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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: Did WE ever love them?  (Read 4253 times)
Blaise
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« on: August 26, 2013, 09:25:15 AM »

If I want to be completely honest with me, I have to admit that I never loved my dBPDexgf in the sense of a mature love and total acceptance of who she was.

I loved certain parts of who she was; and the way she looked at me and idealized me felt good; and it was so good to be the one taking care and helping (kind of loving the dependance in which my ex was).

I draw two conclusions from this:

1/ It's so easy and convenient to convince myself that I loved her and she did not love me, to put the blame on her, rather than facing the facts. But is it really honest?

2/ It's easier to detach when you can see your part in the r/s, how you contributed to the failure (but so difficult to admit that I was not perfect). Those here who truly loved their pwBPD must have a even harder time than me, codependent, to detach because they offered true love. I got back what I "deserved".

I am not there yet but the nice thing about all this is that I start realizing that I can validate myself. The voice in me that judges my actions starts to like the new person I am trying to be!
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snappafcw
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2013, 09:33:32 AM »

I think i honestly did love my ex... . Was it healthy... . No. Mature? No. However when i think about her now I want her to be happy even if I'm not in her life ever again I think thats love right there I can't think of anything more selfless. I'm hurting still very bad but she is mentally ill and in anguish. I forgive her and wish she could be happy and with that being said its time to work on me.
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Blaise
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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2013, 09:47:49 AM »

I definitely loved her in my way, i.e. in what I thought (and was taught by my primary relationships) was love.

But I also know that my r/s with my parents was highly toxic, fusional and more about needs than love.

This is why I am not so sure that I -- and I speak only for me -- ever loved my ex. She did not love me either but can you expect more or else than what you can offer?

Difficult questions... .
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Ironmanrises
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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2013, 10:40:45 AM »

I know I loved my exUBPDgf to the best of my ability. I let her come back into my life knowing full well what she has and never abandoned her. Was it in my best interest to do this? No. I am paying the full price for that. I stood my ground in both devaluation phases. I was blown away both times. I love the person. The disorder prevents this. There was no way of getting around it. It's there. My Ironman suit wasn't enough to protect me.
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Holliday

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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2013, 11:07:16 AM »

I loved my dBPDexbf for the man I thought he was... .

Although it's SUPER hard not to dwell on the breakup right this minute because I feel so lonely, I fear the unknown and I'm replaying our last communication / argument in my head... (4 days NC now)

I'm trying to stay focused on: Forgiving him for not being the person I thought he was. That was who I truly loved. My ex and his idealizing behaviours filled out some of that person - but apparently - my mind filled in the blanks...
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Lao Tzu
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2013, 11:11:47 AM »

Dear Blaise,

    This is wonderfully sensitive and deeply objective; I congratulate you on your honesty.  While I agree with you in my case for exactly the same reasons you provided, I will guess that you'll find very few people here who agree in their case.  It feels like love, it's deeply intertwined with sex, and it even touches the love we felt for our mother in many cases (though few may be ready or able to understand that, either); how could it possibly be something other than love?  The tip off might be that we 'fell in love' with our reflections in the mirror that was our pwBPD.  This is the very story of Narcissus, after all, isn't it? Who wants to admit that they might be/ have been more than a little narcissistic?  It's a tough pill to swallow, especially when it's so much easier just to blame the poor 'wackos' who may or may not even have BPD.  

    The ugly truth is that we drove these r/s and we completely control the recycling.  Our pain is, from the very beginning, from the loss of the mirror and thus our reflection.  And, you're exactly correct that we will have a much better chance at detachment when (or if) we begin to understand that it's the reflection of ourselves that we really need to detach from, not the mirror.  Thanks for your excellent insight!

LT
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Learning_curve74
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2013, 11:14:10 AM »

I have no doubts that I loved my BPDex. I cared about her well being and growth on the same level as I cared about my own. I accepted her many flaws. We can all accept our flaws and shortcomings while at the same time wanting to outgrow them, that is not rejection. It's simply accepting it's ok to be where we are now because it is simply the starting point. And while some things are not important to change, other things that violate a core value or the image of the person we are striving to be should be worked on.

