why is he doing this particular new thing?

[patientandclear]

Hi guys.  I'm thinking I'll post soon with more questions about my fundamental direction with the man wBPD in my life (my exbf, now a friend by his terms and, I guess, originally and still, mine).

But for the moment, a new dynamic has popped into our r/s, and it's bugging me, and I'm wondering WTH? and whether it's worth addressing, and if so, how.

He moved to another city this spring.  Since he suddenly broke up with me two years ago, he doesn't seem to want to talk by phone.  When in the same city, he liked to see each other, and we've visited in other cities since his move.  But while we're in our respective homes, it's basically email & text.

Text "conversations" in the past few weeks have been less frequent than they were previously, one of the reasons I surmised he might be dating someone else.  He likes to be checking in & my assumption was, if not me, there is someone else.  I don't know, though.  When I've initiated texting, he is able to respond & continues our stream of conversation till about bedtime.  Doesn't seem like there is anyone else involved or around.

Normally, when we're having a long text exchange, one or the other of us eventually will say goodbye or goodnight.  The other will reciprocate.  I've always had a sense he doesn't like it when I am the one to do that, but I'm not sure that's an issue.

Anyway, in the past few weeks, he's started a new behavior: we're motoring along, having a nice, thoughtful, warm, text convo.  I'll send a message ... .and he just drops off the face of the earth.  No "that's funny!  OK, gotta go to bed/do work/whatever.  Goodnight!"  Just ... .stops.  After hours of sustained texting.

I think he considers such behavior to be rude, and I think if I did it to him & never explained, it would be a Big Deal.  He pays attention to tiny things like whether I answer a small point in one of his emails, which he'll ask about weeks later ("I noticed you never answered about X".  When he's wanting text contact & more than an hour goes by without an answer from me, he's referred to it as "text silence" and thinks I must have been offended by something he did.

So it's not that he's just casual about all this, you know?

This is bugging me quite a bit.  It feels punishing.  Or something.

Any ideas what this is about?  Why it might be happening now?  And is it worth trying to address it?  If so, is this a DEARMAN type request?  He is of course very sensitive to criticism ... .

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[patientandclear]

I should add: so far, I've given no indication that this is bugging me.  I've certainly seen lots of stories on the board about how, when the partner of a pwBPD highlights that something bothers them, that thing becomes a high value way to punish the partner.  And sometimes, when the punishing tactic is ignored (e.g., silent treatment, and this is sort of like a mini-version of silent treatment I guess), the tactic just ebbs and ends.

On the other hand, I am persuaded that if there is any point in continuing with this r/s or friendship, it would be because I am not eggshell walking, I do share my feelings, I do ask for what I need.

And also, my guy wBPD seems to lose respect for me when I rationalize behavior of his he knows sucks.  Which connects with what I said above about how it's not like he actually thinks this sort of thing is OK in general.  I think he knows it's rude.  If I take it, what does that say?

Yet, what is driving this sudden need to test or punish me in this way?

[eeyore]

i suspect he doesn't think about it.  If he is dating someone and they happen to be around he might not be able to get in another text as a new girlfriend might not appreciate an old girlfriend being around sharing a day long's worth of texts. 

So he doesn't really care.  When he's lonely it's great to have you as a friend.  Otherwise he discards you.  I actually have a girlfriend who is like that.  During the week she talks and calls.  Her bf comes into town and you call or text her and she never replies.  She's too busy catering to him. 

[123Phoebe]

In a way, it sounds like his text behavior is similar to what he's like in the flesh... .  Gets super close and then cuts things off.  A pattern.  I wouldn't give it much mental energy.  I'd put that energy into how not to take what he does personally.

Since it bothers you though, say something (better to do it like the next day, a sooner rather than later thing).  At least you will have gotten it off your chest.  "I realize you're not glued to your phone and have things going on.  I was enjoying our conversation and it bothers me that it was cut short with no explanation.  I've probably done it too, a time or 2.  Think we can come up with a way to nicely say 'talk to you later' or something similar?"

P&C, the flip-side of this is that you can end a conversation, too.  Just because he's in pull-mode doesn't mean that you have to be pulled in for hours of texting until he decides it's enough.  I realize it's an enjoyable connection, it's just one of those things though... .  It's texting, welcome to the world of!

