time for self-reflection and healing... . not starting a new spin.
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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2013, 03:42:46 AM »

CORRECTION SORRY 

Quote below is from PhoenixRising(NOT CROOVIS):

"Yes, I believe she has a serious illness, but I have been quite ill as well.  If I can't get to the root of that, I will repeat the same pattern again."

Thanks PhoenixRising for that reminder. Since I recently left a 19 years marriage/legal divorce early/emotional divorce years later with a BPD, I have associates saying "move on", "find another" while my instincts keep saying hold. This is time for self-reflection and healing... . not starting a new spin.
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Phoenix.Rising
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« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2013, 09:41:22 AM »

Since I recently left a 19 years marriage/legal divorce early/emotional divorce years later with a BPD, I have associates saying "move on", "find another" while my instincts keep saying hold. This is time for self-reflection and healing... . not starting a new spin.

Wow, that is a long time.  Yes, take time to heal, and be gentle with yourself.   
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Just Stumbling Along

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« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2013, 10:32:24 AM »

Lao Tzu,

I want to respond to what you were saying about becoming involved in these relationships and narcissism on our part.

I believe that no one is a "perfect being".  We each have flaws or traits that we must seek to understand and improve.

That said, I believe that it is normal and healthy to be attracted to someone that is similar to ourself.  The process of meeting and dating some one is a process of getting to know that person; their beliefs, values, etc.

If I highly value certain traits and the other person devalues those same traits; this is going to be a source of constant conflict with that person.  I highly value responsibility and honesty, I will be attracted to someone that is responsible and honest.  I am adamantly opposed to drug use; I will not be attracted to someone that is an advocate of recreational drug use and uses whenever possible.

The problem in getting to know and dating a pwBPD is that they misrepresent values.  They don't have a "real self".  

I can only speak from my own relationship.  She was not a complete mirror image of me, but she was able to take what I valued or would be attracted to and she reflected that back to me.  

She created a character that I would fall in love with.  She portrayed herself to be "this person" but none of it was true, she lies about everything and lies about and denies all the behaviors she engages in to comfort herself.  

I also think that this is part of the reason that it is so hard to detach from a relationship with a pwBPD.  I became so convinced that she was "this person".  I was in a relationship with the character, and that character was probably the closest that I will ever meet that is closest to the person most like me (same values, beliefs, lifestyle, etc).  It is difficult to detach from that "closest to best" relationship that was presented as real, but never existed.  Another part is the cognitive dissonance from having to separate the character that I believed in (but never existed) from the truth.  Realizing that the relationship was all a lie.

To me, this is the difference from previous relationships.  The person that I broke up with was the same person that I fell in love with.  I could look back and see that both had honestly made effort to make the relationship work, and it came apart because of this or because of that.  

I can only speak from my personal experience and from my relationship. I read a lot on this board and the common thread seems to be what is wrong with us as "nons", that we must be horribly damaged from the start to have allowed ourselves to become involved in this relationship.

I don't fully believe this.  I believe it is chance, fate, whatever.  I have many traits; most good, some not so good.  All of my traits were fodder for her to use to deceive and manipulate.  I don't see this as "weakness" on my part, but predatory behavior on her part.

Just my thoughts.
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Lao Tzu
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« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2013, 12:18:08 PM »

Dear JustStumblingAlong,

     Thanks for your thoughtful post.  I certainly don't see "Nons" as the people with the primary disorder here, either.  In fact, one of my most frequently repeated 'lines' on this site came from my training a long time ago: "The patient is the one with the disease."  Just as an infection needs a susceptible host to grow powerful, the pwBPD needs the right environment to work its spell. (This sounds a bit like 'Wild Kingdom', if you're old enough to remember that show  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) )  The reason this is important is that we can take back some of the power we grant them when we realize that we might have been a bit more active in the r/s than just being a victim of circumstance.  If we can change ourselves, we will have more confidence that the pwBPD really doesn't "hold the key to our happiness" as it is phrased in lessons on this site and that we are less likely to be susceptible to other pwBPD we might encounter.  Heck, we might even 'encounter' fewer if we are stronger -- they have an excellent sense of our vulnerabilities, I think.

