My Psychopath Schema

[Natasha Tomicic]

Mode  ----------------------------------  Vulnerable child  Angry Child  Enraged Child  Impulsive Child  Undisciplined Child  Happy Child  Compliant Surrender  Detached Protector  Detached Self-Soother  Self-aggrandizer  Bully and Attack mode  Punishing Parent  Demanding Parent  Healthy Adult

Tendency  --------------   --   --   --   --   --   Mod   --   --   --   Mod   Mod   --   High   High

Avg  --------   2.10   2.20   1.30   2.00   1.33   3.10   1.86   2.78   2.25   2.90   2.78   1.80   4.20   5.50

4+  -------  0  0  0  1  0  3  0  2  1  3  3  0  7  10

Compare to GP  -------------------  Above norm  --  --  --  --  --  --  Above norm  --  --  Above norm  --  Above norm  Above norm

Tendency refers to the schema frameworks by which I may function.
 Average is the mean of the numerical answers that I provided for each schema mode (rated from 1-6).
 4+ is the number of the answers of 4 or higher that I provided for each schema mode.
 "Above norm" is greater than 1 standard deviation from the mean (average) - stronger tendencies than the general population.
 in other words, statistically higher than the general population.
 
Makes sense, attack mode to protect child. Hmmmmm... . and above norm in healthy adult?  And demanding parent? Demand a lot of myself. True.
 
A moderately Happy Child till someone rains on my day and then it's attack mode? Sounds about right  
 
Compliant? More or less  
 
Detached protector? Need to check that one out ... .
 
Self aggrandizer? or Narc trait? <--- good little psychopath.  

Natasha Schliephorst-Tomicic

References: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[Natasha Tomicic]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4MEQRgJbfU

I feel so much better *whew*    

Low response to pain.

Low Anxiety

Fascinated by weird stuff

Don't show anger, even when furious.

Dependent on cultural norms.


Hmmm... .

Meh... . and maybe not. Acts of violence or a rarity. So interesting.

[Natasha Tomicic]

I joke about my Psychopath trails, as it was how it felt at the time. Insane. Sometimes, completely unreal. And www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2003/psychopaths.htm
 
Is not far off the mark and completely opposite on many aspects. Again, don't need to fit anything "100%' nor would I want to. But, it does explain a bit too much and a bit too well.
 
As there is really no such thing as a ' non ', it makes sense to be honest with what traits can be identified as all the PD's are to some degree a part of the human condition, however some aspects manifest in full blown form. i.e. BPD etc.
 
Diagnostic features of Psychopathic personality disorder (PPD)
 
             Psychopathic personality disorder (PPD) has some overlap with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) according the DSM-IV criteria of the American Psychiatric Association (1994), which is nowadays the official term, but these disorders are not synonymous (Martens, 2000). ASPD (DSM-IV, 1994) and PPD (Cleckley, 1984; Hare et al., 1990; Hare, 1991) is characterized by features like irritability and aggressiveness, impulsivity or failure to planning ahead, reckless disregard for the safety of self and others, pathological egocentricity, lack of guilt or remorse, social maladjustment, poor development of relationships, deceitfulness. Criminality is included in the criteria of ASPD but not of PPD. Furthermore, psychopathic personality disorder is characterized by following traits which do not meet ASPD criteria according the DSM-IV: inadequate motivated antisocial behavior; lack of nervousness and psychoneurotic manifestations; absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking; superficial charm and good intelligence; incapacity for love; specific loss of insight; unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations; fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink and sometimes without; suicide rarely carried out; sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated;  poor judgment and failure to learn from experiences (Cleckley, 1984); manipulative behavior; conning; pathological lying; grandiose sense of self-worth; need for stimulation/ proneness to boredom; shallow affect and/or callousness and lack of empathy; parasitic life-style; poor self-control; promiscuous sexual behavior; many short-term marital relationships; early  behavioral problems juvenile criminality and versatility among others (Hare, 1991); poor fear conditioning (lack of fear) (Lykken 1995) and sensation seeking (Zuckerman, 1994); good reality testing ( Dorr & Woodhall, 1986; Fingarette, 1972; Martens, 1997; Wolman, 1987), and hidden suffering (Martens, 2002b).
 
 Several traits where there from the get go, but what emerged over time, is something quite a bit more robust. At the same time, so did control. I have empathy, but I can and have had to shut down on that.
 
 ASPD, are generally fighting compulsions to harm others to release anger or what not. I am not like that at all. Revenge is more a Narc and PPD trait, but, I could care less 99% of the time. If someone deliberately and with intent tries to harm me or the ones I love, then that changes.
 
 No drugs, no alcohol, nothing to dull the pain. Meditation and exercise and learning about how to solve the impossible. Which was impossible. Reading on the BPD boards is always a headache, but a good exercise in owning the futility of even trying to "help"/ change my exH. He lacks insight completely and anything potentially negative he cannot handle. He is 'perfect' in his eyes and everyone else is the problem. Not so. And no one needs to be 'perfect' to not be abused either.
 
