Couldn't sleep, weighing psych eval...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I'm back to being terrified.  My kids are so sweet and little.  I am always scared when BPDstbx-husband has them.  He only has them twice a month.  Lawyers tell me that if I get a psych/custody eval, that's probably the best I get anyway.  So I have not asked for one.

But I get scared that someday something will happen and I'll wish I hadn't balked and wimped out.  I feel like I'd like an expert to evaluate him.

What are my fears?  Some of you have read them.  Hubby hasn't done anything physical.  But when he gets triggered, he can't help his actions.  He has canceled their necessary doctor's appointents even after I rescheduled 3x to satisfy him.  Last year he put our sweet little baby on the edge of a bed to scare me, then on the floor.  More recently, he told me she was always throwing up in the car and I needed to give her Benadryl for each visit.  I stood up to him and said it wasn't true (it's not) and he dropped the whole thing, but not after pushing me for days to give it to her.  He also "forgets" things.  He asked me for the Bena dryl, but he's supposed to have some at home for our other child anyway, so that concerns me also. 

I think I may have some guilt over pushing him to have kids.  Now I feel like, I have to do the best I can as a mom and at least know how far his issues go.  I selfishly had them and now I have to do what I can.

Even though nothing major has happened, I'm considering hiring an expert for a custody/pscyh eval.  Yes, it will cost $10k or more total for a good one.  I barely have it.  I am just wondering if I will be scared for ever if I don't.  I will wish I had.  Of course, I may be acting out of fear and guilt.

My lawyer is sick of hearing me go back and forth on this.  When I floated the idea, she said she would hesitate because he has so little parenting time now.  She feels like I can control the situation a bit now.  On the other hand, she said, if I am scared all the time, maybe I should do it.  She wasn't firm about it.  I wish she was. 

My therapist said I could hold off until he really gives her Benad ryl or something like that.  Experts I talk to seem split down the middle.

Once the divorce is final there is a higher standard to meet to get a psych eval, so that's why I feel I have to decide now, while I still can.  Ugh, I'm so tense about this.

[momtara]

I'm back to being terrified.  My kids are so sweet and little.  I am always scared when BPDstbx-husband has them.  He only has them twice a month.  Lawyers tell me that if I get a psych/custody eval, that's probably the best I get anyway.  So I have not asked for one.

But I get scared that someday something will happen and I'll wish I hadn't balked and wimped out.  I feel like I'd like an expert to evaluate him.

What are my fears?  Some of you have read them.  Hubby hasn't done anything physical.  But when he gets triggered, he can't help his actions.  He has canceled their necessary doctor's appointents even after I rescheduled 3x to satisfy him.  Last year he put our sweet little baby on the edge of a bed to scare me, then on the floor.  More recently, he told me she was always throwing up in the car and I needed to give her Benadryl for each visit.  I stood up to him and said it wasn't true (it's not) and he dropped the whole thing, but not after pushing me for days to give it to her.  He also "forgets" things.  He asked me for the Bena dryl, but he's supposed to have some at home for our other child anyway, so that concerns me also. 

I think I may have some guilt over pushing him to have kids.  Now I feel like, I have to do the best I can as a mom and at least know how far his issues go.  I selfishly had them and now I have to do what I can.

Even though nothing major has happened, I'm considering hiring an expert for a custody/pscyh eval.  Yes, it will cost $10k or more total for a good one.  I barely have it.  I am just wondering if I will be scared for ever if I don't.  I will wish I had.  Of course, I may be acting out of fear and guilt.

My lawyer is sick of hearing me go back and forth on this.  When I floated the idea, she said she would hesitate because he has so little parenting time now.  She feels like I can control the situation a bit now.  On the other hand, she said, if I am scared all the time, maybe I should do it.  She wasn't firm about it.  I wish she was. 

My therapist said I could hold off until he really gives her Benad ryl or something like that.  Experts I talk to seem split down the middle.

Once the divorce is final there is a higher standard to meet to get a psych eval, so that's why I feel I have to decide now, while I still can.  Ugh, I'm so tense about this.

