boundaries and mixed emotions in post-r/s friendship

[patientandclear]

Hi all.  Checking in because I could really use your thoughts at this juncture.

As some of you know, I've been involved in a close, though tumultuous, friendship with my uBPDexbf for the past year.  Before that, we had 10 months of NC, my choice, because even though after our breakup he told me he needed to learn to be alone, he immediately seemed to be pursuing a r/s with his exgf, and that was too painful for me to watch.  I needed NC to get my feet under me, accept that our r/s and very brief recycling effort ended because there are triggers everywhere for him, and not be constantly trying to earn his love and be worthy of him choosing me as a romantic partner -- dynamics I recognized in myself and wanted to avoid.

When I felt I'd arrived at that point of acceptance, I got back in touch & offered a genuine friendship.  I meant it.  When I look back at my emails from that time (a year ago), not only to him but also to other friends, I was just adamant about this.

However, our "friendship" immediately assumed many of the dimensions of a romantic partnership, though without any physical r/s.  (In many ways I think this is the ideal long term r/s for him -- he is a childhood sex abuse survivor & I think he finds sex terrifying and he cannot trust that someone isn't getting close to him just to have sexual access to him, so us setting that aside relieves a lot of anxiety.)  It has remained that way for the past year, albeit with a lot of push/pull.  We are very emotionally intimate.  He has gone places with me I think he rarely if ever has gone with previous romantic partners.  In his own way, he has put in a lot of effort to grow and maintain connection even though the closeness clearly, regularly, freaks him out.

On the other hand, he suddenly moved across the country this spring, has subjected me to weeks of silent treatment several times when I've tried to explore the nature of and expectations for our r/s, and so on.  It hasn't been an uninterrupted picture of intimacy.  It's been episodes of increasing intimacy punctuated by periods of intense withdrawal.  Standard BPD rhythm, even with the label of "friendship."

My problem is this.  We're just coming off of a period of a couple of months of increasing closeness.  He met my family for the first time & we both traveled to meet up twice in different places.  It's been pretty wonderful.  One feature of this is that for the past two months, he's been confiding with me often via text about significant (and insignificant) events of his day, like you would with a partner.  I try to say I have no expectations about this, but I'd be lying to say that when it starts happening, I don't get hopeful about the idea that we are growing and learning and coming to trust each other & getting to a point where we might be able to have a real romantic r/s again.  Again, not because this was or is my objective in being friends, but because the closeness is such that your mind finds it inevitable that this would lead to something more.  In normal life, it would.

And that is all tolerable.  I could do it indefinitely -- not in a hurry to get anything resolved, willing to be "in process" with this relationship, and to allow intimacy to take us where it takes us.

But.  He has suddenly decreased the level and closeness of the communication, and for a variety of reasons, my intuition tells me it has to do with him pursuing another woman in his new city.  He seems deeply engaged with whatever is going on there, in the way he is in the early days of a new r/s.

I experienced extreme pain when he got involved with his ex after we split two years ago.  I was full of that awful doubt about "why not me?  what if he comes through for her in a way he wasn't willing to for me?"  That didn't happen, and I am not feeling that same "why not me?" feeling this time -- I realize the attraction of a new person is that she is new, nothing has gone wrong yet, he still thinks she could be The One, and so on.  It's not something that lasts long, at least, not with him, not ever in his 50 year lifetime.

But.  I still am having the hardest time with this, I guess because it feels like the 10th major betrayal in our history -- a betrayal of our actual feelings for one another and our actual actions and closeness, not a betrayal of any explicit promises, which we haven't made to each other.  And I can't quite figure out how to orient myself toward him while he is doing this.  I want to be true to my promises to him.  I didn't have to come back into his life as a friend, and I did.  And for me, and for us, I want to be wise and realize that our project is a long-term one.  We've both drawn boundaries that should get us through this -- we are friends, theoretically, that isn't at odds with what he's doing.

But at some deep level, I feel that it is.  I want him to safeguard our r/s, to view it as the precious thing it is, to recognize that it doesn't come along often and cannot just be replaced.  I still, after all this time, have a hard time processing why he left me.  The stated reason got debunked when we met up to discuss getting back together, and other than "I need to learn to be alone," there was never another reason.  Yet, when we reconnected and it was so great and felt so close, he was adamant that this was "friends only."  Why?  Why does he not want to explore what we could be together?  My hurt about this is making it hard to figure out how to navigate this new situation in which he probably is seeing someone else.

We are still emailing in our normal warm, thoughtful way, but there are no texts and no plans to see each other for months.  I feel suddenly like a buddy, and that was so not the case even two weeks ago -- I was his primary confidante, and very much his "person," if you know what I mean.