 "IF" I am a psychopath, then I am either a lousy one or a 'good one' because I can choose what I will do. And even I chose some pretty horrible actions, it was not out of malice or the desire to hurt for the sake of it. But I did do it. With my back up against the wall, there were/are not many options and the survival instinct kicks in to its full glory. Right/ Wrong doesn't enter the equation anymore.
 
 I chose to stay, and as such the damage is mostly my fault, but damn it, I hate giving up on anything or anyone. Now? I will cut and run. It makes no sense. Can't save anyone from themselves.

[Natasha Tomicic]

“Warrior Gene” Predicts Aggressive Behavior After Provocation

www.news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2009/01/hotsauce

That experiment would have had no effect on me. And now also not, but get in my face with abusive crap? I react. That's a guarantee.

Reading on the ASPD forums, is interesting, but the compulsions are not mine at all. Nothing close. Require a direct attack, then the mind goes clear and calm. I don't panic. I don't panic in general as it is. I find that to be an idiotic waste of energy and accomplishes nothing. Low -No anxiety . 10 years ago, was the egg shells, but years of hyper vigilance took their toll and the responses changed.

www.personality-testing.info/tests/LSRP.php

Interesting test among many. My Machiavellian component is quite pronounced . Which is not a wonder, I can see it in my earlier posts as well. I wish I had taken something like this test at that time to compare. Would be interesting to see if there were changes over time.

Another interesting point that I had forgotten about and came across yet again, was the need for control. The non partners are extensions of the BPD/ NPD, not autonomous. Which is where the lying and the emotional and physical abuse comes into play. Anything to keep the partner under control for as long as we are of "use." A rather nauseating concept of love. Unfortunately that is what also occurred in my marriage and which I also loathed.

The lack of Accountability is the hall mark, but that does not presuppose that the PD'd partner is unaware. If anything, they are more aware then they will ever admit, but their responses are the emotional equivalent of children. Hand not caught in the cookie jar, but the crumbs are all over their faces.

After years of that for crap, I admit, and still now, when lying like that is going on, I want to bash the teeth to the back of the skull of the person. Why? Not because of the lie, but because they are so stupid they expect another to believe it. Not based in anger, but the sheer vulgar display of stupidity from an "adult."  Of course Online, no one can really know the Truth of anything, it's one sided. But there are two sides to every story and somewhere in the middle is perhaps the Truth.

Fight / Flight response and hypervigilance can be used to explain some points, but this goes beyond that, as it was primal. And remains present at all times. Not vigilance either. An awareness of being and Choice. Doesn't matter what it is, it's choice.

I don't like liars and I don't like "feeders." To my way of thinking, they are the lowest form of human garbage. Shifting perspective wrt the PD's and those with the awareness and capacity to choose otherwise, I don't give a ratz back end about their excuses or how/ why they are the way they are anymore. I simply don't. They have the capacity to slap the Mask on when it suits them, they can also hammer the damn thing to their skulls while they're at it. BE a human being, or do the world a favor and commit suicide properly. Or get therapy and own their crap.

My poor husband, married to a woman that demanded that he own his crap? What a concept. 

[dontknow2]

Another interesting point that I had forgotten about and came across yet again, was the need for control. The non partners are extensions of the BPD/ NPD, not autonomous. Which is where the lying and the emotional and physical abuse comes into play. Anything to keep the partner under control for as long as we are of "use." A rather nauseating concept of love. Unfortunately that is what also occurred in my marriage and which I also loathed.
 
I don't like liars and I don't like "feeders." To my way of thinking, they are the lowest form of human garbage. Shifting perspective wrt the PD's and those with the awareness and capacity to choose otherwise, I don't give a ratz back end about their excuses or how/ why they are the way they are anymore. I simply don't. They have the capacity to slap the Mask on when it suits them, they can also hammer the damn thing to their skulls while they're at it. BE a human being, or do the world a favor and commit suicide properly. Or get therapy and own their crap.

 You are much farther along than me in understanding the mental illness side of things. A lot of people don't understand me. The 2 points above really stood out for me.
 
 I think I read something similar somewhere but had forgotten. It is important for me to remember my being "of use" was my way of controlling my ex too. This is true in my case. Thank you for the reminder.  
 
 In regards to your second point, I used to be someone who held myself to a very high standard of truth and honesty. Then in therapy, I realized I was harming myself to ALWAYS require this of me even when super uncomfortable or fearful. So, I do allow myself small lies every now and then especially if feeling low. For example, a co-worker purchased a bracelet for me and let me borrow all this stuff (i.e. multiple dresses, etc.) to dress up for my first valentines date. This was a very big deal to her. In the end, I didn't wear any of it. I even purchased a similar bracelet but didn't use hers. When I saw her next, I was depressed since the Valentines date that night exposed the reality that my ex really wasn't attracted to me. Yet, she was so excited about hearing what I wore. I explained her outfits, jewelry helped me gained an idea of my style but purchased my own stuff. In her disappointment, she said "did you wear my bracelet?" and I said "yes". I needed to reduce the pressure on me in this instant.
 
 That said, you sound very strong and confident in your psychopathy. So, I understand you may be in a different situation but wanted to explain why I lie.

