Setting boundaries

[DesertChild]

Still makes me feel horrible... .

I wonder if it's conditioning or something.

So... .uhh... .Is there a way past that, or is it just practice?

[Want2know]

Can you explain a bit more detail behind your feeling - what does feeling horrible mean to you?

Also, is there a recent boundary you had to set/enforce that you can share as an example?

[DesertChild]

So I used to set boundaries with my uBPDm and then she would guilt trip me for having them at all. (Waif episodes, yelling, overrunning them by ignoring, etc). My mom was the type to constantly wear down your boundaries. She never let up the attacks. You'd think they'd be set, and she'd find another way to tear them down in a way that made you doubt yourself. If she didn't get her way, a tantrum would come later. And if that didn't work, she'd needle and prod you until you consented, making major guilt trips along the way.

When I set a boundary, I still feel this nagging guilt which matches what she did when she guilt tripped me. The setting of the boundary, though I know it's healthy makes me doubt that I'm supposed to set it at all. That I should consider the other person more, in an unhealthy codependent way.

I know that intellectually, I should set the boundary, but I still feel guilty and my mind grinds on if I should have said it, if I'm turning into my mom by pushing too much, if I should set the boundary at all or if I should do as my other parent does and just run away.

Conditioning is strong to not set the boundary and I still feel unsure and insecure, while my cognitive brainy side is sure... .it's not lining up. This is true of most of the boundaries I've set. I'm only 2-3 years out setting them more firmly though.

Specific example: (which I've posted before) My grandmother wanted me to go to Thanksgiving, but she's been making back-handed remarks at me. I didn't want to go, es[ecially alone so I called her, left a message that I was going to decline her offer. She made a fuss about it to my Aunt (her Daughter). And I felt horrible.

I've also  failed to make boundaries before because I was too busy caught up in empathy to really understand I should have set a boundary.

For example, I made a turkey dinner for my grandmother (before the other incident) and by her own admission she was rude to me and told my Aunt, who apologized. My grandmother was preoccupied with the death of her sister. It occurred to me that I didn't set the boundary then because I felt bad for my grandmother, even though she made me feel bad because I thought I might feel worse setting the boundary.

Other people have observed similar situations where they were more upset than I was that my boundaries were being crossed. But I still failed to set them.

I get it's conditioning of the worst kind, and to some extent, I still feel like no matter what they'd be run over, but I still need a way past it.

[Want2know]

In looking at our Boundaries Workshop (https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries ), it describes how our boundaries are based upon our values, and that there are two types of values:

Having a healthy relationship takes a great deal of self awareness and knowing:

• which values are independent, core values to be upheld by us and defended (in a constructive way, of course), and

• which values are more open for compromise or replacement based on our blending with and building a relationship with another person (partner, friend, relative).

What do you think is the underlying value of your first example (saying no to your grandmother)?  Also, did you clearly communicate your boundary with her, so that she understands it and then has the choice to cross it or not?

[DesertChild]

Not so much about the value, but the feelings after effects... .I know the intellectual stuff, but I'm not sure how to heal and nurture the emotional part.

www.positivelypositive.com/2012/06/29/how-to-create-healthy-boundaries/

this part of that post:

1. FEAR of rejection and, ultimately, abandonment.

2. FEAR of confrontation.

3. GUILT.

4. We were not taught healthy boundaries.

I have all four of those, but the post doesn't clarify how to manage those feelings and not make the boundary more wishy washy after the fact.

So I know *why* I'm setting the boundary and I know which values I'm holding to, but I have no idea how to handle the emotional backlash. I feel terrible doing it and tend to go into anxiety, doubt myself, etc and want to take the boundary back, which I intellectually know isn't healthy.

Does that make sense? I need management of the emotional sphere, not the intellectual one.

[Want2know]

I see... .some of the confidence of setting and maintaining your boundaries is going to have to come from discipline and practice, knowing that having some meaningful boundaries is healthy.  The other part of it may be related to your self-esteem, and as you said, putting others feelings over your own.

So, what are some things you can do to build your self-esteem?  Have you had the opportunity to focus on this, perhaps with a therapist?  I'm working with one now, which is really helpful. 

[DesertChild]

Seems like lack of self-confidence in my own judgment since I wasn't allowed it as a child?

Self esteem, I do have. Self-confidence I definitely don't. Looks like I protected and rebuilt my self-esteem, but I didn't know to protect and build my confidence. It explains a lot of my behavior in the last few years... .such as underselling myself, etc. I wasn't sure of my own judgment of my own value.

I looked up the difference and it sounds like I lack confidence. I'll try to address it with my therapist.

