Is "Paint You Black" Lying a Form of Abuse?

[Depression = 72% of members]

okay.

This is a really retarded question.

Searched a few times just so I could avoid asking it.

The "paint you black" lying.

Is that a form of abuse?

Thanks.

[Somewhere]

okay.

This is a really retarded question.

Searched a few times just so I could avoid asking it.

The "paint you black" lying.

Is that a form of abuse?

Thanks.

[Murbay]

I think that's a very reasonable and very valid question, not retarded at all. Often wondered the same thing myself.

I guess if it's used as a form of manipulation it could be considered as emotional abuse.

If it affects you professionally or your reputation then it can be considered as slander.

A really good question to ask 

[Somewhere]

not too concerned regarding Slander, etc.

After a while most folks seem to figure out it is nutty.

I guess my question is more like intentional culpability.

I understand that it is the product of a crazed mind.  I get that.

But is the intent to harm others / *us* or are they just trying to "make up facts" (lying in less kind terms) to match what they may be feeling?

I guess in my pondering -- if it is just crazy stuff from a crazy mind -- it is sort of like a Noble Savage thing.

HOWEVER, if it is done with the intent of harm -- it is abusive?

Dunno.

[Mutt]

okay.

This is a really retarded question.

Searched a few times just so I could avoid asking it.

The "paint you black" lying.

Is that a form of abuse?

Thanks.

They paint you black, but the lying about you part to friends, family, co-workers, therapists etc... . Is called a smear campaign, villification campaign or distortion campaign and can be forms of baiting, projection, and proxy recruitment.

Is that what you mean by painted black lying?

[Somewhere]

okay.

This is a really retarded question.

Searched a few times just so I could avoid asking it.

The "paint you black" lying.

Is that a form of abuse?

Thanks.

They paint you black, but the lying about you part to friends, family, co-workers, therapists etc... . Is called a smear campaign, villification campaign or distortion campaign and can be forms of baiting, projection, and proxy recruitment.

Is that what you mean by painted black lying?

Yes. (and thank you for refining and much improving my question)

Is THAT Abuse?

[Mutt]

okay.

This is a really retarded question.

Searched a few times just so I could avoid asking it.

The "paint you black" lying.

Is that a form of abuse?

Thanks.

They paint you black, but the lying about you part to friends, family, co-workers, therapists etc... . Is called a smear campaign, villification campaign or distortion campaign and can be forms of baiting, projection, and proxy recruitment.

Is that what you mean by painted black lying?

Yes. (and thank you for refining and much improving my question)

Is THAT Abuse?

That's a good question and I honestly don't know. If it's anything it's passive aggressive behavior.

[fromheeltoheal]

The jargon can be confusing sometimes, but think about what 'painting you black' really means.  We can ether see the world in black and white, or in shades of grey.  Most things in life are actually grey, but it is possible to consider someone all good or all bad, as a means to cope.  We've all done this.  Think about someone you don't like or had a falling out with; even though they have some good qualities, you may even have liked them at one point, by ignoring those, accentuating their bad points, considering them all bad, it makes it easier in your head to exclude them from your life, justifies you hating them, whatever, but if you really think about it, they had some good qualities.  A borderline can't do that, you're either on one side of the fence or the other, black or white, there is no grey.  So now if you were to say something nasty about someone to someone else, is that abuse?  It could be slander, or gossip, or just obvious to the other person that you are hurting because you're slamming someone else.

Anyway, remember the motivation for a borderline 'painting you black'.  You've gotten close, the intimacy is triggering for the sufferer, all their feelings of shame, self loathing, fear of abandonment, whatever, surface, and as a means to cope, a means to feel better, they project all of that on you, and need to consider you the bad guy.  A borderline needs a scapegoat to make sense of their world and feel better, and you're it.  Considering they are doing all of that to feel better and survive, is that abuse?  They didn't set out to abuse you, they set out to feel better, and if that results in us being disrespected, lied to, cheated on, emasculated, all the thrills, abusive behavior at their extremes, it's best to realize sufferers have a disorder that makes it impossible to think like non-disordered folks, leave them be, and get on with living with those new lessons.

[myself]

So many of their actions are intentionally done to hurt us so yes it can be abusive.

[Mutt]

So many of their actions are intentionally done to hurt us so yes it can be abusive.

In the context of these campaigns it's to distort and take the attention off of the PD and project it.

For example, my ex had an affair for several months and was starting a distortion campaign. She was telling her friends and family that she was not happy, the marriage is not working, Mutt is abusive, emotionally, physically and financially.

The abuse came from her. She was cheating etc. She projected her actions on me and it took the attention off of her behaviors. I was a scapegoat. She garnered sympathy from the other man, family and friends.

It was all a lie. The bigger the lie. The more gullible people can be.