Also, not to be nit-picky... .  The subject of this thread "why is he doing this particular new thing?" is putting the focus on him rather than yourself.  No one can answer for him.

What feelings come up for you when this happens?  Yes, it bugs you and bothers you.  What is going on inside of you that it's bothersome to such an extent? 

[patientandclear]

Eeyore -- I don't think it's that he's with or communicating with another woman.  He's keeping these conversations going all evening, sharing information & inviting more.  If he were with someone else, he'd subtly cue me that the conversation is over ("have a good time at the fair!" rather than pushing it forward.  Also, these end late at night, and he is incredibly averse to having someone at his place ... .when he is pursuing someone, weirdly, it is more likely to involve the early evening than late night.  These conversations end suddenly late at night.

Phoebe -- this is very new behavior.  It feels like yet another way to abandon me, I suppose.  We're going along, everything is good, then suddenly, he's gone, and in a way that breaks our established way of handling things.  Maybe other people text in this way, but we don't.  Didn't. I agree with you, it is like the larger r/s -- get close, then go away suddenly.

I do end conversations with him, of course, and when I do, I handle it like he used to -- "ok, going to bed -- enjoy your movie!"  In other words I note that I am going and will be gone.  This was always his way, too.  We text until one of us needs or wants to stop, that's completely fine, it's that he does it in a way that makes me feel rotten.  I hear you that I can work on not taking it personally, like everything else.

Raising it -- is that not likely to amplify it into me trying to control him, something that needs to be resisted?  I have to say I get very confused about different strands of advice on stuff like this, which is not a boundary or deal-breaker, but hurts.  "If it bothers you, say something," don't give up your voice in this r/s, resonates with me.  I want that to be the right course!  But "ignore the behavior completely & perhaps it will stop" seems also to be fairly effective.  People saying they don't like the silent treatment, even using the tools to say so, seem to still get the silent treatment, right?

On the other hand, if I ignore it, am I not letting it get established as our new normal?

I picked this relatively minor topic to look at because it's an example of how nothing I think I am sure of with this guy stays constant; and because it's a place to practice how I want to handle aspects of our r/s that are hurtful.

[MaybeSo]

Perhaps he fell asleep.

[myself]

Sounds like a control issue.

Wants to keep you hooked.

Knows you will (probably) always be there.

Different rules for each of you.

For him, a temporary connection.

For you, an ongoing problem.

[Iolair]

Also, not to be nit-picky... .  The subject of this thread "why is he doing this particular new thing?" is putting the focus on him rather than yourself.  No one can answer for him.

What feelings come up for you when this happens?  Yes, it bugs you and bothers you.  What is going on inside of you that it's bothersome to such an extent? 

I don't think that's nit-picky, Phoebe. I think you've made a great point here. Trying to interpret his intentions won't really help. In the end, P&C, how he makes you feel is what you have to address. 

[briefcase]

If it bothers you, then you need to bring it up. 

Texting tends to open whole new frontiers of communication issues in these relationships.  The tone can be difficult to "hear."  It's easy to cut to the chase in text and not use the S or the E in SET or validate, etc. And there are no non-verbal cues or eye contact.  I realize that you're working with what he's giving, but texting conversations are tough.      

[seeking balance]

one of the reasons I surmised he might be dating someone else.  He likes to be checking in & my assumption was, if not me, there is someone else.  I don't know, though.  When I've initiated texting, he is able to respond & continues our stream of conversation till about bedtime.  Doesn't seem like there is anyone else involved or around.

Normally, when we're having a long text exchange, one or the other of us eventually will say goodbye or goodnight.  The other will reciprocate.  I've always had a sense he doesn't like it when I am the one to do that, but I'm not sure that's an issue.

Anyway, in the past few weeks, he's started a new behavior: we're motoring along, having a nice, thoughtful, warm, text convo.  I'll send a message ... .and he just drops off the face of the earth.  No "that's funny!  OK, gotta go to bed/do work/whatever.  Goodnight!"  Just ... .stops.  After hours of sustained texting.

