Are you a "healthy" Non? / Spectrum of Nons

[goldylamont]

Hi all, been meaning to post about this for a while. I wanted to explore the possibility and challenge the notion that anyone having a relationship with someone wBPD must be one or both of the following:

1) A Codependent person -- someone 'needy' of love in the romantic sense

2) Someone dealing with FO (Family of Origin) issues -- meaning that you are with a BPD because of traumatic child experiences that attract you to pwBPD.

First I want to make sure I'm respectful to each and everyone here when bringing up this topic. Yet I feel it's important and that we can all learn more about us 'nons' who may not have a full blown PD per se. It is my belief that not all nons are the same, that there is a full spectrum of nons just as there is a full spectrum of pwBPD. Some pwBPD are very high functioning and covert while others low functioning, obvious to others that there is an issue. In the same way I feel us nons also exist on a spectrum.

A few beliefs I've seen expressed here that I've had a different take on, when applying it to my own personal experience:

1) "If you've been in a r/s with a pwBPD, then you are unhealthy. Healthy people never get into these r/s." Or another variant on this: "Healthy people walk away from these r/s. If you didn't immediately leave then you must be codependent or attracted to pwBPD in some way"

2) "There is something inherent in you that attracts people with PDs to you. Most likely some childhood issue that you have yet to resolve. You attracted your BPDx to you because of something unhealthy about you."

After much self examination and meditation, I don't feel that I fit into this paradigm. Now, I do recognize reasons why I was in the r/s and why I stayed for a while, but I don't feel so much that I am a magnet for pwPD issues. Nor do I feel that in r/s that I am codependent on my partner.

So, I wanted to start a discussion to see if there were others who do not feel that they are codependent. Or that their childhoods have left wounds that make them attractive to pwBPD. My hunch is that the majority of people do not feel this way, however I wanted to see if there were others out there who can relate to my understanding myself as a mostly-healthy, not-codependant, but-still-with-some-issues-to-work-through type person 

[Take2]

Great posting... . I'm curious to read the replies on this one.

Me personally?  I do have a history of codependency in past relationships but not all.  But I don't have a history of childhood issues that left me with wounds such that I would seek out someone to fill that void.  I had a pretty normal, very happy childhood.  That said, my mom did have huge (understatement) mental issues that surfaced when I was in my 20s.  It was in my late 20s that the huge-ness of it really kicked in.  I thought it was just empty-nester type stuff for a long time but when it became out of control, that was clearly not the explanation.  

I actually had a memory occur to me when I was like 27 - of when I was 3 and my mom was hospitalized and no children were allowed to visit so my dad took us to her window one day.  I had blocked that out my entire life until then - so I asked my dad about it and he said he couldn't remember why she was there.   That's weird but not really all that unusual knowing my dad.  And given that I had blocked it out, I couldn't blame him for doing the same.

So - yes, I have tremendous curiosity about that - what happened?  did it actually affect me in my adulthood?

Or did the totally borderline-type behavior that came out of my mom in my mid to late 20s (she was in her 50s then) cause me to develop issues to then become attracted to someone like her now?  (I'm in my 40s).  I really don't think so.  (and aside - how did she NOT exhibit this behavior most of my life before then?  no she was not medicated, that's all another topic anyway).  

But then again... . I've never felt "content" in a r/s until this man.  So not fair.

And seriously so many unanswered questions to truly understand what made/makes me so attracted to someone who is so brutal.  

*** Had to modify this to say that after reading my own post, I suppose I fall into the less than completely healthy side of the spectrum... .  however signf closer to healthy now... .  still a work in progress... .

[Mutt]

2) Someone dealing with FO (Family of Origin) issues -- meaning that you are with a BPD because of traumatic child experiences that attract you to pwBPD.

I was adopted and I have issues with fear of abandonment and control.

I'm a care taker. I remember when I was very young soothing my younger brother when my adoptive mother died of cancer when I was 8 and my dad was not around much after she had passed away. When I first met my spouse, she was a single mom and I had wanted to help her. I felt sympathy for her due to that and the abusive partners she had in the passed.

I had boundary issues (work in progress). My BPD connected with that lonely boy inside. I had issues with self esteem, self worth (WIP).

Those are the issues that I can identify. I'm not sure if that quantifies as co-dependent, but I had always thought that I wasn't, although I've heard BPD relationships/non's coined as such often. I knew the relationship was not healthy and some of my dysfunctions attributed the attraction and r/s with a BPD. They do not attach themselves to just anyone.

[peacebaby]

Hi all, been meaning to post about this for a while. I wanted to explore the possibility and challenge the notion that anyone having a relationship with someone wBPD must be one or both of the following:

1) A Codependent person -- someone 'needy' of love in the romantic sense

2) Someone dealing with FO (Family of Origin) issues -- meaning that you are with a BPD because of traumatic child experiences that attract you to pwBPD.

