I'm new to Leaving

[ts919]

This is my first post on the Leaving board... .

My uBPDw has been given dissolution papers as of two weeks ago; up until last night, she had refused to discuss them with me.  Last night we finally had a "discussion"... . basically me reiterating the point that I was going to divorce her while she cried and begged me not to, then started insulting me, then begging, then making wild claims, then begging... . I'm sure some of you on this board have been through similar if not much worse situations.

Here's my question:  How do you work through the immense guilt?  I mean, watching her last night and refusing to get sucked into the drama, I felt so terrible for her... . and horribly guilty.  I know it's manipulation - she wants me to feel guilty so I will jump back into my caretaker role with her and fix the drama triangle - but it's so hard.  I ended up removing myself from the situation and hanging out with a buddy for a few hours (I had this built in, just in case) and it definitely helped... . but this morning I still feel so guilty. 

Does the guilt eventually go away?

[heartandwhole]

Does the guilt eventually go away?

It does, but it takes a commitment to ourselves and our well being.  It's really understandable to feel guilty, I think almost every one of us here has been down that road. It's so often a part of the dynamic of these kinds of relationships.

The first step in the detachment process is to feel what comes up as you contemplate this separation, and you are doing that.  We're here to support you. 

[Surnia]

I can so relate with you about feeling guilty, ts919!

From my experience it is a very uncomfortable place - and we can learn to deal with it.

What works for me is sort of selftalk:

Did I do something wrong? Mmh, I go my way, isn't this quite egoistic?

If somebody else would do this, do think he is selfish? Umm no, bc I truly believe we are here not only for others.

Interesting point, perhaps you can allow you the same that you would allow others. ... .

Second thing helping me is stay tuned with my feelings and not so much with the other person. If I am fully on reception for the feelings of others, I got more easily trapped in guilt.

[nevaeh]

I am hoping that I can get the courage to leave my uBPDh within the next couple of months.

What you have just described is EXACTLY what I will go through when I finally do get the courage to tell him that I am done.  I have tried to do it before and I didn't have the inner strength to resist the crying and the begging and the promises that he would be better.  I found myself trying to make HIM feel better and then my willpower to follow through was just gone.

It's been 3 years since that weekend (yes, the begging and pleading lasted 2-3 days where he literally clung to me for dear life).  I am ready to move ahead with divorce and I am terrified that this is going to happen again.  In fact, the thought of act of telling my H I want a divorce is actually what has kept me from telling my H I want a divorce!  

If you don't mind my asking... . how did you finally get up the courage to tell her, likely knowing that you would experience this?  Have you been living with her since you gave her dissolution papers?  Had you discussed separation with her before seeing a lawyer or did you meet with the lawyer and get everything lined up first?  

It's a hard thing to reconcile... . knowing that they can't "help" that they have this issue (BPD) which prevents them from seeing that they really had any part in the failure of the relationship.  So, I personally feel like I will have to be willing/mentally able to take all responsibility for the failure of our marriage and be willing to be the ONE who says I don't want to try and make it work.  I know H will tell me that he wants it to work and will make all kinds of promises and will dump a mountain of guilt on me as well as tell me all of the things *I* could have done to save the marriage.  I have to be willing to accept all of the blame (at least in H's eyes)... . but if I do that he will hate me and will make the divorce process more difficult.  If he accepts some blame then maybe the process will be easier (?) but in order for him to accept blame that means I have to talk to him about all of this and I really don't want to do that because if I talk to him about it I am more likely to get sucked in to the drama!  

Does this sound like what you were thinking about prior to breaking things off with your wife?  Again, how in the heck did you work through all of that just to get to the day that you finally told her you were done?

I can't give any thoughts on when/if the guilt goes away, other than to say that if you are like me, a lot of that will go away when you stop having to talk to her and see her every day.  Once the divorce is final and you can cut all ties.  Unless you have kids (which we do... . D15,S12,S8) and you are essentially tied to her in some way for the rest of your life.  But for me, I imagine that to some extent "out of sight, out of mind" will go a long way in minimizing the guilt?

Good luck... . hope things get better for you!

