Need help sorting this out

[fft524]

... .So I've been posting here for a couple of months, there's a thread on it... .I came here after my T made a diagnosis of BPD in my (then) live-in gf. She was acting extremely unusual for her, and was angry and abusive... .however, I could always understand why. Rumors were flying that she had cheated on me, and I actually found evidenve of this. She got angry and defensive when I asked her about and vehemently denied it. Recently, however, she came clean and admitted that she had, but there is also very strong evidence that she was drugged at a party. She explained that she had lied to me because she's ashamed, embarrassed, and

e her. (she ca

n't remember anything and found out from a friend what she'd done the next day). She's written a letter explaining everything, and has scheduled an appointment with a psychiatrist for us to go together.

[fft524]

Sorry for the break in posts. My phone doesn't do well posting here. At any rate, my T made the diagnosis without meeting her, and did so solely on my description of her behavior. Right now, I can't figure out if he's on to something, or if I'm dealing with a trauma response. I want to believe her, because she explained that she lied because she was scared and embarrassed. She's truthfully answered all of my questions. I'm just wary because I don't know if this a trauma response or BPD. I can't and won't deal with BPD, but if it is what gf says, I want to support her. She's agreed to contact law enforcement and work with them, which gives me some confidence, and she's trying extremely hard to rebuild my trust in her. I don't know how to proceed, because I want to protect myself, but I also want to help her. Should I try to get a second opinion, or am I just being manipulated? I'm somewhay skeptical of the diagnosis without  my T talking to her... .lil help here!

[willbegood]

I'd find a new therapist. What kind of professional diagnoses someone via talking to their better half?

[fft524]

He essentially dared me to second guess his 30 years of experience (almost verbatim wording). Between my gf not being anything like herself and my T telling me its BPD and scaring the sh-t out of me, I haven't known what to do. I don't want to stake the relationship she and I had on a secondhand diagnosis, but I want to protect myself, too. If he was wrong, and she was assaulted, I could never forgive myself for leaving when she needed me most.

[papawapa]

If she lied to you about the cheating, made the excuse of being drugged, you should be wary of believing her.

See if she actually follows through with going to the police.

Seeing a psychiatrist is something that she should do on her own. Her wanting to bring you raises a red flag for me. You should go but be prepared for her to use the psychiatrist to convince you she was a victim.

[fft524]

I agree, papawa... .what gives me pause is that before she said anything to me she was behaving as though something had happened to her. In fact, my first impression was that she had been assaulted... .wouldn't look at me, wouldn't let me touch her at all, wouldn't talk to me. I called a rape crisis hotline (unbeknownst to her), for advice. The counselor immediately agreed from my description of her behavior that something bad had gone down. This was well (as in weeks) before any of the behavior that my T labeled BPD.

[fft524]

(Ben Stein voice)

Bueller... .Bueller... .Bueller... .? Any thoughts/guidance?

She's agreed to going to assault counseling groups with her mom, so if this is a ploy, it'sa damn convincing one... .

[babyducks]

from the workshop on this site labeled Is It Really BPD?

There are definitions for "personality disorder" as a category and then there are definitions for the subcategories (i.e., borderline, narcissistic, antisocial, etc.).  Start with the broader definition first.  Keep in mind that to be a personality disorder, symptoms have been present for an extended period of time, are inflexible and pervasive, and are not a result of alcohol or drugs or another psychiatric disorder - - the history of symptoms can be traced back to adolescence or at least early adulthood - - the symptoms have caused and continue to cause significant distress or negative consequences in different aspects of the person's life. Symptoms are seen in at least two of the following areas: thoughts (ways of looking at the world, thinking about self or others, and interacting), emotions (appropriateness, intensity, and range of emotional functioning), interpersonal functioning (relationships and interpersonal skills), or impulse control

People with BPD are high conflict people who have a pattern of a lot of turmoil in their social relationships.   They have harmfully intense emotions that wax and wane fairly rapidly.  They have difficulty controlling impulses and struggle with empathy.

take a look at:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=63511.0


Nobody on this site can diagnosis but we do have a wealth of experience to share.  The thing of it is... .none of us can figure this out in days.   Its taken me about  a year to figure out how my EX processed the world around her.   Yeah finally things are starting to make some sense.

Take a deep breath.   Relax.   Let the tension drain away.   Take some time.   I would suggest that the fact you are even seriously considering that something as horrific as a sexual assault could be some type of ploy speaks volumes to the level of drama and over all health of your R/S.