[livednlearned]

I debated whether to respond to this, but here I am so guess which way I went 

I dithered because you're asking for help with your case and I see something else going on, and you're not really asking for feedback about that. And sometimes hearing stuff when you aren't ready, or when you're sick with worry can feel unsupportive. I hope you know I care about you and what you're going through -- I've been there. My T was pretty tough with me, and it helped me get through some extremely toxic moments, and while I was mad at her at the time, looking back I can see how important it was. So in that spirit... .

Even though nothing major has happened, I'm considering hiring an expert for a custody/pscyh eval.  Yes, it will cost $10k or more total for a good one.  I barely have it.  I am just wondering if I will be scared for ever if I don't.  I will wish I had.  Of course, I may be acting out of fear and guilt.

My lawyer is sick of hearing me go back and forth on this.  When I floated the idea, she said she would hesitate because he has so little parenting time now.  She feels like I can control the situation a bit now.  On the other hand, she said, if I am scared all the time, maybe I should do it.  She wasn't firm about it.  I wish she was. 

My therapist said I could hold off until he really gives her Benad ryl or something like that.  Experts I talk to seem split down the middle.

Once the divorce is final there is a higher standard to meet to get a psych eval, so that's why I feel I have to decide now, while I still can.  Ugh, I'm so tense about this.

Who in your life made you doubt yourself? What happened when you made a decision that was yours, one that no one helped you make? What bad thing happened? Who in your life do you think you can trust, but don't, not really? Who in your life didn't want you to be independent?

Being stuck on this is about debilitating codependence. You don't have control over him. You don't have control over the courts. This is an incredibly anxiety-producing situation, and believe me, I do understand the worry, and the fear, and the guilt. My hunch is that the fixation on this is about something bigger than whether to get a custody eval or not.

You really, really need to figure out the deeper codependent stuff, momtara. Dive into that darkness. Stop focusing on him. Because the other side of this decision, and what you are hinting at with the description of your lawyer being sick of hearing you talk about this, and your therapist placating you, is that you're at risk of drawing attention to your own issues. Kids fall from the monkey bars at the playground at school and get hurt. They take drugs when they're adolescents that can put them in the hospitalize. They drink and drive. They have unprotected sex. They might get molested by someone their parents thought they could trust. Bad things happen, even to good kids with fantastic parents. Even if you reduce the time your kids spend with him, the courts are not likely to eliminate the time with him completely. Even 16 hours a month, which is what N/BPDx has with S12, there is potential for harm.

For a moment, look at how you are fixating on this, and the effect it's having on your health, your sleep, and probably the quality time with your girls. That's what codependence is costing you. Most codependents are world-class worriers, so you're going to find a lot of people here who will sympathize with the dilemma you face, and many of us will feel helpless that we can't make this decision for you, or fix you, or rescue you. Make a decision and then move on.

Figure out what the stuckness is about. Because when you do, the alternative is some pretty rock-solid peace of mind. Letting go of control feels awesome. If you think worrying is addictive, wait until you discover being in the moment.

Hubby hasn't done anything physical.

Also, I'm just going to say this, and hope you know I'm aware of this stuff because I struggle with similar types of things: You need to stop calling him hubby. Hubby is a term of endearment for someone who doesn't do this:

He has canceled their necessary doctor's appointents even after I rescheduled 3x to satisfy him.  Last year he put our sweet little baby on the edge of a bed to scare me, then on the floor.  More recently, he told me she was always throwing up in the car and I needed to give her Benadryl for each visit.  I stood up to him and said it wasn't true (it's not) and he dropped the whole thing, but not after pushing me for days to give it to her.  He also "forgets" things.  He asked me for the Bena dryl, but he's supposed to have some at home for our other child anyway, so that concerns me also. 

If you want to call him husband until the divorce is final, ok. But for you, maybe start calling him your ex, or your soon-to-be-ex, or the father of your children. I know it seems like a small thing, but calling him "hubby" is symbolizing something deeper you need to address.

It's possible that the fixation on the custody evaluation and the difficulty accepting the end of your marriage are related.

[KateCat]

momtara, I think you've even said it yourself. On November 18 you wrote: "I probably will still pretend I'm married after I'm divorced."

That sounds like a path way too painful for you and your children.

[MammaMia]

momtara

I agree with the others that you need to separate emotionally from your soon-to-be ex.  You have spent years taking care of him in a very co-dependent way.  It is time now to focus on yourself and your children. You CAN be an effective, loving single parent. Do you have friends and family to help support you?