I used to believe I didn't fit into those categories, but I know now that I do. Because the categories are not that strict. I used to think co-dependent people were sad, spineless people who couldn't stick up for themselves and let others treat them badly, so I didn't identify with that. However, I realized that my FOO taught me that, for me to feel okay, I had to make sure others were okay first, and that made *me* feel okay. So, if my "other" was someone with BPD, who was never okay, WOW fun. So I'm co-dependent but working hard on it with my new room mate--he's not my guest, he's my room mate.

The childhood experiences that prepare you for being with someone with BPD do not have to be traumatic. See above. Also, I had a troubled little brother who I helped navigate life for a long time--that wasn't traumatic, but it sure prepared me to be with someone with BPD. And then my mother, and my step mother, both seemed to have conditional love, so I was prepared to be loved or not depending on what someone else thought of my behavior. Oh and my dad's second wife, my stepmother, seems to have NPD--she hit me a couple times when I was a teenager, which taught me that sometimes when people get out of control and hit you, they still love you ha ha ha.

The fact is that people who are in good emotional shape, with no weird childhood crap, would not allow themselves to be treated the way everyone here has allowed themselves to be treated. I would never have imagined I'd let all that happen to me, but I did. i wasn't "that kind of person" but I was. I thought of myself as strong and brave, like I could fix her with my love, like I was strong enough to take all that abuse and remain intact. That's just not healthy thinking. Healthy thinking is "get away from crazy person who makes me feel bad."




The healthy folks who have relationships with BPD's usually get out fast and don't endure the kind of pain that brings people to this board.

[MrFox]

I would say I fit into both categories.  I have definite co-dependency issues.  I also never thought I did because I have always been the strong, confident type in my life.  In relationships I was the one who became the care-taker, the strong one.  Little did I realize that that very care-taking was my co-dependency.  I try to fix them, put their needs above mine, and suffer the emotional roller-coaster in silence.

As for the second, I was raised by a mother with BPD.  It definitely set me up for relationships with pwBPD.  I have dated two women who have been diagnosed and if I look at the rest, they showed signs if were not actually BPD.  Crazy was my normal, so I looked for that crazy. 

[peacebaby]

Oooh, I've got more non-traumatic events to share!  

I was brought up to be *extremely* polite. Polite to the effect that, if someone totally lost it in front of you, you weren't supposed to mention it--or if you were in terrible emotional pain, it was best to hide it. Those things weren't healthy, but lots of people learn them, and it sets us up to pretend things are okay when they're not, to endure the worst things because it would be RUDE not to.

Those of us who identify with the knight in shining armor thing like myself, we are so gallant, but we don't tend to think of ourselves first. Perhaps we romanticize crazy/sexy badboys/girls and it goes too far? Or believe in Romantic Love Conquering All *no matter what*. Or we identify with those fictional characters who take a lot of abuse in the name of love. Or we like a challenge and get sucked into something crazy... .

Again, not everyone with these childhood issues is set up to become involved with someone with BPD. But there's something in most of us here that didn't follow the instructions of the beautiful red flags with GET OUT NOW printed in huge red letters.

Something kept us there after we knew we were in something really crazy.

We did not take good enough care of our hearts.  

[goldylamont]

peacebaby, thanks for sharing your experience, please see my comments below:

I used to believe I didn't fit into those categories... .However, I realized that my FOO taught me that, for me to feel okay, I had to make sure others were okay first, and that made *me* feel okay.

Interesting. This is something I can't relate to from my childhood though. My mother, uncles, father, the elders in my life always taught me to stick up for myself. Never taught me to put others feelings before mine. Now, I was taught to be very respectful of others, taught to always treat people kindly and to share. And if I were to borrow something to return it in better condition than I received it. Especially was taught to respect my elders (and luckily they were all wise and deserving of respect).

But if someone were unhappy with me for no reason or I was being treated badly I was taught to fight back. I was taught that mentally I could rise above these situations. And also that if I felt threatened or bullied (when I was really young) that I had every right to fight back. I remember telling my mom about kids who were taunting me ruthlessly at school when I was in elementary--she told me the next time it happened that if anyone tried to rough me up that I should pick up the biggest stick close by and smack them as hard as I could--then see if they kept messing with me. It never came to this but I always felt empowered to stand up for myself and set boundaries. I was never taught to try and placate to other peoples issues.

The childhood experiences that prepare you for being with someone with BPD do not have to be traumatic.

This, I think is very true. I can see some aspects of my personality that played a role in my r/s with BPD, but no they weren't traumatic. For me ever since I remember I've really been attracted to beauty--beautiful music, art, nature, smells, sounds, fashion... .and yes, beautiful women  And I know one of the reasons why I felt so comfortable in my r/s with ex was because i was so physically attracted to her that i didn't feel the need to be with other women. But, the r/s was *never* just about her looks; I only really fell in love once I felt deep feelings from her being reciprocated and we established 'trust', however I realize this aspect of my personality (the love of beautiful things) and am currently assessing its role in my life.