My two cents.

babyducks

[papawapa]

So she has AGREED to go with her mom. That doesnt mean she will. If she does have BPD she is an expert liar.  I am skeptical. What she is telling you sounds good, I know what it is like to want to believe her. Just be cautious and wait for her actions to match her words.

If she really was drugged and sexually assaulted why has she not gone to the police?

It seems a little too convenient that she is going to this crisis thing and in the end you will never be able to verify if she actually goes... .

[babyducks]

I see things a little differently from papawapa.     People who suffer from the mental illness of BPD perceive and process information differently from you and I.   Their reality and ours, as the Nons are usually quite different.   Which makes relationships between us filled with ambiguity and uncertainty.

Perhaps we can take a moment and consider how traumatic being drugged and sexually assaulted is?   And how difficult it would be to relive the details in the cold and sterile environment of a police station? 

Perhaps a little sympathy is in order?   Which is not to say don't verify information when possible or protect yourself if you sense you are being misled.  That is all good and practical advice.   

It is also good advice to walk the middle line, balanced between extremes.   

[ZigofZag]

Not sure if this helps.

My exBPDw took people to court, accused friends of abuse, accused her employer of rape, her own brother of sexual assault, a taxi driver of a sexual assault, then me of violence.

The last one I KNOW is untrue, the rest I now seriously doubt... .It was the need in me to help her that kept me with her. She knew that.

There was another drama when she needed to top up on attention and/or excuse her behaviour (including staying out until 3am and getting drunk with another man)

She attended so many support and treatment programs I lost count. She thrived on the attention.

Tricky and painful to work out as a loving partner.

I suggest that you support and help her with eyes wide open.

[fft524]

I agree with the advice to proceed with extreme caution; as far as being an expert liar, frankly, she sucks at lying, unless that's some kind of front, too. I don't know who or what to believe, for a variety of reasons. I know my T is well-intentioned, but I can't help but be skeptical of his diagnosis... .would an MD diagnose cancer by talking to a spouse? My questioning whether it is a ploy is based more on what I've read about BPD than actual experience with her. Since everything went down, I've been in hyper-defensive mode because I haven't had a clue what was going on or what was true.

[fft524]

She's afraid to go to the police because she's worried about getting all of this dragged out into the open for no good end, because it would come down to her word against hos. She has, however, contacted a family friend who is in LE in the jurisdiction where it occurred. After extended convo. with her mom, it came out that the truth always comes out with her, it just takes a while. She's making all the right movrs, its just thatbetween my T's secomdhand diagnosis, my reading, and her behavior, I'm in a scary, difficult place. She's also mentioned wanting to talk to younger girls about what happened to her to keep it from happening to them... .

[mitchell16]

fft524< I would try to give her the benefit of beleiveing her but like so many said proceed with caution. Mine exBPD had been date raped so many times priro to us I have lost count of how mant stories. Not to say it wasnt true but what i found in my experience with her was when she did something she got caught at or was ashamed of she always found an excuse to make it not her fault. like, I was drunk and i didnt know what i said, or I was drunk so it wasnt my fault, or I took ambien and I dont remeber doing that.

She told me about an incident that happened to her about two years before we met, she was " raped" and the story was horrible I was in shock. I asked some questions very carefully but I noticed that the story just didnt make sense. None added up. She didnt go to police, didnt get medical treatement, first it was one man but later it become two men. After two years of hearing this story, I was telling her about someone I heard of reporting a false rape. She asked why would anybody do that. I said attention seeking, got caught doing something that they were ashamed of, so. She then blurted out maybe thats what i did, I wanted that sitition to happen but then I felt bad and made up a rape story in my mind. I was floored because for two years, I was led to believe this horror story and accordingto her alot of her fears in life where centered around this incident. So I was blowed away. Thats when i started wondering if anything she claimed happened to her in her life really ever happened the way she said it. I know she has told lies about my behavior. BPD for what I can tell are very talent actor and actress and very good telling very convincing lies. Im not say all of them are but with  mine at one point she could convince me of anything. until I started catching her in the lies.

[Ironmanrises]

If she has BPD which it really sounds like she does given your description... .

She will do this to you again.

And again.

It's a pattern of behavior.

Read a lot of the accounts here.

You will see so many similarities that you will almost not want to believe it because it is scary.

Jarring.

But that is the unfortunate truth of dealing with someone who had that disorder.

She will hurt you again.

And worse each progressive time you allow that person back into your life.

Stay strong.