[Natasha Tomicic]

Hi don'tknow2

You are brave... . I am mostly ignored as a "psychopath"   eeheehee. J/K

Then in therapy, I realized I was harming myself to ALWAYS require this of me even when super uncomfortable or fearful.

I don't understand that kind of fear. I really don't. And I can't empathize with it either. I can try, but it would fall flat. I fear surviving a bad car crash and living crippled due to life saving operations I would rather not have. Otherwise? Not too much to fear.

I used to fear my husband's idiotic explosions though, then... . not. Screw him. If he can dish it out? Then he can wear it too. Made things worse for a while, but then it got better too. I *disappeared* when possible, or fought back no holds barred. Didn't matter anymore.

To know what style clothes, perfume, makeup what not. That is not ever a question. I know what I like and prefer. That your friend wanted to help is nice.

When I saw her next, I was depressed since the Valentines date that night exposed the reality that my ex really wasn't attracted to me.

Is this a date with a woman? I am confused, you are recently divorced from a male BPD?

Yet, she was so excited about hearing what I wore. I explained her outfits, jewelry helped me gained an idea of my style but purchased my own stuff. In her disappointment, she said "did you wear my bracelet?" and I said "yes". I needed to reduce the pressure on me in this instant.

White lie, . She went through effort , time and money to help you out. So validating that is not a "great evil."

Based on your write up I can draw a twisted parallel. A BPD without his/her Mask. What lies behind it is generally not all that much. Can try to cajole them into therapy, stand by them [ and waste your time] or Leave. Which causes the abandonment fear to kick in in overdrive. And they may leave first. Or later, but the same end result as the non / psychopath will get sick to death of dealing with it.

A constant construct of Lies / Denial [ which is different] to yourself and others will never move the process forward. Probably why one of my favorite statements: Own your sh!t.  I had quite a bit to clean up. However, none of it was the projection nor accusations that were thrown at me. What was mine? The retaliation. For a brief time? White lies. Gave up on that completely due to the Black/ White thinking of my exH. There was no possibility for his brain to process it. An email to any male meant I wanted to screw them. Who can argue that logic?  

As it turns out, 2 BPD's were in my life, the current exH and the previous exBF. exH was blind to his crap, the exBF is a pathological liar in both the male and Female masks and is 100% aware of the games he plays online. Which makes him a maggot in my eyes. It's not a question of "clothes" it's a point of lack of Integrity and Accountability which is repugnant on every level. exH could at times own his crap, when the cops and legal system were involved, but 1 on 1 ? No.

Which reminds me. Accountability. I brought the police and the ambulance when things went too far. What happened: exH was reading my emails over my shoulder and being an A$$, and I had asked him to stop with the ignorant comments. I was not doing anything wrong or bad. Then he jumped up and was dancing about like a 4 years old pretending to whack off and yelling at me. WTF was that about? I have no idea. I asked him " Do you really think that is normal behaviour" , he launched at me and punched me at the computer.

ERROR

I got up and grabbed a glass bottle as he plopped his a$$ into his chair and went back to his computer. { stupid or what? He just punched me and expected "nothing"} smashed him with it.

SUE Me. Poor baby.

I ran, went to my GF's house and we got the police. I told what I had done. No problem.

Chicken or the Egg?

Over and done with. Can't reason with Crazy, Liars or Drunks.

The relief is palpable and physical.

I would not want to be trapped like the cockroaches they are choking on the garbage that passes for gray matter in their minds for life nor money.

[dontknow2]

  I have a severe mental illness, too; no judgments here.
 
 My exH is a man and who I went on the Valentines date with (first Valentines date in our 20 year history). In my story, I was just referring to a friend that is a girl wanting to help me dress up for the date (because I had not done that before). I picked that story because it stands out in my mind; partly because now I am stuck hiding those pictures from her. Yes, it was a white lie. That said, each of us would define a "white lie" differently.
 
 As far as my fear of telling the truth in certain situations, I know it's irrational and battling it. My fear started when I was so little it became engrained. If I said anything that hurt my single mother's feelings (which didn't take much), she would say I didn't love her and talk about killing herself (and occasional kill me too). Hence my fear, irrational or not.
 
 I am very sorry to hear about your physical abuse. It sounds like you are able to protect yourself and get the police involved but still horrific. I hope you are safe now.

[Natasha Tomicic]

Hello Dontknow2,

May I ask, Which mental illness? Help me to understand your POV. No judgements here either. I'm not God. I am only concerned with Actions and Intent. When there is awareness, there are then No excuses. Reasons, but not excuses.

As far as my fear of telling the truth in certain situations, I know it's irrational and battling it. My fear started when I was so little it became engrained. If I said anything that hurt my single mother's feelings (which didn't take much), she would say I didn't love her and talk about killing herself (and occasional kill me too). Hence my fear, irrational or not.

FEAR = The mind Killer. It's the worst. It stunts inner growth. Once you push through that? Nothing really holds you back you know? Nothing. Fear is not always logical either is it?