If you feel you need a psych evaluation to be sure your h is fit to continue to parent your children, then do it.  If you want a psych eval to save him from himself, then don't.  

You have bonded your total identity to being married.  There are many things in life that are worse than being divorced.  As a single person, he has the right to move on and so do you.  You will always have a relationship because he is the father of your children, but you will have no control over what he does.  You need to understand this.  If he moves on and you don't, you are setting yourself and your children up for a world of self-imposed pain.

Divorce is like a death in the family for many.  Get some help to deal with it.  :)o not take sole responsibility for it ... .it takes two people to make a marriage and two people to decide it is over for whatever reason. Anything else is very unhealthy for everyone.

Many things to think about.  Stay strong.  You know in your heart what is right.

[momtara]

Getting the eval isn't about saving him.  It sure wouldn't do that.  

My hesitation is more that it may not make a difference, and just cause more problems.  The point in favor of it is that it may give me peace of mind, and protect the kids in some way just by documenting his issues.

I know I am codependent and have to overcome that, but when it comes down to it, I am worried about this because it's a big decision that has implications.  

And yes it is related to the end of the divorce.  Once I am divorced, it is harder to do this.  I have a limited time to decide.  Wish I had longer but the final hearing is approaching rapidly.

[livednlearned]

Getting the eval isn't about saving him.  It sure wouldn't do that.  

My hesitation is more that it may not make a difference, and just cause more problems for everyone.  The point in favor of it is that it may give me peace of mind, and protect the kids in some way just by documenting his issues.

I know I am codependent and have to overcome that, but when it comes down to it, I am worried about this because it's a big decision that has implications.  

And yes it is related to the end of the divorce.  Once I am divorced, it is harder to do this.  I have a limited time to decide.  Wish I had longer but the final hearing is approaching rapidly.

By saying that the fretting over the custody evaluation is related to issues about letting go of your marriage -- I meant something different than just the urgency of the deadline and losing an opportunity to ask for a CE. I meant that your anxiety about losing someone (your husband) causes your general anxiety to increase. About everything. People with BPD get triggered. So do nons. Negative feelings about loss (of control, or of people) need to be felt. Lots of us never did that, or it wasn't safe to do that, so we have to learn how to do it as adults. You may be shifting your negative feelings about loss (of your ex) to an increase need for control over custody because you can't tolerate the intensity of the negative feelings. It is legitimate to feel anxiety right now, and to feel worry about the safety of your children. That's not the point. The point is that you are transferring other feelings you don't want to experience and piling them on other areas, because you don't want to confront the feelings of loss. That's what codependent people do. We obsess about controlling external circumstances because it is too painful to feel the super deep negative feelings. Anxiety is a negative feeling, but it's a form of imagination. Grieve the loss of your marriage, momtara.

Here's another way to think of it: you are terrified that he will harm the girls. You are terrified that you will feel guilt and fear for the rest of your life if something happens to them and you didn't get the CE. So say you order a custody evaluation. The CE says that the father is a harm to himself and the children, but recommends keeping the same visitation schedule. How does that choice, and that outcome, help you moderate the fear you have that he will harm your girls? Say they find no evidence that the father is a harm to himself or the kids. Does that help you moderate your fears?

Do you see? The CE stuff may be a symptom of the way you are managing negative feelings right now. Those feelings are real, and they are valid, but you may be seeking external solutions for them when the real solution is to dig deep.

I'm going to be really honest with you -- and since I'm just some anonymous person on the Internet, I recommend that you check this out with your lawyer and therapist, or people who can be direct with you -- your anxiety level about this may register high enough that a CE evaluator will have cause to worry about you. Custody evaluators deal with abuse cases we can't even imagine. You will have to convince someone who hears about child molestation, incest, rape, physical abuse, serious neglect, and persistent dangerous circumstances to children that you have cause for concern. Your husband wants to give your child Benadryl and he keeps canceling the doctor appointments. He put her on the edge of the bed and she almost fell off. There is a chance the CE will be thinking, ... .and?

Your ex's instances of abuse may not appear during the evaluation. If they don't appear, they don't count. If he isn't triggered by the CE, maybe they just see a loving dad with two young children, struggling like any single parent would. Then the CE talks to you. They find you excessively worried about things they can't authenticate. They wonder why you are trying to limit the time the father spends with the children when he appears to be doing his best. Then what?