The fact is that people who are in good emotional shape, with no weird childhood crap, would not allow themselves to be treated the way everyone here has allowed themselves to be treated.

Hmm, well how were you treated? I'm realizing that my r/s and the abuse I went through wasn't quite the same for me as for others. The r/s was always difficult, yes. But, I didn't stick around for multiple infidelities like some. We were together for 4 years and only had 1 time that we actually broke up, for about 2 weeks. I'm realizing that many here were with their ex for, say a year and went through like 8 breakups << this to me wouldn't even really be a 'real' r/s. I wouldn't consider this to be a real commitment if we were breaking up so much.

After our r/s ended, my ex immediately started a "r/s" with a guy that lasted for 4 months and they broke up like twice within this time; and she demolished him in the end. While both he and I met the same fate, I don't really give so much credit to this r/s as the one she had with me, or with previous bf's where things lasted longer and were more stable (relatively speaking). The guy she got with afterwards was seriously codependent--texting her constantly immediately saying he loved her, would do anything-kind-of-guy: the opposite of me in many regards. She went through him in a few months, got bored. Our r/s lasted longer, and I honestly don't think this had to do with me being more of a doormat. I think I was just stronger in my own resolve, able to remove myself from bad situations and take care of myself instead of getting too deep into her dramas. So while we did have our bad times, when I did retaliate it wasn't in such a way that would completely end the r/s.

I would never have imagined I'd let all that happen to me, but I did.

well, i can relate to this. i definitely put up with things before that i wouldn't now--but also most of this was me figuring things out; i didn't have an understanding of BPD at the time, why she was acting the ways she was. i never understood how abnormal things were until after i was out of the r/s.

I thought of myself as strong and brave, like I could fix her with my love, like I was strong enough to take all that abuse and remain intact. That's just not healthy thinking.

This is actually something really important that you brought up peacebaby. The fact that many nons believe they can fix their SO. I know clearly that I never deluded myself into thinking I could fix my ex. I was ignorant about PDs in general, but I never felt like I was going to fix any issues that she had. I would see and even talk to her about certain issues she had--low self esteem, past history of cutting (perhaps a decade prior), past history of depression, etc. I just took these things one day at a time. When I saw her I saw someone who had overcome a traumatic past. She wasn't continuing to cut and this had stopped (at least to my knowledge) years before we even met. The social anxieties we could discuss but this never made me want to break up with her; in and of itself it was manageable. So, from the beginning of our r/s I realized that she was someone who had dealt with/was dealing with some issues from a dark past, yet it seemed as if she were managing well. It took years and me breaking up a 2nd time to fully realize how bad she really could be.

The healthy folks who have relationships with BPD's usually get out fast and don't endure the kind of pain that brings people to this board.

And you know this because you've spoken with healthy folks who've been in these relationships? Or is this something that you've heard before here and are just repeating? I hope this doesn't sound too challenging as I really appreciate you sharing. But from what real life experience are you drawing this conclusion?

thanks for your reply!  

[Iamdizzy]

Good post. I think dealing with this is the crux of the issue.

For me, I am co-dependent and this wasn't the first time in a relationship that my co-dependent tendencies came into play. I thankfully do not have anything FO- related but I could say that I have a yearning for something real. I unfortuantely at times try to squeeze blood out of a rock which is obviously futile in the case of my BPD. In terms of the R/S, I felt such empathy towards her that I couldn't find the strength to leave. In addition, I was scared that she might inflict self harm if I left. She often would try to scare me with

"I was crying to much from our fights that I almost crashed 10 times driving home... .so don't fight with me something bad might happen to me" Little things like that scared me or "I am on the edge, don't push me" When I wanted to run or to get her out of my house, those words would come to my mind. This is a prime example of 'walking on eggshell' analogy.

I came from a loving home,,perhaps too loving. My parents growing up would break their backs to give my sister and I anything we ever wanted. I also grew up in a christian household so I got the whole 'gentlemen + morality' part drilled into my head. Be a gentlemen, be chivarlous, treat women with respect' granted these are essential but I guess I applied the same love and attention my parents had for each other into relationships.

I think a bigger question is "how do we stop being co-dependent"? Could any of us, have a relationship in which we don't emotionally depend on our partners?

For example, During the good parts of the relationship... .hearing my BPDex girlfriend say "love you have a great day my love see you later" would be my cup of coffee. It would get me going. I was dependent on her in making me feel good.

[Iamdizzy]

I forgot to add that while dating her, I have no clue whatsoever about BPD, NPD, HPD. I just thought she had severe PTSD from her childhood/past experiences. Hence my deep empathy.

[dontknow2]

So, I wanted to start a discussion to see if there were others who do not feel that they are codependent. Or that their childhoods have left wounds that make them attractive to pwBPD.

