Is BPD logical or unlogical?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I read in one of the boards that BPD is a mental illness and is NOT logical. My psychiatrist mentioned that BPD is NOT a mental illness, is an emotional dis-regulation . When you learn it properly, it does make it LOGICAL somehow. To me as a non borderline, I had a very UNLOGICAL way of thinking. What do you think?

[Pearl55]

I read in one of the boards that BPD is a mental illness and is NOT logical. My psychiatrist mentioned that BPD is NOT a mental illness, is an emotional dis-regulation . When you learn it properly, it does make it LOGICAL somehow. To me as a non borderline, I had a very UNLOGICAL way of thinking. What do you think?

[LilMissSunshine]

My head just exploded 

[charred]

Each of the behaviors that pwBPD exhibit, people without BPD exhibit. In the context of where the traumatic incidents, and personal decisions that the person with BPD ... .chances are the decisions made sense, and were logical, given the choices they had or felt they had at the time. However when people get stuck with very limited choices of behavior (like trying to please others instead of themselves... and dealing with extreme pain/resentment)... they get stuck. BPD is an attachment/developmental disorder, the pwBPD typically has abandonment issues, and stopped maturing emotionally at an early stage. If you were following them and knew what happened it probably made sense at the time, but getting stuck at 2-4 yrs old level of maturity... isn't going to make much sense when viewing that same person as an adult... still acting the same ways.

So... for the most part understanding how it came about is logical and comprehend able... .however the irrational/un-logical behavior they exhibit is pretty hard and pointless to try to "make sense" of. Enough people had the same general types of attachment/developmental issues that we can step back and see common patterns in the behavior (idealizing, clinging, hating, etc)... but they are still individuals, with different genes, different environments, and different experiences... so like all different people, they are different.

I spent a lot of time trying to understand my pwBPD... then BPD in general, then how I could be a fool to fall for "an act"... .and eventually came round and realized that my pwBPD has big issues, and I have smaller ones that made me particularly vulnerable to the idealizing from my pwBPD. There is little I can do to change her, but my issues were brought to the surface. Dealing with them was something worth doing.

[fromheeltoheal]

BPD is a personality disorder, not an organic brain disease; the brain is fine functionally, but the situations, traumas, whatever, that happened at a young age caused the sufferer to interpret themselves and the world in a way that got hardwired into their personality, became part of who they are.  That happens for everyone, on the way to becoming "who we are", it just doesn't happen "correctly" for a borderline, and the result is the group of traits we're all familiar with here.  I think both organic brain issues and personality disorders are considered mental illnesses, but I ain't no shrink.

Anyway, I've found it is quite possible to learn the motivations and underlying beliefs of a borderline, which go a long way to explaining the behaviors.  The clinical side really helped me to detach, since I couldn't make sense of anything when I was emotionally enmeshed with her and trying to make logical sense of things.  Why she does what she does makes perfect sense to me now, and I want absolutely no part of it.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

For the pwBPD,  their emotions = their reality.

And they act according to that "reality", meaning they act out on whatever emotions they experience at any hour(s) or day(s).

Given that BPD is a condition that dis-regulates emotions, the "reality" for the pwBPD is as fleeting and fluid as their mood swings.

For pwBPD, I am sure that their actions may,   to THEM,  seem "logical" at the time of their implementation.

But their emotions may shift at the drop of a hat, and along with the ever-fluctuating emotions, their sense of reality also shifts beyond their control.

So for the pwBPD, their actions are only as logical as their rolly-coaster rides of internal (diseased) turmoil.

For the rest of us, who tend to have a relatively more solid grasp on reality, the actions and thoughts of the pwBPD often seem impulsive, self-destructive, and VERY illogical.

So I guess, BPD is a condition that unravels the distinctions between logical/ illogical for our pwBPD.

While for the non's around them, who love and care for them, the manifestations of BPD are totally  anti-logic.

   

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Correction--- "who (has once) loveD and careD for them"... .

[Pearl55]

They are in total control of what they are doing.  There is no organic factor or deficit in self control that causes what they do. Their acts are willful and premeditated. They comprehend the difference between right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate, truth and lies, reality and fantasy.