[Want2know]

What do you see as the difference between self-esteem and self-confidence?

[eeyore]

What do you see as the difference between self-esteem and self-confidence?

Great question. 

Self Esteem - I am worthy or deserving

Self Confident - I look like I am worthy or deserving (may have self esteem may not have self esteem)

Want2know I hope you plan to elaborate.  And I hope DesertChild answers as well. 

[DesertChild]

See I know I can do things, but it gets shaken when in front of other people and then I think I can't do them.

So for example, I knew I could compose music when I was a kid and I would make up songs off the top of my head. I had self-esteem built around it. I thought I was good and I was confident of it. But in front of my mom, it got shaken when she said I never practiced music and I needed perfect pitch to compose songs. It took me over 20 years to find out she was wrong. I built back to self-esteem that I could do it, but I'm not confident in myself and the judgment of others to share said singular song I composed. If I didn't take her word for it, always, she would make it worse. So there were consequences for keeping the boundary.

If I did overcome everything, then she took credit for it. As in she did it and it's her right to share it, etc. Which means that it was an undercutting of both self esteem and confidence.

I'm not confident in my judgment of myself in front of others, but for myself with myself I am.

So I know I am good at creativity. I have self-esteem built around it. But I have insecurity in sharing it.

I know I have to keep the boundary and defend it... .but I feel terrible doing it because I doubt my judgment in front of others. By myself I know and feel I'm right.

If I had neither, then I wouldn't set the boundary in the first place. The problem is the trusting myself in keeping it because I feel judged by others. (which I was in the past, but I know it shouldn't be a blanket thing)

Basic conditioning--and probably increased in scale with any level of stress I can't deal with an anxiety too. 'cause the more those increase, the more I want to take back the boundary.

Makes sense? I'll address with my Therapist. I know my emotional sphere is sometimes under developed since I've been protecting it so long. Emotions need feedback from others in order to mature... .and echoing, which I didn't get as a child.

[eeyore]

it sounds to me like you got feed back from your mum.  However, it seems like it was negative feedback.  Children need positive feedback to be encouraged to learn about themselves and what they like or what they are talented at.  I feel sad for you that you didn't get what you needed.  So the question I would ask is how do you overcome this as a challenge?  Seems like that would give you great confidence and make you feel better.  I can't wait to see if Want2Know responds as this topic interests me a lot.  Thank you for raising the topic. 

[DesertChild]

So far I've faced all the talent stuff on my own. She was persistent in saying I sucked. I am taking acting classes, which she said I'd fail at once I became an adult. (Even though I made 1,000 dollars as a kid in a commercial, she chased me to quit.) That took 2 weeks straight of anxiety to conquer and finally do. (I was a horrible wreck, but I got up and did it).

The other two, dance and music, I still want to find out if I'm good or bad, but since it was at the beginning, when I didn't know better, it's a lot harder to override those emotions. Mostly 'cause they've been internalized longer?

However, boundaries, I don't know how to conquer the anxiety for. Confidence in keeping the boundaries, I found is separate, and I don't know an exercise to overcome that. There isn't a way to "practice" it in real time like say, music, where you know you're wrong and can fix it. My anxiety over boundaries is really high... .so I don't know a method of fixing it. Anyone know exercises and a way to get feedback?

[Want2know]

I've been doing some reading on self-esteem, based upon your thread.  That's always been a tricky area for me, as well.

I remembered this name from prior reading, and come to find he is a key figure for his work regarding self-esteem: Nathaniel Branden.  He has written many books on the subject of self-esteem, and has a few websites, including this one that has an interesting exercise in it that you might want to check out: www.esteemedself.com/exercises/

You mention that your self-esteem is in tact, and that you have poor self-confidence.  I believe that if you read through some of his material, you will see that it's probably the opposite.  Here is his official definition of self-esteem:

“the disposition to experience oneself as competent to cope with the basic challenges of life and as worthy of happiness.”

This seems to be the piece you are looking for... .being able to take the self-confidence in your abilities, thoughts, boundaries and apply them as you are worthy of being heard and respected.

Does that sound about right?

[eeyore]

I have found with the boundaries that I have been able to set that I felt really good about myself afterwards.  I remember I always wanted wood floors.  And both of my parents would say how difficult wood floors are to maintain.  They would push tile because it's easier.  Years went by.  I owned my home and I decided to get wood floors.  Beautiful soft maple.  I absolutely loved it.  It was easier to care for than the tile in my home.  All I can remember was when I went to price it out my dad said let me know what you get because I think wood floors would be nice in my office.  And he actually put bamboo in his office.  I was like what did you do with the negative nellies I used to know.  The boundary was not to let negative nellies keep me from my hearts desires.  When I got my wood floors and didn't have to deal with any ridicule I was that much happier. 