The lying and cheating violated one of my core values. Trying to accept that was changing me into a person that I didn't want to be. I was starting to put her well being above my own, not merely on the same level. I was losing myself. As we all know here, that sense of self is very important, and the lack of it is one of the things driving a pwBPD. That is too large a hurdle for love to conquer.
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snappafcw
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2013, 11:17:26 AM »

Lao

Thanks for your post and i somewhat agree it does take two to tango in these relationships. I have a lot of work to still do on myself. But if they were not ill we would not be here. Through all the stories it is quite obvious that how they behave is irrational. We did our part by triggering the issues however its still clear that they are sick.
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Perfidy
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2013, 11:33:05 AM »

I know for certain that I loved her. With greater certainty I know now that it wasn't healthy for me to love her. Loving her was hard. It took huge amounts of strength to let my boundaries be compromised and still love her. Being so close to the illness had a profound effect on me. I became extremely unhappy. The weird part is now that I am alone I am even more unhappy. I should be on cloud nine because I don't have her to deal with anymore. This has been a total mindfu•k for me.

I loved her for who she was. I didn't try to control her or change her. I let her be her. I gave and gave. I took care of her like a child. I knew she was sick and so did she. She was on the extreme end of the spectrum. It takes real love to accept this kind of person.
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Blaise
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 11:35:19 AM »

"understand that it's the reflection of ourselves that we really need to detach from, not the mirror".

To me, that sums it all. We should not long for the reflection from others... . which is also called dependency.

But again, this is not meant to apply to anybody here. I am sure that some here loved their pwBPD beyond the "reflection".

And I am not saying that our pwBPD are not ill. They are ill unfortunately. But I think that for this very aspect, I was (am) ill too.

To me, the illness lies more in their apparent inability to learn learn from past experiences, i.e. that ... . they (we) are loveable.
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snappafcw
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 11:40:40 AM »

Much like perfidy i knew my ex wasnt well and i accepted her for who she was through everything including her cutting and suicidal idealization. At times id beg her to get help telling her if she wanted to i would be more than happy to go with her ect... . I can understand how this wouldn't of helped as she probably just wanted me to listen and thats it. I didn't mean to try and fix her by suggesting therapy I was honestly looking out for her happiness. Maybe a little of it was for me but i can promise it was because it was so hard to see my girl go through so much. In the end during the devalue phase she said the fact i suggest therapy reminds her that she is depressed and pushes her away more... . Probably part excuse and part truth. I stuffed up but I still did my best and loved her all the same... .
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Lao Tzu
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2013, 12:05:36 PM »

Dear Snappa and all,

     Right you are.  The pwBPD is certainly ill, IMHO; it ain't in the DSM for nothing.  It's the "two to tango" part that we don't (and I mean we) like to think about.  We can't help them at all, really.  We can help ourselves, though, if we can accept the truth about what it is/was that we truly love in such an undying way.

LT 
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findingmyselfagain
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2013, 12:46:05 PM »

I've had plenty of time to think about my feelings and my experience, and I've talked with a lot of people who have been in similar situations. My love was an unconditional kind of love. I did love her and accept her even through the ups and downs. There were definitely red flags though. Truthfully, whether or not I like it, I loved the "her" that she was, not the "her" that she is. I personally never ventured far out of the honeymoon phase. It ended very suddenly after our wedding shower. If the relationship progressed, maybe my patience would have been tried to the breaking point. If she would have remained loyal and wanted to work through things I would have at least tried. If my boundaries were stronger, if I hadn't started planning a wedding 3 weeks in, and allowed her toddler to call me "daddy", I don't doubt that it may have ended sooner with less heartache on my part.

So in a nutshell, I didn't love who she really was... . the extremely insecure, push/pull, happy/angry, hot/cold little girl. I loved the girl who I thought wanted a family and wanted a good relationship and was surely loyal. Who would plan a wedding and let you practically adopt their child, if they weren't ready for a commitment? Moving slow has been one of the best lessons I've learned. I wanted to believe in the fairy tale.
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Blaise
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2013, 01:16:54 PM »

At some point we were both hit by reality.

She did not like the real me and I did not like the real her.

She reflected this and I did the same. We did not like each other's image sent by the mirror.

And she was right in each and everything she said: she was a mirror.

Again, to me, this is not where their illness is.

Their illness is about not being able to improve themselves as we can.

We can because we have not been completely damaged and have a little bit of self-esteem on which we can rebuild.