[ts919]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

To javamom:

If you don't mind my asking... . how did you finally get up the courage to tell her, likely knowing that you would experience this?  Have you been living with her since you gave her dissolution papers?  Had you discussed separation with her before seeing a lawyer or did you meet with the lawyer and get everything lined up first? 

I'm not sure where the courage really came from... . I think, after two years of this, I've finally just come to a place of indifference (it's more of a flirtation with indifference I suppose) and about two months ago I just calmly told her I wanted a divorce.  Then it took me two months to actually give her the paperwork (I found that part to be easy when I'm getting screamed at and told what a horrible husband I am - and begged for a divorce.  Lucky for her I had the paperwork ready to go!) but when I did, it opened up a lot.  Trust me, there is tons of recycling going on right now... . my non-existent in-laws are all of a sudden on the scene, trying to play Grandma and Grandpa with my S6 (from a previous marriage) and being super available (not normal for them at all).  I have been living with her since I gave her the papers (we own a house together, one she cannot afford on her own) and I had not seen a lawyer prior to giving her the paperwork.  I have since gone to an attorney since she is refusing to do anything; in fact, she has informed me that she will not cooperate in any way shape or form with any divorce proceedings (I believe this is a "dig my heels in" tactic to scare me... . more than anything it's just annoying) which is fine... . because eventually she'll be legally forced to comply. 

This weekend was rough - she's in super suck up mode right now which makes it very difficult.  Plus my son is back with us for the week and she knows I won't do anything in front of him (i do my best to shield him from everything). 

It's going to be a long road, but it's getting easier and easier every day. 

I know in my heart that the out of sight out of mind will definitely work for me... . I just need to get her out of my sight!

[Lucky Jim]

Hi ts919, It might help to remind yourself that those w/BPD are experts at manipulation, because they've been doing it all their lives in order to get their needs met.  FOG (fear, obligation & guilt) are their tools of the trade!  If you think about it, feelings of guilt are usually a response to another's neediness.  You neither created nor are responsible for those needs, so in reality your feelings are a red flag that there is an unhealthy dynamic in your r/s, which I think you already grasp, on some level.  So let the guilt go and get on with your life!  Thanks, Lucky Jim

[nevaeh]

My H doesn't know how close I am to telling him I want a divorce.  My plan right now is to do it at the end of October or beginning of November, once we get through all of our kids fall sports and my work gets a little less intense and things calm down and there is more time to deal with all of this.  I WANT to do it right now, but I just know that as soon as I pull the trigger I will be causing a huge $hitstorm for myself and my kids and to be honest I am not looking forward to that at all!

Although H doesn't "know" I think he is suspecting things.  He has been a little clingy lately, wanting to hold my hand in the car, initiating sex more, trying to be more helpful and not hiding out in the office every night like he usually does.  It's too much for me and I'm feeling extremely claustrophobic with him around.  It's wrong, but I get really angry when he is in his "good place" because it feels so fake.  He probably thinks it's real but it just doesn't feel genuine.

H has been contemplating purchasing a fairly expensive business venture that he would do "in his spare time".  Well, purchasing this business would mean pulling equity out of our house as well as diving into our healthy savings account (which I have been counting on in my planning).  He wants to do this really bad and I am in the position of wanting to tell him that I don't want to take that financial risk but "unable" to do so because of his likely reaction (rage, that I am not in agreement with his thoughts on why this would be "good for us".  I try not to encourage him on this and I have also given him minimal input so as to not appear that supportive.  I know that he will be very angry that I have taken this dream of his when I tell him I want a divorce.  He will also be very angry that I will get "half" of everything.  He is very protective of "his" money so I have a feeling that working through that component alone will be much more difficult than working through custody issues!  I feel as though I need to move more quickly to make sure he doesn't get too far in his planning because I do NOT want to be tied to him in a business venture! 

I don't know if I can live with H after I tell him.  I think that would be disastrous and the thought of it actually makes me sick.  I would either be dealing with constant raging, the silent treatment (which is actually my preference) or constant clinging and trying to salvage our marriage.  I don't want the kids to have to live through any of those three options so it seems like the only way is for him to leave or for us to leave.  We have a lot of equity in our house and while I might be able to afford our house on my own, I don't want to spend all of my money on a house - I would like to have money to "play" with and enjoy life for a change.  It's not easy to just pack up and leave with 3 kids and I'm not sure how I will convince him that he needs to leave. 

