She pushes their buttons.

[Matt]

Legally I share custody 50/50 of my son, 15, and daughter, 17, with their mom, since we were divorced 5 years ago.  We live a few miles apart.  But we've agreed that S15 will be with me more-or-less full-time during the school year, staying with his mom when I travel - usually 1 or 2 nights a week.  And D17 usually spends more time with me than with her mom too.

They're both good kids - good grades, some other activities, and no big disciplinary problems.

When they are with me, they get along well most of the time.  If they start to argue, I let it go for awhile, but if it gets nasty I tell them to knock it off.

When they're with their mom it gets worse, once in a while even some hitting.  I'm convinced their mom, who has BPD, says things that make things worse - she has this super-power - finding the exact right thing to say to make any situation worse.  When one of them is with her it goes OK, but when they're both with her I get calls and texts like "S15 is being a jerk.  Can you come pick me up?".  Usually it's D17 complaining about S15, but the behavior seems to be about equal.

Now I'm on a longer trip than usual - 5 nights away - and I got this from D17:

I want a new schedule where I don't have to be in the same house with S15 EVER. I don't care if I have to walk to school some days, I don't want to live with her anymore, not even for one day.

I called her and we talked - she gets upset but letting her talk always helps.  She uses other people that way too - her friends - vents and then has both feet on the ground.  (S15 doesn't reach out like that - he just puts up with stuff.)

I'm going to try to avoid being away from home for more than a night or two, but I have to travel on business at times, and the kids understand that.  And to my ex's credit, she always takes the kids when I travel - she doesn't fight about that.

I've talked with both kids about this - "You seem to get on each others' nerves when you're over there.  Maybe you can pay attention to how that happens and find ways to keep it from getting worse... ." - trying to get them to see what's happening and intervene on their own.  I don't think they have that perspective yet - their mom is always involved when there is conflict, and they never seem able to sort out her role in it, and although I think I know what's happening - I lived with her for 10 years and I know how she operates - it's impossible for me to get specific because I'm not there, and her super-power is subtle, almost magical - like she does it with her voice, but really it's a clever choice of words - maybe not consciously trying to do it, just how she is.

I've tried to manage this through the schedule - minimizing the time they are both with their mom - and by helping them to see what's happening.  That only works about half-way.  At this age it's really disappointing that they don't get along better - they're both way too mature in other ways to fight with each other... .

[Forward2free]

It's hard being away from the kids when things are going on, but you're right that the parent in charge is responsible for helping to resolve the conflict, not create more.

Teenagers are primed to fight with everyone; (parents, siblings, teachers, the world at large), and it's our job to teach them to resolve conflict, which is made far more difficult when BPD mom is primary caretaker.

Can you help to arm your kids with tools to understand each other so that they engage less and fight fair? It sounds like you are already doing that but I thought I would share some tips anyway.

Enforcing their own time-out. Taking a break instead of yelling so that they can cool down.

Listening. No one wants to be wrong, or the guilty party, and as a society we learn to defend ourselves even if we might be wrong. Listening to each other might help to defuse the problem if they understand the other perspective.

Ask the kids to try to resolve it and come up with ideas on how to minimise the conflict themselves.

It sounds like D17 is almost at an age when she could be on her own at home? In Aust the legal age for clubs is 18 and deemed an adult. Perhaps she is asserting her right to choice and independence too?

It's hard, and probably no easy solution. All kids argue, all siblings fight. Not all mom's fuel the fire though. Hopefully the kids can own their part in it and resolve it in spite of BPD mom's attempts to meddle.

[david]

My ex has those same powers Matt. I only communicate through email and that is one of the reasons. The power gets filtered out through the internet most of the time.

I have an S15 and S10 now. I would get emails from ex about how disrepectful they are, they are monsters, it's all my fault, etc... .I don't have the same problems so I wasn't sure if some part of what she was saying was true, it was a complete fabrication, or it was her magical powers.