I really think my parents meant well. They wanted me to be practical as a young girl in her first home.  They didn't want it to be too much for me to take care of.  But as the years went by and they knew I loved ballroom dancing I think they could see why wood floors made so much sense for me to have. 

The stop walking on eggshells workbook is where I really started to do practical exercises to build up my boundary abilities.  I started with small boundaries and worked my way up.  The most difficult being with my former bf and my parents.  It ended up helping me in my professional life.  I learned so much about communicating my needs better. 

So that would be my suggestion to you in dealing with your mother.  I gather you are a female desertchild.  Is that correct?  My mom is a non.  However, I have always had difficulty with my mom.  I got so frustrated that I went out and bought a bunch of books on mother daughter relationships.  The  most helpful book was Mother Daughter Duet.  She read it first and called me saying she now understood many of the things I had been saying to her for years.  (Me beating my head against a wall).  She apologized for not understanding my feelings better.   It made me cry.  But ever since then our relationship has flourished.  I also understand her much better and the challenges she faced as a young mother. 

[DesertChild]

I no longer talk to her. NC with her LC with my co-dependent Dad. I'm working with what I was left with, but I don't particularly blame her, I'm just trying to take responsibility for what was left with me. (I don't know if that distinction is clear).

My mom made it abundantly clear that she will not take responsibility and does not want help or healing, even after she lost me and my sibling. I set boundaries with her, even small ones and she runs them over with a tractor, throws tantrums. I say it hurts, and she ignores me. (She might seem to care in the moment, but she finds another way to run it over again.)

So it was better to cut off the relationship. (Medium Chill didn't work... .my therapist tried it with her, but my mom ran my therapist over too... .previous one.)

Which means I need to work on setting boundaries with other people and overcome the anxiety I felt with my Mom by not transferring it to them. I'm hoping my (current) therapist can help with that. Focus more on me unlike the previous therapist. (Something about my mom makes three out of four therapists pay attention to her over me... .it's just weird.)

“the disposition to experience oneself as competent to cope with the basic challenges of life and as worthy of happiness.”

Got that by myself for myself, just not in front of others, where it shakes, wobbles and it used to break. Now I just get anxiety and depression over not taking it back. So maybe, specific kind of confidence. The confidence in front of others.

www.esteemedself.com/what-is-self-esteem/self-esteem-vs-confidence/ from his website says, to enjoy the moment for what it is. (though, personally, I think this is incomplete). See, that's you for you in the moment, but not in front of others.

Confidence I see more as the appearance to others.

Self-worth is the combination of self-esteem and self-confidence. But I might just being too much on semantics.

Self Worth, I know is lacking because I lack self-confidence.

People say live in the moment. But that's imperfect. More it should be understand the past, live in the present to make a better future. Forgive your own mistakes and those of others to move forward. That creates perfect self-esteem. It gives room to understand who you are and how you define yourself and how you wish to change your own definition of how you view yourself. However, it does not create self-confidence or for one to take responsibility for themselves.

[P.F.Change]

What a great thread.

DC, from my perspective, it sounds like the examples you are giving to describe the difference you see in self-esteem vs. self-confidence seem to be performance-based. In other words,  "I am good at... ." rather than "I am good." I definitely think it can build confidence to know and nurture our strengths. I also think a big part of the battle is learning that we are valuable and lovable and worthwhile whether or not we are "good at." Does that make sense?

When I bring that thought back to the discussion about values, I might ask: Do you value YOU, i.e., who you are, your essence, regardless of your abilities? Are you a good person even if someone else is upset with you? Do you value your intrinsic worth as a human being? If so, there may be a boundary peeking out at you from under the FOG about what you will do with other people's feelings. I am eager to hear your thoughts about that.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[eeyore]

I was asking if you could think of any small boundaries you could set with other people.  I think as you start to see your boundaries being respected, it will make you feel better about your ability to set boundaries.  As more and more boundaries are set you will feel like you are worthy and much more healthy.  Is there a boundary issue in your life, aside from your FOO, that you can start working on today?  Try batting it around here with us.  We can then suggest how you can communicate your boundary in an effective way.  You can then work on it in real life.  Just know it's ok if it isn't perfect every time.  It takes time to learn anything new. 