I am making lists of things that need to be done before I tell him, in case he goes ballistic and I have to leave the house.  Documents to copy, taking pictures of everything in the house (furniture, etc), removing items that I don't want him to have (kids' pictures, etc).  I have also started trying to organize and downsize each kid's room so that packing might be a faster process if we get to that point.  I am torn as to whether to see a lawyer before I tell him or not.  Logically I think I need to see a lawyer before I tell him but the "scared" part of me questions whether that would act as a trigger/antagonistic move on my part.  He works this coming weekend so I am hoping to get quite a few things done this weekend. 

One thing that he has done in the past is to "booby-trap" certain items so he will know if I got into it.  After his affair, he started laying his wallet a certain way or organizing the papers a certain way so he would know if I opened it.  3 years ago when he found out I was seeking divorce, he actually asked me if I was thinking about it about a week before I was going to tell him.  I had been copying/scanning documents and I think he had the fire safe rigged so he could tell that I was moving things around.  So I have a fair amount of paranoia that I can't exactly do this stuff and stay under the radar.  He has a large stash of coins in our basement and I need to get an inventory of what is there because it is a significant amount of money that I know he would not hesitate to just take off with.  But I'm concerned that he has the box rigged to know that I have touched it.  All of our bills and financial records are saved on our computer as well and I am concerned that he might have tracking software on the computer and would be able to see that I'm copying files, etc. 

I just want him away from me.  Over the weekend he was very "lovey" and affectionate. I don't want to be intimate with him but he has a way of forcing it on me.  I have learned over the years to not say NO because if I do then he tends to go into a rage telling me that I'm a prude and that it is my fault that he is how he is, because I never give him sex.  A couple of months ago he told me he was "done trying" to make our marriage work.  I told him that it's hard to want to have sex with someone who you don't feel emotionally attached to - to which he responded that I just need to separate the emotions from the sex for the "good of our marriage".  Sad, huh?  So that is precisely what I have done - I tell myself it's just sex, detach myself and get through it.  Ours is a sexually dysfunctional relationship to say the least.  The really sad thing is that he probably believes that we are "closer" after this weekend because I gave him sex twice, which is very atypical.  That thought makes me sick.  I realize I have to get myself out of this situation!  If I could do it today, I would, but there just seem to be so many things to work through/accomplish first, in order to protect my self-interest.

Sorry for the long post, but it kind of explains where I am and why I'm having such a hard time getting the courage to do this. 

When you say you gave her papers but had not seen a lawyer, how does that work? 

Thanks for reading/listening.   

[coffeeaddict]

Ts919,

   Wow, this gives me a preview of what is to come! My exit from my uBPDw is in the planning stages, set for after Xmas. I'm sure I'll have a similar response... . except I expect my w's response to be so dramatic and extreme that I'm planning not to even be there and probably won't talk with her face to face about it. Do you have kids? I do and because of my situation (finances) I'll have to move several states away while providing financial support. I now guilt will be a big factor (those voices asking,"Was this really the only way?).

   If I might ask, what were the factors (internally and externally) that drove you to that final decision?

CoffeeAddict

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Javamom, Like you, I kept putting off the announcement that I was leaving my BPDexW, in part because I knew her reaction would be extreme, but also out of concern for our kids and the impact it would have on them.  I used to view myself as the stabilizing influence in their lives and was extremely reluctant to leave them in the middle of all my Ex's craziness.  The bottom line, though, is that there is no "good time" to end a marriage, and the sooner you get on with your life the better.  No true healing can occur until you make the break, which I'm sure you can appreciate.  So don't wait for the "right" time, just do it as soon as it seems "right" for you. 