They frequently hold jobs and involve themselves in social situations where their destructive behaviors would quickly work against them. They often perform admirably and demonstrate a respectable capacity for self control and appropriate behavior.


Because the reasons above, they don't understand why their partners willing to continue with them. Their thoughts; Are non BPDs using them?

Are they afraid of being alone?

Why someone healthy love them?

It must be something wrong with them too.

They view their partners as their opponents so they must win over them by eroding their self esteem and confidence, by stealing from them, by forcing them to take the abuse, to accept their holiday choices ... .

When they win over us they see us as weak persons because we are weak opponents! They will lose interest in us... That's why we are not good enough for them!


They look for a parent in their relationships. This expectations will not achieve so they enter hater phase.   

I tested many things in my relationship and to me BPD is a logical disorder.

[fromheeltoheal]

For the pwBPD,  their emotions = their reality.

And they act according to that "reality", meaning they act out on whatever emotions they experience at any hour(s) or day(s).

Given that BPD is a condition that dis-regulates emotions, the "reality" for the pwBPD is as fleeting and fluid as their mood swings.

For pwBPD, I am sure that their actions may,   to THEM,  seem "logical" at the time of their implementation.

But their emotions may shift at the drop of a hat, and along with the ever-fluctuating emotions, their sense of reality also shifts beyond their control.

So for the pwBPD, their actions are only as logical as their rolly-coaster rides of internal (diseased) turmoil.

For the rest of us, who tend to have a relatively more solid grasp on reality, the actions and thoughts of the pwBPD often seem impulsive, self-destructive, and VERY illogical.

So I guess, BPD is a condition that unravels the distinctions between logical/ illogical for our pwBPD.

While for the non's around them, who love and care for them, the manifestations of BPD are totally  anti-logic.

   

That's actually true for everyone, the difference for a borderline being they lack the ability to self-soothe, to regulate their own emotions, and therefore feel all of them intensely and aren't able to get a handle on them, get a hold of themselves if you will, when triggered, and that manifests in all the behaviors we're familiar with.

We have all been in situations where the emotions are so strong that we may act irrationally and later not know why we did what we did, maybe consider it surreal; it's a continuum, and a borderline just is in that state frequently, especially when triggered.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Fromheeltoheal,

Call it lack of insight, or a deficit in "central coherence"  to see the Big Picture... .

pwBPD just have that UNIQUE something that drives them to self-sabotage an itty bitty MORE than common folks.

I don't know how to explain it... .

It is like, when they feel an overwhelming emotional, their scope of mental focus just zooms IN soo much that they lose sight of everything.



When non's lose our tempers, in the back of our heads, we still KNOW what we are doing, and that we are just letting the emotional part get the better of us.

For pwBPD, it is different.

They could TOTALLY lose themselves in the tantrum and say/ do truly scary stuff, and then not expect to be held responsible for it.

I hope I am still making sense here... .

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

They view their partners as their opponents so they must win over them by eroding their self esteem and confidence, by stealing from them, by forcing them to take the abuse... .

They look for a parent in their relationships. This expectations will not achieve so they enter hater phase.   

BINGO! Pearl55!

The mixed role of parent/ partner that they find in us could account for a lot of their love/hate, push/pull, I need you/ I detest you  dichotomy.

They were denied (a) parent figure(s) when they were young.

Abandonment issues were planted.

While growing up, the seeds of abandonment germinate.

When they meet a romantic partner in adult life, the ambivalent issues come to fruition.

Oh dear... .

[fromheeltoheal]

Fromheeltoheal,

Call it lack of insight, or a deficit in "central coherence"  to see the Big Picture... .

pwBPD just have that UNIQUE something that drives them to self-sabotage an itty bitty MORE than common folks.

I don't know how to explain it... .

It is like, when they feel an overwhelming emotional, their scope of mental focus just zooms IN soo much that they lose sight of everything.



When non's lose our tempers, in the back of our heads, we still KNOW what we are doing, and that we are just letting the emotional part get the better of us.

For pwBPD, it is different.