[fft524]

After talking with a close friend who works in the industry, I've found a therapist that comes highly recommended for dealing with situations like this. My friend suggested that if gf is really serious about working things out that we see this counselor, and gave me a personal reference. He's seen firsthand (neighbor) her behavior, and is as skeptical as I am, if not more. His suggestion is to see this T alone beforehand and then bring gf in to see her. Gf has already tried twice to schedule appointments for the two of us, but I couldn't make either one (job=emergency services). It sounds like this T could be the answer I'm looking for--definitive, not jumping the gun based on secondhand observations, and with personal experience + training to back it up. All I'm looking for is an unbiased, professional opinion, which I haven't been able to get, and it sounds like this is the person I've been trying to find. I'm tired of relying on gut instinct (which is conflicted by emotion), the opinions of friends and family who care, and wildass guesses (on my part). I'm looking for a professional, concrete opinion so I can either back the woman I love 150% or get the hell out and save myself. I'm going into this with eyes wide open, much more so than I was when I first met gf. I'm looking for a long term, committed, mature relationship, and I feel that this t can give me a clear-eyed, objective perspective on whether I'm wasting my time or not. Thank you all for your input, and I look forward to reading more of it.

[Clearmind]

Babyducks, I think you are onto something. I see there being two issues to process for fft524

1. Relinquishing the event around ex allegedly being sexually assaulted and yes I agree exercising some empathy.

2. Looking at the actions regardless of #1 of fft524's ex prior to this sexual assault incident and begin to detach based on the entire relationship history not just a traumatic event.

Broadening the perspective may help.

fft524, can you give us an idea of behaviors that were concerning you prior to this event? I think we are getting a little wrapped up in one event here rather than piecing together the relationship history.

[fft524]

Honestly, there weren't any that concerned me.

She was always happy and bubbly, and a joy to be around. She's a goofball most of the time, but one of those people that nobody dislikes... .tons of friends. Looking back from here, the only thing that -might- be a telltale sign was that she moved in after about 4 months of dating, 6 months of knowing each other. I'd given her a key to the house, and she had asked if she could leave some clothes in the bottom of my chest of drawers. Not a big deal, since we'd meet at the gym where we first met after work, work out, and then go to dinner or whatever after stopping at the house to change. I came home one day a month later, and she had moved a LOT of her things in. A few weeks later, I came home to discover that she and her best friend had hung all my pictures, brought over lamps, her pictures, and pretty much decorated my apartment for me using my things and some of hers. Not a huge deal at the time, since I was still in the process of moving in on the weekends and occasionally after work, and she -was- pretty much living with me at the time, so I figured it came with the territory; she was the first girl I'd ever lived with. We never fought, no issues with honesty, no questions on anything on my part. She was shaping up to be the ideal girlfriend, and we had been discussing the possibility of getting engaged in the next year or so.

[fft524]

Further, the only thing that made me even consider that she was BPD was my T's conclusion based on my description of her behavior.

Quick and dirty rundown: I was out of town for work, and when she picked me up at the airport, i knew something was wrong. She wouldn't look at me, wouldn't let me touch her at all, wouldn't say anything. She tried to break up with me. After a day and a half of lying in bed staring out the window, she told me she wanted to be dead. I scheduled an emergency appointment with my T to figure out what to do. From her behavior and things she said, her family came over and had her Baker Acted. She wouldn't see anyone while she was in, and disappeared for 4 days after she got out. She had been living house to house with friends, and was scared to come home, because she (later) said she was afraid that the cops were going to come (they were the ones who actually BA'd her). She was ok when I left town, and when I came back, I got blindsided by all this. When she was in the hospital, she was diagnosed with a mood disorder, but they didn't know about the assault... .that's only come out in the past couple of weeks, at least to me.

[ZigofZag]

Tough situation, I would say support, love and understanding, again, with eyes wide open.

Phew, it is so tricky. I am jaded after being drawn in by my exBPDw over six years.

You will need to help her to ensure that you are "doing the right thing" for you both. It would be terrible if the T's remote diagnosis was wrong. If there was no previous then, well, who knows. After saying that, my wife was superb right up until we got married, then the world tilted off its axis.

Please keep us updated.

I wish you both all the very best

[Clearmind]

Bpd is a pervasive pattern of behavior. Very difficult to say if she is Bpd based on one event.

[fft524]

I appreciate the thoughts ZZ, have no doubt that my guard is up as high as it gets still.