Another scenario is that you and your ex get MMPIs and his issues are cancelled out by your issues. You tell the court you are in therapy for treatment, and he tells the court he is in therapy for treatment. So the court say, Ok keep doing what you're doing. Court, as others here have pointed out, does not enforce therapy.

[momtara]

Thank you.  I understand a little more now about where you're coming from.

As for the comments on the CE, my lawyer just doesn't take the time to explain stuff like that.

I actually can prove a lot of his behavior, and there's more to it, but I see where you're coming from.

You said, "The CE says that the father is a harm to himself and the children, but recommends keeping the same visitation schedule. How does that choice, and that outcome, help you moderate the fear you have that he will harm your girls?"

It actually would help.  Because a professional dug deep and decided that he  is not enough of a threat that he can't continue the regular visitation.  I would at least have had someone other than me looking at this question and deciding what's appropriate.

Now, if there was an outcome saying I'm loony, that wouldn't be a good outcome.  But evaluations make everyone nervous.

[livednlearned]

You said, "The CE says that the father is a harm to himself and the children, but recommends keeping the same visitation schedule. How does that choice, and that outcome, help you moderate the fear you have that he will harm your girls?"

It actually would help.  Because a professional dug deep and decided that he  is not enough of a threat that he can't continue the regular visitation.  I would at least have had someone other than me looking at this question and deciding what's appropriate.

Now, if there was an outcome saying I'm loony, that wouldn't be a good outcome.  But evaluations make everyone nervous.

I was using those examples to illustrate a bigger point, which is that the CE doesn't give you control of the outcome. There are so many variables. Any number of other outcomes are likely. Not having control creates anxiety. Which makes us want more control. Custody evaluations work for some members on this board, and don't for others. Same for parenting coordinators. Same for GALs.

I went through this, which is why I spot it in you 

My L really wanted me to get a PC. It took me 9 months before I signed the PC order. The anxiety ate me alive.

Your situation is a little different because your L is not recommending things one way or another.

My lawyer is sick of hearing me go back and forth on this.  When I floated the idea, she said she would hesitate because he has so little parenting time now.  She feels like I can control the situation a bit now.  On the other hand, she said, if I am scared all the time, maybe I should do it.  She wasn't firm about it.  I wish she was. 

She is telling you that if the issue is about having control, go with what you have now. When you continue to press her, she then says: Ok, get a CE if you are scared all the time. Your thinking about this issue is making your L respond in ways that are about managing your emotions. She isn't giving you counsel about legal strategy, she recognizes that you are asking for something she can't give you. She's saying, Do it if it makes you feel better.

I'm trying to say that if you get the CE and don't figure out the underlying emotional stuff, the CE may just be the first of many things that you focus your anxiety on. Regardless of what you do about the CE, you're going to have to figure out a long-term strategy for dealing with that anxiety because it's toxic.

Might be too hard to think about that now.

[momtara]

That makes sense.  I am understanding more about what you are saying now.

It took you 9 months?  Good to know.  thank you.

[Matt]

Wow, really good discussion, and I'm glad LnL and everybody have gotten to the bigger issues that will help a lot over the long term.

I'm going to narrow in on just the legal choice you face - your strategy for right now.

I think in most cases the right strategy is "let the sunshine in".  By that I mean, get all the relevant information out on the table - everything that shows the court what has happened and what is best for the kids short-term and long-term.  And objective psych evals for both parents are a big part of that.

Why psych evals?  Because kids raised by someone with an untreated disorder are at much higher risk for pretty much any problem you can name - substance abuse, depression, eating disorders, etc.  Not just how they're doing now, with each parent, but the long-term impact of being raised by someone who has a problem and isn't getting help.  Objective psych evals are the only way to get that critical information out in the open so it can be taken into account.

Why "objective"?  Because someone with a personality disorder or another kind of psychological problem can often fool even an "expert".  Objective tests, like the MMPI-2, can uncover problems that won't be clear in an interview.  They aren't too expensive - the MMPI-2 costs $500 each - and they add critical information you can't get any other way.