     Finally, if I may excerpt from your post a little, I think you may almost actually support the conclusion about the inherent narcissism we nons may have (I don't pretend to know you, of course, from a couple of posts, so I'm really just speaking about myself).  In discussing why it's so hard to detach from the false character the pwBPD presents, you say "... . that character was probably the closest that I will ever meet that is closest to the person most like me... . ".  I would suggest there is absolutely no reason the ideal mate would be someone who is most like you. Mates must agree on core principles, but the non-narcissistic person might well conclude that an ideal mate would be different in virtually every other way, as that is the person who could help you grow and develop new appreciation for the world around you.  In fact, spending most of your free time around someone who is 'closest to the person most like me' might be considered to be a bit boring to some.  IMO, the only way we see the closest approximation to us as ideal is if we actually identify ourselves as ideal, and this might be considered narcissism.  Again, please don't take umbrage here; I don't know anything about you and can only speak for myself.

LT

   
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Just Stumbling Along

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« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2013, 12:24:31 AM »

No umbrage here.

I do remember Wild Kingdom.  Poor Jim.  Always thrown into "wrestling the crocodiles" or something while Marlin observes from the armored car.

The extract that you used is poorly written on my part.  What I was trying to say is that the character that she created was the closest to my core values, beliefs, attitudes, life style.  She had, or said she had, other interests and activities.  I don't think that she just reflected me back at me.  She created an illusion that she was the person that complimented me.  She convinced me that her core values, beliefs, attitudes, life style, etc. were similar, but not exactly the same.  She was different from me in some ways, but in ways that worked together.  We "fit".  Later, I realized that of course we "fit".  She specifically created the character to fit.  I don't think that I will ever find a real person that I feel we fit so much.  A real person has real values, beliefs, etc.  They are not custom made to create an effect.

At that time, I felt that I was so fortunate to find someone that we complimented each other so well.  Then we got married and the mask began to slip. 

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Cmjo
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« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2013, 04:56:19 AM »

Love and caring = Pain, intensity, drama, push/pull.

Wrong

I like that. I would add... . nice house cars two kids holidays = family = not necessarily love but bloody hard to get away from unless you realise how important love is and you need some!
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« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2013, 10:31:01 PM »

I know I truly loved my exBPDbf.  I was a single mom for 8 years before getting into the r/s with my ex.  He had dated a friend of mine for 3 years prior- their r/s ended when she chose to explore her lesbian curiosities.  When he approached me 3 months later, I was thrilled.  He is smart, handsome, funny.  Oh man... . And we were in the honeymoon stage for years- he stopped drinking (after I set an ultimatum- my kids dad is alcoholic/antisocial pd/NPD), we rehabbed a house together- lived together for 4 out of the 5 years we were together.  We had wills, medical power of attorney over each other.  Everyone thought we were the perfect couple, including me.  We never spoke of breaking up- the one time we had a conversation close to that was when I felt I had to rent an apartment in the neighboring town to be closer to my kids highschool- they were active and the driving back and forth, along with going to college myself, and running my own business was too much.  The ONE conversation we had focused on how much we loved each other and valued our relationship. This was a matter of a couple weeks before I moved into my new place.  On the day of the move he wanted to make love in the morning.  I wanted to have a quicky before we packed up the truck, after I was done with a client and the carpets.   He picked up the moving van, while I steamed cleaned the carpets in the new place.  When I texted him I was done and on my way home his texts got really weird.  Not making sense.  I got home and all my stuff was boxed up- we was moving tables that still had books on them into the moving truck.  He said that was it, all my stuff had to go.  He kept picking fights, which I resisted, until I asked him why he was being such an ass- and that's when he yelled "that's it!  We're DONE!"  He insulted me- told me my bl*w jobs were over-rated, yet wanted me to sleep with him that night.  I didn't- too freaked out by this person I had not met before.  He dropped my stuff at my new place the next day and starting ___ing a woman who I had considered a friend 4 days later.  THE END.  I never got any closure- I sure wasn't going to ask him why he did what he did.  It didn't matter, I was devastated by both him and her- he has a mental illness and she is mean and greedy.  Never an apology from either of them.  Looking back, I can see the circular arguments.  discord over things that we had already resolved.  Him being upset at me for things his exwife had done.  Am I co-dependant?  Maybe.  I'm kind, caring, volunteer for social organizations, work in the healthcare field.  He sure did walk a fine walk, talk a good game- in the end my heart was shattered.  I was in it to win it.  And I lost it all- my r/s, the house (He wouldn't put me on the title), the girlfriend, my neighborhood and sense of community.  Would I ever go back?  Never, although sometimes I want to knock on the door of the house we built together and ask him why he did it.  I've had to go NC with a huge segment of the community here- the ones that endorse b*llsh*it and bad behaviors, chalking it up to "karma".   Now I'm afraid to meet new people- he painted me black all over the place.  I don't want to meet people that know or are friends with either of them or their close friends. Not that they are together anymore.  He dumped her within 9 months on her 50th birthday.  He hated any holiday or celebration.   I am looking forward to the time the youngest graduates and goes away to school so I can move and start over.  But yes, I loved him very much. 
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Holliday