That said, I actually saw her for the first time in a couple of weeks (thanks to work, being on the defensive, etc), and she was really happy to see me. She's revealed a few truths over the past few days, which is a burden off both our chests, even though they're not pretty. I had a chance to talk to her about her bizarre behavior, and she explained that it was the result of fear, shame, frustration, and being afraid that I was going to leave her. I think she genuinely wants to try to work things out, but my guard is still up and my eyes are still open. She jumped on the chance to go to counseling, and explained that she was going to do some things with her mom, too. (Group assault counseling, her mom told me about it, but gf wasn't comfortable talking about it.) She tried to give me the letter she wrote that explains everything, but I told her that for tonight I just wanted to see her and not talk about any of that. She wants to give it to me, but I have to admit, I'm kinda scared to read it. I don't think that she or her family truly understand how much what happened to her hurt all of us. Part of the problem, I think ,is that with all of this is that I've been cycling, myself.  With everything that's gone on, the emotional trauma, and the remote diagnosis, I've been cycling through fear, anger, rage, sadness, love for her, the desire to protect her, fear of the possibility that she may very well be BP, fear of her because of that, hurt... .the list goes on. Not seeing her for a couple of weeks gave both of us the opportunity to step back and re-examine things and get leveled off. She's told me repeatedly that she wants me to read this letter, but that she's afraid that I'm going to judge her and leave her for what's in it. I told her very directly that the best way to make me leave was to continue to lie to me, and that the only thing that will make me stay (or even consider it) is the truth. I think that hit home with her, because I could see it in her eyes, and she told me exactly why she hadn't been forthcoming and how I could approach her to get the truth.

I feel for the girl, because she was scared of her own shadow before all of this happened, and she's afraid to talk to me because she thinks I'm going to leave... .(daddy issues, anyone?) I'm the first guy that she's dated that actually listened to her, treated her with any respect, and that she feels comfortable being herself around. BPD or not, I've started establishing serious boundaries with her, and I'm not sure she knows how to take it.

[fft524]

I've scheduled two appointments with a new T suggested by a friend; she sounds like she has a very refined BS detector, so I'm actually looking forward to it. Scheduled one for myself to give the T some background on the situation since gf doesn't want to talk in depth about the events leading up to to all this, which is somewhat understandable. My plan is to give the T some background info in one appointment, then go with gf on the second appt. I'm doing the best I can to give her a chance, but I'm not letting my guard down at all, either. The letter I referenced in previous posts actually exists, she gave it to me this morning, but I'm kinda scared to read it... . 

[Aussie0zborn]

She's also mentioned wanting to talk to younger girls about what happened to her to keep it from happening to them... .

I was starting to think that you could be right until I read this. I don't like it one bit. I could tell when my exBPDw was lying and I would ask her questions on it and she would stretch it out beyond belief - but that's just my experience.

As far as your second hand BPD diagnosis is concerned... .

We use the term "uBPD" here and nobody challenges us. We formed this opinion from what we have read about BPD and matched those traits with our partners behaviors. I would think that a professional consultation on your personal situation would be more accurate than how some of us here have worked it out.  In any case, it does no harm to be aware of BPD and keeping that in the back of your mind.

[fft524]

In fairness, Aussie, her mom mentioned that in a conversation I was having with her; that was secondhand information, and could probably very easily be an interjection; my guard, however, remains at 115%. 

[papawapa]

Be prepared for her to flake when the time comes to go to the appointment.

[mitchell16]

fft524, I was re-reading some more of your post and you mentioned that your was afarid of her shadow. Im not second guessing you or your expeirence but I see so much of what you are telling and how it relates to my BPDGF. The can be very talent actors and actress. They can change to anything when its needed. and they can be very convincing liars. Not to say this applies to all BPD but what I have read and exprienced it very common thing. My ex is not diagnosed either. I saw it from reading the book 'stop walking on eggshells after about 2 years into teh relationship. Once I read that book and found this board all of the things that didnt make sense, made sense. My therapist told me her couldnt diagnose her without talking with her. This I understood. But he did say if what I was telling him was true she certainlny sounded just like she was BPD. Once he did meet her. He never told me what was said between them but he did say that I need to walk away and that I couldnt fix her. and that she would eventually destroy me. Of course I cant always listen to his or my own advice. Its very hard to when you love someone to just let go, it is a struggle.

BUt tell you somethings about mine that sound like yours.

when we first met she was afraid of everything, the dark, doors not locked at night, bars, you name it. she alway told me I made her feel safe ( hook) later one that all changed. She was no longer afraid of anything. This was after the  hook was set already. all of a sudden she wasnt afraid of the dark, she seemed to love the bars becuase she couldnt stay out of them.

rape stories. Like I said several of them. But they always changed. Once it was two men, next she was drugged, next she wasnt. alway alluding to bad things that has happeend to her. Of course it might be true all that may have happened. But later I saw her with my own two eyes, get drunk one night in my presence and try to sit in another man lap, very sexual in nature. When she was confronted with that sober, she said well you cant hold me responsible for what I did I was drunk. See where this is going. Mine would make up anything to or use any excuse to cover her tracks when she does inappropriet behaviors. She just write it off or re writes the story to fit her needs.