Well, not me. Definitely started off as codependent pre-therapy and childhood wounds attracted me. Interested to hear from others not in this boat though. 

[peacebaby]

Quote from: peacebaby on Today at 06:02:30 PM

The healthy folks who have relationships with BPD's usually get out fast and don't endure the kind of pain that brings people to this board.

And you know this because you've spoken with healthy folks who've been in these relationships? Or is this something that you've heard before here and are just repeating? I hope this doesn't sound too challenging as I really appreciate you sharing. But from what real life experience are you drawing this conclusion?

===================================

It sounds defensive, not challenging. I'm almost 50 and I've had a lot of life experience, and I've been around these boards for more than 6 years now. I really used to feel what you feel, that you're not as unhealthy as everyone else here, that somehow you are different, that it was just chance that got you into and kept you in a 4 year relationship with someone with BPD.

And perhaps you're correct and you are healthier than everyone here.

Perhaps the abuse you endured, which you call abuse, was somehow not abuse? Healthy people do not stay with people who are abusing them. I don't have to have special credentials to say that.

I wanted to see if there were others out there who can relate to my understanding myself as a mostly-healthy, not-codependant, but-still-with-some-issues-to-work-through type person

For the record, I totally relate to your above statement. I'm mostly healthy with issues to work on.

But you wanted to hear from the people on this board who don't feel they're at all co-dependent and who don't feel something in their past contributed to their staying with someone with an abusive mental illness. I shall back out now and wait for those people to give you the kind of response you're seeking.

[goldylamont]

It sounds defensive, not challenging. I'm almost 50 and I've had a lot of life experience, and I've been around these boards for more than 6 years now. I really used to feel what you feel, that you're not as unhealthy as everyone else here, that somehow you are different, that it was just chance that got you into and kept you in a 4 year relationship with someone with BPD.

Booyah! Thank you peacebaby! I'm in my late 30s and I want you to know that I consider what you are sharing as wisdom which equals knowledge X time. You've had more life experience than I so I so appreciate hearing it.

However you put bold marks around "*kept you in* a 4 year relationship"--well, I never felt that I was kept in the relationship at all. I ended it before much of the 'abuse' I talk about here started. Really, what tore me apart so much was that after I ended the r/s it felt like it was over before I wanted it to be. I didn't want to break up with her at all; I wanted to build a life with her--but something inside me told me it was necessary for both of us to separate. I held onto a naive notion afterwards that perhaps we could be apart, learn and grow and maybe be back together one day. But she just got worse, treating the men and women friends after me even worse. And seeing her behaviors worsen afterwards made the pain of separating so much more difficult. What I'm realizing is that much of the bad memories and hurt I felt were due to things that happened *after* I broke up with her and started seeing a side of this person that wasn't fully out in the open before. Oh, it was there, but not to this degree. Well, I see it now... .

Perhaps the abuse you endured, which you call abuse, was somehow not abuse? Healthy people do not stay with people who are abusing them. I don't have to have special credentials to say that.

This is definitely something to think about. I never referred to the issues I had with BPDx as "abusive" until a full year after leaving the r/s and finding out about BPD. I felt like I was being screwed over; and was shocked at the lies I was hearing she was telling but it never occurred to me that I was being "abused". Maybe me saying she was abusive to me is a cop-out? Surely I would have been distraught and a bit distressed going through a breakup even if my SO didn't have a PD. And even people without a diagnosable condition participate in hurting others and slinging mud. But, this just felt different, more vindictive. I've had r/s before and after this one and I don't see a pattern of attaching to an 'abusive' type.

I wanted to see if there were others out there who can relate to my understanding myself as a mostly-healthy, not-codependant, but-still-with-some-issues-to-work-through type person

For the record, I totally relate to your above statement. I'm mostly healthy with issues to work on.

thanks, this helps.

But you wanted to hear from the people on this board who don't feel they're at all co-dependent and who don't feel something in their past contributed to their staying with someone with an abusive mental illness. I shall back out now and wait for those people to give you the kind of response you're seeking.

I'll wait and see too. I get the feeling that it may get quiet and I'll be watching tumbleweeds rolling by though  . Again peacebaby, thanks for sharing your wisdom.

[myself]

I have some of both, and am still getting to the why's and how's. So I'd have to get back with you about the percentages and the grand total. Enough to be posting about it.

How many 'nons' have projected, or run away? Was this healthy? It depends. The more I look into the why's and how's, the more I see projections, both good and bad, on either side of the relationship. Which have been more toxic? How sick or well were we when we got into this situation? I think life is constant change, constant balance.

I feel I am more healthy now that I've faced myself. It feels like some of me has been torn away, which could mean there is less to heal. Our FOO stuff makes the codependent stuff more active, and if we turn that toward ourselves it can help the FOO stuff.