Hang in there, Lucky Jim

[nevaeh]

Lucky Jim,

I feel fortunate that I am the mom and I am the stable one for my kids.  I don't know how all of you men with BPD wives navigate all of this when there are kids involved.  My kids "tolerate" their dad but I don't think they will think it's a negative for them to live apart from him.  I worry about how I am going to enforce eventual visitation, because my older two (D16 and S12) really don't like being around him.  H is particularly awful with my S12 - verbally abusive.  I think the hardest part of us separating for the kids will be having to move to a different house but I am financially stable (even by myself) and I think I can find a house that will at least replicate some of what they have now.  Also, there will be so much more financial freedom that we will be able to have more fun so there are some good things that will come out of it for all of us in that regard as well. 

You are right, there is no good time and I have to accept that.  I think I will know when I'm ready and I'll just have to do it then.  I am shooting for beginning of November so we'll see.  I would like to be apart for the holidays... .

Javamom

[ts919]

Javamom:

When you say you gave her papers but had not seen a lawyer, how does that work? 

In my state/county, you can file a dissolusion of marriage w/out an attorney.  Just download the appropriate paperwork from the county website, fill it out, sign it, and submit it to the court.  This only works though if both parties agree to it... . otherwise you have to file for a divorce.  I'm sure you can guess how that is going for me   Looks like I'll actually have to file a divorce here soon. 

As for your current situation - I agree with LuckyJim - there really is no "right" time to end a marriage (at least this is what I'm finding out).  Just do what feels right in your gut... . and know that regardless, it won't be easy.  It sounds like your H is verbally abusive, especially towards your son - my uBPDw has been the same with me and my S6 (only on rare occasions towards him)... . isn't it crazy that we even put up with that?  I've beat myself up so many times for tolerating that sort of behavior... . ugh.

Coffeeaddict:

    If I might ask, what were the factors (internally and externally) that drove you to that final decision?

Honestly, I think it was more of a "straw that broke the camel's back" sort of situation... . if that makes any sense?  This past 4th of July I had decided to invite a really good friend and his wife over for the holiday and my wife just flipped out about it... . I mean really flipped.  I just calmly walked up and let her know that I wanted a divorce.  I'm not sure what it was, but I just know that I've had enough.  I'm tired of being the bad guy.

[desperatehubby]

Hi Ts919

I am in the same situation - have just ended my marriage after 7 years to BPDw... . 11 years together in total.

Similarily to you I am finding the guilt horrendous when she cries... . and as the house is emptying of her belongings I'm getting down.

But I know I need to do this for the good of the rest of my life and my health.

One day at a time...

desperatehubby

[nevaeh]

Honestly, I think it was more of a "straw that broke the camel's back" sort of situation... . if that makes any sense?  This past 4th of July I had decided to invite a really good friend and his wife over for the holiday and my wife just flipped out about it... . I mean really flipped.  I just calmly walked up and let her know that I wanted a divorce.  I'm not sure what it was, but I just know that I've had enough.  I'm tired of being the bad guy.

Interesting... . the last big blow up we had was when my extended family (my elderly grandparents) stayed at our house for 3 nights in a row at the end of June.  My cousin had stayed overnight the weekend prior.  H always gets irritated if relatives are in the area and don't end up staying with us (we have plenty of room and great setup for guests) - he is borderline insistent that they stay with us, even though they have already made other arrangements.  In that situation they have always kept their plans but H seems really insulted that they didn't "want" to stay with us. 

Anyway, last time family was here, H was an a$$ all weekend.  We have a big house so naturally family get-togethers work best at our house.  He wants people to come but once they are there he acts all put-out and acts like they have completely inconvenienced his life.  When my grandparents were here he had one of his "no-sex" meltdowns the second night they were at our house.  He tried to initiate, I denied him (because I was exhausted from getting house ready for company, cooking, etc.), and then he left the bedroom in a huff, spending the next 2 hours pouting in the living room while my grandparents were sleeping downstairs.  Then the following night is when he tried to initiate again but I was too pissed at his behavior over the weekend that I didn't WANT to have sex so his pouting/anger at lack of sex boiled over and he went to sleep in the guest room which is when we had the 3-hour conversation about all of the things that I do wrong and that he is done trying to make our marriage work.   