They could TOTALLY lose themselves in the tantrum and say/ do truly scary stuff, and then not expect to be held responsible for it.

I hope I am still making sense here... .

I get it Soldier, my point being it's a continuum, not so much an us/them like a borderline is an alien who thinks in a foreign way that we can't comprehend.  We can comprehend it because it's just an extension of something we're all familiar with.

Another important piece is the fact that a borderline does not openly express most of the emotions they're feeling, mostly because of shame and fear of abandonment, and also due to lack of awareness and maturity, they just act them out maladaptively instead, again something we all do in varying degrees.

The clincher of course is the "that's just the way I am, deal with it" mindset, the expectation that they can just do whatever without taking responsibility for it.  We're all responsible for our actions, including borderlines, although it's difficult for people who are literally out of control to accept that responsibility.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Fromheeltoheal,

My point being it's a continuum, not so much an us/them like a borderline is an alien who thinks in a foreign way that we can't comprehend.  We can comprehend it because it's just an extension of something we're all familiar with.

Damned right it is a continuum!

I mean, you and I could fly off the handle due to some external stressors.

But like you said, the DEGREE of their reaction is often OFF THE CHARTS due to a malfunction in self-soothing and general coping mechanisms that has been LEARNED to be expressed in a f***ed up manner since infancy.

EXACTLY my point.

Disclaimer: I do not think of them as ALIEN at all. I often see my ex as TOO HUMAN to have responded the way that she has after enduring the ordeal that she did since growing up.

She has admitted herself into the psych ward just before X'mas.  

And despite my NC, I still ordered self-help books from Amazon for her to read during her stay in the "nut house"... .(to be delivered by her mom, the primary care giver NOW).

I don't hate her. I still want her to get well and help herself.

But as in this transitional period, I prefer to distance myself and help her through a third party.

[Pearl55]

Soldier of sorrow


Why they don't lose their controls while they are at work? My husband is psychiatrist himself. Why all his colleouges think he's one of the most caring man?

They must have a reason in their minds to control themselves. We were already too deep in that chaos and they used us as a punch bag to rag at us to FEEL LIVELY. When we took all abuses, there was no reason for them to control themselves!

[fromheeltoheal]

Fromheeltoheal,

Damned right it is a continuum!

I mean, you and I could fly off the handle due to some external stressors.

But like you said, the DEGREE of their reaction is often OFF THE CHARTS due to a malfunction in self-soothing and general coping mechanisms that has been LEARNED to be expressed in a f***ed up manner since infancy.

EXACTLY my point.

Disclaimer: I do not think of them as ALIEN at all. I often see my ex as TOO HUMAN to have responded the way that she has after enduring the ordeal that she did since growing up.

She has admitted herself into the psych ward just before X'mas.

And despite my NC, I still ordered self-help books from Amazon for her to read during her stay in the "nut house"... .(to be delivered by her mom, the primary care giver NOW).

I don't hate her. I still want her to get well and help herself.

But as in this transitional period, I prefer to distance myself and help her through a third party.

Opps. Screwed up the previous post. I'm a little bit emotional. Beg your pardon.

We're on the same page Soldier.  I see all the time on these boards how borderlines are painted as "them", these strange, confusing creatures, and I find a need to remind that they are just people, sick, not bad, due to childhood trauma, as you mention.

I'm sorry your ex ended up in the psych ward, and that may be the best thing that could have happened.  I liken BPD to alcoholism, where every drunk must hit bottom to get humble enough to be open to solutions, and maybe this will be the event that causes your ex to seek real treatment and stick with it.

Your gesture of providing her resources comes from a good place I can tell.  We want our borderlines to get help and get well, and there's also a component of validation in there; if they accept our help that means they're the screwed up one, a stretch for someone who is used to not taking responsibility.  My borderline ex, and I've seen it echoed a lot on these boards, told me I was the one who was ill and needed help, in her head I was, and with all of the disrespect and belittling that preceded it I almost believed her, until I detached and learned; sure, I'm far from perfect, a classic people pleaser, but I don't have a personality disorder.  Expect some push back from your gesture, as your borderline projects her issues on you to cope, and take care of you!