It's much more difficult for them and they keep trying to find the mirror which will always reflect a good image.
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Undone123
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2013, 01:31:19 PM »

Man I   mine more than I have ever loved any lady before... . even with the crazy stuff
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peas
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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2013, 02:47:39 PM »

I had a mad crush on my ex. I remember looking at him from a distance and thinking how in love I was with him. I remember how happy I felt when we drove around town together. No other guy came close to how I felt for him. How badly I wanted to be his girl forever. I still think about the first day we met.

With the exception of the first couple of weeks dating him when I was getting to know him and he seemed normally functioning, I always had my guard up. Not fully up all the time -- I certainly let him run over me plenty of times -- but so much of what he said and did kept me at some distance. 

I thought I had enough strength and conviction for both of us. I accepted his alcoholism. I didn't want to change him. I was committed to waiting for him to change himself when he felt the time was right. I was committed to working through his emotional problems. I didn't know about BPD until after the breakup, so I processed the r/s through the alcohol disease lens. 

Something inside always nagged. I couldn't trust his words, whether they were tender or hurtful. I also started resenting his inaction. So I had a hard time saying the words "I love you" to him without having some doubt or without feeling vulnerable, or worse, feeling insincere. When I said it, I wondered if I meant it. I felt something. But I had a hard time being fully comfortable with feeling deep, unguarded love with him.

I think I was waiting for him to make it okay to fully love him.

He fell out of love with me, or whatever, got tired and left. I would have stuck it out longer. I would have stuck it out through a wedding day and maybe kids. However, my major boundary is cheating. If I had caught him doing that, I would have walked immediately.
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whatathing
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2013, 04:31:22 PM »

Lao Tzu and Blaise, I'm interested in what you are saying. My uBPDexgf had lots of traits that I identified in my mother. And also, I like to find someone like me. I don't think that everythung was mirroring, because we really have great similarities, still, and always will. But I'm wondering: why is it that we seek someone like us? Is that narcissistic? Isn't there also a kind of unconscious atmosphere and language that breaks throuh our hearts because that's what we're familiar with deep down? When does longing for similarities start to be unhealthy, and when does is not? Maybe when similarity is equal to enmeshment? How would it be to love someone not familiar or similar?

Can you develop that issue a little further? Thank you Smiling (click to insert in post)
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nevaeh
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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2013, 05:14:43 PM »

I was only 19 when I met my uBPDh.  We have been together 23 years, married 18.  At that point in my life I truly believed that I loved him and that he was the one for me.  Despite all of the problems we had - fights, cheating, his attitude toward me, etc, he meant the world to me.

I see now, after having lived a long time with this man, that while I thought I loved him with all of my heart, I realize that I never really knew what true love meant.  I grew up in a happy house with wonderful parents who didn't have a perfect relationship but they were normal.  I had an idea of who the love of my life would be and I think I tried subconsciously to fit my H into that box even though he clearly didn't fit.

After we were married and things got much, much worse, and his indiscretions and personality issues became more predominant because I was actually around him all the time, I believe I started falling out of love with him.  Every episode of rage, every affair, every insult... . they all picked away at what love I had for him and now there is really nothing left.  I tried so hard to love him.  I wanted to love him.  I wanted to have a great marriage.  I wanted him to be a great husband.  I would get my hopes up when we would go through a tough few months and he would have an epiphany and things would be better for a while.  I got glimmers that he could be the husband I needed him to be.  But it always went back to the way it was.

Yes, I did love my H with all of my heart at one time.  He was my everything.  He made me happy and he made me feel complete.  Except he really didn't.  I just wanted him to, so that's what I told myself about how he made me feel.  If I am 100% honest with myself, I knew even back then that I should have left him... . that he was not right for me.  It's hard to admit that you made an error in judgement and to realize many many years down the road that you should have stopped the train and gotten off when you had the chance.  I wish like crazy I could go back and tell my 19-year old self to let him go and wait for the next one to come along.
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ScotisGone74
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« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2013, 05:52:37 PM »

I believe that I loved who I Thought that she was... . but Not the Real person hiding behind the mask, the lies, the manipulation.   I loved who she pretended to be for so long, who she tried so desperately at times to be, who she wanted me to think she was,  but Not the other person she turned out to really be.   Thats the Problem here and what I see with alot of posters on here, including myself, we loved that one side of them that they pretended to be, but we CANNOT seperate that from the nasty, hateful person that they were hiding, they are both One and the Same.  And unlike a storybook,  Love does have limits, Love alone, without trust, without honesty, without integrity,   is not going to last no matter how strong it may feel.     
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2013, 06:27:30 PM »

Blaise, your insight is great. I think you are on to something and I would ask others simply to really really think about what you are saying.