Why both parents?  Because you're more likely to get that order from the court than if you try to get just the other party evaluated, and not yourself.  Then you have to first prove there is a problem - it's chicken-and-egg - without the MMPI-2 you can't prove there's a problem, and the court won't order the test.  So you say "both parents" and just explain that you have some concerns and you want the court to have all the relevant information.

But what if your results aren't perfect - what then?  Well they won't be - almost nobody's is.  Your results will surely show something that you can work on - mine did.  So you accept it and ask the CE to suggest your next steps - ours told me, "Keep seeing your counselor since that seems to be helping, and watch out for drinking since that's a big risk for you." - so that's what I did.  By accepting the results and following whatever recommendation you get, you'll look great.  Your stbX, on the other hand, is likely to argue or deny, and that will show what he's made of too.

$10,000 sounds high.  Our CE cost $5,000, plus the cost of the tests ($500 each).  Ask for the cost to be split between the parties.  Give strong reasons why - it's OK to cite some examples showing why you are concerned but don't try to "prove" that there is a "problem" with the other party, just give some reasons why you have concerns, and emphasize that you are looking to get the best custody situation that will benefit the kids long-term.

If you decide not to do it, that's valid too - it's your call and there's no one-size-fits-all "best" decision.  My encouragement to you is to adopt the "sunshine" strategy - all relevant information out on the table for the court to consider - and the MMPI-2 or another objective evaluation can be a very important part of that.  (The MMPI-2 led to my wife's diagnosis, by the way.  Mine wasn't perfect but I just accepted the recommendation I got - my wife argued about hers - and it helped settle our case in an OK way.)

[livednlearned]

I'm sort of responding to your collective posts about this, synthesizing it here: your L says you already have majority parenting time, and isn't thinking a CE will do much, so she shifts the decision to you, and now you have to weigh conflicting advice. On one hand you have your L saying nah, don't do it, unless it makes you feel better, while others, like Matt, are saying better to do it. You're having a hard time deciding which authority/voice of reason to listen to... .is that accurate to say?

If so, then let's see if it helps to make your choices as clear as possible. Getting a CE will:

A) make things better, if not now then for the future in case something really bad does happen; or

B) do nothing, because the results might not be conclusive enough to change anything, at least for now; or

C) make it worse, by costing a lot of money, finding nothing in your ex, and potentially bringing your issues into the light, whereas until now they haven't been up for discussion.

I believe, when making decisions, we should take into account our emotional well-being, and not pretend that everything is entirely rational. And since this decision is triggering so much anxiety for you, it seems like A) is the scenario you should strategize for. It's possible that the results might not be conclusive (B), and it's possible that the evaluation will report stuff about you (C), but at this point, it's a gamble.

Meaning, you stand to gain more from A than from B, or C, all things being equal (and all things being a gamble). Because your emotional health matters. It should be a significant part of any decision we make.

I think I wrote this before in another post -- if you do go with A, see if you can choose the CE. Find out who the court recommends, and learn what you can about that person and the process. Find out if the CE process automatically includes an objective psych eval like Matt mentions. 

[Matt]

I think I wrote this before in another post -- if you do go with A, see if you can choose the CE. Find out who the court recommends, and learn what you can about that person and the process. Find out if the CE process automatically includes an objective psych eval like Matt mentions.

I'll just continue to discuss these specific issues, because LnL and everybody are doing a great job opening up the larger issues... .

The way it worked for me was:

* First we filed a motion to have the court appoint a CE.  My situation was kind of like yours - I was convinced my wife had some serious problems but I couldn't "prove" it.  So the motion said "Psych evals for both parents."

* I neglected to say "objective evaluation" or "MMPI-2".  Whoops!

* The other side opposed it, saying "You can't prove my client has a problem."

* My lawyer talked to her lawyer and said, "Yeah, actually we can, if it comes to it.  We'll subpoena people who will tell the court stuff, and the court will decide.  Is that what you want?"  And we told her lawyer who we would subpoena.  Her lawyer advised her to accept the CE motion - not to fight it.

* Then the lawyers talked and agreed on a CE - a psychologist (not a lawyer!) who did this a lot.

* The CE was appointed by the court based on both attorneys' recommendations.

* The CE said, "I'd like you both to take the MMPI-2."

I would certainly suggest putting "objective psych evals for both parents" in the CE motion - don't leave it to chance.