[amja77]

To be quite honest, I consider myself to be an unhealthy-non. However, usually only when dealing with my soon-to-be ex BPDbf.

I had a happy childhood, thanks to my mother. However, my father was an alcoholic and drug addict. He was very neglectful and I always felt it was my fault. I also sort of became a refuge for my mother, considering I was her youngest child and the only girl. He died of an overdose at the age of 48. I was 16 years old.

My mother is co-dependent. Very much so. I've definitely inherited and have taken on many of her traits over the years.

I have poor self-esteem and abandonment issues.

The funny thing is, this all surfaced as soon as I began dating my BPDbf. Maybe it was fate. Maybe it was a coincidence. But, it scares me sometimes when I deal with rejection from my BPDbf. It's like, if I sense any type of depersonalization or rejection, I become incredibly anxious and depressed. But sometimes, when things are going well, I become nervous because I'm just waiting for the inevitable crash. Yet I feel I live for those good moments... .idk if this is an Elecktra Complex or just pure self-esteem issues, but it does suck.

It's very interesting and illuminating to try to put the pieces of the puzzle together when trying to figure out why you would allow yourself to be with someone like this.

[Ironmanrises]

For me, I have Major Depression, a mental illness. That alone qualifies me for being an unhealthy non. I was still recovering mentally after my second suicide attempt, when I encountered my exUBPDgf. I learned to be a caretaker from my childhood in dealing with my needy disabled(deaf) mother who I think has NPD/BPD. Not exactly the best things to have in conjunction when someone with BPD enters your life. To say I was ill equipped to deal with this sh¥t would be an understatement. My Major Depression amplifies my sense of worthlessness, low self esteem, putting others before me to my detriment, ruminations, letting go, etc. Now add the volatile brew spewed onto me by my exUBPDgf in 2 rounds of devaluation/discard. It feels like I am fighting a 2 front war, my depression on one side and the aftermath of my BPD nightmare on the other, with me in the middle, being crushed. An mentally unhealthy non would be the spectrum I fall into. I am a wretched mess, friends.

[Perfidy]

I think there might be another facet to nons. A healthy non that really does love the pwBPD. A healthy non that is strong enough to survive. Just because my tights and cape were the wrong color doesn't mean this person can't exist. I don't think I was "that guy". I was strong. Not strong enough. I was strong enough to last almost eight years. Folks, if you believe there is a spectrum to BPD this girl is the epitome of extreme affliction. I believe a stronger person than I could have a good relationship with her. I'm not putting myself down I'm just acknowledging I wasn't the one. I will point out that after I took her in I made no attempts to change her. I always knew she had to find the way herself. I understand love. I also knew that I couldn't change her. Caretaker... .Yes I was. Hoping the day would come when she would wake up. I guess that day came when she left me. I lost track of her... .On purpose. I really don't care one way or the other because of the way she treated me. I would not welcome her back. I do not forgive her. I couldn't respect myself if I did. I have no kind words for her and i have no unkind words either. Pointless.

[bb12]

It was hard for me to truly believe my ex was NPD / BPD despite the evidence

But it was easy for me to see my Codependent traits once I discovered what it was. The   for me were bright and numerous

And yes - it brought into question all of my previous r/ships. Not so much because they ended badly. But because of the same selection process I followed. I was drawn to the wounded birds, the broken wings, the waifs. Ergo, I must have got a buzz or a sense of purpose from being the fixer, rescuer, groomer. Let me show you. Help you.

But the reading suggests that we put the focus on the other person's needs and wants, to either avoid the examination of our own feelings or because we just don't know what they are.

I believe this is my truth.

But I also believe that the severity of our own CoDa issues is indeed on a spectrum and that mine were perhaps as severe as my ex's BPD. I have always felt I needed to ":)O" something to received love instead of just "BE". My natural state would not be good enough, exciting enough, interesting enough, so I had to put on a show.

By the time you reach your forties (just like a pwBPD) we are exhausted and are forced confront the behaviours and choices that just haven't worked for us.

My two cents... .

BB12

[Learning_curve74]

I believe a stronger person than I could have a good relationship with her. I'm not putting myself down I'm just acknowledging I wasn't the one.

I'd like to challenge this belief, Perfidy, even though this is a bit off-topic for the thread. I don't think anybody is strong enough to have a healthy relationship with a drug addict or alcoholic. The fact is that an addict's best friend is their drug of choice. Everybody else is always second choice. If I were the first choice in my pwBPD's life, then she would give up the alcohol and drugs. I didn't stay anywhere as long as you, but I stayed long enough to see her give them up and then go back to them.  :'(

This isn't to say that somebody can't be in a relationship and support the addict in their life while they are trying to kick the habit and heal themselves. Just like with BPD, they have to choose a healing path for themselves, and we can never be strong enough to choose it for them because it isn't our battle.

[Learning_curve74]

Am I codependent or have FOO issues? Yes to both.   