I started talking to the boys about what mom's email said. I learned that being specific about exactly what was said by their mom gave the boys incentive to correct the misperceptions by their mom. I would listen to their versions and be able to piece it together. I then talked to them about how to work this out when with their mom. Over time I noticed less and less emails. I don't know if things changed or not but I have noticed they are much closer now when they are with me.  They were close before but their relationship seems stronger. Don't know if it is just growing up or them learning to stick together.

[DreamGirl]

Those magical powers.

She's probably pretty regulated in conflict actually. I've read before that sometimes with this disorder, the individual will equalize what's going on in the inside (chaos) but invoking the same for the outside. I think the mama of my stepkids is sometimes more comfortable when everyone around her is on end. It's all she knows.  

The kids bickering doesn't wear on her nerves like it does mine.

Can you formulate some coping mechanisms with them to use at her house?

Time outs?

Walking away?

Do they like hating each other?

[Matt]

Thanks everybody.  This is helping.

On my way home tonight but I won't see the kids til after school tomorrow.

Can you help to arm your kids with tools to understand each other so that they engage less and fight fair? It sounds like you are already doing that but I thought I would share some tips anyway.

Enforcing their own time-out. Taking a break instead of yelling so that they can cool down.

Listening. No one wants to be wrong, or the guilty party, and as a society we learn to defend ourselves even if we might be wrong. Listening to each other might help to defuse the problem if they understand the other perspective.

Ask the kids to try to resolve it and come up with ideas on how to minimise the conflict themselves.

It sounds like D17 is almost at an age when she could be on her own at home? In Aust the legal age for clubs is 18 and deemed an adult. Perhaps she is asserting her right to choice and independence too?

It's hard, and probably no easy solution. All kids argue, all siblings fight. Not all mom's fuel the fire though. Hopefully the kids can own their part in it and resolve it in spite of BPD mom's attempts to meddle.

I've coached them a lot about stepping away from each other, and from their mom, when they start to experience some conflict.  I need to keep reinforcing that - it's not the whole solution but a big part of it.

I'm not sure either kid is willing to really listen to the other right now.  D17 is a very good listener when she wants to be.  S15 probably not so much, yet - he's not as mature.

I think either kid, or both, are OK at home for 24 hours alone.  We've done that a few times.  The problem is when they are both with their mom.  So next trip, I might try that - maybe leave one kid at my house and let the other stay with their mom.

"Hopefully the kids can own their part in it and resolve it in spite of BPD mom's attempts to meddle." - yeah, I definitely think the answer lies with the kids not their mom.  She won't change, except that when she is under less stress she seems to do better.

[Matt]

My ex has those same powers Matt. I only communicate through email and that is one of the reasons. The power gets filtered out through the internet most of the time.

I have an S15 and S10 now. I would get emails from ex about how disrepectful they are, they are monsters, it's all my fault, etc... .I don't have the same problems so I wasn't sure if some part of what she was saying was true, it was a complete fabrication, or it was her magical powers.

I started talking to the boys about what mom's email said. I learned that being specific about exactly what was said by their mom gave the boys incentive to correct the misperceptions by their mom. I would listen to their versions and be able to piece it together. I then talked to them about how to work this out when with their mom. Over time I noticed less and less emails. I don't know if things changed or not but I have noticed they are much closer now when they are with me.  They were close before but their relationship seems stronger. Don't know if it is just growing up or them learning to stick together.

Yeah, I communicate with my ex almost always through e-mail, but the kids are around her face-to-face.  If they communicated with her only by e-mail - that would be weird but it would work.

It's interesting that when I talk with each of them about what happened - D17, S15 and even their mom - the stories line up pretty well - they all agree what happened.  What's unclear is why it happened - why each kid behaved in ways they wouldn't at my house.

It's been a long time since I based anything on what their mom said alone - she used to tell me they acted badly when they were with her and I learned not to buy into that.  But when one of the kids calls me I listen.