I don't know what it is about having company that puts him over the edge, but every single time we have company he does this!  He usually puts on a good gameface, but once everyone leaves he rages on me!  It has gotten so old.  On July 4th his brother and SIL came to spend the day with us and he was acting like Mr. Perfect Husband/Dad.  I wanted to puke.  Seriously how is it possible to turn things off and on like that?  It is exhausting to me!

Holidays are a tough time at our house... . which is why I commented that I want to be separated by the holidays this year.   

[ts919]

Oh, the holidays... .

I was just thinking about this just today; over the past 2 years, every single holiday has been stressful (with the exception of V-day... . weird)... . I can't wait to just go through a holiday again with just my S6 and myself! 

[desperatehubby]

The holidays... . ditto

Every single one since we were married was full of stress and tantrums... .

Think this will be different as I'll be on my own, but around family...

May even go for an adventure somewhere... .

desperatehubby

[coffeeaddict]

ts919 and all,

     "Straw that broke the camels back?" Oh yes. For me, as dumb as this sounds, was a cell phone call when I was at Walmart. I was having trouble with my phone speaker and can only use it I use a hands free Bluetooth... . which I left at home on accident. Well, my uBPDw called, trying to remind me to buy something that was already on my list. She knows I've been having trouble with my phone and I tried to explain to her that I couldn't hear her. She could hear me, but I could not hear her... . nothing but static and a few words here and there (made worse by being inside a busy store). She just kept yelling louder and louder into the phone, and getting madder and madder. I finally had to hang up and tried texting her. She would just call through anyway. I remember on the car ride home, alone with my thoughts thinking, "If we can't even overcome a technical cell phone glitch, without her being uncontrollable, unreasonable and insane, than how on earth are we ever, ever going to overcome the bigger, deeper, broader issues at hand?" I remember thinking... . this is just pointless, isn't it? That was about 2 months ago. Since then, things have gotten worse, with her making many suggestions that I move out, that it's better when I'm not there, etc (I've shared all this on another posts).

        I've just woken up to the fact that I don't want to live like this anymore. I know that at the end, the "straw" is not that big of a deal, but really, when you think about it, isn't that the point? None if it was EVER that big of a deal. We (broadly speaking) are not bad husbands, wives, fathers, mothers. We are not criminals, abusers, a*^^*holes, bad people. We are NOT hard to live with. We are trying our best and yet are not perfect. Sorry if I'm taking up too much space on someone else's post, but it just saddens me that we (I) spent soo much of my life force putting up with abuse, so much abuse, drama, games, arguments over what? What? Just straw. Just pointless straw!

[ts919]

Coffeeaddict - you are soo dead on.  And you made me smile... . because I've gone on that EXACT same rant so many times in the past year.  IT'S JUST A FREAKIN' STRAW! 

My S6 was starting t-ball this past summer and we needed to buy him cleats.  Now, keep in mind, we are talking about a possible $25 purchase, of which his mother will be paying half of (I have to point out that his mother and i get along great and there is NEVER and issue with this sort of thing, I mean NEVER).  So this was going to be a $12.50 expense for us (uBPDw and myself).  I'm real big on making a big deal out of things - I'm a dad for pete's sake!  My boy is starting baseball!  We're going to go get his first pair of cleats!  uBPDw was just furious that we were buying him "new" cleats because it was such a waste of money (keep in mind, the same week she wrote a check, donating $10 to some random kids on our doorstep for their soccer league) and made the biggest deal out of it.  She would NOT just drop it.  She took such a small, simple, extremely normal situation, and turned it into a super stressful situation for me and my son. 

Never again man... . never again.  I'm so tired of this crap.

Coffeeaddict - you are correct, 1,000x over.  I just cannot live like this anymore.  I don't care how much "sucking up" is going on at my house right now - I know, without a doubt, the second I back off, everything will go back to "normal" for a bit... . and then BOOM! she'll explode again over something, anything, whatever.  I'll probably have to get my S6 a toothbrush or something (sarcasm) and it will set her off to no end... . and we'll hear all about what a selfish ass I am, what a horrible husband I am, and how everyone thinks I'm crazy (I'm starting to believe I am now!)