I'd really appreciate any guidance about how to pick my way through this next period & maintain my integrity, self respect and all that is good and hopeful about our r/s.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[goldylamont]

patientandclear it sounds like you've done a lot of thinking and growth since going NC and then initiating a friendship with your ex. i can relate in that i kept in a "friendship" with my ex, meaning a text here and there, maybe a visit a couple times a month or so, while we were both dating others. the reason i put quotes around "friendship"? two reasons. one was that i knew truthfully that i wanted to reconcile and be with this person; i was fine being friends as long as we were respectful of one another, but ultimately i was in full awareness that i wanted to be back with this person (because at the time i didn't know what BPD was; didn't understand the full scope of her manipulations). the second reason for the quotes on "friendship" is because that's not really what it was--we were respectful of each other, sure, but basically i had to stuff away all of the pain that she had put me through during our breakup. with any real friendship, i would be able to talk with my friend, tell them how hurt i was and get a heartfelt apology, or at least some respectful dialogue regarding the betrayals that had taken place. instead, the "friendship" that existed meant i had to stuff away my hurt, walking on those eggshells, so that we could be "friends" and not argue.

i love your user name b/c that's kind of the approach i took to reconciling with my ex. i was patient... .and only somewhat clear about my intentions (as i stated, i didn't fully understand who i was dealing with, still doubtful of who she was and who i was for that matter).

what i will say is this. perhaps 10 months or so after our breakup, she'd broken up with her rebound b/f about 2 months previous, was dating someone new, but at least according to her this was nothing serious. over the course of 2 weeks or so, we had really deep conversations about our r/s that should/could have occurred months or years earlier if she weren't so disordered. she even would say some things to take responsibility for things she did wrong in our r/s, which shocked me--not full apologies but at least some recognition and awareness. so, after these convos with her, and seeing that both of us were dating others but not completely committed yet, i decided to put everything on the table to see if we could get back together. i've written in another post about this, and how i do not regret it. i can give you more details about this if you are interested, just let me know--but in short, by putting everything on the table i forced her hand. meaning, i told her how much she meant to me, that i wanted to try things out again, and that i respected whatever decision she made. i had decided for myself, and stated clearly to her, that if she didn't want to reconcile, that this was ok with me, that i appreciated the talks that we had--and most importantly for me--that i did want to continue a friendship with her, however i would need to take time to myself to heal. in this way, after i was able to extinguish all want of a r/s with her then we could actually be friends.

well, patientandclear, what ended up happening is my ex did everything in her power to keep me around. she didn't want me to go so she simply lied and said she wanted to reconcile, although her intentions were to keep me around for emotional support while she pursued other men. and so i'm glad that i was able to see this and further understand that this person only cared about her own needs, regardless of what she was saying.

i recommend you coming to full terms that what you really want is not a friendship, but a lifelong r/s with this person. and if you can't go NC again then the best you could do is put a time frame on things in order to 'get your answer', so to speak. my thoughts are that once you draw these boundaries of exactly what you want and specifically how long you are willing to wait for it, then you will have a solid plan to find out the truth.

most likely i think you will find that having a lifelong r/s with this person will never happen, unless that r/s means that you give everything of yourself to him, while he doles out little niceties here and there to keep you in line, while he shares himself fully with other women. then, when they figure out he's got issues and his r/s becomes problematic, he'll be able to come back to you for an ego boost (and/or sex) and throw you away again for new blood or recycles with other exes--who like you are waiting around for him to change. BPD's, both male and female seem to like to keep a harem; i simply refuse to be a part of it.

[Grey Kitty]

P&C, I've been following your story for a while now, and while anecdotes strung together do not make a rule, it has been one of many pointing me into one specific direction of understanding:

An pwBPD isn't going to go from a r/s to a "normal" friendship. Regardless of whether there are other (new or re-cycled) r/s happening, if your r/s with a pwBPD has the incredible push and pull dynamic, just because you "end" the r/s or take sex out of the r/s, that isn't going to go away. (Assuming the pwBPD doesn't go through treatment successfully)

So this level of intimacy in your r/s followed by pulling back (presumably for a r/s with somebody new, until that blows up) is normal for your pwBPD.

What can you do to accept this cycle and be happy in this r/s with it?

I'd just remind you that when you pick up one end of the stick (the pull / intimacy) you get the other end too (the push / withdrawal / rejection).

In this case, acceptance is recognizing that your uBPDexbf is both, and for the foreseeable future will be both, and finding your way to accept that.

 I wish there was something easier I could say than this.

 GK

[patientandclear]

P&C, I've been following your story for a while now, and while anecdotes strung together do not make a rule, it has been one of many pointing me into one specific direction of understanding:

An pwBPD isn't going to go from a r/s to a "normal" friendship. Regardless of whether there are other (new or re-cycled) r/s happening, if your r/s with a pwBPD has the incredible push and pull dynamic, just because you "end" the r/s or take sex out of the r/s, that isn't going to go away. (Assuming the pwBPD doesn't go through treatment successfully)

So this level of intimacy in your r/s followed by pulling back (presumably for a r/s with somebody new, until that blows up) is normal for your pwBPD.

What can you do to accept this cycle and be happy in this r/s with it?

I'd just remind you that when you pick up one end of the stick (the pull / intimacy) you get the other end too (the push / withdrawal / rejection).

In this case, acceptance is recognizing that your uBPDexbf is both, and for the foreseeable future will be both, and finding your way to accept that.

 I wish there was something easier I could say than this.

 GK

Hey GK.  I concur about the inevitability of push-pull and am relatively OK with that.  It took some work to get there.

What is much harder is the sense of cognitive dissonance between our level of closeness, even if it is episodic, and the fact that we are supposedly just friends and do not have a physical r/s.  At various points, both of us have contributed to rationalizing that.  On my end, I don't trust him to cherish me or not to leave, I think his push-pull cycle would probably be more extreme if sex were introduced, and I think it would hurt me much more.  On his end ... .who knows the reason.  He announced that rule out of the blue after he'd sought me out repeatedly and we had the most wonderful time, and since, he continues to go to extremes to seek me out.  I asked him why once & he went to great lengths to avoid answering.  If I asked again, I don't know that he would know the answer, and if he does, I don't know that that is what he would tell me.  So, I don't ask.