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« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2013, 11:41:42 AM »

And she was right in each and everything she said: she was a mirror.

Again, to me, this is not where their illness is.

Their illness is about not being able to improve themselves as we can.

Thank you Blaise. I needed this today. Recycle #6 or 7 or maybe 8... it's been a tough month.

We're still arguing about how my pwBPD is unable to show me in his actions that he wants to change, to focus on recovery, to rebuild trust. Truth is - he can't... .You really hit it home with your point that they are simply a mirror. When I reflect back the bad things that he has done which have traumatized me and my self worth... it comes back to me ten fold...

Thank you. Now I have a 'me' to improve on, because I can...
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thinkingthinking
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« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2013, 12:47:57 PM »

I was only 19 when I met my uBPDh.  We have been together 23 years, married 18.  At that point in my life I truly believed that I loved him and that he was the one for me.  Despite all of the problems we had - fights, cheating, his attitude toward me, etc, he meant the world to me.

After we were married and things got much, much worse, and his indiscretions and personality issues became more predominant because I was actually around him all the time, I believe I started falling out of love with him.  Every episode of rage, every affair, every insult... . they all picked away at what love I had for him and now there is really nothing left.  I tried so hard to love him.  I wanted to love him.  I wanted to have a great marriage.  I wanted him to be a great husband.  I would get my hopes up when we would go through a tough few months and he would have an epiphany and things would be better for a while.  I got glimmers that he could be the husband I needed him to be.  But it always went back to the way it was.

If I am 100% honest with myself, I knew even back then that I should have left him... . that he was not right for me.  It's hard to admit that you made an error in judgement and to realize many many years down the road that you should have stopped the train and gotten off when you had the chance.  I wish like crazy I could go back and tell my 19-year old self to let him go and wait for the next one to come along.

Java Mom- sometimes I feel like we share the same story   

Married at 19, I wish I could go back and give myself the self-confidence to walk away from this relationship. But there was something intoxicating about it at the time.  And then with kids, work, and everything else, there was rarely time to think about getting away from it. I am sure that my understanding of love was too immature, and like you, fell OUT of love with every rage, gambling episode, etc.  And while I did continue to grow and mature, he never did.  Although the divorce process was the most difficult thing I've ever gone through, I am so relieved to have the opportunity to grow and move on.  My piece of advice for my kids after all of this is to know and love yourself well before you commit to someone else.
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nevaeh
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« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2013, 02:26:57 PM »

Excerpt
Java Mom- sometimes I feel like we share the same story   

Married at 19, I wish I could go back and give myself the self-confidence to walk away from this relationship. But there was something intoxicating about it at the time.  And then with kids, work, and everything else, there was rarely time to think about getting away from it. I am sure that my understanding of love was too immature, and like you, fell OUT of love with every rage, gambling episode, etc.  And while I did continue to grow and mature, he never did.  Although the divorce process was the most difficult thing I've ever gone through, I am so relieved to have the opportunity to grow and move on.  My piece of advice for my kids after all of this is to know and love yourself well before you commit to someone else.

Thanks TT... .we are in the midst of one of H's "good" phases so it is really hard for me to think about leaving him now.  It doesn't change my feelings for him, really, it just makes it easier to think I can just tolerate staying with him, and not have to deal with the stress of separation and divorce.  I am kind of waiting it out until the next rage.  It makes me feel hopeful that I will get the courage to do this when I read your story.  Thanks for sharing.
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