Codependency

[Waifed]

I have recently finished two books about codependency.  I am amazed at how accurate Pia Mellody is in her writing.  One thing that really stands out to me is the fact that codependent people are very similar to pwBPD.  BPD is not discussed in her books but the symptoms are very similar.  I am not a professional but it seems to me that pwBPD are extreme codependents.  The label makes them a mentally ill person with borderline personality disorder.  In reality they appear to fit in as just extremely codependent people.  I know it is oversimplified but many of the terms such as black and white thinking, lack of a fully developed self, control, manipulation, intimacy issues, enmeshment, engfulfment/abandonment issues, etc. are also strong traits of a typical codependent person.  ie. we are living with many of the traits that we put down about pwBPD.  It is all about awareness and unless you become aware of yourself then you will continue to deny.  I realized after reading about black and white thinking that I am pretty guilty of it. BTW, she states that it takes 3-5 years of therapy to recover from codependency. All addictions must be dealt with prior to codependency. Sound familiar?

Just my thoughts.  

[CoasterRider]

I tried to "cure" my codependency issues, by changing strategies on how I date. I tried dating someone who I knew was leaving to go out of the country for awhile. I was able to keep myself fairly emotionally detached and just enjoy hanging out and having fun. When I met my pwBPDex, I was able to use what I learned to start slower and not expect as much. Wasnt long though and especially towards the end when it hit the fan, all my old ways came screaming back to me.

[KE151]

Makes sense. Maybe this is why we sometimes fear we are the ones with the PD. We recognize some of the symptoms in ourselves.

I've actually been thinking my exBPDgf2 was extremely codep instead of pd. In any case a codep/codep r/s is probably equally toxic as a BPD/codep r/s.

[tiredndown]

It is all about awareness and unless you become aware of yourself then you will continue to deny.

I feel like ALL people have issues. Normal people typically look at themselves and make changes based on what they see. The ones that have real issues are the ones that can't admit they have problems... .

"The REAL crazy people Don't know they are crazy"

[CoasterRider]

It is all about awareness and unless you become aware of yourself then you will continue to deny.

I feel like ALL people have issues. Normal people typically look at themselves and make changes based on what they see. The ones that have real issues are the ones that can't admit they have problems... .

"The REAL crazy people Don't know they are crazy"

My T said usually its in moments as dire as these that promote a pause and opportunity for reflection and thus is the catalyst for change. I was slowly catching on to some of the things I was doing pre-breakup that I wasnt happy with, as far as what I was contributing to the relationship. Thinking I was causing these problems, I was quickly attempting to make and show real understanding and change. But alas it was not enough, as it wasnt all mine to fix. The shame is they walk away never using the opportunity to reflect, taking ownership and responsibility for their part, to ensure the same mistakes arent made again. Especially when they move on to a new attachment so quickly they are doomed to repeat themselves. My ex was always conscious of his "issues" but this was never enough to control them. There was a brief moment when we began counseling, I thought he was really ready to acknowledge them, and take responsibility for how they were affecting us. It wasnt long before counseling turned into him blaming me for all our problems, how he couldnt believe anything I said anymore, or couldnt allow himself to trust me again, how he didnt feel bad for me, because it was all my own fault.

Like a dope, I took ALL the blame and responsibility and carried everyone of those bags, thinking that would make the difference. All it ended up doing was allowing him to walk away affirmed that in fact I was the scoundrel, and he was in the right by leaving me.

[Waifed]

It is all about awareness and unless you become aware of yourself then you will continue to deny.

I feel like ALL people have issues. Normal people typically look at themselves and make changes based on what they see. The ones that have real issues are the ones that can't admit they have problems... .

"The REAL crazy people Don't know they are crazy"

My T said usually its in moments as dire as these that promote a pause and opportunity for reflection and thus is the catalyst for change. I was slowly catching on to some of the things I was doing pre-breakup that I wasnt happy with, as far as what I was contributing to the relationship. Thinking I was causing these problems, I was quickly attempting to make and show real understanding and change. But alas it was not enough, as it wasnt all mine to fix. The shame is they walk away never using the opportunity to reflect, taking ownership and responsibility for their part, to ensure the same mistakes arent made again. Especially when they move on to a new attachment so quickly they are doomed to repeat themselves. My ex was always conscious of his "issues" but this was never enough to control them. There was a brief moment when we began counseling, I thought he was really ready to acknowledge them, and take responsibility for how they were affecting us. It wasnt long before counseling turned into him blaming me for all our problems, how he couldnt believe anything I said anymore, or couldnt allow himself to trust me again, how he didnt feel bad for me, because it was all my own fault.