[Tausk]

It's immoral. It's unethical.  It's a sin. It's destructive.  It's lying.  It's mistreatment.  

Abuse?  Abuse for me refers to a dynamic where the power between me and someone else is unequal and the more powerful uses their strength for self gain and to the detriment of the weaker.

Is your ex more powerful than you?  I suffered mistreatment because I was willing to return time and time and time again. No one forced me.  I wasn't a victim.  I was a volunteer.  But having said that, it doesn't make my exes behavior right.  It's not right that she lied to me about her cheating.  But abuse?  And she can't help but paint me black now because she doesn't have the capacity to take responsibility.  Is it abuse when a mentally ill homeless man yells at me on the street?  

So for my recovery:  

I won't heal if my well being is dependent upon how other people treat me.  

I will recover only if I choose to associate with people who treat me in a supportive manner. 

Sorry, probably didn't directly answer the question, but the concept of my ex abusing me, in some way denotes that I am a victim.  And I'm finding that not accepting victim pathology is better for my recovery.

[Mutt]

Somewhere, are you going through a campaign such as this now?

[Somewhere]

Somewhere, are you going through a campaign such as this now?

Recently been.

Well, I suppose likely still going on.

I understand that it is "what they do."

Just trying to sort out if is malevolent or just nutz.

[Skip]

"Painting black" is slang term for splitting (also called all-or-nothing thinking)*.  Splitting's a defense mechanism.  We all do it to some extent.  

For example, we have members here that experienced a loved one that once idealized them and when the relationship failed, could say nothing good about them.  In both cases, this is slitting.  The slang is white (when they were idealized or overvalued) and black (when they were undervalued).

We also have members here that loved a pwBPD and were cast off and now see them as monstrous, evil beings - this is also splitting.

Slitting is distorted thinking.  The "all or nothing" swings both in both positive and negative ways.  Splitting can be very fluid - one can be overvalued one day and undervalued the next.

Is it emotional abuse?  :)efining emotional abuse is complex. It can include ignoring, rejecting, isolating, exploiting, verbally assaulting, terrorizing, neglecting, etc.  Emotional abuse is not necessarily malicious or intentional. Sometimes people are so wrapped up in their own emotional struggles they become emotionally abusive to others as a byproduct of their own struggles.

And further, a person with highly sensitive personality can feel "abused" in situations where many would not.

Depression doesn't mean alcoholism, although depression can lead to it.  In the same way, splitting doesn't mean lying, abuse, mistreatment, smear/distortion campaign, baiting, projection and its not immoral, unethical, or sin, but splitting can lead to these things.

"Proxy recruitment" is made up term from a website that has taken the concept of triangulation, a common family dynamic, and cast it as an evil deed.  If you look into triangulation, it will provide a much better understanding and ways to handle this behavior.

So, when your husband seems to twist the facts to fit his feelings, it's probably how he honestly sees things.

With all this, what are you trying to understand?  Are you trying to determine if you are in an emotionally abusive relationship?

Skip


*Splitting (also called all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism used by many people.[1] The individual tends to think in extremes (i.e., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground.)

The concept of splitting was developed by Ronald Fairbairn in his formulation of object relations theory;[2] it begins as the inability of the infant to combine the fulfilling aspects of the parents (the good object) and their unresponsive aspects (the unsatisfying object) into the same individuals, but sees the good and bad as separate. In psychoanalytic theory this functions as a defense mechanism.[3] It is a relatively common defense mechanism for people with borderline personality disorder in DSM-IV-TR.

[Mutt]

Somewhere, are you going through a campaign such as this now?

Recently been.

Well, I suppose likely still going on.

I understand that it is "what they do."

Just trying to sort out if is malevolent or just nutz.

I think it's part of their self-survival. They can't deal with shame / guilt. Speaking for my ex. She painted me black long before she left. I couldn't talk to her about anything and from what I could tell she looked liked she was losing it. She made no sense in a lot her actions, and that campaingn was to absolve responsibility / accountability. She can't look bad in anything. The split themselves as well.

[Somewhere]

So, when your husband seems to twist the facts to fit his feelings, it's probably how he honestly sees things.

With all this, what are you trying to understand?  Are you trying to determine if you are in an emotionally abusive relationship?

Skip

For what it is worth, I am the "he" and BPD is the "she."  All good on that.  13 years together, and 3 kids.

But yes, I guess from a Frog Boiling in the water perspective -- I have sort of lost my sense of what is just crazy and what I have to put my foot down and say -- THAT is enough of THIS (or that) Crap.

I have done the "ENOUGH" and shut down some of the behaviors.  No Drama Rages at all.  No Crazy Talk in front of the kids.  Stuff like that.  Hemming in the boundaries.