I think he considers such behavior to be rude, and I think if I did it to him & never explained, it would be a Big Deal.  He pays attention to tiny things like whether I answer a small point in one of his emails, which he'll ask about weeks later ("I noticed you never answered about X".  When he's wanting text contact & more than an hour goes by without an answer from me, he's referred to it as "text silence" and thinks I must have been offended by something he did.

A lot of assumptions on your part about him as I bolded in your post. 

Why does this behavior feel punishing to you?

[patientandclear]

To MaybeSo's thought that maybe he just fell asleep , one time, yes, possibly, but this is a new & distinct pattern.  And that is really the answer to SB's question about why it feels punishing to me.  All this time, he had never done this.  He seems acutely aware of how he leaves text conversations & certainly of how I leave them.  This is a guy who, when we are exchanging daily emails, texts to tell me he is not going to get to email today, just so I know he is not blowing me off.  That is, when he is not blowing me off

It feels punishing because it goes counter his own code of how he treats me when he texts.  The code is suddenly changing and my sense is (there it is again!) that he is aware that this is rude and abrupt and abandoning.  At least, between us, as we have evolved our pattern of communication, it's at the extreme end of that continuum.  It's like texting silent treatment.

Someone IRL suggested, though, that maybe it's the opposite of how I experience it.  Maybe he doesn't like saying goodbye when we've been close.  If you leave it open, it's open ... .and he doesn't have to worry about how or whether I will bring it to a close.

And of course, that's the problem with any form of silent treatment -- it could be about lots of things, it could be punishing, it could be dysregulation.  Asking that it not happen doesn't seem to be very successful.  Depersonalizing & radical acceptance & no expectations seem to be the recipe for less hurt and stress.

Doesn't that cut against saying something, even though, yes, it bothers me?  When people are subjected to silent treatment, saying "this bothers me" isn't usually the recommended course, right?

[123Phoebe]

P&C, are you afraid of conflict?  I am, or at least I was, now it's mildly uncomfortable, but sometimes necessary.  It's what the tools are for

We cannot have an honest to goodness relationship with someone we're not being honest with, ya know?

I just had an issue that needed to be addressed yesterday.  I addressed it as honestly and as respectfully as I could (it's concerning his mother, so it's personal).  He was fine with it! He behaved a little differently today than he usually does through text, but came over for a couple hours this afternoon, not to further discuss anything (that's been talked about already and cleared up), but to relax after work.  I could've gotten all up in a knot about it, any of it, if I was expecting more or worrying or hoping for something different or afraid to speak to the guy.  I could have made it a whole lot worse in so many ways.  I felt something needed to be said.  He appreciates my honesty.  His actions match his words.  My actions match my words.  And la dee da we go on with our lives... .

Give him a chance to get to know the real you.  Speak up!

[myself]

A new pattern that is causing you distress should be faced and understood as best you can. BPD or not, if people in your life don't extend the basic common courtesies, you have every right to speak up about it. It's understood you do not want to drive him even further away. Going along with being disrespected isn't going to help this pattern go away, though. You say maybe if you don't expect so much, you won't hurt so much. Alright, I'm with you, I've been working on that too. Now I find I'm expecting my pain and doubts to ease, and more, and have put expectations on my expectations. All wrapped up around, and this is my own doing, someone who can't even consistently reciprocate the common basic courtesies, let alone the more personal intimate ones we could be sharing as lovers partners and friends. That's fine, they don't have to. I'm becoming more accepting of that.

P&C, I spoke up and stood my ground, I offered everything I had, I said I needed someone who is really going to be here, that I love her for who she is and I feel it in my heart to grow with her, and she took that as I was being 'bad' with her and she left. I also said if she really wasn't going to really be here, to communicate and be together, then we should go our own ways, I couldn't live with that any more. She wouldn't answer any questions, wouldn't look me in the eye, wouldn't discuss a single thing. She left. Silent treatment since then. I waited for her to reach out but she didn't. I tried contacting her but she didn't respond. I can't keep chasing this, you know? There is so much good there, but why do we keep trying to get these things to work with these people when we see it's never going to work? You've tried, I've tried, so many of us here have just emptied ourselves out over this stuff. Even down to all the tiny little things that shouldn't matter but they do. They've piled up so high we can't even see ourselves half the time, and the times we can we kind of shrink away, wishing things were different. I can't chase mine any more. Can you? How far does it go?