Like a dope, I took ALL the blame and responsibility and carried everyone of those bags, thinking that would make the difference. All it ended up doing was allowing him to walk away affirmed that in fact I was the scoundrel, and he was in the right by leaving me.

You have to wonder how many failed relationships they have to have to begin looking in the mirror.  It is the narcissistic traits that keeps them in denial.  Codependents often have the grandiose traits themselves as a coping mechanism for the shame we developed in childhood from not being good enough/feeling loved.  This relationship and its traumatic effects has made me aware of the pattern I have followed throughout my life when it comes to my behavior and choice of partners.

[CoasterRider]

It is all about awareness and unless you become aware of yourself then you will continue to deny.

I feel like ALL people have issues. Normal people typically look at themselves and make changes based on what they see. The ones that have real issues are the ones that can't admit they have problems... .

"The REAL crazy people Don't know they are crazy"

My T said usually its in moments as dire as these that promote a pause and opportunity for reflection and thus is the catalyst for change. I was slowly catching on to some of the things I was doing pre-breakup that I wasnt happy with, as far as what I was contributing to the relationship. Thinking I was causing these problems, I was quickly attempting to make and show real understanding and change. But alas it was not enough, as it wasnt all mine to fix. The shame is they walk away never using the opportunity to reflect, taking ownership and responsibility for their part, to ensure the same mistakes arent made again. Especially when they move on to a new attachment so quickly they are doomed to repeat themselves. My ex was always conscious of his "issues" but this was never enough to control them. There was a brief moment when we began counseling, I thought he was really ready to acknowledge them, and take responsibility for how they were affecting us. It wasnt long before counseling turned into him blaming me for all our problems, how he couldnt believe anything I said anymore, or couldnt allow himself to trust me again, how he didnt feel bad for me, because it was all my own fault.

Like a dope, I took ALL the blame and responsibility and carried everyone of those bags, thinking that would make the difference. All it ended up doing was allowing him to walk away affirmed that in fact I was the scoundrel, and he was in the right by leaving me.

You have to wonder how many failed relationships they have to have to begin looking in the mirror.  It is the narcissistic traits that keeps them in denial.  Codependents often have the grandiose traits themselves as a coping mechanism for the shame we developed in childhood from not being good enough/feeling loved.  This relationship and its traumatic effects has made me aware of the pattern I have followed throughout my life when it comes to my behavior and choice of partners.

That's why we walk away and they stay stuck. I hope you can take that understanding of your pattern and put it to use in being selective of who you date next.

My ex had 5 relationships in 5 years, guess its 6 now in 6 years if you count my replacement. The reason they all ended were never his fault, it was always the other person. The only one he talks to still is a guy was a drug addict towards the end of their r/s. My talking to a former fling > using drugs, that is in my ex's book as what is forgivable behavior or not. Guess if I crammed a needle in my arm or snorted powder up my nose we'd still at least be friends... . who'd have known facebook chatting was over the line... . ridiculous

[musicfan42]

I have recently finished two books about codependency.

Would you list the names of the books here please? Since you mention Pia Mellody, I presume that "Codependent No More" is one of the books... am I correct?

Were there any specific recommendations in the books that you found helpful?

I've read up on codependency before however I find that other people can have helpful observations on the issue.

One thing that really stands out to me is the fact that codependent people are very similar to pwBPD.  BPD is not discussed in her books but the symptoms are very similar.  I am not a professional but it seems to me that pwBPD are extreme codependents.  The label makes them a mentally ill person with borderline personality disorder.  In reality they appear to fit in as just extremely codependent people.  I know it is oversimplified but many of the terms such as black and white thinking, lack of a fully developed self, control, manipulation, intimacy issues, enmeshment, engfulfment/abandonment issues, etc. are also strong traits of a typical codependent person.  ie. we are living with many of the traits that we put down about pwBPD.  It is all about awareness and unless you become aware of yourself then you will continue to deny.  

I can see where you're coming from here however I think it's best to treat codependency and BPD separately for the sake of simplicity. It gets too complicated when you try to mix the two in together.

The concept of codependency comes from the 12 step movement/disease model of addiction whereas BPD is a personality disorder and is in the DSM. There have been clinical studies done on BPD however no clinical research has been done on codependency. I do believe that codependency is a real issue however there's no mention of it in the DSM. If anyone has any information on why this is, please let me know!

In terms of the DSM, a lot of nons on the forum here seem to have self-esteem issues, depression, anxiety, PTSD.

I realized after reading about black and white thinking that I am pretty guilty of it.