When a friend of mine mentioned codependency, I read about it and said that I wasn't one of those sad people, but the more I thought about it, the more I could identify with some of the traits. I did end up putting her needs first and was neglecting my own. I don't find identity only in being needed however, but I do feel excessively good when I help others.

I also realize that my father was totally invalidating my entire life. He has never said that he loved me or showed me any affection, but instead has only ever offered criticism and made me feel like a failure, like I'm never good enough. Not sure if it is blowing it out of proportion to call it trauma, but I now realize it has shaped almost the entirety of my life. I've always felt like I was only ever defined by what I achieved, and of course, since whatever I achieve is never good enough, I'm stuck. Or I should say I was stuck, since for a while I've been learning to accept myself as being whatever I am without criticism and without giving up hope to work for a different future at the same time.

[damage control]

I am definitely not healthy ... .

[TakingWingAtLast]

Golgylamont

I was raised like that myself.   And my parents also both emphasized giving to your partner, your family AND your community!    They both personally lived that life.   Just yesterday I received high praise about my parents work in Kiwanis, historical preservation and all of their community activism. Still together for the past 60 years.  I'm still amazed.

So, no, I didn't have childhood issues.

So yes, respectful always.  And forgiving.  And loving!  Thought my parents had it right.

Enter uexpwBPDgf.   What a fun time we had for 6 months!   I loved the attention and the sex was awesome.  Travel.  Ran a marathon for the first time with her on the California coast.  What could be wrong?

  Enter then undiagnosed bipolar.  Depression for months.  I took care of everything. Then snap back to mania.  But this time the mania was agitated instead of euphoric.   Boundaries were violated.  Ethical issues became blurred by the expwBPD. It got worse. Yet, I was committed (or maybe should have been committed? .)  Soon reactivity came into play as I fought back.  I was fighting for reality and the truth as I became more devalued.  I would leave the house because I couldn't take it.  Of course that resulted in recycling.  Which ended with either an apology or a suicide call/text.  Committed, forgiving me ran back as fast as possible.  I recycled in this way nearly 30+ times in a 4 year period.   Yet continued boundary violations I did things that violated my own ethics like having affairs myself along with hers.  Yet still committed.  Full on reactive counter non BPD.

I'm exhausted.  And while grieving, glad to be off the roller coaster!   And ready for some very needed selfish time. 

To answer the original question, then, I think I personally went through the entire NonBPD spectrum during my time with the uexpwBPDgf. 

To sum:  The transformation of my own ethics was the real red flag!  Never again!

D

peacebaby, thanks for sharing your experience, please see my comments below:

I used to believe I didn't fit into those categories... .However, I realized that my FOO taught me that, for me to feel okay, I had to make sure others were okay first, and that made *me* feel okay.

Interesting. This is something I can't relate to from my childhood though. My mother, uncles, father, the elders in my life always taught me to stick up for myself. Never taught me to put others feelings before mine. Now, I was taught to be very respectful of others, taught to always treat people kindly and to share. And if I were to borrow something to return it in better condition than I received it. Especially was taught to respect my elders (and luckily they were all wise and deserving of respect).

But if someone were unhappy with me for no reason or I was being treated badly I was taught to fight back. I was taught that mentally I could rise above these situations. And also that if I felt threatened or bullied (when I was really young) that I had every right to fight back. I remember telling my mom about kids who were taunting me ruthlessly at school when I was in elementary--she told me the next time it happened that if anyone tried to rough me up that I should pick up the biggest stick close by and smack them as hard as I could--then see if they kept messing with me. It never came to this but I always felt empowered to stand up for myself and set boundaries. I was never taught to try and placate to other peoples issues.

The childhood experiences that prepare you for being with someone with BPD do not have to be traumatic.

This, I think is very true. I can see some aspects of my personality that played a role in my r/s with BPD, but no they weren't traumatic. For me ever since I remember I've really been attracted to beauty--beautiful music, art, nature, smells, sounds, fashion... .and yes, beautiful women  And I know one of the reasons why I felt so comfortable in my r/s with ex was because i was so physically attracted to her that i didn't feel the need to be with other women. But, the r/s was *never* just about her looks; I only really fell in love once I felt deep feelings from her being reciprocated and we established 'trust', however I realize this aspect of my personality (the love of beautiful things) and am currently assessing its role in my life.

The fact is that people who are in good emotional shape, with no weird childhood crap, would not allow themselves to be treated the way everyone here has allowed themselves to be treated.

Hmm, well how were you treated? I'm realizing that my r/s and the abuse I went through wasn't quite the same for me as for others. The r/s was always difficult, yes. But, I didn't stick around for multiple infidelities like some. We were together for 4 years and only had 1 time that we actually broke up, for about 2 weeks. I'm realizing that many here were with their ex for, say a year and went through like 8 breakups << this to me wouldn't even really be a 'real' r/s. I wouldn't consider this to be a real commitment if we were breaking up so much.