I mostly wanted to say I believe we should all speak up for ourselves, and if that trims away those who can not stay, that's their choice. BPD or not, these people have a chance with us. If they don't take it why should we keep having to be hurt by that?

[LetItBe]

Exactly what myself said. 

Yet, what is driving this sudden need to test or punish me in this way?

My guess is BPD, controlling the closeness, the usual. 

And is it worth trying to address it?

Yes, because it's bothering you, and you are worth addressing what's bothering you.  No r/s is worth losing your voice, and thus, yourself.

I like what Phoebe said, too:

Give him a chance to get to know the real you.  Speak up!

[patientandclear]

OK guys, I hear you loud and clear.  I should say something.

The thing I really have an urge to say is to forward a beautiful email exchange between us from two years ago when we were first together, and everything was so hopeful and happy and confident, and ask what happened to us.  I am suddenly feeling almost desperate for a real conversation with him about that.  But realistically folks, that isn't in the cards, right?  That's not how such an overture is likely to be met?

Phoebe asks whether I'm afraid of conflict, and in my life, the answer is no, not at all; but in this r/s, I am afraid of more pain.  With the texting situation, returning to that, I am also afraid of more pain.  Even though I am currently in pain, so my strategy isn't working very well.

Last night, he did it more spectacularly than before.  He opened a text exchange, we went back & forth a bit in the early evening, I asked him a question at about 8 p.m.  No answer at all.  This is just unprecedented for us.  I can see how what I wrote might have triggered him a bit (we were writing about a local political figure I work with who's behaving badly; he asked if he might have a personality disorder or something (!), and I replied saying "he is really insecure and needs constant affirmation.  I am done with him."  That cuts against his general view of me, which is that I am naive & don't draw the line with people when I should, but plays into his fears with me, that I did or would abandon him because of behavior his feelings causes him to engage in.  If this was what happened, does it matter in terms of how I try to talk to him about this?

And how should I try to talk to him?  The find your own voice approach seems hard to reconcile with DEARMAN & DEARMAN seems like it is going to come across as overkill on this issue of "where did you go?"  Yet, several people have pointed out to me that the tools really do work.  Not using them in the past & raising dissatisfaction with his actions in the past has triggered all kinds of feelings for him about how I am trying to control or capture him, etc.  Thoughts on how to go about this?

[eeyore]

OK guys, I hear you loud and clear.  I should say something.

The thing I really have an urge to say is to forward a beautiful email exchange between us from two years ago when we were first together, and everything was so hopeful and happy and confident, and ask what happened to us.

Ask your self why you feel this way?  Will you answer honestly here? 

He is establishing a new pattern and you have already started to show him you are allowing it by having not said anything. (Easy for me to say not so easy to live by my own words. So don't beat yourself up over it. )

Can you start writing your own DEARMAN here?  Then let others make suggestions.  Remember, You have to do the hard work for yourself nobody can do it for you. 

[patientandclear]

OK guys, I hear you loud and clear.  I should say something.

The thing I really have an urge to say is to forward a beautiful email exchange between us from two years ago when we were first together, and everything was so hopeful and happy and confident, and ask what happened to us.

Ask your self why you feel this way?  Will you answer honestly here?

Well ... .because I am not at peace with what happened, I have a terrible feeling that it should have gone differently, and we are both so incredibly defended that we have almost never even touched on how much we wanted and miss those original feelings we had for each other.  Sometimes I have this wild hope that we could crack through all of that if one of us would just be honest about how much we wanted this, despite our hurt and fear of loss.

I've stayed away from that kind of communication after the early days of protesting his breakup decision, out of fear of hurt.  I've felt like I need him to come to me, that I cannot risk opening myself up like that again.  But deep down I have this feeling that he cannot do that, he cannot risk that, and I would have to be the one who stood up for us and fought for this.

I worry though that this is connected to my PTSD impulse to try to go back in time and undo what happened and thus avoid the hurt.