Sorry that fear of your mother as a child is where the compulsion starts. That is not the burden any child should ever bare. And, you can end it too. She is not in your life anymore other than that which you allow her to interfere, Giving her that kind of power over you in the now? Doesn't serve you. I lie, sometimes.  Silly unimportant stuff.   It's relative to the cause though. Gubment is my preferred target. Mind you, I like my gubment. They are wonderfully corrupt, as all are, so why not play the same game? 

Physical abuse, funny that one. Most people are shocked by it. And worse if you admit to retaliating in kind, you are branded an abuser as well. I don't care. I know what I did. And will do same in future if it ever were to happen. It's to be expected. Eye for an Eye, Old Testament comes in handy for things like that. I am fine, thank you for your kind thoughts.

Abuse takes many forms. It's interesting the effects it has on people. Some crumble, lose themselves to the chaos. It owns / destroys them. Others, the Mask cracks and what comes out of the fire? Is something altogether more fulfilling. I think there are better ways to achieve the same outcome, but that's the hand of cards I was dealt, so might as well walk away with something from the table.



www.theunboundedspirit.com/20-social-masks-people-wear/

Is an interesting and accurate write up.  We all wear "masks" to a degree, tell "lies" it's the degree and the compulsion to do so that is the determining factor. Some do it to manipulate. Many reasons. Me at home slothing about and me at work? A bit different.    How about yourself?

Which masks do you wear?

I think mine is the Judious/ Intellectual/ Streetfighting Guru ={ don't listen to me, this is only what I did,I don't say it's the best or only way} : “If you know your enemy and you know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a thousand battles“ I have a propensity for hanging people with their own words. And that I don't care what the outcome is 99% of the time as I already know what I want and how to get there, makes me worse.

Your mother's happiness or lack thereof  was never your responsibility. It was a manipulation. God awful thing to do to a child, but so it was. Same for every day dealing with people, their happiness is their problem, not yours. But the small white lie as you stated above? Is not a big deal. People lie. It's the Intent behind the lie that matters more I would think, as well as the propensity for creating a false self to sell the rest of humanity that they interact with. In doing that sort of thing, you wind up painting shame over the soul for no reason. As though what you really are, isn't good enough. Afraid to speak up for yourself, even to your friend about not wearing the clothes that she wanted you to wear. It was  a nice gesture on both parts, but speaking up about it would have probably made it easier on both sides. It's the delivery of the message as well as the message that makes the difference.

Back to the Masks;

The Passive-Aggressive

These are people who are so anal, that when they want to communicate your violation of one of their insignificant little pet peeves, they prefer to leave you little notes here and there to express their dissatisfaction. When they’re not leaving you little notes, they’ll send you an e-mail. The bottom line is that these people try to avoid in person confrontation as much as possible. This is because they’re  actually cowards who want to fight, but have neither the will nor the strength to do so. They scare easily. As such, they pursue other evasive methods of warfare (hence, “passive-aggressive”) all while being politically correct and painfully polite. They are relying on the fact that you supposedly respect their bounds enough not to become confrontational. Take that power away from them by doing just that. Confront them. Better yet, if you want to have fun with them will driving them up the wall, return the favour. Trading notes or e-mails can prove to be pretty fun. It actually gives you time to think about what to say before you jot it down. If they call you childish, just remind them who started it. Make them realise that you’re openly stripping them of their power. It will drive them mad.

This is really funny... . and oh so true.

I know someone who wears multiple Masks at the same time and chats with himself online. But 1 on1 ? Passive aggressive and cowardice are pretty much one and the same as far I am concerned. Heck, he's so scared of himself he's rejected himself and behind the masks? No Idea_  ?

Passive aggressive's are those with bottled up anger, and it shoots out side ways.   Those comfy with their anger, put it to better use. 

Which Masks do you think you wear? Why? They can be a blend. Just something fun to consider. 

[GreenMango]

Schemas are different personalities we assume to cope with life. Certain grouping are indicative of mental illnesses.

Bully and Attackand Self-Aggrandizer modes are overcompensating modes typically seen in people with ASPD and psychopaths.

Bully and Attack mode, it is an aspect of the Self-Aggrandizer that puts itself above others by being disdainful of them. When this expresses itself in self-righteous scolding and lying, revenge, callousness it is called “Scolding Overcontroller”. These tend to be self-defeating modes.

Why does anyone do this? Because they feel slighted or humiliated and they are not capable of communicating and working things out, so that try to shift the table and be the persecutor. Ultimately they see the world as victims and predators and they prefer to be a predator.

Generally, treatment is available to balance maladaptive schemas. I would be concerned about

[Natasha Tomicic]

If you mean Masks? Then , no. I don't wear one. That's the problem. IF I do, and am doing the boundary busting, I can be read a mile away by anyone that knows me. I don't need one, nor do I want one. Then it's childish games.

I have been looking at the sociopath forums, and I see a great deal of whining and poor me, and FOO issues, people that are trying to understand their issues. Some wanting to change, others looking  to improve their skills. It's one thing to know that you are emoting differently, why you do so and another to become a better predator. The BPD and NPD are both feeders. Parasites. That's the end goal. Exploitation in  some form. Question of awareness. Same for ASPD, but they are pretty straight up about it. ASPD many prefer to be alone and not bother with r/s. And again, each is different. Cannot use one color of paint to paint a person based on traits.