Your lawyer should know who would be a good CE - a psychologist (not a lawyer!) who has done it a lot.

All this might work differently where you live - your lawyer should know.  If you can talk more with her, and get her to slow down and explain how it works - she should give you examples from her experience - then you'll feel more comfortable with the process because you'll understand the steps.

One reason (not the only reason for sure!) that the legal process is so stressful is that we don't understand it, and many attorneys don't realize they need to explain the process to their clients.  If you can get your attorney to just spend a little time explaining the whole process to you - what the steps are and what happens at each step - then your anxiety might come down just a little, and it might be a little easier to make decisions.

[ForeverDad]

I had a CE and it was done by a child psychologist and according to my lawyer very highly respected by the court.  As I look back I feel that was my lawyer's single best choice overall, so much of the rest of my divorce process felt passive or not assertive enough.  I recall at one session our evaluator said he would be leaving to go lecture downtown at the local university hospital.  That made me feel good.  His rates were low but it went higher and longer when my ex stated she had to write her tests in her 'native' language.  She was born here but grew up half here and half there.  (She had previously taken classes and been certified to be a medical and legal translator.  Go figure.  )  So our 4 months stretched to 5 months while CE got a translator.

However, when we went back to court the report was considered by the main judge with the lawyers but even though the report recommended she immediately lose her temporary custody, the only action taken was to move on to the next step.  A few months later we went to Trial where the final report was entered into the record.  Ex decided, after 2 years of delays and nonresponse, to finally say she wanted to settle.  That meant that the report was sealed and never used.  Then a year and a half later when Shared Parenting did fail as expected and I filed Change of Circumstances the magistrate ruled that the CE was by that time 'stale' and would not be unsealed.

So while a CE is good, if what is written there does not get onto the record, it will be hard to reference it later.  Also, there's a risk that even if it gets on the record, it can be referenced later but (as in my case) may still be considered stale or out of date.

Overall, I think a CE is almost required, especially if the other parent is very possessive, entitled, or acting out to an extreme.  As Matt wrote, SUNSHINE is good in cases like this, judges are too likely to consider both parents equally good (or bad) unless there is paperwork to (1) inform the judge otherwise and/or (2) be used powerfully by you and your lawyer.

In my area a psych eval is only about mental issues and not how they might affect custody and parenting.  I did have a psych eval in the early days, my ex was ordered to have one too but I never heard whether she ever did it.  Done in a couple hours by a graduate studetn at the county mental health agency, I wasn't impressed.  It was valid so far as it went - my interviewer concluded I had anxiety - but didn't go far enough.

[momtara]

Ack, just after I had decided NOT to do it!

My reasons are:

1)  In the end, what I'd hope for is to get a) an accurate accounting of my stbx's issues and how bad they are, and b) maybe supervised parenting time for a year or two for the baby.  But... . 1) The therapists don't offer diagnoses (as far as I know) and 2) I actually don't think the baby is in danger in the near future, as stbx takes her to his parents'.  I could be wrong about that, though.  One never can tell.

In cases where a father hurt the children, it seems like he did so right after supervised visitation ended, or when he found out it was about to start.

2)  It will be murder on my emotional health to do this.  Anything associated with court makes me frightened.  And this will be a months long process.  That said, it's better to get it over with, and I would not let 2) alone be the deciding factor.

3)  It's a lot of work for something that won't change much, from what I've heard.

4)  There is always the small small chance that, being that this is court, this could all backfire on me somehow.  I am not worried about them finding something wrong with me (heck, yes, I'm anxious right now - big whoop).  I could prove many of my stbx's issues.  But it could backfire in other ways - maybe just recommending that stbx get more time with the kids in 2 years, or something.  Who knows.  

But now, reading the new responses, I'm reminded that it could still bring in the light, and maybe I shouldn't back down.

Court is like 2 weeks away, though, and with the holidays, not sure I have much time to ask for an evaluation.

I think what I'm going to do is see what we agree on for the final divorce decree.  I am pushing for language that includes counseilng and for stbx to stay in his existing counseling.  If they refuse the language, then I'll tell them we want a psych/custody eval.

[momtara]

Also, as one therapist told me, he is "reactive."  If I am careful not to trigger him, he usually doesn't act badly.