I am also realizing I am desperate for some real communication with him about our r/s.  We've never really talked about what happened with us.  The reason, I suppose, is that by the time we reconnected as friends, he had already done a quick "replacement" r/s with another woman and that hurt me tremendously.  I didn't see the point in talking about it -- I would have wanted to say "I thought we were so special and important," and what could he really say except "I realized we weren't."  My theory was that he was not really able to explain his decision-making about relationships accurately.  There is so much projection & so much defensiveness involved that it ends up being a self-justifying explanation that hurts me and doesn't shed any more light.

So I've ended up in this very walled off posture where I am open to new experiences with him and will share deeply about things that happen now, including things between us (though I'm struggling with this damn text thing), but we don't talk about the past. I've thought that was the best way, honestly, to create the possibility of a real love now.  :)on't rehash.  :)on't make him feel shame or guilt.  Create a healthy, trustworthy r/s now and be open to where that takes us.

But I have this niggling feeling that all of this went wrong because he felt abandoned by/betrayed by me originally, and my posture now, as if I am OK with what happened, is in a way compounding that.  We're both acting like we're fine with what happened.  He indeed has proactively declared he wants only a friendship.  But what if this is happening because we are both scared to be open with one another and scared to risk again?  Is there no way to crack through that?

***

About the texting.  Is DEARMAN necessary?  Is a quick "hey, where'd you go?" a reasonable substitute (where I am not talking about the pattern, just cueing him that I noticed and it mattered).

If I were to do DEARMAN:

(Describe) The last few weeks, during text "conversations," you've ended your communication without saying goodbye.

(Express) When that happens, I feel like I'm hanging out there alone, wondering if you remember I'm there.  However irrational it is, and no doubt because I have an intense abandonment fear when it comes to you, I feel like I wasn't important enough for you to finish the conversation -- something else came up that you preferred to move along to.

(Assert) I don't expect us to continue text conversations indefinitely and I respect that you may need to go.  If you do, it would really help me if you could say goodbye, or goodnight, or that you need to go for now.

(Reinforce) My instinct when I feel you're abandoning me is to pull back, shut down and disappear myself.  In fact, I've done the same thing I'm asking you not to do -- I've just vanished in the text exchange because I didn't want to be in the position of you ending it.  I left first so I wouldn't be left.  But that's a downward spiral that doesn't make anything better.  In my rational mind, I know we both care, and it seems a waste to act otherwise and cause each other to wonder what happened.  So I thought I'd ask if we could handle it differently, and both check out of conversations with an acknowledgement that we "see" each other, even though we have to go.

Thoughts?

[MaybeSo]

My ex use to keep me waiting.

He was very vocal about the lack of manners in others, and had very romantic and dramatic ideals about manners and decency and how a lack of such is indicative of the breakdown of civilization.

But he thought nothing of agreeing to meet me at 7 only to arrive at a much later time. Lots of excuses bla bla bla basically last minute things kept cropping up that were more important than scheduled plans with me.

I finally told him if he is late, I wont be there when he arrives. And I did it. I was not there. I did this twice. He stopped being late. He never keeps me waiting, never.

He used to complain about men who are cheaters, too. Felt much superior to those low-life's. turns out he has more in common with those men then he thought.

These folks don't have fully formed SELVES.

So, the presentation of SELF changes as the environment and circumstances change... .because their feelings change.

My guy learned some things, he is capable of behavior change. I saw it with the being late issue. Not so much with other issues. But he certainly knows where I stand either way.

Ask for what you want. If he can't provide it, provide it for yourself. Be careful to not assign motives to his behavior that are more about echoes from your own past. It's not punishing unless you cooperate with it. It sounds like you dislike his behavior and feel like you have to put up with it for fear of his reaction if you say anything. Now THAT would feel punishing. You don't HAVE to put up with anything. That's a choice.

Or, you are bummed because he isn't providing a feeling state that he use to provide. He never provided that feeling state, it always resided in you and does now, too. You don't have to depend or rely on him for it. Since he's so changeable, that dependence will always leave you feeling upset and punished.

You have to be able to risk losing this man. If you can't, then you are being punished, but not by him.

You have to speak up. Your concerns are reasonable.

He probably won't like it. He may ditch you for a while.

This is something you have to contend with sooner or later.

You can send a prior text message and ask what has happened to the two of you... But that's pretty heady stuff. Putting on my male BPD hat, I think I'd feel some shame if I got a message like that, and... .It's all on me to make things feel beautiful for you.