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Pearl55,

The pwBPD only express his/her traits with the CLOSEST people in their lives.

It is a condition that is inseparable with intimacy issues.

So it is very normal to see many high-functioning pwBPD working flawlessly and "getting along" with their colleagues. (Because there aren't any triggers concerning intimacy/ abandonment to set them off in the workplace).

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Expect some push back from your gesture, as your borderline projects her issues on you to cope, and take care of you!

Thanks fromheeltoheal,

I have seen that coming.

My ex WILL play her resilient role of "I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING AND I DON'T NEED ANY GODDAMNED HELP FROM ANYONE OR ANYTHING!"

But seriously, she is locked up in an institute. The books will do her good.

Besides, what ELSE is there to do in there apart from having a good read on something helpful?

LOL

[arn131arn]

Ya'll after reading this thread, I absolutley feel terrible about the way I treated her after the last detachment and finding out about my replacement. A tremendous amount of guilt and shame has come onto me thinking about her as a 5 year old child, her dad abandoning her, her sick twisted mother too concerned with the father leaving and never providing for her what she needed emotionally.  Jesus, I have committed to NC for the rest of my life, yet know, at some point need to make ammends for the comments about the abortion. I cannot justify my actions because I did them and they were wrong. I intentionally hurt her with words bc I TRULY wanted her to feel the pain I was in. That is SO wrong on SO many levels. Does anyone know how to handle this newfound shame and guilt I feel now? Does anyone have any experience with one day cleaning my side of the street for my part in the RS. Thanks for opening my eyes, I wasn't the only victim in this RS. I had my wrongs, as well. Damn this is bittersweet.

[MammaMia]

Bpd is predictably unpredictable and logically illogical.  It is a mental disorder.  Most diseases can be treated medically, surgically, or pharmaceutically.  BPD is a flawed personality caused by genetic and environmental factors.

One of the main issues with BPD is a lack of emotional control, especially when dysregulated.  Have you ever tried to reason with a small child who is lying on the floor screaming, crying, and flailing their arms and legs?  That behavior (much like raging in BPD) was not planned or premeditated.  It is an automatic reaction due to mental immaturity.  

I suppose it is possible that some pwBPD may be able to plan revenge, but I think most of their volatility builds over time and finally spontaneously erupts and spirals out of control.  I would wonder if the ability to "plan" might be part of another mental disorder (like Narcissism) coupled with BPD.

The question of dysregulation and automatic versus planned responses has been around a long time without being resolved.  Maybe it is both?

[Pearl55]

Soldier of sorrow

I don't believe in that because my husband controlled himself for the whole 8 months of my pregnancy soo well. I had my best time ever in that 8 months. My husband already was in a hater phase after 6 years of our marriage so knew he wanted to replace me with my child so he did so well. When my son was born, he banged my head with his laptop one week later! Three was no reason to control himself anymore!

Why they behave during their recycling periods? Bpd is the most misunderstood psychiatric disorder.

[fromheeltoheal]

Ya'll after reading this thread, I absolutley feel terrible about the way I treated her after the last detachment and finding out about my replacement. A tremendous amount of guilt and shame has come onto me thinking about her as a 5 year old child, her dad abandoning her, her sick twisted mother too concerned with the father leaving and never providing for her what she needed emotionally.  Jesus, I have committed to NC for the rest of my life, yet know, at some point need to make ammends for the comments about the abortion. I cannot justify my actions because I did them and they were wrong. I intentionally hurt her with words bc I TRULY wanted her to feel the pain I was in. That is SO wrong on SO many levels. Does anyone know how to handle this newfound shame and guilt I feel now? Does anyone have any experience with one day cleaning my side of the street for my part in the RS. Thanks for opening my eyes, I wasn't the only victim in this RS. I had my wrongs, as well. Damn this is bittersweet.

I don't have experience arn, but I see it as natural to fight back when we've been hurt or abused.  Something in me stopped me from going there with her, mostly because I saw it as highly dysfunctional and not a relationship dynamic I wanted any part of, so I just left.  It was very difficult to hold my tongue, but after I left I had no guilt or need to apologize, and I'm at least happy about that.