But a large part of me longs for it to be more, and says I've learned enough now to protect myself in the r/s.  :)o I just need to tell that part to shut up & sit down?  Is it just incorrect?  And setting aside what I want, what do I do about the fact that he has drawn this line, despite that the last time we discussed it, he wanted to go through time with me, ours was the most amazing love ever, he'd been so distraught while we were apart that he thought he'd never touch me again, etc.?

BTW in answer to Goldy's second post, I believe he was alone for the entire past year -- first time in his adult life.  I suspect our close "friendship" assisted in maintaining that.  He said he was trying to assemble a self that was not overwhelmed by a relationship.  Which of course was a more than good enough reason for his "friends only" rule -- it becomes harder for me to understand when/if he is actually seeing someone else.

[MaybeSo]

He can pursue other women because you two are just friends, albeit very unusual and close friends. Also, a new woman is non- threatening. They arent that close yet, but the pursuit is likely satisfying. Once he is closer to her, the push pull will happen with her, too. She might quickly tire of that and move along.

He isn't choosing her over you. It's just that 'new' is inherintly superficial; there's no expectations cause it's too new. It's just the fun beginning part of a romance.

You will never be new and superficial ever again.

I can see this pattern going on forever, your own non sexual push-pull relationship with him and his periodic forays into courting new females... .for as long as you are willing to do this.

If you two are not a couple, I guess it's to be expected?

It's odd but do is his disorder, right?

This really comes down to what you want.

[patientandclear]

I guess I am running up against my own unresolved frustration and anger with him.  Why did he make the decision to just move on -- after telling me how sad he was at the demise of our great love affair, and how much he wanted to fix it, after telling me his therapist wanted him to dig in & work on his intimacy issues and figure out how to be alone, he just turned immediately to another woman?  And then, when we were back in touch a year later and he was so enthusiastic, and it was so sweet and good-seeming, and we were in no hurry to go anywhere in particular, why didn't he let that take its course, why did he bring a hatchet down out the blue and declare that we would not be more than friends?

That's one of those unanswerable unilateral statements, right -- if the other person tells you you're friends only, you're friends only.  You don't really get to argue with that.

But.  He then proceeds to go places with me emotionally that he seemingly does not go with girlfriends ... .and we had a wonderful physical relationship when we were together, according to him then and after ... .and we've vastly improved how we deal with each other and have achieved a real appreciation for and understanding of one another's nuances ... .and ... .

Why exactly aren't we going to at least try?

And a part of me is saying even asking that question is crazy, since he's shown no insight into his patterns of panicking at intimacy, and my original requirement for resuming a romantic r/s was that he acquire some insight about that.

I guess I am upset that he does not find it worthwhile to dig in and try with me.  That he has repeatedly chosen to look for "love" elsewhere and give all that excited, fervent attention to other women, while relying on me to be his primary reference point and confidante about all things other than romance (I don't discuss that with him).

I suppose folks will say "you're right, that's what's happening, you have to decide if you want that."  I guess I am wondering ... .is there nothing I can do about this?  Is there nothing I can do that would encourage him to be brave and try to do something he hasn't done before: love someone he knows well and who knows him well?

[123Phoebe]

I guess I am wondering ... .is there nothing I can do about this?  Is there nothing I can do that would encourage him to be brave and try to do something he hasn't done before: love someone he knows well and who knows him well?

I don't know that there's anything you can do to encourage him, P&C.  If he has an untreated disorder and has shown that this is his pattern, this will continue to be his pattern for as long as he goes untreated.

As far as knowing each other well... .  I am a firm believer that we really don't know anybody until we live with them and even then there could be things going on that neither has a clue about.  Nobody really knows what goes on in someone else's head. 

I've thought that I've known exactly what was going on... .  It was my own feelings = facts mode, because I was way off base too many times to count.

Are you getting enough needs met in this relationship?  And could one of the allures be longing for more... .? 

Sometimes I wonder if we're really all that much different than our BPD counterparts... .

It's okay to want more from your guy.  If he doesn't or can't step up to the plate, then what?

[MaybeSo]

You can try to encourage him to love someone he knows well... .you... .

But I can offer my own experience as a cautionary tale.

That's essentially what I've been doing in one way or another... .for ... .oh, 7 years now with my ex.

I think you know my story pretty well.

Here's the last installment.

My guy as you know announced 2 months ago that he had been pursuing and finally slept with another woman.

So we part ways for 2 months. NC, both agreed, for time being.

He showed up last weekend, just out of the blue, all apologetic, wanted to make things right with me, and asked me to marry him. To marry him! He was wanting to go get a ring, like right now! Problem is, he did this before, almost 4 years ago now. I already HAVE an engagement ring from the last go around of this kind.

He also admitted that he started up a relationship with this last "other woman" because she was better connected in the social community than me and has a membership to a very fancy country club. This is him bein honest. But it kind of feels like an abuser who is at least learning to be honest about his abusive behavior... .so, he is honest, but the behavior still pretty much sucks.