How about just pointing out that he has been leaving your text conversations abruptly and you'd like him to go back to closing them the way he use to. If he's so fragile that you can't mention something this small ... .then you guys aren't in a relationship,  your just engaging in a kind of theater with very carefully dictated scripts and acts.

If that's what this is, better to find out now than later. A relationship requires 'relating'. If he can't relate in any manner other than a script he has in his mind, if any deviation means he leaves or stops all communication.if he is truly that fragile, . That's just not a relationship. Someone has to have a SELF in this relationship!

[patientandclear]

I   you MaybeSo.  Thank you.

I was writing in parallel with your message, I think.  OK, I will say something.  The feeling sucks otherwise.

I tried in my post above yours to explore what it is I would be trying to accomplish by sending the old email, too (which is a different issue ... .it's about trying to crack through our communication barrier about the real emotional bond between us -- I feel like there's this big pretense that we are both OK with the current arrangement and I think it mostly flows from defendedness on both our parts.  I know it does does for me, and I suspect it does for him).

The text thing is different because it is about the actual r/s we actually have now.  So yes, I hear you, I need to step up.  I tried a DEARMAN approach above -- thoughts?

[seeking balance]

About the texting.  Is DEARMAN necessary?  Is a quick "hey, where'd you go?" a reasonable substitute (where I am not talking about the pattern, just cueing him that I noticed and it mattered).

texting is not the best communication tool for getting your needs met.

"where'd you go" - well if he answers the question, you certainly don't get him to even know you are having issues with his actions - so you are going to have to use DEARMAN or some tool so you can learn to communicate your needs.

If I were to do DEARMAN:

(Describe) The last few weeks, during text "conversations," you've ended your communication without saying goodbye.

good

(Express) When that happens, I feel like I'm hanging out there alone, wondering if you remember I'm there.  However irrational it is, and no doubt because I have an intense abandonment fear when it comes to you, I feel like I wasn't important enough for you to finish the conversation -- something else came up that you preferred to move along to.

none of this is necessary - you are telling him his feelings, stick with your own.

(Assert) I don't expect us to continue text conversations indefinitely and I respect that you may need to go.  If you do, it would really help me if you could say goodbye, or goodnight, or that you need to go for now.

good

(Reinforce) My instinct when I feel you're abandoning me is to pull back, shut down and disappear myself.  In fact, I've done the same thing I'm asking you not to do -- I've just vanished in the text exchange because I didn't want to be in the position of you ending it.  I left first so I wouldn't be left.  But that's a downward spiral that doesn't make anything better.  In my rational mind, I know we both care, and it seems a waste to act otherwise and cause each other to wonder what happened.  So I thought I'd ask if we could handle it differently, and both check out of conversations with an acknowledgement that we "see" each other, even though we have to go.

can you simplify this even more?

good first start - a little tweaking is all.  If I were you, and texting or email were my only options, I would go towards email.

[eeyore]

good replies from MaybeSo and PAC.  I'm working so I can't say as much as I want... .but I'll reply later today. 

[patientandclear]

Darn it! I was feeling good after drafting that--it DID feel better to act this way rather than sitting around being hurt & defensive.

Of course, first thing this a.m., he sent what is to my mind the lamest possible text but nonetheless taking away the "you're not acknowledging" issue: he wrote "just got texts from last nite." (Very brief comment responding to what I'd said/asked.) "Have a great day!"

Now, of course, I feel like it's a problem to send my planned DEARMAN email.  Also, I'm imagining (perhaps groundlessly) that he met up with a/the current object of his affections and that was it for us last night ... .might be that, might be text delay, I don't know obviously. But if so, that is an example of the abandonment dynamic that causes me so much trouble with him. So much worry that he is going to leave me behind & get someone else more (momentarily) important.

Is there some way to still move forward with communicating about that that makes sense in light of his lame but technically proper (if we were in a casual friendship, which we're not) gesture this morning?

[seeking balance]

  Also, I'm imagining (perhaps groundlessly) that he met up with a/the current object of his affections and that was it for us last night ... .might be that, might be text delay, I don't know obviously.

How is the ptsd therapy search going from the last thread? 