We get 'stuck' thinking it is love. That pain, that drama, what it does to us. I think a lot of it are really triggers, triggers of an earlier pain, unresolved, though we didn't know that, or don't yet.

Love and caring = Pain, intensity, drama, push/pull.

Wrong.

It feels real, so it must be real, but if we are to profess that feelings do not equal facts when it comes to our BPDs, then we need to apply that to ourselves as well.

And if it all seems faintly familiar, it is worthwhile wondering why.
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Emelie Emelie
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2013, 07:42:58 PM »

I definitely loved (love actually) him.  He knew he was BPD.  I made a commitment to him and to understanding and handling it the best I could.  There was a lot of good in our rs.  I told him I'm okay with the break up.  That I'm doing well.  That alleviated a lot of his pain and shame and guilt.  But I'm not.  I'm not at all. I miss him so much.  I love him so much.  I don't know if I'll ever get over this.
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peas
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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2013, 07:59:51 PM »

Emelie, you will get over it if you want to.
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Emelie Emelie
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« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2013, 08:03:58 PM »

I do want to.  Can't tell you how much I want to.  I just want my life back.  I just want to feel okay again.  I was so happy before I met him.  Ended a crappy marriage.  Work was going well.  I was feeling full of gratitude.  I just want to get back to that place. 
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peas
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« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2013, 08:16:31 PM »

You will get your life back. It's just a lot of hard work that you have to do after any breakup, let alone a BPD breakup.

I do feel BPD b/u's are a different animal because the dynamic is different. The emotions are so unregulated in both parties. The illusions are strong. The highs and lows are unlike healthy r/s's. Before my BPD ex, I'd never left a r/s where me and the other person were so angry with each other and where we didn't have a "breakup talk" to express ourselves maturely and resolve lingering conflicts.
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Learning_curve74
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« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2013, 08:26:30 PM »

I do want to.  Can't tell you how much I want to.  I just want my life back.  I just want to feel okay again.  I was so happy before I met him.  Ended a crappy marriage.  Work was going well.  I was feeling full of gratitude.  I just want to get back to that place. 

It hurts to love somebody who is not good for you, it hurts so ****ing much. I believe this is why it is so hard for us to get better. It's difficult but not impossible, so Emelie, you'll get back to that place where you were happy! Just take it day to day, minute to minute, or second to second if you have to. This is the only way, there are no shortcuts.  
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Emelie Emelie
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« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2013, 08:41:05 PM »

You're right about that.  I've never felt this way before in my life.  We have had plenty of "break up talks".  Although there were a lot of things I didn't say.  Such as I feel so f'ing betrayed.  I invested so much time and energy learning about and dealing with his BPD that I forgot myself.  And that it was always all about him and how he was feeling.  I remember when I read the first book about it.  He said, so what do you think?  I said it definitely helps me to understand you.  But there are things that scare me.  I did some research on line and the first thing I came across was an article about being in these relationships called "Trail of Tears".  (Or something like that.)  He actually got pissed.  He said so it's all about you.  I think he expected that I just accept all his issues because he had this "disorder".  Oh it's good to remember this tonight.  We had a lot of contact last week.  He was being very sweet and caring.  Not in a let's get back together way.  But in a you're important to me and I'll always be here for you way.  But that is even all about him.  He has to feel good about himself and the way he's treating me.  If I communicated any of the hurt I was feeling I was being "$hitty".  I didn't get that at first.  Now I realize it makes him feel $hitty.  Oh thanks Peas.  I guess I just needed another good cry tonight.  I wouldn't have believed I had so many tears in me.  I feel better.  

You are exactly right about the intensity of the emotions and the highs and lows.  There was never a dull moment  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).  
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Phoenix.Rising
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« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2013, 08:43:33 PM »

It's much more difficult for them and they keep trying to find the mirror which will always reflect a good image.