The problem with that is that I can't guarantee I'll always act in ways that he likes.  So that is a concern.  If I do something one day that inadvertently pisses him off... .that could be an issue.  But I can cross that bridge when I come to it.  So far he hasn't gone completely off the deep end.

I can still get an evaluation after the divorce is final, but it requires a big change in circumstances. 

[livednlearned]

Also, as one therapist told me, he is "reactive."  If I am careful not to trigger him, he usually doesn't act badly.

The problem with that is that I can't guarantee I'll always act in ways that he likes.  So that is a concern.  If I do something one day that inadvertently pisses him off... .that could be an issue. 

That's the BPD - codependent dynamic in a nutshell. Is your T advising you to moderate your behavior so you don't trigger him?

[livednlearned]

I think what I'm going to do is see what we agree on for the final divorce decree.  I am pushing for language that includes counseilng and for stbx to stay in his existing counseling.  If they refuse the language, then I'll tell them we want a psych/custody eval.

I think that's the best way to strategize. Come up with contingencies for yourself. If X happens, I will do Y. I will only agree to A if they agree to B and C together.

People often recommend the strategy that worked for them, and as you've learned, everyone has different opinions on what works and what doesn't. There's this concept called "satisficing" which is when you have all the information you need to make a decision. It just means you stop looking for new information and accept you have enough to make a good decision. If you keep looking for more information, it will feel exasperating because you don't need more info, you need to focus on applying what info you do have to your decision.

[momtara]

Yes, you are right livedandlearned - at some point I just have to decide.

My therapist did advise that in a way, and I kind of disagreed.  But he said his point is that I'll have to be coparenting with my x forever, one way or another, so I will have to figure out how to deal with him.  Can't completely stop walking on eggshells, I guess, but nor do I want to be scared.

[livednlearned]

Yes, you are right livedandlearned - at some point I just have to decide.

My therapist did advise that in a way, and I kind of disagreed.  But he said his point is that I'll have to be coparenting with my x forever, one way or another, so I will have to figure out how to deal with him.  Can't completely stop walking on eggshells, I guess, but nor do I want to be scared.

Over time, if the stove burns when you touch it, you stop touching the stove. You start looking to see if all the signs are there, then you adjust your behavior based on that. Lights are off? Probably safe. Lights are on, element is red, feels hot standing close, better not touch it.

It's really hard when the divorce stuff is active because family court is so opaque and scary. If we just left our spouses and packed up our kids and moved away, it might be easier to figure out a plan for coping. Court keeps us unnaturally alert a lot longer than we might otherwise. I could never tell if court was protecting me or putting my hand near a hot stove.

I do think, though, that if you figure out how you're going to deal with your fears while the divorce is active, you can deal with anything. Overdoing the stove analogy here a bit much, but I'm the kind of person who needed my feet held to the coals to change my dynamic. I was such a basket case of fear and anxiety that I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown. You couldn't tell from the outside because I'm pretty awesome at bottling my emotions, but I was wired pretty tight. People can't live like that, not for long. Eventually you get sick, or have some kind of breakdown out of proportion to some small thing. And of course, I never asked for help, and people stopping offering, so then I was alone, trying to raise a man on my own, finding myself crying because I couldn't open a jar of tomato sauce.

[momtara]

So what's your advice, based on that?

[marbleloser]

If it were me,and I already had majority time and decision making authority,I'd save a CE for later down the line if needed. You can always ask for one later if STBX does something stupid.

[livednlearned]

So what's your advice, based on that?

About getting a CE? Or about managing your ex... .

For the CE, honestly, you hold the part of the decision-making piece that matters. Which is what is going to bring you peace of mind.

About managing your ex, the sooner you detach from him, the better for you and your kids. Really detach. Move all of your focus to you, you, you, you. And your kids. All of your strategies become about managing you. He is an obstacle. You manage yourself, your reactions, your thoughts, your feelings, and learn tactics and strategies from people here to help you maneuver around the obstacle. Anything less is just touching the stove. 

[momtara]

ok, thanks!

neither decision will bring me peace of mind.  hiring a CE would do it if it works out in my favor and gives a clear diagnosis of stbx, but there's clearly no guarantee of that.  I just have a feeling that there's a big chance that a month into it, I will wish I hadn't started it all.  I am going to be vigilant for now and see what happens.

having told my story to several lawyers, two forensic psych.s, and even bill eddy, these experts were all split down the middle.  if they had all urged me to get a ce/psych eval, I would have done it.  