At the end of the day, regardless of the PD or not, it's the Actions. What drives those Actions? Are they malignant? Based on Fear? What? What is the impact of those actions on others? The Intent behind them? Some are really disgusting and ought to be removed from the gene pool. They will only breed more like themselves. The world has enough trouble as it is.

In too many ways, my r/s with my exH, I lost my "innocence" wrt to what I considered Love. My needs are equally important, and the other's does not supersede mine. Selfish, but it's healthy too. Two broken people cannot make a whole, and one whole person with a broken will create two broken over time.

Regardless of the etiology of the PD, as Adults we are responsible at all times for our Actions and Inactions. They are each a Choice. What drives the choices? That is the question.

Empathy. Without the capacity for empathy, what will force a change? Or even make it a consideration? BPD are empathic, but they don't have any for the person closest to them as there is a tit for tat mentality. Revenge. Make the other hurt the same as they are. But what was the Hurt? Are they even related when they strike back at their partner? What is the punitive parent role in that case doing?

When I look at my own actions, they were in retaliation. NPD type of thing. But, also easy to stop that. The physical responses, those are a given. Lay a hand on me, and I flipped the switch, and I TOLD him that is what would happen. I gave myself permission, regardless of the social construct of right or wrong or the potential legal fall out for those actions. Choice.

After about 2 years of the crap, less than that actually, something that was always present just came out in full glory. The ruthless aspect of ASPD, which is lacking in the narc. I am not a mirror, nor do I want one. The Mirror is the Mask of the other in seduction mode.

Still working through this stuff. Also the lying. What is the point? Most of the lying is some form of manipulation or a manner in which to escape responsibility for one's actions. And the thrill of the Lie or the Dupe is the drug. To my way of being? It's disgusting. It's also why therapy is often pointless with BPD/ NPD/ ASPD/ PPD/ HPD unless they are willing to be brutally honest and want to change.

From my perspective, I don't care what label sticks to me. PPD is about the only one that makes half way sense and resonates. The others are too far off the mark. They are emotional storms without a sense of anything. At one time, I was blind to the impact of my actions emotionally on others. I see that now as well.

[GreenMango]

It's real easy to assign labels ... . even to ourselves.

Have you thought about having a therapist do real diagnostic?

[Natasha Tomicic]

Yes, I have, but there is no one here with that type of training. I have checked. The other possibility is a brain scan, to see what is nature vs nurture. I can look back to childhood and see the same patterns in many cases. The lack of fear,  etc. Flying in the face of the norms while not getting caught. Disrespect for authority, but not in all cases. When I have no respect, then , well... . mmmm. Not good.

The scores for the PD traits are well below norm for HPD/ BPD/ NPD/ ASPD { ASPD tad above the norm, but situation specific} and I have none of the emptiness, void, depression, lack of self worth/ esteem. Quite the opposite. Rightfully there or not. I am not self aggrandizing though nor lying about accomplishments. Stupid to do that. When I bust people for that sort of thing myself? My view of them tends to crater.

My PPD scores though ? And Machiavellian? *cough* they are very high. Very.

It's a choice. Some choose to Lie and manipulate as a way of being. It's the game. Those, disgust me. There mummy and daddy issues they can work out and deal with. If not? I would have no qualms about running them over either. Quite a few in fact, I get a little black about a few things, very few. And my thoughts and would preference for how to respond to that, is not pleasant nor socially acceptable.

At the same time, so what? I don't force those views down any one's throat either.

When it comes to the PD'd, lack of awareness is no excuse for the choice of Actions, because a choice was still made. There is no way around that one. Unless they are schizophrenic or some damn thing. Depression? Still choices are made.

Even with the FOO issues, those are still FOO and people that are no longer active in a person's Adult Life. As such, I also find it irritating to look to the FOO as though that is where all the answers and "blame" can be assigned. It isn't. It's a road map and nothing more, but where the forks in the path occur, were all the Choices I have made. Right/ wrong/ middle of the road as they were.

As far as I am concerned, it's more important to be ruthless with myself. It's irrelevant to me what label sticks, but that there is something in there that is really hitting very close to home is not something I am going to run from either. I look at the reactions of people on the boards, and I am not in quite the same frame of mind by any stretch and my boundaries were ruthless on several aspects where others caved in for various reasons. Why ?

What is the fundamental difference? I didn't lose myself in this r/s. I was always present, but what came out of the fire? Pretty close to full blown. I know what I do and why. Not emotional reasoning. What stops the less delightful aspects? Choice. Who I am is not hollow at the core. I don't look to another for direction or meaning or purpose.

Existence is a fascinating journey and there's not that much time left. As long as I am not harming anyone? I can live with being a psychopath or whatever, but if anyone comes along and tries to mess with me, they get to deal with the blown version and I will not feel one bit bad about it. Hang'em with their own entrails for being stupid enough to try.

[dontknow2]

Wow. I thought I had issues. I feel pretty tame now.
 