After our r/s ended, my ex immediately started a "r/s" with a guy that lasted for 4 months and they broke up like twice within this time; and she demolished him in the end. While both he and I met the same fate, I don't really give so much credit to this r/s as the one she had with me, or with previous bf's where things lasted longer and were more stable (relatively speaking). The guy she got with afterwards was seriously codependent--texting her constantly immediately saying he loved her, would do anything-kind-of-guy: the opposite of me in many regards. She went through him in a few months, got bored. Our r/s lasted longer, and I honestly don't think this had to do with me being more of a doormat. I think I was just stronger in my own resolve, able to remove myself from bad situations and take care of myself instead of getting too deep into her dramas. So while we did have our bad times, when I did retaliate it wasn't in such a way that would completely end the r/s.

I would never have imagined I'd let all that happen to me, but I did.

well, i can relate to this. i definitely put up with things before that i wouldn't now--but also most of this was me figuring things out; i didn't have an understanding of BPD at the time, why she was acting the ways she was. i never understood how abnormal things were until after i was out of the r/s.

I thought of myself as strong and brave, like I could fix her with my love, like I was strong enough to take all that abuse and remain intact. That's just not healthy thinking.

This is actually something really important that you brought up peacebaby. The fact that many nons believe they can fix their SO. I know clearly that I never deluded myself into thinking I could fix my ex. I was ignorant about PDs in general, but I never felt like I was going to fix any issues that she had. I would see and even talk to her about certain issues she had--low self esteem, past history of cutting (perhaps a decade prior), past history of depression, etc. I just took these things one day at a time. When I saw her I saw someone who had overcome a traumatic past. She wasn't continuing to cut and this had stopped (at least to my knowledge) years before we even met. The social anxieties we could discuss but this never made me want to break up with her; in and of itself it was manageable. So, from the beginning of our r/s I realized that she was someone who had dealt with/was dealing with some issues from a dark past, yet it seemed as if she were managing well. It took years and me breaking up a 2nd time to fully realize how bad she really could be.

The healthy folks who have relationships with BPD's usually get out fast and don't endure the kind of pain that brings people to this board.

And you know this because you've spoken with healthy folks who've been in these relationships? Or is this something that you've heard before here and are just repeating? I hope this doesn't sound too challenging as I really appreciate you sharing. But from what real life experience are you drawing this conclusion?

thanks for your reply!  

[Perfidy]

The non concept... .Identifying ourselves with a mental illness. This is so sad and sickening. Allowing ourselves to be defined by another persons defects. We are a sick bunch. What makes it even more insidious... .When they are gone we stay sick and need therapy. Changed forever by something that wasn't even us. If the statement " you can't change anybody except yourself" is true, how the fu€k did these people change US? Some days I remember that movie one flew over the cuckoos nest. A frontal lobotomy sounds good sometimes.

[Perfidy]

Sorry people... I'm just feeling hitt¥ this morning. Had a bad night. The power went off and it was cold as hell last night. Just shows how important rest is. Didn't get much sleep. Over thinking too much. Might just be time to let it go for a while. Maybe get drunk. Haven't done that in quite a while. Flush the toilet. Coping skills

[Ironmanrises]

It is cold as hell here in Long Island too Perfidy. Hope your power comes back soon. Get some rest to ease your thoughts. Hang in there friend.

[bb12]

Not sure if it is blowing it out of proportion to call it trauma, but I now realize it has shaped almost the entirety of my life. I've always felt like I was only ever defined by what I achieved, and of course, since whatever I achieve is never good enough, I'm stuck.

That's called Sanctuary Trauma. Very subtle. Hard to put your finger on any one thing. But an all pervasive feeling of failure and never being enough. I hear that!

Bb12

[Bananas]

Hi all, been meaning to post about this for a while. I wanted to explore the possibility and challenge the notion that anyone having a relationship with someone wBPD must be one or both of the following:

1) A Codependent person -- someone 'needy' of love in the romantic sense

2) Someone dealing with FO (Family of Origin) issues -- meaning that you are with a BPD because of traumatic child experiences that attract you to pwBPD.

1) "If you've been in a r/s with a pwBPD, then you are unhealthy. Healthy people never get into these r/s." Or another variant on this: "Healthy people walk away from these r/s. If you didn't immediately leave then you must be codependent or attracted to pwBPD in some way"

2) "There is something inherent in you that attracts people with PDs to you. Most likely some childhood issue that you have yet to resolve. You attracted your BPDx to you because of something unhealthy about you."

I am in therapy so I talk about this a lot with my therapist.  This board was the one that made me want to "dig" to see what was wrong with me, since all my friends, family, coworkers, acquaintances say I am one of the most stable people they  know. 