This line of thought has to be exhausting for you - and it may be time for you to look in the mirror at your expectations and if they are realistic based on the situation you are in with him.  Perhaps your own trauma is now keeping you tied to a very draining reality with him.

I know you FEEL like you have more than a friendship connection, and that is real for you.   From what you have written in various threads, the reality is you and he live across the country and only text (not talk).  Can you see how challenging these dynamics are going to be for you to: 

1. know if your "assumptions" are correct

2.  get any of your needs met

DEARMAN is for you to express your needs - these facts didn't change for you even when he acknowledged you the next day.  The other thing, perhaps you need to learn a new way to self-soothe when he doesn't respond immediately.  Is that what this forum is for you maybe?  A place to come self-soothe when he is not engaging with you and you get a bit stressed?

[LetItBe]

Hi, P&C.  I do like your DEARMAN statement.

I just wanted to offer an alternative, something simple and brief.  What if you just said, "You know how it's bothered you in the past when I've abruptly disappeared from our texts conversations?  I'm glad you let me know about that so that I could let you know when I need to go and not leave you hanging.  I, too, have found it difficult when I've felt like I'm left hanging.  Could you please do the same for me and let me know when you need to go so that we both understand the conversation is over until next time?"

I don't know... .I just know I'm feeling done with walking on eggshells and tailoring my every word in a painstaking way for my BPDxbf to reciprocate things that are common courtesy, much less things that I want and need in an intimate r/s.  I like MaybeSo's metaphor from another thread about yanking the sheet off the corpse.

[eeyore]

I just wanted to offer an alternative, something simple and brief.  What if you just said, "You know how it's bothered you in the past when I've abruptly disappeared from our texts conversations?  I'm glad you let me know about that so that I could let you know when I need to go and not leave you hanging.  I, too, have found it difficult when I've felt like I'm left hanging.  Could you please do the same for me and let me know when you need to go so that we both understand the conversation is over until next time?"

I don't know... .I just know I'm feeling done with walking on eggshells and tailoring my every word in a painstaking way for my BPDxbf to reciprocate things that are common courtesy, much less things that I want and need in an intimate r/s.  I like MaybeSo's metaphor from another thread about yanking the sheet off the corpse.

Or you do speak your mind but while they listen and hear what you say they ignore it.  Then claim they had no idea... .innocent

[MaybeSo]

Of course, first thing this a.m., he sent what is to my mind the lamest possible text but nonetheless taking away the "you're not acknowledging" issue: he wrote "just got texts from last nite." (Very brief comment responding to what I'd said/asked.) "Have a great day!"

I don't think anything has changed.

My response would have been:

Thank you for your follow-up text. I was left wondering what happened. What happened?

TALK TO HIM

[patientandclear]

OK , OK  

New issue: he has not yet replied to a long, substantive email I sent on Saturday morning, responding nicely & warmly to one of his.  This is very, very unusual for us.  Unprecedented I think.

So I drafted this modified DEARMAN email to address both the texting & the email silence.  Thoughts?  I think I will send it in a few hours, so fire away!

Hi ... .

It feels like something has changed in our communication rhythms.  It's been a long time, for us, since I wrote the email below, without an answer.  And in each of our text exchanges the past few weeks, which have been great, you've stopped communicating without saying goodbye.  What's up?

It's hard for me to go from the level of intimate communication we typically have, when we are in touch, to silence.  That is the rhythm of a casual friendship, but that is not what we have. I don't think we can have that -- we are and have been too close -- and it is not my impression that that is what either of us wants.

So I thought I'd ask if we could handle it differently, and both check out of conversations with an acknowledgement that we "see" each other, even though we have to go or don't have time to respond right away.

I don't expect us to continue text conversations indefinitely and I respect that you may need to go.  If you do, it would really help me if you could say goodbye, or goodnight, or that you need to go for now.  With email, if you can't get to it, I understand.  But I really appreciated, for example, when we were writing daily & you knew you wouldn't see email when I was in LA (when you first got your new phone), that you texted to say that.

I need to acknowledge that I have done the same thing I'm asking you not to do -- I've just vanished in the text exchange because I didn't want to be in the position of you ending it.  I left first so I wouldn't be left.  My instinct when I feel you're abandoning me is to pull back, shut down and disappear myself.