Oh... .and my guy did this while in therapy, also, with the expressed focus on him learning to be by himself, too. He seems worse than ever right now.

In the past years when I was frantic to save him, I'd give him books a articles targeted to whatever his healing or growth was at that time. This last weekend, he was using that in trying to get me to be with him, to ensure me that this time he is done hurting me ... .this time is different than all the other times. He was suggesting books we could read together and insisting we should get married.

You know what I felt?

Very sad.

This is just crazy. This man is just crazy. He is acting CRAZY.

So, be careful P&C. I think we often underestimate what it is we are dealing with.

[MaybeSo]

P&c, Every question you ask in your post can be answered with:

"Because he is disordered."

It's possible you are still not really believing it.

[Grey Kitty]

I guess I am running up against my own unresolved frustration and anger with him.

... .

I suppose folks will say "you're right, that's what's happening, you have to decide if you want that."  I guess I am wondering ... .is there nothing I can do about this?  Is there nothing I can do that would encourage him to be brave and try to do something he hasn't done before: love someone he knows well and who knows him well?

You can ask him to step up and do more.

But I don't think there is a way you can ask him which will give him any better capacity to do it than he's showing you right now.

And you know that it isn't what you want. The tough question is whether it is close enough to what you want to be better than no r/s with him at all. As somebody 'round here once told me, being a grown up can be !#@$! HARD some times.

Take good care of yourself P&C.

 GK

[Whatwasthat]

Dear P and C 

I think you've had all the wise advice from the people who've walked similar paths. I don't really have anything very useful to say.

But I just wanted to send a big   and to suggest that when you're in a frame of mind that feels a bit knotted up and hard to work your way out of it's a good idea to do all the things that I know you know are a good idea already!

In other words to deliberately follow a daily programme of doing a variety of activities with a variety of people that will bring you a sense of achievement, pleasure and forwards movement. I personally find restorative yoga helpful - but it probably needs at least a week of doing twenty minutes daily to feel any kind of loosening of the emotional and physical muscles. I'm very bad myself at following daily routines of this kind - but I always notice how much clearer and stronger I feel when I do.

Sending warm   WWT.

[KateCat]

Why did he make the decision to just move on -- after telling me how sad he was at the demise of our great love affair, and how much he wanted to fix it, after telling me his therapist wanted him to dig in & work on his intimacy issues and figure out how to be alone, he just turned immediately to another woman?  And then, when we were back in touch a year later and he was so enthusiastic, and it was so sweet and good-seeming, and we were in no hurry to go anywhere in particular, why didn't he let that take its course, why did he bring a hatchet down out the blue and declare that we would not be more than friends?

P&C, do you ever wonder if the fact that he was a victim of sexual abuse as a child is a partial explanation? Is it possible that he has a continuing (if unconscious?) need to punish romantic partners for their interest in him? Could serial punishment of the same partner(s) be an even more rewarding pattern in some way? Could he get additional gratification in some way for having told you that you were "naïve" and yet seeing that you return again and again?

I can't help but feel that you are a target now of high, high value. MaybeSo's warning to be careful has become pretty critical, hasn't it?   

[MaybeSo]

P&C, do you ever wonder if the fact that he was a victim of sexual abuse as a child is a partial explanation? Is it possible that he has a continuing (if unconscious?) need to punish romantic partners for their interest in him? Could serial punishment of the same partner(s) be an even more rewarding pattern in some way? Could he get additional gratification in some way for having told you that you were "naïve" and yet seeing that you return again and again?

I can't help but feel that you are a target now of high, high value. MaybeSo's warning to be careful has become pretty critical, hasn't it?  

Interesting query. There can be serious issues at play even without the sexual abuse.

My ex as far as I know doesn't even have a history of sexual abuse. My belief, however, is that his mother betrayed him in some deeply humiliating manner (I know her, it happened) at a very young age and that the humiliation/shame dynamics went on for a long time, and in such a way that this man, I know in my heart, is deeply, deeply wounded, very untrusting and even full of rage and fear on some level regarding needing or loving a woman who has the power to hurt him like that again.  There is some mental illness in the family, depression etc., so he was likely not as resilient as perhaps another child may have been to his mother's oddness.  I believe he consciously or unconsciously is driven to have these hurtful push pull relationships with women because he is able to exact revenge, keep himself sealed- off from exposure and vulnerability, feel powerful over that which he fears the most, and to also keep himself invested in a dynamic that re-inacts over and over the same wounding dynamic that proves  his original betrayal happened and will continue to happen unless he protects himself this way.  How much testing of his bad, hurtful, odd behavior  before even the most loving, spiritual woman says "hey, enuff of this buddy, either knock it off or I'm out of here"... .thus providing him with yet more evidence through yet another betrayal to support his distorted belief system. That this hurts us, in some way, is satisfying for him, too. Maybe not in the most obvious way, but he keeps doing it over and over with full knowledge that it's painful for the women he encounters and gets involved with, but he is driven to do it again and again, anyway. It's like an obsession.   These guys test and test and test and test women, and they find really lovely gorgeous sweet women who have big hearts that are a bit broken who think this guys love is special because he is so special, and boy does that work to facilitate this illness of theirs... .how much will we put up with and still love them?... .are they testing us or still raging and testing their mothers or  whoever betrayed them?  It's healthy at some point to say... .here is the line, bud..  Knock it off if you want me in your life.  Step up to the plate if you want me in your life. Or don't.