I say as you detach and heal it is important to apologize sincerely if it's the right thing to do.  Others here probably have experience with it, but to me it's probably better done in a letter or similar, since in my case, had I reengaged with her by trying to do it in person, the crazy would show up no doubt, and I might have created wreckage I didn't want or need.  I say do what's right while protecting yourself so you don't make it worse.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

arn131arn,

Hey, don't feel bad about what you did or said.

We're human, after all.

AND DO NOT take me as an example on how to treat one's BPD EX.

OK?

I am a recovering CO-DEPENDENT RESCUER who is still struggling to get out of the F.O.G in the most constructive, humane way so that nobody gets hurt (except myself)!

Anger could be a healthy turning point, a wake-up call if you will... .

If you have felt it, the anger, and you have let it out, then it was a GOOD thing.

Screw the guilt and self-loathing.

They will get you nowhere fast... .

I am just fresh into NC and doing my best to tidy up the loose ends... .

pwBPD have the power to bring out BOTH the best and worst in us.

So I guess in the end of the day, it is up to ourselves (the survivors) to reflect on what parts of ourselves that we have seen in the pwBPD, and ... .er... .simply live.

[Pearl55]

Arn

Don't ever feel guilty. They don't understand respect, they view it as a sign of weakness!

I had lots of anger towards the end of our relationship. The most important person I feel guilty is my son. I'm not able to forgive myself to be such an ignorant woman.

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

I don't believe in that because my husband controlled himself for the whole 8 months of my pregnancy soo well. I had my best time ever in that 8 months. My husband already was in a hater phase after 6 years of our marriage so knew he wanted to replace me with my child so he did so well. When my son was born, he banged my head with his laptop one week later! Three was no reason to control himself anymore!

Why they behave during their recycling periods? Bpd is the most misunderstood psychiatric disorder.

Pearl55,

Honestly, I feel I am in way over my head here in your case.

Here goes nothing... .

As long as you were carrying that child inside you, you were the GOOD object.

This MAY be due to whatever ideals/ values that your SO may have had in your baby.

And once the baby was born, guess what?

The child was the good object.  And you were the bad object all of a sudden (?)

Pearl55, have you exposed yourself to the literature on BPD and NPD?

The two personality traits overlap to an extent (more than you know)... .

So instead of me potentially MISLEADING you, I'd suggest that you read up on the spectrum of BPD/NPD.

[Pearl55]

Soldier of sorrow

Yes my husband is BPD/NPD/HPD!

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Pearl55,

O----Kay... .

Yeah, I knew I smelt something OTHER than BPD... .

Hmmmmm... .

[Pearl55]

Soldier of sorrow

Why I didn't wake up earlier? I've got narcicisstic traits myself. That answeres everything.

How was your seduction phase? She must have controlled herself most of the time!

They are like chameleons!

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

Pearl55,

I am relatively new to this board.

But haven't we crossed paths a month ago?

I posted that valerian root capsules are good for sleeping.

And extra-strength B vitamins are good as pick-me-up in your worst mornings?

[arn131arn]

Well, it's hard not to especially imagining her as a 5 year old child. I am angry at her, but don't think I hate her. I did love her with all my heart, ya'll. But to say what I said is inexplicable. hit do I feel so terrible. I would have never said that to a child... .know what I mean?

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

arn131arn,

True... .


BUT


You only felt guilty AFTER saying the mean things that you did.


Because we all do our best to treat the pwBPD as adults.


It is ONLY in the GUILT phase that we see the fact that the pwBPD hasn't been and never will be an adult.


So what if you feel bad about expressing your anger to an adult (whom unknowingly was actually a child?)

This is crazy-making sh**, ain't it?

[Soldier Of Sorrow]

How was your seduction phase? She must have controlled herself most of the time!

They are like chameleons!

The seduction phase was quite textbook-ish.

My ex was "well-behaved"... .translates to keeping with the program and maintaining her vampish charms.

It was nothing special... .just the typical honeymoon phase.