 

May I ask, Which mental illness? Help me to understand your POV. No judgements here either. I'm not God. I am only concerned with Actions and Intent. When there is awareness, there are then No excuses. Reasons, but not excuses.

I've been diagnosed with Social Anxiety. I have panic attacks or uncontrollable crying, shaking when feeling too verbally exposed. That said, I've asked my T's not to tell me any diagnosis (Social Anxiety just slipped out one day). They've led me to believe I am diagnosed with more though. Although one T did confirm I do not have BPD, I feel like BPD is dormant inside of me; kind of like certain viruses. I mentioned this to my current T and he said with my Mom experience, he understood... . not sure if there is actual science behind 'dormant' mental illnesses though.
 
 

And worse if you admit to retaliating in kind, you are branded an abuser as well.

I am sorry you were ever a situation calling for you to retaliate and be abusive. I am glad you are fine now.
 
 

Which masks do you wear?

Passive-Aggressive, Bureaucrat, Bhit. My anger definitely shoots out sideways... . I like that saying.
 
 Thank you for helping increase my awareness and remove my excuses  . Although I have been working for years through my false identities, masks, insecurities, suppressed emotions, and fears, I have more to go. Since I was so young emotionally when I started therapy (I didn't know how I felt when asked; or just good or bad), it's taking me a long time to evolve. I do appreciate the nudge to continue though. I've given myself a long enough break. My last wave was a doozy and really tired me out (an excuse, yes   but I am OK with that).
 
 I love your curiosity and tenacity. Take care of yourself.  
 
 

[Natasha Tomicic]

not sure if there is actual science behind 'dormant' mental illnesses though.

Genetic predisposition, environmental factors, hormonal changes, what have you. Innate characteristics yet to be quantified scientifically, who knows?

My thoughts are: Half the Battle, is Awareness, with that? Can change anything. What's holding you back? Fear?

Gut through it. Force yourself. What's the worst that can really happen? Break down crying in public? So what? Won't kill you.

My criteria is rather simple. If it can Kill me. It's worth to take note. If it can otherwise physically damage me and cause life long grief and reduce my physical quality of life?  It is a problem. Anything else? Not important.

Self-defense is not abuse. I am sorry you were ever a situation calling for self-defense and then branded negatively because of it.

I know. I don't care what anyone attempts to brand/ label me with. I know what happened.

Although I have been working for years through my false identities, masks, insecurities, suppressed emotions, and fears, I have more to go. Since I was so young emotionally when I started therapy (I didn't know how I felt when asked; or just good or bad), it's taking me a long time to evolve. I do appreciate the nudge to continue though. I've given myself a long enough break. My last wave was a doozy and really tired me out (an excuse, yes  wink but I am OK with that).

Any of those fears capable of killing you? Realistically?

Feel the Fear, know it is irrational, and do what ever it is that scares the crap out of you. Gets easy after that.   Really does.

[dontknow2]

Feel the Fear, know it is irrational, and do what ever it is that scares the crap out of you. Gets easy after that.   Really does.

More often, I will "do whatever it is that scares the crap out of me". Thank you.

[Natasha Tomicic]

 

Challenge yourself. Doesn't matter if you fail. Those are lessons of what not to do the next time.  

If it cannot kill me, the fear is irrational. Not real. Not Valid.

Roll the dice and let go of the outcome. Bet on yourself and you win every time  

[Natasha Tomicic]

Have been researching more into what makes me tick like a Swiss watch. Very interesting. And again, only strong traits, the scores are definitely not to be ignored. I don't have to like it. I have to deal with it.  

For myself it was most frustrating dealing with my exH due to the complete blank wall of denial. In his eyes, he was or had to be "perfect" which no one is, ever. Doesn't exist.

My ASPD traits, are not of the criminal nature per se, more fly below the radar, which is more a PPD thing if one is inclined. And many are, because why not? i.e. My terribleness at being stopped the other night by the cops, I'd had 2 glasses of wine, and had to blow, lucky me, I was 0.01 below the limit, BUT, I didn't have my driver's license nor ID with me, and not wearing my seat belt [ rarely do, only if I see cops around] and one head light was broken. Which is why they pulled me over in the first place.

AND... . I Lied my ass off. And got off scott free. The cops were very nice. I really only told one lie, but it's how you lie and the reasons thereof. The fines are brutally expensive    ... . and damn I was lucky  

So , where am I going with this? Responsibility and Accountability. The two things that are the bugaboo of a r/s with a pwPD, be it NPD, BPD, ASPD, PPD or what have you for a PD. Lying is the get out of jail free card. It's not a question of denial as denial is not the same as lying. The onus is on the received of the Lie to believe it. When you don't, they teller tends to go sky high, or start confabulating more lies, projecting and gas lighting. What is that all about? Control. To bring the partner back in line with their desired view of themselves as they wish the partner to see them. Of course it is horse hockey and this is the dissonance and trauma bonding on the psychological and emotional level. Unfortunately, if you are heavily traited for PPD, then it is much harder to pull that game off. PPD reality test to the nth degree and are resistant to trauma. Thank Heaven's for the Warrior Genes.  