But once we start pulling back because we aren't sure of one another, it's a downward spiral that leads nowhere but out, and my rational mind knows we both care, and that would be such a waste.  It is so much more gratifying and fun to gain confidence and trust, which I think we are entitled to at this point.


Your thoughts?

[seeking balance]

P&C - I am going to give you honest feedback, if the approach is not quite as warm and fuzzy, it is only because I am being tactical in my response.

The letter is great for someone without communication/intimacy issues.

When I use this tool and from everything I have read in DBT - it should be clear, simple and direct.  You are a flowery writer - it is one of your strengths that people relate on this forum - however, for a pwBPD - too much can become overwhelming - and triggering.  You and both know that a triggered pwBPD rarely gets what we are trying to achieve.

How about really, really going against your natural communication style and try simplifying it based only on the 1 issue of texting.  I tweaked below, but feel free to not use - this is how I have learned to communicate with my mom when I need to set a boundary or get her to understand an action and it has been working quite well.

I feel something has changed in our communication rhythms.  Our text exchanges the past few weeks, which have been great, but sometimes you've stopped communicating without saying goodbye. 

It's hard for me to go from the level of intimate communication we typically have, when we are in touch, to silence.  That is the rhythm of a casual friendship, but that is not what we have. I don't think we can have that -- we are and have been too close -- and it is not my impression that that is what either of us wants.

deleted because this is a totally separate issue and could trigger or cloud the original problem you are experiencing.



So I thought I'd ask if we could handle it differently, and both check out of conversations with an acknowledgement that we "see" each other, even though we have to go or don't have time to respond right away.

I don't expect us to continue text conversations indefinitely and I respect that you may need to go.  If you do, it would really help me if you could say goodbye, or goodnight, or that you need to go for now.  With email, if you can't get to it, I understand.  But I really appreciated, for example, when we were writing daily & you knew you wouldn't see email when I was in LA (when you first got your new phone), that you texted to say that.

Does this seem like something you can do?

[patientandclear]

OK, I hear that.  I guess one question is -- what AM I trying to accomplish here?  Getting the text rhythm to improve could be one goal, but I think maybe the central issue I'm having is deeper.  It is really like MaybeSo said on my other thread: step up to the plate if you want to be in my life.  And the plate is larger than texting.

MaybeSo's suggested response to his text this morning was "it left me wondering what had happened.  What happened?"

This is asking him, basically, WTH?  What's up?  (Which I notice you recommend taking out, SB.)

It is an invitation to an actual conversation about what is going on.  Which could involve him telling me he's seeing someone else & doesn't know how to integrate our more intimate dynamic into that r/s.  For example.

If my objective is sort of to "go big or go home," i.e., get more real about what is going on for me emotionally and what is up for him, this DEARMAN approach about the limited issue of texting isn't going to do that, right?

[seeking balance]

OK, I hear that.  I guess one question is -- what AM I trying to accomplish here?  Getting the text rhythm to improve could be one goal, but I think maybe the central issue I'm having is deeper.  It is really like MaybeSo said on my other thread: step up to the plate if you want to be in my life.  And the plate is larger than texting.

MaybeSo's suggested response to his text this morning was "it left me wondering what had happened.  What happened?"

This is asking him, basically, WTH?  What's up?  (Which I notice you recommend taking out, SB.)

It is an invitation to an actual conversation about what is going on.  Which could involve him telling me he's seeing someone else & doesn't know how to integrate our more intimate dynamic into that r/s.  For example.

If my objective is sort of to "go big or go home," i.e., get more real about what is going on for me emotionally and what is up for him, this DEARMAN approach about the limited issue of texting isn't going to do that, right?

Great questions - what exactly is your goal?  Your thread was started about a texting issue - if this is an issue you can improve, is the rest of your dynamic ok for now?

If it is "go big or go home" - start with that approach and get rid of the minor issues.  Are you ready to do that though?  If he says you are "friends" - what are you going to do differently?  If he says, "great" let's get together - are you truly ready for that too?

Again - where are you in your own T - some of the emotions you are having regarding texts and email triggers could be related to your acknowledged ptsd.