I love to cook.  Sometimes I make a recipe several times before I get it right.  I can't tell you how many/much eggs and oil I have thrown away learning how to make fresh homemade mayonnaise.  I watched videos, read directions, over and over.  And all the while thinking it's so much easier to get the store bought jar out of the fridge, why am I doing this? (And I can hear my Mom in the background of my mind saying what a waste of eggs, oil, time, money, yada, yada... .and you could have just scooped it out of the jar in the fridge.)   I was on a mission to get it.  However, until you actually do it yourself you can't really learn.  I must have tried and failed at least a dozen times over several years.  Eventually I did learn.  Now that I know how it's not hard at all.  On occasion I'm impatient and I still mess it up.  I just throw away the mess, clean my supplies, and start again. 

To answer the WHY... .it's because I WANT to.  Since I'm important to ME, what I WANT is what is important.  It was all the failures that allowed me to figure out how it works for me.  What kind of mixer to use, what kind of oil, how to separate the eggs, what kind of salt, etc.  I learned it was ok to make a big mess because I could clean it up.  And I did something I always wanted to do.   

AND, the even better part of the story is there are some sauces I now make for parties that people ask me to make special for them.  Why?  Because it tastes fabulous and it's the homemade mayo that makes the recipe.  I just LOVE that!

Why am I telling you this?  It's because my boundary was to overcome the negative nellie Mom that was yelling at me in my head. My Mom NEVER let me cook as a kid because it was too much of a mess for her to see. It didn't matter if I cleaned it up or not. She doesn't even remember behaving this way because I'm now a great home cook and it's unfathomable to her.  Somehow MAYO allowed me to get over it.  I try to love myself every day knowing that I'm important to ME. 

[DesertChild]

What a great thread.

DC, from my perspective, it sounds like the examples you are giving to describe the difference you see in self-esteem vs. self-confidence seem to be performance-based. In other words,  "I am good at... ." rather than "I am good." I definitely think it can build confidence to know and nurture our strengths. I also think a big part of the battle is learning that we are valuable and lovable and worthwhile whether or not we are "good at." Does that make sense?

Exactly what I was trying to get at.

Knowing that I'm worthwhile, no matter if I have talent or not. To not have that shake when I'm in front of someone else. To be able to value what I have in that moment.

Usually I'm not big on appearances. I mean I will wear baggy clothes and lounge around because it feels good. But I think I struggle with the abilities in front of other people and feeling like I'm making a good contribution and how to do that. (Not sure that makes sense). I never really got to practice it and since I had my Mom and bullying as a child, I often felt excluded so that I was contributing "wrong" or wasn't "needed." So I'm still unsure how to relate to that. (I've been trying to work on it, but I'm still a shrinking violet.)

When I bring that thought back to the discussion about values, I might ask: Do you value YOU, i.e., who you are, your essence, regardless of your abilities? Are you a good person even if someone else is upset with you? Do you value your intrinsic worth as a human being? If so, there may be a boundary peeking out at you from under the FOG about what you will do with other people's feelings. I am eager to hear your thoughts about that.

Wishing you peace,

PF

By myself, I feel worthy, in front of other people I shrink. Not so much Social Anxiety... .but I'm not sure how to relate. I think I can give an example.

My Aunt is trying the "reunite" thing with my parents occasionally. I've set the boundary, held it firm, and honored that she feels sad about it which is why she's trying to break it, but I'm not sure that I'm holding the boundary correctly since she keeps trying to press it.

I'd like to tell her why I'm holding the boundary, but I'm truly scared that if I do I'll either lose her or encourage my Mom's bad behavior. It's not really her business. I've said straight blank that if she wants to know I can tell her, but I'd prefer not to put her in the middle.

I don't have an internal voice that says, "You are doing that right." Instead I have an internal voice that says, "You're maybe doing it wrong. You're setting it wrong. Why does she keep pressing if you've done it right? You should let the boundary go. You should tell her." A pile of insecurities.

At the same time the more grounded part of myself is saying that it's morally right to hold the boundary. I'd seen feuds before, and my Aunt has a right to her boundaries with the relationships with my parents. It's not her business to know. I have a right to define my relationships with others without other people dictating them for me and they don't need to know why.

The first voice used to win out all the time over the second one and it's really difficult. Because that's the emotional self--but I'd like the emotional self to catch up with the other self and *feel* that it's right as much as *know* it's right. Not in the dictator way, but that assertive way. I'm not sure how to find that with this boundary. It's that first voice that gets me into a heap of trouble in front of others. I *know* I'm not responsible for the emotions of others, but *knowing* and *feeling* are different.

I was kinda highly empathic as a kid anyway. (Before the whole kick in of codependency.) I managed to cover it up, because it left me vulnerable but it's still there occasionally biting at me.

[P.F.Change]

Your boundaries aren't there to change other people. They are there to honor and reflect what you value.