Psychopaths and Moral Knowledge

www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/mrvargas/Papers/VNFinal.pdf

MORAL JUDGMENTS IN PSYCHOPATHS

It is often stated, that hurt people, hurt people. And that is the endless gift of the rabbits breeding without control. Too many bunnies in the pen, and they start feeding on each other.   If you are human, it is assumed that we have the cognitive ability to do differently. To reason. But with the PD'd it seem we are giving them a free pass based on emotional reasoning? Validation till the cows come home with a PD'd partner is a one way street to hell. And, the lying and betrayal while completely aware of their actions? Fascinates me that they can stand themselves. In fact, they cannot. The self Hatred runs straight to the core, and their own internal disgust and revulsion with themselves is what was projected.

It's that Self hatred, and lack of self, and shame that seems to be the driving force of the feeding frenzy of the BPD and NPD, the NPD creates a False Self to lure supply, while the BPD is a Chameleon, mirroring you/ me, and are  both suffering from abandonment issues. The NPD is in fact more sensitive to the fears of abandonment than the BPD for some odd reason. Which is where the enmeshment and need for control of the partner takes over. The BPD is the emotional volcano without controls and seeks validation in any form and at any expense to the self. Where as the Narc will go about it in covert or overt methods. The fundamental difference between the  covert and overt is cowardice in the covert. In the end analysis though, both are parasites be default. As without "supply" they will implode through their own self hatred either depression or suicide will take its toll so they are always on the look out for someone to latch on to using any means possible. Lying does that rather well.

How did this work? My exH had trouble spinning reality on me, as I reality test like an SOB, and when he could not get me to agree with his version, he became physical. That in turn was a bad plan due to my own ASPD traits. Violence doesn't bother me all that much as I grew up with that overseas to begin with. It was "normal."  Of course it is not, in western society, but that is also a grand lie we tell ourselves. Just turn the TV on for a reality check.

Ah well, me and my little dragonet are happy campers. As oddly unique as we may be, there are no excuses. I really like that aspect. None for me, and also precious few for the PD'd. Whether they care to admit it or not. Albeit, I do remain fascinated by the Lack of Self concept, I cannot wrap my brain around it. How you cannot know who you are? It's one thing to do bloody awful things, and I have done so, but to not know Who I am? Strange. And I have read that on the BPD and NPD boards.

FOO? I am so tired of the blaming of FOO. In some cases, physical and sexual abuse. That will have truly  horrible effects. But the rest of us without that? Myself included. I have no excuses.

The more I look at this, it was the rejection of myself based on his projections that caused the greatest difficulty. And at the same time, it was not about me at all. I am aware of that. And that gives me peace. I'd thank him , but he would not ever understand for what and then blame me for not warning him, when I had. Catch 22.

[Natasha Tomicic]

Hello Don'tknow2

Would you mind explaining to me how this works?

I created a false self to survive... . starting at a very young age (under 5). It started so young that after a while, it was me. Eventually, I started busting at the seams and didn't know why. It took a couple years of therapy to begin to differentiate what was me, what was others instruction on how to be, and what was superficially created by me.

I don't know what is a false self, other than to assume/ guess that it is a pack of lies that are told to others. i.e. online, a person can run multiple avatars/ altars/ profiles and give completely bogus information. Anything to communicate with others, or receive attention.However, I did see that playing out with my exH. He would go on and on about his "things" which was BS. And when he was once called out on it by another man, he kind of choked. It was interesting watching the reaction. After that, he hated the guy. Was silly. But what can you do? They don't process like a normal human would. If busted for lying and self aggrandizing one should be embarrassed, and it would not have occurred in the first place had he not been lying to start with.

For me, it's not about blaming the FOO. Part of the discovery process was identifying the source. When I identified the source, it helped me better understand the problem. Now that I've got a better grasp of the problem, I am working on effective solutions but takes time. I had to start from scratch... . regrow up, relive, refeel, reparent, etc... Shoot, I feel like I had to start from the womb.

Understand what you mean. It helped me to see the patterns in my marriage as well. Funny, but I had not dated men with personalities like my father in the past. Avoided them. But, that I was overseas at the time, and bad timing and worse luck and lonely, *boom* I was ripe for the picking.   Casanova extraordinaire.  

Thanks for insights into the NPD control needs. It helped me realize something that might be going on with my xBPDh's Mom.

That is from the NPD boards. Great insights there. Also that for an NPD, People are a Hall of Mirrors. When we don't reflect back to them how wonderful they are, it's a massive narcissistic injury. Narc's are at the mercy of the Mirror, and when you stop reflecting how wonderful you may think they are? Then, Devalue+Discard. Control is necessary to manage our perceptions of them, but it doesn't and cannot work because we are Not extensions of them.

Pretty sure my dad was a Narc, my mom co dep. My exH , NPD/ BPD with a good splash of ASPD. Quite the mess. But, that is also what NC or VLC is about. Going No Contact with the FOO is not an easy choice, but sometimes it is necessary. Depends on the dynamics. Now? It's fine. Radical Acceptance. They are who they are and they will not ever change.