I appreciate everyone's input, especially you, lived and learned.

I think we have all seen the coldness that comes over our BPD-x's.  luckily, many of you have not seen them express contempt toward the kids.  I have.  I have also seen him express love.  No way of telling where he would go if excessively triggered, and I don't know that an expert wants to predict that.  For now I'm just watching.

[livednlearned]

No way of telling where he would go if excessively triggered, and I don't know that an expert wants to predict that.  For now I'm just watching.

No way of telling, too, if he loses interest in parenting. It's a gender stereotype to say this, but it seems like there are far fewer BPD fathers who really want to be fully involved parents. They may fight like that's what they want, but when you look at the details, their actions don't add up. N/BPDx filed to have me removed as custodial parent, without asking to transfer primary custody to him. WTH? And even when he was deep in the fight, he never asked for what a normal parent would ask for: more time.

Illogical, this BPD stuff.

[momtara]

Yes, you make a point that many have made, too.  That he may just back off.  It's sad, because the kids love him and he has expressed a real love for them at times.  He also can't put their needs before his own.  When we first started the divorce, he indicated that if we divorced, he would hardly ever see them. 

In the last week, he has suddenly stopped calling them every night.  I have no idea why.  The older one has been asking to visit daddy for the last few days.

Maybe it breaks stbx's heart too much to know he can't be with them, due to his various issues, and he's just stepping away.  Maybe he's trying to confuse me.  I don't know.  But you are right:  He may just give up.

As much as I fear the kids being with him, I also know that it's not healthy for them never to see him, or to have him suddenly stop calling.  Oh well.  Our kids aren't the first kids to lose a father to divorce.

[KateCat]

When we first started the divorce, he indicated that if we divorced, he would hardly ever see them. 

In the last week, he has suddenly stopped calling them every night. 

Isn't your divorce final in the next week or so? It's kind of chilling, but maybe he is making good on his stated intentions.

[livednlearned]

As much as I fear the kids being with him, I also know that it's not healthy for them never to see him, or to have him suddenly stop calling.  Oh well.  Our kids aren't the first kids to lose a father to divorce.

The best way to support them is to let them have whatever feelings they have. If they feel sad they can't see him, validate those feelings.

I dated a bf a long time ago whose father stopped seeing him after the divorce. The father said it was too painful. Then he remarried and adopted the daughter of his new wife.

My bf's mother apparently kept telling bf "your father loves you." That was apparently deeply damaging to bf. He was so confused by that -- because he didn't feel loved by his dad, yet was told his dad did love him. Really messed him up.

It's hard to see our kids hurt so deeply, but protecting them from that hurt can really damage them. Seems counter-intuitive.

I know with S12, he used to be very psychosomatic. I didn't want him to be, so I would try and lighten things up. After learning about validation, I started to empathize with his feelings, even if I found what he was talking about to be trivial. That kid feels hurt if a leaf hits him. It took a long time for it to make a difference, but now, even though he is still a pretty sensitive guy, he just reports on it, and then moves on. Before, he would just keep escalating, trying to get validation until I gave it to him.

[momtara]

The whole thing may become irrelevant anyway.  Now, 2 weeks from the divorce, he is asking for more time with the kids in the final agreement!  Obviously wants to scare me out of questioning his mental health.  I will have to tell him that if he can't agree to some things, we'll have to get a psych eval.  (I asked in our final agreement for him to continue in counseling.  He is saying that shouldn't be in there.)

[livednlearned]

The whole thing may become irrelevant anyway.  Now, 2 weeks from the divorce, he is asking for more time with the kids in the final agreement!  Obviously wants to scare me out of questioning his mental health.  I will have to tell him that if he can't agree to some things, we'll have to get a psych eval.  (I asked in our final agreement for him to continue in counseling.  He is saying that shouldn't be in there.)

Telling pwBPD that they should do x if they don't want y to happen -- tends to trigger pretty predictable responses . Disregard for consequences that are harmful to them is like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

That's why the contingency strategizing is helpful.

.

If ex asks for more time, I will ask for the psych eval.

Sounds like you are thinking that way, and know what is likely to happen.