[Matt]

Those magical powers.

I'm not sure they're magical.  I think maybe she was bitten by a radioactive gnat.

Can you formulate some coping mechanisms with them to use at her house?

Time outs?

Walking away?

Do they like hating each other?

I've tried to emphasize walking away - not reacting - not letting annoyance escalate.  I think they both do that sometimes.  At my house it's been a long time since I've seen any overt conflict.

I don't think they hate each other most of the time - they're pretty close - only about 20 months apart in age so they were "the ninos" for many years, in a home with four "adults".  (The older kids are much older.)

But D17 gets very, very upset at S15 at times, and usually it's not clear to me why - he does something annoying but her reaction is way out of proportion.  She complains about stuff he did a long time ago, as if it was today.  She definitely doesn't enjoy "hating" him - it makes her very upset and sad.

Yesterday S15 told me I should talk to D17 since she's the one who is upset - he doesn't see the problem.

[david]

You don't know why it happened so ask each kid why. It may not work the first time but if they keep talking things may become clearer for them and you. It's something I had to learn. Listen and not interrupt. The first few times I didn't do that and tried to fix it. Over time their stories became more insightful and that was when we could talk about it.

I am a high teacher. One time many moons ago I had a girl ask me a question. It was algebra. Math has very specific answers to certain questions. I answered her question. She didn't understand and asked the same exact question. I answered the same question with the same answer. I couldn't think of another way to answer her question properly and then explained that. I pointed out what my interpretation of her question was and we both found out that we had a misunderstanding. Eventually, a few minutes, we discovered the question she wanted to ask was quite different then the one I was hearing. I could see the frustration in her building in the beginning.

I have never really figured out how to understand my ex and I believe things like this are the major reason. I oftentimes thought ex didn't know what she wanted to communicate or how.

[Matt]

You don't know why it happened so ask each kid why. It may not work the first time but if they keep talking things may become clearer for them and you. It's something I had to learn. Listen and not interrupt. The first few times I didn't do that and tried to fix it. Over time their stories became more insightful and that was when we could talk about it.

I am a high teacher. One time many moons ago I had a girl ask me a question. It was algebra. Math has very specific answers to certain questions. I answered her question. She didn't understand and asked the same exact question. I answered the same question with the same answer. I couldn't think of another way to answer her question properly and then explained that. I pointed out what my interpretation of her question was and we both found out that we had a misunderstanding. Eventually, a few minutes, we discovered the question she wanted to ask was quite different then the one I was hearing. I could see the frustration in her building in the beginning.

I have never really figured out how to understand my ex and I believe things like this are the major reason. I oftentimes thought ex didn't know what she wanted to communicate or how.

Yeah, we'll talk about it this evening.  Ex sent me an e-mail asking me to pick them up after school and keep them - she's obviously eager to have them out of her house.  I texted both kids and they're good with that.

Both kids are pretty open with me.  D17 sometimes is too busy to communicate much, and then gets upset or tired, and it all comes out in tears.  S15 doesn't do that - he talks when he's ready to.  I usually know what's going on with both of them, when they're with me.  It's when I travel that things go bad.

Maybe I should do a better job of talking with both of them when I'm on the road.  I did that when they were small... .

[david]

Maybe talking to them before you leave and pointing out the pattern. If they see it before it happens they may be able to handle things better. It may take a few times before it sinks in.

[Matt]

Maybe talking to them before you leave and pointing out the pattern. If they see it before it happens they may be able to handle things better. It may take a few times before it sinks in.

Yeah, we've had these conversations a few times, but I'm sure more is needed.  I don't want to dump it all on them - they're good kids and it's not their fault I have to travel, not their fault they have to go back and forth between homes, and not their fault their mom acts like she does.  But they are old enough to be responsible for their own behavior, and in my home they are.