Me? I'm a lousy PPD out of the mess.  Not all bad at all. Either it's PPD or who the heck knows what, but I like it.   Choice. I am not riddled at the core with shame and self loathing. Hallmarks of NPD and BPD, and both require Supply. I am not like that at all. Friends, real friends, and that is normal. Family. If we are lucky enough to have a healthy FOO, even better. Not all are. Mine is a mess, so what? That's who they are.

Quite possibly I have it all wrong, but I feel good with it as it is, so how "bad" can that be? Not like I have the ability to change the past, it Was, this is Now, and that's what I can work with to affect my Future. The Present was the Future of the Past. Choose differently and choose wisely.

I loved someone who was Personality Disordered. He wasn't "evil" but he was out of control. His control. He could not 'control' me and that led to the chaos. It was not all bad. There was a great deal of good as well. Feel sorry for him, as at times, there was some awareness, but he was too terrified to face himself in his own Mirror.

Perhaps part of the whole pile of crap, is Self Acceptance, both for the Non and in a best case scenario if the r/s continues, for the pwPD. And then work on it. Not too many other options really, as the other roads lead to depression and chaos. No matter what though, the only person you can change is yourSelf.

So, in my case ? The "Gift" of the Borderline was ramping up the Warrior Genes?   

[Natasha Tomicic]

Reduced spontaneous but relatively normal deliberate vicarious representations in psychopathy

Makes more and more sense. And also plays into a bunch of posts that a covert Narc had written on another board. PPD are next to impossible to manipulate. My exH was Overt/ violent. I wasn't innocent in retaliation either.

PPD, also trauma resistant. My emotions, are not the same or as long lasting, but that doesn't mean I don't feel. That is a myth. There is not a quantifiable measure of emotions anyways other than to compare to the human experience. How one describes emotions is another things as well. They may be precisely the same but were they quantifiable? Would it Be the same? And the effects thereof? I don't know. But, reading the boards, the self medicating and what not. I went down a different track apparently. Fine with that as well.

Right vs. Wrong. It's not a question. Awareness is present. The Choice is cognitive. With the BPD and NPD, same deal, but they remain unaware as to what drives them. Mostly, it is shame and fear. When you feel neither Shame nor fear , my guess, emotions are not in the driver's seat. BPD/ NPD/HPD operate based on Emotional Reasoning. Will do whatever is necessary, acting out, what have you to seek validation/ Supply in any form. It validates their existence. Need. Losing that? Is where the need to Control and manipulate falls into place.

Do they know? Are the aware? Yes. Most certainly. BUT, the problem is, the traits which allow for keeping and maintaining a r/s with them are abused. Boundaries are the key. Giving a person the benefit of the doubt is the Achilles heel for many, myself included. My reasoning, : Nobody can really be that stupid. But when it becomes a pattern of behavior? Well, then there is a problem. And that includes my own.

Validation was a problem for me, and still is.  I am pretty piss poor in the emo department, and that is not a bad thing, but really made it hard on my exH. I did try and did improve. But it was false. He could feel that and reacted to that as well. My needs were and are pretty minimal but the negative values were too much for me. Feeding the Void. No thanks.

Need a brain scan to confirm, but have a feeling, it's not supposition on my part. Was thinking this may be the case about 3.5 years ago, but denied it.  Who wants to think that they may be a psychopath when there is not the history of animal abuse and pathological lying is not my focus nor interest. Not that I don't sometimes lie, but that it is mostly unnecessary to begin with. Empathy is restricted unless I focus it. That I did notice. I was not responding deliberately to many many posts because I could not see the problem. And I cheated, I let others respond first. Then had to work my thinking around to see it in that manner. But it's not automatic. If it were something previously experienced, I could work with that. But so much of what I read, does really fall flat for me.

Find it funny, a person/ PD has the capacity to lie and the awareness is the existence of the Lie. One doesn't lie in a vacuum. It's the intent and the motivation behind the lie that is the key. To admit to being weak and needy and fearful of losing the love object and the desperation to not be stuck with themselves is the driver. Self loathing, guilt , shame and the recognition of what they have done and are? Pretty grim.  They will implode in short order via drugs, booze or who knows what. But that does really seem to be the controller of their actions. The cover or the band aid? Find another source, anyone will do.

Suppose the take hiome message, is that there was something good in you that they found they could exploit. And they did. Aware or not, that is what happens. Unfortunately the damage to the non can be extreme. And that's where the boundaries and reality testing come in. Something like that at any rate. BPD/ NPD are pretty delusional at times. If you go down the rabbit hole, it's a regular mess. And that is where we can get messed up. But... . there is a way out and they can stay down there. Cut your losses and run. It will hurt, but that's normal. It will pass too. They are not the center of existence, you are the center of your own.

I have tons of reading, but to be really honest, I did pretty damn little with the DBT and CBT stuff. Next to nothing other than to read it. The one thing that was most helpful, is to simply check your emotions for their validity. Don't bury them. Feel them and check where they are coming from. That's about it. As well as the FOO pattern. That one is obvious.

Body, Mind, Spirit. Keep that all in check and under control. The rest sorts itself out.