My T says I am not a true co-dependent.  I have a stable family for the most part and had a wonderful childhood.  What I am is a rescuer / fixer type.  I have been put into this role for years by my friends and family and rewarded for it because I am told I am good at it.  I was a peer counselor in high school.  What I am learning to do now is to say No when asked to be in that position.  I did learn some not so healthy behaviors from watching my parents interact, but there was no trauma. 

I like challenges and I like to solve puzzles and I don't like to give up or quit.  This is just part of my personality.  I was intrigued by my ex, he was different than anyone I have ever met.  I was attracted to him because he was like a puzzle for me to figure out.  Once I got in I didn't want to give up.  Intermittent rewards are addictive to almost anyone.  They make you work harder. 

I was also just out of a long relationship when I met my ex so I was vulnerable.  So for me it was all a perfect combination of events.   

[ScotisGone74]

Great thread.    In my case I had a happy childhood, a normal upbringing, married parents that got along pretty well for the most part.   I've never been a drug abuser, I've never been an alcoholic, I've never been in an abusive relationship... .until this one.   I think that for me personally when I came to meet my exBPD I was just really depressed at the time, and she immediately picked up on this.   Depression has run in my family and during the time I met her I do believe that I suffered from clinical depression.   I had my own 'Not Good Enough' syndrome, which I just saw it termed as Sanctuary Trauma, I'll have to read up on that one.    I was just at a spot where I thought I would be further along than I am now... .you know a bigger house, a bigger boat, a bigger truck, a more expensive whatever.   When you examine your life's worth in material items you will always come up short, because someone else somewhere has alot more than you.   Lol... .now I'm at the point where thats okay.   Maybe I just had an early midlife crisis, I still really don't know what the hell happened. 

[Jbt857]

Codependent, abandonment issues and an addictive personality. I knew that when I went into T about 15 years ago, following my first experience with someone with BPD (although then, neither me, nor my T identified that my exbf was BPD - it's relatively unknown even now in the uk).

I took time to heal (2 years single with T), got involved with someone with PTSD for a short, but extremely wonderful relationship with a very unhappy ending.

More T, single 3 years, then met my BPDexh. 10 years of that.

Logically, I know what my issues are. Logically, I know what to look out for. I've talked them through endlessly. Still doesn't seem to stop me making terrible relationship choices for myself.  

[Iwalk-Heruns]

I was looking for this post goldy as you mentioned on another thread you were going to. Thanks! It's one that I have been wanting to discuss.

So I just want to preface this with I don't have it all figured out and of course am no expert. (except of course my PhD in the school of hard knocks having lived through it.) Lol.

We all here are different people with different backgrounds, different personalities and different experiences... .

I have always gotten a little bit angry when I hear someone make a broad brush statement that anyone who was in a BPD relationship is unhealthy or they never would have been in it. You cannot say that for sure and I absolutely do not believe that. I'm sure some are but not everyone. It is not a fact. There are a lot of circumstances that can cause this.

One of the reasons this really bothers me is I think it's like giving a cancer diagnoses to a diabetes patient. Not only can it can stop you from healing it can hurt you further. It does someone no good who may just need to learn from an experience, be aware of the red flags, realize they can't change anybody... .

My relationship started out seemingly in a very adult, healthy way. If these behaviors were there from the beginning there is no way I would have been in it. I can say this for certain. I am really not one that let's people walk over me or treat me poorly. While my son was young I had not been in a relationship for quite a while so I could devote my off hours to him so I do not just fill voids with men. I can be alone! I just prefer to have someone in my life.

It wasn't until several months in that the behaviors started and by then I already loved him deeply. He was a very good person seemingly. There were a lot of circumstances that I attributed to his behavior. Stresses on both our sides. Job loss, recession, cancer, death etc. I basically wrote it off to a bad phase. I thought if we stuck together we could get through it. I know plenty of good couples who go through rough patches. They are still together years later because they didn't jump ship. Obviously this is different but everything unfolded over the 3.5 yr period.

Now after it did get bad and the anger and break ups etc started surfacing I think I was emotionally worn down and still loved him and got to a point where I couldn't see clearly. Yes the relationship became unhealthy but I think that is different than being unhealthy. I got in a fog. I didn't  know about the cheating until after it was over. Now that I am out I can see it for what it is and would never ever go back. I want more for my life.

Now, if after everything I know now I seek him out or go after someone who is obviously unhealthy I definitely need some therapy to help me work out those issues.

Again, I am far from perfect but being imperfect does not make us unhealthy. It just makes us human.

I think people need to be careful to attribute their feelings as facts onto others.

There's more I could say on this but don't want to write a novel.

[TakingWingAtLast]

Goldylamont,

That was true for me as well.  I met the ex during the same time period that my 1st wife and I finally said that it was over.  The void was there!   And along comes the expwBPDgf to scoop me up in a torrent of idealization.  I was a very low hanging fruit there!

I was also just out of a long relationship when I met my ex so I was vulnerable.  So for me it was all a perfect combination of events.