Very sad.  This ties into their lack of identity.  As has been said, Nons are damaged, too, in many ways.  I can admit that I am.  Emotions, like water, seeks its own level.  I am grateful, however, that I do have a sense of self.
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peas
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« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2013, 08:54:52 PM »

Excerpt
He has to feel good about himself and the way he's treating me. If I communicated any of the hurt I was feeling I was being "$hitty". I didn't get that at first. Now I realize it makes him feel $hitty.

I didn't understand that behavior until after b/u. I'm glad you mention it. One time during the r/s, he wanted validation that he was doing a good job; he wanted me to assure him I felt he was making an effort. He seemed sincere when he asked me this. I smiled at him and said yes, but I totally lied. His efforts were so minimal compared to how much I was accommodating him, how much I was putting up with his hurtful behavior.

Then another incident, fresh after the b/u, I texted (he refused to talk on the phone or see me) in honesty that I just didn't want my soul to ache for him anymore, that my heart was hurting. He went ape___ and started with the mean tone. I was like, what is going on? Apparently I hit a nerve and made him feel bad.
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Ironmanrises
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« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2013, 11:11:39 PM »

They only seem to love us at the moment they say it. All momentary. Or in extended periods of it... . which is the idealize phase.

The trigger then occurs.

Those extended periods lessen. This is the devaluation phase. Then they become moments. Then their love stops. Discard.

Starts. And stops. On and off. I dont see it as a mirror which is giving you back a continous image. Everything is momentary. Even something as deep as love, for them.

A horrible realization that i am digesting. And vomiting back up.

Our love for them is real. It doesnt start and stop on a whim. Or easily blown away by a gust of wind.

In both of the devaluation phases with my exUBPDgf... . when i would tell her "i love you"... . She would respond, "i know."... . When it happened in second devaluation phase... . it further highlighted for me that she is mentally ill. And there was nothing i could do to alter that. Everytime i told her "i love you" and she would respond "i know."... . I wanted to die.

An awful mess. All of this.
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HowCouldYou

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« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2013, 02:02:54 AM »

Javamom,

I have been reading on this site for over a year and have not posted for a while but felt compelled to after reading your post. I too was only 19 when I met my BPDW who was a few years older and told me she was available since her husband an her were "separated" and she was filing for divorce due to his many transgressions. I was a willing knight and "rescued" her and her infant daughter, who I adopted a few years later. I also thought I had a normal FOO, in fact I never saw my parents argue, ever! I now know that this was not normal, and over the last year or so I have come to grips with the fact that I did not see or receive real intimacy from my parents. This is what set the stage for my BPD to effectively love bomb me and pull me into the fairy tale that became our live for the next 28 years.

Two years ago I caught her cheating and addicted to cybersex with hundreds of men, while I was at work supporting us. Our children were grown and out of the house and we were looking forward to our time together.

She hovered me back in with incredible mirroring and off the chain sex so I never really had a chance to properly grieve the loss of the fantasy I was apart of. I spent the first year and a half trying to fix her. Then I found out about BPD, got a therapist and started to work on me. She has not done a thing to address her issues, other than stopping the cybersex. The black and white, and the idealization and devaluation, and total lack of empathy for me continues.I found out that the story she told me about her being separated and seeking divorce all of those years ago was not true. She was feeling that, but her first husband had in fact left to find employment elsewhere and she had objected. I also found out that she cheated on him on other occasions when he wasent around too during their short marriage. I always knew that something was off with her and I now can see that her crazy FOO are all cluster B. I believed her when she said her PMS was the problem with her raging, I now know better. I also thought that if I loved her enough, and validated her enough, she would be fixed, and we would live happily ever after.

I no longer look to her for emotional needs and I am starting to see a faint light at the end of this tunnel and I am truly thankful for this site and its membership for that.
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drained1996
Eggshellsbroken
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Harri
hopeandchoices
I Am Redeemed
Imatter33
Jazzy48
jdc
jones54
Jonthan
Katrinalove
Kwamina
l8kgrl
LLgreen
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lovenature
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lucidone
Manifest32f
MariannaR
Meridius
Methuen
mgirl
Minttea
Mommydoc
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narcdaughter2
needPeace
NorseWoman
Notgoneyet
oceanheart
oftentimes
Omega1
once removed
Only Human
otherlife
palynne
PeacefulMom
Pedro
pest947
podsnapG
ProudDad12
pursuingJoy
Radcliff
Raul
Recycle
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WhatJustHappened?
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Wicker Man
WindofChange
worn_out
WTL
zachira
zaqsert

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