Black and white thinking is very common in people with depression and anxiety. It's a cognitive distortion/thought error. It's covered a lot in the book "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David Burns.

BTW, she states that it takes 3-5 years of therapy to recover from codependency.

I agree that it takes time to recover from codependency. There's no clinical research done on codependency though so I feel that this claim is problematic. What evidence is there to back it up? It may take some people a short amount of time to recover from codependency whereas it may take others a longer period of time. People are different so I would find the 3-5 year claim questionable.

All addictions must be dealt with prior to codependency. Sound familiar?

This comes from the 12 step/disease model which believes that codependency is at the root of all addiction. I don't know whether this is true or not but that's just what I've read.

Addiction needs to be dealt with first anyway, regardless of what mental disorder someone has. For example, someone might be suspected of having BPD but they need to be assessed after they've been sober for a while because addicts tend to act chaotically anyway. People need to be sober at least 1 year before a diagnosis of BPD can be made.

If someone just has an addiction, then mood swings etc should subside once they're sober whereas if they persist, then that's a sign that's something else is wrong. It may be a mood disorder like depression, bipolar disorder etc or else it may be a personality disorder like BPD.

[Waifed]

I have recently finished two books about codependency.

Would you list the names of the books here please? Since you mention Pia Mellody, I presume that "Codependent No More" is one of the books... am I correct?

"Facing Codependency" and "Facing Love Addiction"

Were there any specific recommendations in the books that you found helpful?

WOW... . everywhere... . I am going to read them both again and outline them this time.  So full of info... . I liked Facing Codependency because it also gives pointers on how to raise children in a healthy environment.  I never had one so it is very helpful.

I've read up on codependency before however I find that other people can have helpful observations on the issue.

Pia Mellody is a recovering codependent who began research a couple of decades ago while working in a addiction recovery retreat.  She was suffering with issues and couldn't find any info and noticed that many alcoholics at the retreat had similar symptoms as her.  That is how her research evolved, through discussing issues with others who had the same problems.  She became aware of things.

One thing that really stands out to me is the fact that codependent people are very similar to pwBPD.  BPD is not discussed in her books but the symptoms are very similar.  I am not a professional but it seems to me that pwBPD are extreme codependents.  The label makes them a mentally ill person with borderline personality disorder.  In reality they appear to fit in as just extremely codependent people.  I know it is oversimplified but many of the terms such as black and white thinking, lack of a fully developed self, control, manipulation, intimacy issues, enmeshment, engfulfment/abandonment issues, etc. are also strong traits of a typical codependent person.  ie. we are living with many of the traits that we put down about pwBPD.  It is all about awareness and unless you become aware of yourself then you will continue to deny.  

I can see where you're coming from here however I think it's best to treat codependency and BPD separately for the sake of simplicity. It gets too complicated when you try to mix the two in together.

The concept of codependency comes from the 12 step movement/disease model of addiction whereas BPD is a personality disorder and is in the DSM. There have been clinical studies done on BPD however no clinical research has been done on codependency. I do believe that codependency is a real issue however there's no mention of it in the DSM. If anyone has any information on why this is, please let me know!

In terms of the DSM, a lot of nons on the forum here seem to have self-esteem issues, depression, anxiety, PTSD.

I realized after reading about black and white thinking that I am pretty guilty of it.

Black and white thinking is very common in people with depression and anxiety. It's a cognitive distortion/thought error. It's covered a lot in the book "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David Burns.

This book is also on my list to read

BTW, she states that it takes 3-5 years of therapy to recover from codependency.

I agree that it takes time to recover from codependency. There's no clinical research done on codependency though so I feel that this claim is problematic. What evidence is there to back it up? It may take some people a short amount of time to recover from codependency whereas it may take others a longer period of time. People are different so I would find the 3-5 year claim questionable. I agree with what you are saying.  She says that recovering from other addictions first increases the length of time.  I don't recall her mentioning any studies.  I think she is basing it on her patients.

All addictions must be dealt with prior to codependency. Sound familiar?

This comes from the 12 step/disease model which believes that codependency is at the root of all addiction. I don't know whether this is true or not but that's just what I've read.

Addiction needs to be dealt with first anyway, regardless of what mental disorder someone has. For example, someone might be suspected of having BPD but they need to be assessed after they've been sober for a while because addicts tend to act chaotically anyway. People need to be sober at least 1 year before a diagnosis of BPD can be made.

If someone just has an addiction, then mood swings etc should subside once they're sober whereas if they persist, then that's a sign that's something else is wrong. It may be a mood disorder like depression, bipolar disorder etc or else it may be a personality disorder like BPD.