That is healthy. They need to hear more of this, in my opinion. For everyone's sake.

This is sticky, deep, messed up stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised if my guy never really gets this resolved in a way that makes him available for anything like a normal relationship.

He has already dropped off the radar with me, since asking me to marry him just last weekend.  In a way, it's a blessing. I think the most loving thing he could do for both of us right now is to leave me alone, and I think he knows that on some level.  I wouldn't buy into any of his stuff last weekend,  I was nice to him, but I was just like, "no, I'm not jumping on the crazy train with you.".  Haven't heard from him since, other than a note where he said I have a right to be pissed and I am wise to keep my boundaries.  

I hope these men do work through this eventually,  but I'm not holding my breath.

:'(

Please make sure you take good care of yourself, P&C, and don't underestimate your guy's situation.  You are not going to love him out of this disorder.  

[KateCat]

These guys test and test and test and test women, and they find really lovely gorgeous sweet women who have big hearts that are a bit broken who think this guys love is special because he is so special, and boy does that work to facilitate this illness of their... .how much will we put up with and still love them... .are they testing us or still raging and testing their mothers who betrayed them?  It's healthy at some point to say... .here is the line, bud..  Knock it off if you want me in your life.  Step up to the plate if you want me in your life. Or don't.

That is healthy. They need to hear more of this, in my opinion. For everyone's sake.

Boy, does anyone in the therapeutic community have any idea whether such men would need counselors of a particular gender? As a layperson, I would probably guess they'd choose women therapists and then experience very mixed results. 

[MaybeSo]

Boy, does anyone in the therapeutic community have any idea whether such men would need counselors of a particular gender? As a layperson, I would probably guess they'd choose women therapists and then experience very mixed results.  huh

Yup. all female therapists, all the time.

for a long time, he saw two female therapists at the same time... .Two at time!  That's pretty unusual... .most therapists won't do that... .but he's very charming and persuasive... .ah ha... .boundaries being stretched even with the therapists.  That's how it works!

     

His r/s with his therapist(s) mirrors his r/s with all the other women in his life.

I told him last weekend I wouldn't even think of involving myself with him again unless I had access to his therapist.  His issues are ALL relationship based... .if he's really serious about getting better, he has at some point got to get the relationship into the therapy to some degree. Otherwise, this female counselor is just hearing his sad, sad stories from his one side... .and his whole problem is him seeing things only from his one sad side and eliciting sympathy... .from women. 

He pretty much choked on that suggestion, that I be able to talk with his T.  He was NOT into it.   He has an appt. with her today. 

It will be interesting if he even brings it up with her.

Apparently his goals in therapy is to learn to be alone. I'm sure he will feel ashamed even admitting to her that he pounced on the marriage thing with me this weekend. This is like falling off the wagon for him. He may not even tell her about it.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hey PatientandClear,

I haven't talked to you lately, and I don't have much to say other than I'm thinking about you and your situation.  No easy answers.  Others have already said a lot of what I'm thinking as I'm reading through this thread.

Is there nothing I can do that would encourage him to be brave and try to do something he hasn't done before: love someone he knows well and who knows him well?

This comment, however, really stood out to me.  I personally don't believe there is anything you can do to 'encourage him to love you'.  I don't believe he is capable of showing consistent love.  His illness prevents this, sadly.  And I do not believe that our love is enough to cure BPD.  Maybe love is enough, however, if it is a love of self where the pwBPD learns to first love themselves, but this will only happen with serious, long-term treatment. 

To me, the question has to be more along the lines of, what do I need to do to better love myself?  If you can answer that, the relationship questions, I believe, will answer themselves.  And you may continue in a relationship with him, or you may not.

Much peace to you,

Phoenix

[briefcase]

Here's the image that I have in my mind.  He's standing in the pool, by the stairs, in three feet of water, wearing a life jacket.  You're standing by the rope that seperates the shallow end of the pool from the deep end and telling him it might be fun for him to at least take a few steps closer to you. 

The problem, I think, is not with your message. This part of it seems to be more about him, and what he wants and doesn't.  You've been very patient with him.  He's missing out by not diving in a little deeper with you - we all see it.

But, fundamentally, there isn't much you can do to change him or his mind.  He has to want to go deeper with you - and that may involve some hard and scary work on his part.  Unfortunately, his history is that the more you encourage him to take a deeper plunge, the quicker he heads out of the pool entirely, at least for a while.  Maybe someday he'll venture in deeper with you, but that's up to him.

So, your work may be in the area of radical acceptance.  Can you learn to be content splashing around in the shallow end with him, maybe forever.  Or do you need to dive a little deeper?  That's an important question you need to answer for yourself. 

Just about everyone on this board has had to come to grips with some very real limitations in our relationship.  You've come to grips with a lot of them yourself already.  Is it enough?

[patientandclear]

Wow, you guys.  Once again, I am really humbled by your insights, and caring.  There is so much wisdom here, and a safety line maybe I can follow out of my confusion about what I want, and why.