I'll spend some time with each of them this week.  I may be able to take S15 with me on a short trip soon - he's been asking when he can visit his brother and it might work out next week.  D17 will be fine while we're gone.

[sanemom]

It sounds like you are handling it well.  I would imagine that D17 will be more quickly able to figure things out... .she is a verbal female and older.  Self awareness would come more quickly. 

I agree with David--keep asking them what started it.  Ask them what was going on five minutes before the conversation that led up to the fight.  Maybe even have them recreate it.  If they can start recognizing better what is going on around them that may trigger them to act this way, they will be better able to prevent it.

[Free One]

My thoughts as to why:

Maybe they are triggered at mom's house, causing them to not be able to tolerate even the slightest slights.

Maybe one or both are lonely at mom's and don't have the skills to ask for loving attention from each other (ugh! could you imagine a 15 year-old-boy telling his big sis he's lonely?), so negative attention becomes better than none.

Maybe one is jealous of mom's attention for other, and acts out.

Maybe fighting with each other is their coping mechanism.

[Matt]

It sounds like you are handling it well.  I would imagine that D17 will be more quickly able to figure things out... .she is a verbal female and older.  Self awareness would come more quickly. 

I agree with David--keep asking them what started it.  Ask them what was going on five minutes before the conversation that led up to the fight.  Maybe even have them recreate it.  If they can start recognizing better what is going on around them that may trigger them to act this way, they will be better able to prevent it.

Yeah, I'll do this.  We're all busy during the week but we'll have some time to talk over the weekend.

[Matt]

My thoughts as to why:

Maybe they are triggered at mom's house, causing them to not be able to tolerate even the slightest slights.

Maybe one or both are lonely at mom's and don't have the skills to ask for loving attention from each other (ugh! could you imagine a 15 year-old-boy telling his big sis he's lonely?), so negative attention becomes better than none.

Maybe one is jealous of mom's attention for other, and acts out.

Maybe fighting with each other is their coping mechanism.

Yeah, I think these reasons are all more-or-less on target.

I've noticed that all my kids (S15, D17, SD24, SS36) show some of their mom's unusual behaviors.  For example, they're all afraid of bugs - none of them can just stay calm and deal with it - when they see a bug of any kind they get upset and want me to take care of it, like touching a bug will hurt them somehow.

And more important stuff, like coping with stress by lashing out at others, and avoiding responsibility.  Since we separated - over 5 years - I've worked with the younger kids on this stuff, and also with their older brother - SD24 has been away at school and I don't see improvement in her.  The younger kids and their older brother all understand these issues fairly well, but it's a continuing struggle - behaviors learned from birth til 8 or 10 or older are hard to change.

Update:

Report cards - D17's just slightly disappointing but she'll get it together.  S15's significantly below what he's capable of.

So we'll also be discussing this weekend whether he needs to give up extracurricular activities, and/or TV/computer/phone, so he can focus better on school.

My thinking is, the activities are important for his social development, but he needs to put school first and set aside other stuff - TV etc.  If he can do this on the honor system, great - that will be best.  But I'll check with his teachers in a couple of weeks and see if his work has improved, and if not, maybe it will be the Dad system.

His mom's contribution to this discussion was to suggest that we have his IQ tested.  I'm OK with that, but I think it's irrelevant - I know he's capable of doing the work, and he agrees with that, so whatever number comes back, it won't change anything - just a distraction from the real issue, which is doing the work.

Both kids go to a very good school which gives lots of homework.  So a big part of this is helping them see how the work they do now will give them more choices later - what college to go to, what jobs they can get, etc.  Plus structure to keep them focused - D17 is pretty good about that but S15 is easily distracted - he comes to tell me about something funny he saw online when he's supposed to be doing homework.  So I'm pretty sure he can do a lot better if he gets focused.  The question is whether he can and will do that on his own, or whether I'll have to take away the internet, phone etc. to reduce the distractions.