[musicfan42]

Thanks for answering my questions Waifed!

"Codependent No More" is by Melody Beattie! I was getting mixed up there! It's another book on codependency- haven't read Pia Mellody's books.

I've read "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David Burns and I've found it very helpful. He lists all kinds of ways to combat thinking errors such as black and white thinking... it's really comprehensive. I did thought records for a while where I listed thinking errors when they popped into my head and over time through practice, it became easier for me to recognize when I was using black and white thinking and to replace it with a more balanced perspective. I wrote down the thought records at first and then I could do it in my head. But it took time! I actually sat down with "The Feeling Good Handbook" and studied it. I found it kinda hard at first but obviously practice helped.

I still find the concept of codependency a bit confusing so that's why I'm a bit unsure about the claim of recovering from it in 3-5 years time.

What kind of pointers does Pia Mellody offer about raising children in a healthy environment?

[Waifed]

Thanks for answering my questions Waifed!

"Codependent No More" is by Melody Beattie! I was getting mixed up there! It's another book on codependency- haven't read Pia Mellody's books.

I've read "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David Burns and I've found it very helpful. He lists all kinds of ways to combat thinking errors such as black and white thinking... it's really comprehensive. I did thought records for a while where I listed thinking errors when they popped into my head and over time through practice, it became easier for me to recognize when I was using black and white thinking and to replace it with a more balanced perspective. I wrote down the thought records at first and then I could do it in my head. But it took time! I actually sat down with "The Feeling Good Handbook" and studied it. I found it kinda hard at first but obviously practice helped.

I still find the concept of codependency a bit confusing so that's why I'm a bit unsure about the claim of recovering from it in 3-5 years time.

What kind of pointers does Pia Mellody offer about raising children in a healthy environment?

Musicfan

I think the most difficult thing with codependency is realizing and UNDERSTANDING the terms we hear over and over. When reading about things like black and white thinking you think it is a clear cut definition and it is strange to think some people aren't grey thinkers.  It is a reality smack in the face when you realize that your reality is that you ARE a black and white thinker.

Pia Melody names the 5 characteristics that a child is born with: they are valuable, vulnerable, imperfect, dependent and immature. She explains each one, discusses the effects of being raised in a dysfunctional family and a functional family. She gives examples of each which are simple but clearly explain her point. The interesting thing is that many of the things that are the social norm are actually dysfunctional. Some good examples of raising kids:  don't expect your child to be able to do things that they are not mature enough to do. Ex. 1. Don't get mad at a child if they spill their milk or are loud in church because they are not supposed to be able too (based on age). 2. A healthy child is raised to accept that nobody is perfect and that it is OK. 3. A parent must meet a child's needs, especially through nurturing and guidance. Children that are ignored don't learn proper needs and have difficulty taking care/neglecting their needs as adults. They learn to compensate their inability to understand their needs by replacing them with wants (sometimes leading to addictions). 4.  Children rely on parents for protection physically, sexually, intellectually, emotionally and spiritually. If they don't get this they grow up with poor boundaries. 5. Giving a child options (with consequences)instead of ignoring them or dictating them will lead to good self worth.  

Very general examples... .

[bb12]

I have always thought there was a little bit of "separate sides of the same coin" going on

We both have massive issues stemming from childhood, but a pwBPD looks inward for a solution and a CoDa looks outward. They become self-centred and create a false self that is beyond criticism. We fix, rescue, and put other's needs ahead of our own. If we can control other people then we will be ok. And it gives us a role.

But that is where any similarity ends.

pwCoDa have access to a true self. We are accountable... . perhaps too accountable. We are quick to blame ourselves, slow to see badness in others. We have integrity, ethics, and a desire to communicate and keep things fair.

pwBPD don't have those things, so I would not like to be clumped in with them and absolutely do NOT see my CoDa issues as a PD.

To a degree, all people are Codependent or 'Other Directed'. We are social animals and on a real level need to gauge how our other members of the troop are going. pw NPD / BPD do not possess this ability. Nothing beyond servicing their own needs.

Sure, CoDa is serious and has implications for relationships and or own sense of belonging. But it is more something to be aware of and modified, not necessarily eliminated. We talk of healthy narcissism in children, but I also believe in a healthy level of codependency in adults... . in so far as we consider others in everything we do.

bb12

[Boisnix79]

One of the main things that the CODEP and BPD have in common:

Both gives most of their attention to the BPD mate and should not be doing so.

Polar opposites in action while the same basic goal is behind each extreme. DONT LEAVE ME.