MaybeSo, thanks very much for sharing the most recent chapter of your story.  Wow. Both that he came to you like that, and that he has fallen off the radar since.  I so respect your clarity in the face of that -- that much as you might want to hear those words, not like that.  Yes, therapy without directly engaging the actual facts about their relationships seems destined to falter.  Like your guy, I believe mine made a commitment to either his therapist or himself to try to be alone, and I admire and want to support that.  It's when he nonetheless gets all infatuated with a new love story and tells himself that this is going to be different that I lose respect for what he's doing.  He's already wrecked one other heart since mine.  Similar to your guy's choice of his most recent fling due to her social status, I am pretty sure mine has now connected with someone in his (relatively) new professional pursuit, so it's a mirroring festival, and she can assist him in becoming his new self.  Like you say, falling off the wagon.

What conclusions does your guy draw about the demise of these other relationships?  :)o they fail because the other women are not you?  Or because no one he's met yet is The One?

I think a piece of this for me is that there is unhealed trauma from the beginning of this r/s and the subsequent betrayals (several distinct episodes of my retreating to what I thought was solid ground with him, only to find it giving way, too).  I still hold on to some idea that if somehow things can turn out well for us, that will undo the hurt and damage of his repeated abandonment of me.  It's a classic betrayal bond fallacy, I know.

I did have a little breakthrough tonight that maybe will help with that.  For the first time I made myself live through the incident that prompted him to break up with me through his eyes, and to remember how wonderful things had been with us in the week or so before.  I saw & accepted how much he must have been hurt, to feel it was the right thing to do to give up something that good.  He was so sad, for months, and called it tragic.  But he wouldn't try to fix it.  That makes the "betrayal" feel less like a betrayal, and more just like a train wreck.

I could do the friends thing complete with push-pull indefinitely, actually, if it were not for the cognitive dissonance, the feeling that someone I am this close to is supposed to be in bed next to me, at least sometimes, and able to say explicitly cherishing words, and to name our r/s as something other than "friends."  And that dissonance is underscored by memories of all of that happening, and how good it was.  The dissonance and the memories cause me to want to do something to rectify this state of affairs, you know?  Letting it be is hard, there's a continuing pressure to make everything line up, and right now, it so does not.

In the case of my guy, he seems to have entirely shut down his memories of our physically intimate past when we were openly in love.  He simply cannot talk about it, can hardly acknowledge it.  He never, ever, makes reference to the fact that we have this past.  I do, sometimes, because it is relevant, sometimes, and he acts like I stung him with a cattle prod.  When he has to respond or be rude, he is super stiff, says the minimum number of words possible, and gets out of the conversation instantly.

KateCat, yes, I think his childhood experience of sexual abuse, extreme emotional deprivation by his parents and physical torture at school from which his parents did not protect him, have created a steel trap in his mind in which no one who gets close can be trusted to take care of his feelings, to allow his feelings, or to respect his boundaries and not use him for their own needs.  Your ideas and MaybeSo's about the endlessly repeating pattern that confirms their expectations and validates their posture which is ultimately alone (ironically given their relationship-seeking) as the only safe stance, are so illuminating.  I just make a default assumption that everyone's internal mechanism is seeking happiness.  But perhaps his is not, at all -- it is seeking confirmation of expectations and self-protection.  Talk about sad.

All of your cautions to take very seriously what this really is, and not engage in wishful thinking, and not to imagine that I can love him out of or through his barriers to staying peacefully beside me ... .thank you for those.  They are very well taken & I will re-read them over and over.  MaybeSo, yes, I think I have not fully accepted that he is disordered.  I want healing & growth to take care of it organically I guess, and keep waiting for that to happen.

I can keep splashing in the shallow water so long as I keep my head straight about this.  I feel like I was about to make a serious error about what I want and would be open to.  MaybeSo, I will remember your answer to  your ex's most recent proposal & try to remember that there aren't shortcuts to them working their way through this, and they very well may not ever.

[123Phoebe]

I can keep splashing in the shallow water so long as I keep my head straight about this.  I feel like I was about to make a serious error about what I want and would be open to.

What is this serious error?  And are you content to splash around in the shallow water?

What does a really nice relationship look like to you?  Not with him, get the focus off of him for a sec.  To you, with anybody?  What are your requirements going into a relationship?  To stay in a relationship?  Sure there will negotiating times etc... .  We all have our absolutes though.  One of (many of) mine is they must love animals.  There are no ifs ands or buts about this.  I can walk away easily if someone doesn't like animals-- friendship, romantic, whatever... . 

Are you looking for a lover, a companion, a friend?  The whole package?  How often would you like to see this person?  Would you like to live with them?  Do you see yourself living alone?  What kind of activities interest you?  Is it important that your SO enjoys the same interests?  How about communication?  Is it important to be able to communicate your desires to your SO?  Do you think you're good at communicating your desires?  And the list goes on... .

P&C, I think I'd try to step away from his deep issues and focus on my own wants, needs and desires... .  And how to go about obtaining them.

When we get super clear ourselves about what we're looking for in this lifetime, it's a lot easier to recognize when someone else fits into our world or not.

Does this man fit into your world, or are you trying to fit into his?   

[MaybeSo]

Why indeed.

I watched the Life of Pi last night.

I was thinking, hey... .being in a life boat with a lion that might eat you is a metaphor for a relationship with a pwBPD!

Of course, in the end, Pi and the lion were actually one and the same.

Hmmm. Uncomfortable.

[patientandclear]

I can keep splashing in the shallow water so long as I keep my head straight about this.  I feel like I was about to make a serious error about what I want and would be open to.