The various "stories" get quite incredible -- As our 11 y.o. daughter says "Ummm, Mom, that never really happened, did it?"  or "Mom has a Very Active imagination."

She has been back from Rehab a little over a year.  They "fixed" her Anorexia / Bulimia.  But that was her self-med to keep the BPD in line.  She had prior been through Drugs (legal and not so), Alcohol (and standard 12 Step), Cutting/SI. 

I guess she figured she could maintain her version of sanity with the Eating Disorder -- but Rehab took that away and she has been a ways off since, even with Therapy.   

[fromheeltoheal]

I have done the "ENOUGH" and shut down some of the behaviors.  No Drama Rages at all.  No Crazy Talk in front of the kids.  Stuff like that.  Hemming in the boundaries.

The various "stories" get quite incredible -- As our 11 y.o. daughter says "Ummm, Mom, that never really happened, did it?"  or "Mom has a Very Active imagination."

She has been back from Rehab a little over a year.  They "fixed" her Anorexia / Bulimia.  But that was her self-med to keep the BPD in line.  She had prior been through Drugs (legal and not so), Alcohol (and standard 12 Step), Cutting/SI. 

I guess she figured she could maintain her version of sanity with the Eating Disorder -- but Rehab took that away and she has been a ways off since, even with Therapy.   

Hi Somewhere-

You gave me a flashback with the eating thing: my ex's drug of choice was ice cream, and when she went through a period of dysregulation she would balloon up pretty well.  Made it a little tough to use her other drug of choice which was random sex, but somehow she managed.

Like Skip says, defining abuse is complex, but I think you're doing well with shutting down some of her behaviors, and after 13 years you're probably pretty used to her crazy.  Curious: do you see her more as a malicious person trying to hurt you or a sick one?

[Somewhere]

Curious: do you see her more as a malicious person trying to hurt you or a sick one?

Perhaps sometimes one view sometimes the other.

But as per your question -- "do you see her more" is very subjective.

I guess that was sort of my point from the beginning.  Once you have walked with Crazy you own view is blurred.

I am specifically looking for some external objective perspective on when the behavior crosses to abuse -- based on the behavior, itself.  Not so much a subjective experience about how I feel about it or even so much the basis or cause.

Just very simple:

1. Is it abuse?

2. Do they have mental capacity to know what they are doing is wrong?

Kind of digital Yes/No questions.

[musicfan42]

Curious: do you see her more as a malicious person trying to hurt you or a sick one?

Perhaps sometimes one view sometimes the other.

But as per your question -- "do you see her more" is very subjective.

I guess that was sort of my point from the beginning.  Once you have walked with Crazy you own view is blurred.

I am specifically looking for some external objective perspective on when the behavior crosses to abuse -- based on the behavior, itself.  Not so much a subjective experience about how I feel about it or even so much the basis or cause.

Just very simple:

1. Is it abuse?

2. Do they have mental capacity to know what they are doing is wrong?

Kind of digital Yes/No questions.

I've been reading up on bullying and intention does NOT matter. It doesn't matter that they didn't "intend" to hurt you. There ARE certain standards of conduct that should be expected in any kind of relationship and if the other person doesn't meet those standards, then it can be categorized as abuse.

I would categorize "painting you black" as emotional abuse.

To answer your questions:

1) Yes, it's abuse

2) Yes, they have the mental capacity to know that their actions are wrong but they deliberately want to hurt you and get back at you and regain all the power and control in the relationship.

[fromheeltoheal]

Just very simple:

1. Is it abuse?

2. Do they have mental capacity to know what they are doing is wrong?

Kind of digital Yes/No questions.

OK, I get it, and in your case I don't know enough of your story, so I still can't give you a binary answer. 

But I can tell you how I was abused, and was diagnosed with PTSD after it.  I'm not a fan of 'paint you black', I don't think it's very descriptive, but in my case we went through the idealization and then devaluation phases, meaning she was the girl of my dreams, a very effective fiction, at first, and then once she knew she had me and I wasn't perfect, she flipped the other way and I was the scumbag, the scapegoat.

That looked like:

Constant humor at my expense, belittling comments, straight-up rude behavior, no apparent concern for me or how I felt, emasculation, negative comparisons to other men, withholding sex until I 'behaved', extreme rage over nothing apparent, constant blame for everything.  I consider all of that emotional abuse, and when I tried to sit down and talk to her about them, I'd get more rage and more blame; there was no winning and no resolution.

And of course she punched the crap out of me and hit me in the face once, undeniably physical abuse.

So binary answer: yes, I was abused, that was abuse.

And yes, she knew exactly what she was doing and that it worked, having had decades of practice, but she did not have any idea how I felt, only that it worked to get the result she was looking for.  I don't really know if she had the capacity to empathize or not, I'm thinking not much, but I do know it was about her 24/7; her own sht was way too much to handle, and it's all she could do to keep the lid on it, with variable results.