Other people are going to resist your boundaries, especially people who don't like your having them. They may not be able to understand why you need them. You can't change that, and it doesn't mean you are doing it wrong. Boundaries are not going to magically transform others into people who can understand and respect your needs. What they can do is help you make sure YOU are respecting your needs.

What would feel different if you believed your boundaries are valid? 

PF

[eeyore]

interesting... .have you ever considered Dale Carnegie speaking classes?

Also surrounding yourself with friends who you have a deep rather than superficial relationship with also helps. 

[DesertChild]

I think I figured it out... .

It's a fear of setting up the consequence and going through with it that prevents me from setting boundaries correctly. Especially since I was used to an all or nothing situation from my parents.

But my therapist helped me a bit with that by letting me know that the consequences don't have to be stated in an all or nothing fashion. (Which my last therapist kinda did). So smaller consequences for smaller boundaries and larger consequences for larger boundaries. Sounds so logical now, but I really didn't get that. I'm going to try it out. Also that boundaries should have a stated consequence.

Also, warnings... .

And none are "punishments" per se.

[eeyore]

I think I figured it out... .

It's a fear of setting up the consequence and going through with it that prevents me from setting boundaries correctly. Especially since I was used to an all or nothing situation from my parents.

But my therapist helped me a bit with that by letting me know that the consequences don't have to be stated in an all or nothing fashion. (Which my last therapist kinda did). So smaller consequences for smaller boundaries and larger consequences for larger boundaries. Sounds so logical now, but I really didn't get that. I'm going to try it out. Also that boundaries should have a stated consequence.

Also, warnings... .

And none are "punishments" per se.

That's correct. 

[Free One]

I'm reading "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend right now. It uses a lot of Biblical examples to back up their meaning, but if that doesn't bother you, they do a good job of explaining where you might be lacking in boundary skills and how your boundary deficiencies may play out in certain types of r/s. It is showing me exactly what boundary skills I need to work on and has helped me resolve some of my guilt in setting boundaries.

[eeyore]

It uses a lot of Biblical examples to back up their meaning, but if that doesn't bother you, they do a good job of explaining where you might be lacking in boundary skills and how your boundary deficiencies may play out in certain types of r/s.

Would you give an example?  Is setting boundaries a biblical thing?

[Free One]

It uses a lot of Biblical examples to back up their meaning, but if that doesn't bother you, they do a good job of explaining where you might be lacking in boundary skills and how your boundary deficiencies may play out in certain types of r/s.

Would you give an example?  Is setting boundaries a biblical thing?

The book makes a case that setting boundaries is biblical, or can be. It's not something I have the words and knowledge to paraphrase here. It really is a valuable read and seems to be readily available at libraries and bookstores.

For the record, I don't consider myself a Christian, but found this book to be one of the best I have read on this journey.

[eeyore]

For the record, I don't consider myself a Christian, but found this book to be one of the best I have read on this journey.

Just wondering but if not Christian than what do you consider yourself? 

[Free One]

For the record, I don't consider myself a Christian, but found this book to be one of the best I have read on this journey.

Just wondering but if not Christian than what do you consider yourself? 

I consider myself to be spiritual. I believe in the teachings of Jesus, but I also believe in the teachings of Buddha and others. I believe that there is more than one way to "salvation" and that no one religion is the end-all.

[Grey Kitty]

DesertChild, I'm late to this thread, but I'm starting to wonder if you are trying to implement rules or enforce boundaries. Here's a simple example of the difference:

Rule: Do not verbally abuse me.

Boundary: If you verbally abuse me, I will leave the conversation. (Walk out of the room, hang up the phone, etc.)

The really good thing about enforcing boundaries is that you can do it 100% on your own, and in most cases, after you start doing it, it tends to feel really good to take control of your life and your relationships this way.

The bad part about boundaries is that there are many things you simply cannot accomplish with boundaries. You cannot make somebody be nice to you with a boundary. All you can do is make it impossible for them to continue being rude to you.

The really bad part about rules is that the person you are setting the rule on has a choice: They can obey the rule or break the rule, and you have to live with that possibility.

[fromheeltoheal]

Esteem is respect and admiration, so self esteem is respect and admiration for self, self respect and self admiration.  To me that's a first step; if we don't respect and admire ourselves we can't really expect anyone else to.

Self confidence to me is more action-based and may involve other people.  Are we confident in our abilities?  And some of those abilities include interpersonal skills like setting and maintaining healthy boundaries, inspiring respect by respecting ourselves, etc.  And confidence includes an ability to be sure that we can do those things in the presence of others, which takes practice and discipline.