What is this serious error?  And are you content to splash around in the shallow water?

What does a really nice relationship look like to you?  Not with him, get the focus off of him for a sec.  To you, with anybody?  What are your requirements going into a relationship?  To stay in a relationship?  Sure there will negotiating times etc... .  We all have our absolutes though.  One of (many of) mine is they must love animals.  There are no ifs ands or buts about this.  I can walk away easily if someone doesn't like animals-- friendship, romantic, whatever... . 

Are you looking for a lover, a companion, a friend?  The whole package?  How often would you like to see this person?  Would you like to live with them?  Do you see yourself living alone?  What kind of activities interest you?  Is it important that your SO enjoys the same interests?  How about communication?  Is it important to be able to communicate your desires to your SO?  Do you think you're good at communicating your desires?  And the list goes on... .

P&C, I think I'd try to step away from his deep issues and focus on my own wants, needs and desires... .  And how to go about obtaining them.

When we get super clear ourselves about what we're looking for in this lifetime, it's a lot easier to recognize when someone else fits into our world or not.

Does this man fit into your world, or are you trying to fit into his?   

The error was in allowing my longing for things to be different than they are to gather steam.  The correction is the one you all have offered: see this for what it REALLY, really is, at this point, even if that does not require closing off to what it could be if he wended his way down a particular path for a very long time with a lot of commitment.

About what I want ... .see, for me it doesn't really work like that.  I don't have a pre-organized menu that I am seeking to fulfill.  I have a happy family & work life.  Beyond that, I basically believe in seeing where life takes you & being willing to go anywhere that is healthy & good.  He is in my life & he is important.  I need to keep that healthy and good.  If someone else came along who offered other things that would make me happy, I'd be interested.  But I am not going to expend a lot of effort trying to make that come about.  To me it works better to see what comes, understand it, make the best decisions I can, and be open to what else comes.  Does that make sense?

I find that when we try to order up "I'd like a r/s where I see someone 5 days per week and they like college football and are between 5'10" and 6' and they will serenade me with a guitar every other week," that doesn't work.  This guy is in my life now.  He is important to me.  That's the issue I have to wrestle with now.  If someone else is in my life, I will try to make good decisions about that.  Does that make sense?

[KateCat]

This situation doesn't make sense to me because you describe yourself as being wounded, again and again.  :'(

[patientandclear]

Yes, I have found various events with him wounding.  I am trying to get into a posture where it isn't wounding.  I have found just walking away from him isn't less wounding (if that's what the alternative would be).  Trying to organize my thoughts & feelings to accept what must be accepted, stop fighting reality, enjoy what there is to be enjoyed, make room for intimacy if that is a healthy thing to do ... .and greatly appreciating the guidance here on all those questions.

In case it's not explicitly clear, I'm not closed to other relationships.  I've dated or thought about dating several other men since he ended our romantic/sexual r/s.  However, they are not compelling to me in the way he is.  Some of that is healthy attraction & appreciation of what he really brings to my life, and openness to what may come in the future.  Some of it is the impulse to resolve my traumatic loss with him through something he is going to restore to me -- not so healthy.

[KateCat]

I guess what I'm curious about is whether you'd still be "in it" if you found that there were other aspirants to a flexibly-defined position of "his person." (It seems you've already accepted a notion of a series of new, impermanent relationships with women on his part. And you seem to have knowledge of them and their disappointments. And I'm guessing that knowledge comes from him, unless you have a PI on his trail.)

He may have other wounding arrows in reserve. 

[briefcase]

This,

I can keep splashing in the shallow water so long as I keep my head straight about this.  

Fair enough.  Let me ask you this.  Does your friendship with him prevent you from pursuing a deeper romantic relationship with someone else?  You refer to some of his other relationships and absences as "betrayals."  Friends don't betray each other when they date others.   

[Phoenix.Rising]

However, they are not compelling to me in the way he is. 

For me, a relationship with a pwBPD has a compelling factor that is very different from someone who is not disordered.  A big part of me is very drawn to this dynamic, and probably always will be.  I believe my mother has BPD, so go figure.

What is attractive to you about this dynamic, if you don't mind me asking?

[patientandclear]

Briefcase: No, I'm open to exploring a romantic relationship with someone else, though it is not my personal style to spend a lot of time looking for that.  His "betrayals" of me have mostly not involved his seeing other people.  First, I think he spent the last year, since we got back in touch, alone.  My current impression that he is seeing someone in his new city is the first deviation from that.  I am not finding the other woman per se to be a betrayal -- we have no agreement not to see others. It is more that we have been super close, very intimate, and then he stepped that back quite notably at the same time I saw some clues that he is/was seeing someone else.  That withdrawal of intimacy tends to feel like a betrayal, though I have come to understand it as push-pull that he may not be able to avoid.

When he dated his ex right after we'd agreed not to try again as romantic partners because he & his T thought he needed to learn to be alone ... .yes, that felt like a betrayal.  He'd told me we were so unique and special, I took a stance I thought was loving in stepping back & giving him this space, while still remaining in touch ... .and then he starts pursuing the ex-gf, when he had concealed his dating history with her & others from me during our r/s.  That hurt, and felt like a betrayal.  It wasn't consistent with the story he'd told me, based on which I had trusted him in various important ways.