Im not saying yours is not telling the truth but something is not ring true to my ears. just proceed with caution. If it was mine I would be sympathtic but I would still be leary. Mine agreed to therapy, made total of two sessions. The found a reason not to go back. Oh, yeah she was getting therapy from her best friend who is a therapist. Thats why she quit. I relized she is smart enough to avoid anybody she cant manuplate to see it her way. when she was looking for a therapist for her child, I suggested the one we used, I mean why not. at first she agreed and then she back out. She cited everything from the therapist religuos beliefs, to you name. In my mind she knows she has BPD and she know it will be hard to full diagnose it. right now its her word againt mine. She can paint it, Im a disgruntled boyfriend and the therapist will not know a 100 percent who to believe. But put her child in the mix and he also tells the therapist how she acts while the child was growing up. Now, the therapist has a some what independant person who can back up my story. She was smart enough to avoid all this.

I guess what im saying is, I understand where you are at but be very careful because alot of them are very smart and know just how to play the game. the right words, right gestures.

[fft524]

... .So gf(?) finally came through with the letter... .she doesn't remember much of what happened, and there are some things in there that raise questions for me. In fairness, she has shame and embarrassment written all over her face, and desperately doesn't want to talk about what happened. She has, however, told me that although she doesn't want to talk about it, she will give me 2 hours to talk about it, no holds barred. We've gone to a therapy session together, and the results were mixed. She had really bad experiences with therapy when she was a child, and was extremely scared to go, but she did. The therapist quickly figured out that there was a giant pink gorilla in the room, but gf(?) was adamant about not wanting to talk about it. She's agreed to go back tomorrow. She's made the comment several times that she's ok and doesn't really want to go, but that she realizes that going together is going to be the only way we might have a chance at saving this relationship; her exact words were "I'm doing this for you, because I know you're not ok with all of this, but I want to be with you."  My guard is still well over 100%, and honestly, it may never come down with her. I believe that something awful happened to her, and I can only imagine how painful it must be to be in her shoes. Do I honestly believe she loves me? Yes. Do I believe that she would take it all back if she could? Yes. Do I believe she learned from all of this? Yes. Do I believe that this is salvageable? I honestly don't know. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my T made a secondhand diagnosis of BPD without ever meeting her. I had a chance to discuss the situation with our T, and they don't see BPD, but a very strong possibility of alcoholism. I know everyone can look at a picture and see something different, but it's an ugly one no matter how you look at it. I just wish I knew for sure what we're dealing with so I could make a confident decision on what to do. I'm not going to abandon her, because I KNOW something happened to her, but I also know I can't stick around in my current capacity if I don't know what we're dealing with. The simplest action would to be to go NC and just be done, but I don't have it in my heart to take the risk of breaking hers if it's not BPD. She is also attending a support session this week, too. She's terrified and ashamed, but she's making the right moves. As far as I'm concerned... .I have upbeat days and really bad down days. I woke up today convinced that  leaving was my only option, but yesterday I was convinced that this could actually be salvageable. I realize that the truth of the situation on my end lies somewhere in the middle, it's just a matter of stabilizing myself (and the situation, though that's not entirely under my control, nor should it be). I realize that the only person I can really help or save is myself; however, that isn't stopping me from supporting her and doing my best to show her what her options are for getting through this, and that she doesn't have to do it alone.  I don't want to be anything other than her bf if that's even still possible. I'm not a parent, I'm not a counselor, nor do I want to be. I'm willing to be a partner, and that's it. The ball's in her court, and I think she's doing her best to get her head in the game. However, there's so much damage... .

[eeyore]

sometimes I really wish we could be the proverbial fly on the wall and be able to see what they do when we aren't around.

[fft524]

You aren't kidding there... .We went to a second appointment today, and she refused to talk about the events that led up to the situation we are in now, even though I explained that that would help me make sense of everything. I refuse to try to force her to do anything, but it seems counterproductive to her stated goal of going to try to help me and us. She will talk relatively freely to me, but refuses to do so with a counselor present. Its odd. I dont know if its because of what actually happened to her or because shes afraid of getting caught in a lie or something. She also changed her story about the events in the surrounding days from a definite recollection to "I cant remember." Red flag anyone? I just cant quite figure all of this out because of all the ambiguity of the possible causes. It really sucks.