KateCat: No PI involved in identifying the other woman/women!  And no, he didn't tell me. Just clues & my spidey senses, and his tendency in recent weeks to make odd, out of context references to a "friend."  It is as if he is trying to tell me without telling me.  In terms of how I'd deal with him having another "primary person" ... .here is where I try to follow Phoebe's approach of don't ask, don't tell.  I don't need to know what else he's doing as long as what he's doing with me is good, reciprocal, respectful & loving.  So I keep my eyes on my own paper & try to pay attention to that.  I don't think I could do that if we were sexually involved or declaring our love for each other.  Which is why letting my longing for us to resume a sexual/romantic r/s get out of control is a mistake.

Phoenix Rising: I don't find any of this particularly attractive.  I liked it better when it was a strong, healthy r/s -- I thought -- at the beginning. So much better.  However, he is who he is.  I don't think I'm staying because I like the hard parts of this.  I'm staying because I don't get the good parts without the hard parts, I care about him, I meant what I said when I said I loved him, I know him better now and in many ways like him more ... .and he is who he is.  We can't order up all the components of our lives as if from a buffet menu, right?  I got this and have to figure out the best thing to do with what it is.  Unfortunately, all the choices seem to range from hard to harder.

[seeking balance]

Hi P&C,

You know, I have followed your path and I think I finally understand:  plain and simple, you love him and want whatever he is capable of giving, right?

If I understand what you have said to the questions others asked:  It seems the only problem you have is your own hurts - because it sounds like you are accepting he is who he is, right?

If that is the case and I understand correctly - maybe we can help by focusing on healing your core wounds he seems to trigger  rather than his BPD push/pull traits? Since you do love him & accept who he is and what he seems capable of  - maybe the key is learning how to deal with your own emotions rather than focus on the BPD traits... .I dunno, maybe that might be a different approach.

Maybe there are some tools to self-soothe to make his pulling away not hurt so much?  

I think I finally get it - you love him and will take whatever form the relationship is because that is worth it to you.

Peace,

SB

[MaybeSo]

It is more that we have been super close, very intimate, and then he stepped that back quite notably at the same time I saw some clues that he is/was seeing someone else.  That withdrawal of intimacy tends to feel like a betrayal, though I have come to understand it as push-pull that he may not be able to avoid.

Hm. Withdrawal of intimacy. I guess it's only appropriate that he stop being so intimate with you if he's trying to woo another woman at the same time.  I don't think he is going to get much traction with a new r/s if he is carrying on this intensely close and personal, almost couple-like relationship with you, right?  Not really fair.

I think what is bothering me in  my situation right now is this: I'm not seeing what I've been doing with my ex as intimacy anymore. Certainly not in the traditional, healthy sense.  Maybe I'm just feeling burnt-out on the whole thing right now (I am feeling that way)... .but, I've seen so many iterations of what I considered intimacy with him now... .that it's losing it's charm. Ah, I'm not sure if what my ex and I have had is intimacy and closeness... .or just short-lived, basic dating highs and lows, intimacy 'lite' if you will... .basically what you get when you are splashing around in the shallow end of the pool... .all the ups and downs you find in any tumultuous romance that is always on and off but never growing DEEPER.  It's called shallow for a reason, as in lacking depth.

As I grow to understand more and more about what 'intimacy' is meant to be between adults... .This seems to be what most people think of as intimacy;

It's about staying power.

It's about showing-up.

It's about acceptance and dedication.

It's about honesty and integrity.

It's about being there for each other through illnesses, good times, bad times.

It's about being able to express your deepest feelings and needs with on another other.

It's about  being there as each other's biggest support.

It's about supporting growth in one another.

It's about consistency in actions, despite feelings that will always ebb and flow.

It's about being able to make and keep important commitments to one another.

It's about these things, done over a long period of time that grows into what we would call an intimate relationship.

I'm not sure what we have with these men establishes or maintains intimacy.

When I'm with my ex and things are good, what I have with him that I have called intimacy (or at least it's been compelling) is:

Long talks about life and psychology and history and politics and philosophy.

Long talks about him and his stuff and his issues.  HE is probably the biggest subject of conversation now for 7 years.

That constant slight tension of unrequited love, constant craving, something to fixate on, a tortured love affair.

He has a way of being very charming and loving in his style of relating that makes me feel special... .in the moment.

We laugh and b.s. together, and we have a healthy sexual attraction, so you know, sex, and if not having sex, there's chemistry.

We can be goofy and playful together, we can be like kids playing together.

We may travel and explore different places together, we sip wine, we have nice dinners, we 'date',  and that's fun.

We get into deep conversations about his stuff.  This sometimes feels really intimate, but we've been having these discussions about him for 7 years now and they seem not to be really going anywhere... .it seems to stay the same.

I don't think what I have is intimacy. Maybe intimacy 'lite'.  Bottom line, he always leaves, so whatever we 'have' is always going to be interrupted... .and that in itself is antithetical to developing intimacy.  You know?

I think intimacy is a man or woman who is there for each other in a profound, authentic way for a long time.   We have something going on with these men... .but I'm not sure it's intimacy.  

Anyway, I think I'm just becoming bored and disenchanted with the monotony of the pattern. 

[GreenMango]

P&C

Have you told him you want more recently (very clearly)?  And would like another go at trying to have a romantic relationship?