So if you could share some suspect behaviors maybe we could weigh in better.  Hating you in itself doesn't qualify as abuse, hell I hate a few people but I don't abuse them, it's the behaviors that count.

[Mutt]

"If I behave" I don't know how many times I heard that.

Emotional blackmail is another form of abuse.

[Emotional blackmail] is "the use of a system of threats and punishment on a person by someone close to them in an attempt to control their behavior.

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_blackmail

[PrettyPlease]

"If I behave" I don't know how many times I heard that.

Emotional blackmail is another form of abuse.

[Emotional blackmail] is "the use of a system of threats and punishment on a person by someone close to them in an attempt to control their behavior.

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_blackmail

Interesting thread, and link. And reading that wikipedia link I see there's a section on BPD; which is interesting in relation to the OP's question, and the whole discussion. Here's the full section on BPD from the wikipedia 'emotional blackmail' link:

Borderline Personality Disorder

According to Harriet Braiker,[12] people with borderline personality disorder are particularly likely to use emotional blackmail. In a similar way, "the destructive narcissist appears to feel that they have a right to exploit others... . will resort to emotional blackmail... . and/or promote shame and guilt."[13]Some, however, would suggest that while the term "emotional blackmail" "implies some sort of devious, planned intent... . people with BPD who appear to be blackmailing usually act impulsively out of fear, loneliness, desperation, and hopelessness."[14]

What I find interesting is that those two paragraphs show the same diverging viewpoints that the responders in this thread have shown: 'yes it's emotional blackmail' -- or, 'no it's not, they're really just afraid, desperate, etc.'

So I'm inclined to go with a version of musicanfan42's response: I don't think it matters if they didn't intend to hurt you -- but I also don't think it matters if they did intend to hurt you. (Even the professionals, in the general case, can't agree which of these is happening.)

What remains, and is important, is that the BPDs' behavior contains things that a rational and well-balanced, self-respecting person considers "not in my best interest" (as Ironmanfalls put it elegantly somewhere). And boundaries to maintain that best interest need to be applied regardless of the BPDs' intention (or, more accurately, the words society will eventually agree to apply to their intention).

 

PP

[Tausk]

"If I behave" I don't know how many times I heard that.

Emotional blackmail is another form of abuse.

[Emotional blackmail] is "the use of a system of threats and punishment on a person by someone close to them in an attempt to control their behavior.

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_blackmail

Interesting thread, and link. And reading that wikipedia link I see there's a section on BPD; which is interesting in relation to the OP's question, and the whole discussion. Here's the full section on BPD from the wikipedia 'emotional blackmail' link:

Borderline Personality Disorder

According to Harriet Braiker,[12] people with borderline personality disorder are particularly likely to use emotional blackmail. In a similar way, "the destructive narcissist appears to feel that they have a right to exploit others... . will resort to emotional blackmail... . and/or promote shame and guilt."[13]Some, however, would suggest that while the term "emotional blackmail" "implies some sort of devious, planned intent... . people with BPD who appear to be blackmailing usually act impulsively out of fear, loneliness, desperation, and hopelessness."[14]

What I find interesting is that those two paragraphs show the same diverging viewpoints that the responders in this thread have shown: 'yes it's emotional blackmail' -- or, 'no it's not, they're really just afraid, desperate, etc.'

So I'm inclined to go with a version of musicanfan42's response: I don't think it matters if they didn't intend to hurt you -- but I also don't think it matters if they did intend to hurt you. (Even the professionals, in the general case, can't agree which of these is happening.)

What remains, and is important, is that the BPDs' behavior contains things that a rational and well-balanced, self-respecting person considers "not in my best interest" (as Ironmanfalls put it elegantly somewhere). And boundaries to maintain that best interest need to be applied regardless of the BPDs' intention (or, more accurately, the words society will eventually agree to apply to their intention).

 

PP

But how we view the interaction is can help us to detach.  Perhaps this was a better topic for the Leaving Board.  

One the self inventory board, what aspects of my "self" are affected by the devaluations and why am I vulnerable to them is important.  Or what part of my "self" allowed my ego and Superego to vulnerable to a person who can devalue me so easily.

For me it was FOO issues.  Lonely child schema.  Vulnerable Narcissism.  Self esteem issues.  OCD on my part... .

Looking at myself is a phase in recover but comes after some based line detachment and depersonalization.  It's not really self inventory, if the only emotions that are currently in my mind are:  Anger, Victim and abuse mentality, resentment, bitterness, revenge... .

I'm not saying that the above emotions are not justified or real.  They are.  Anger is part of the phases of grieve, but more subtly all the above emotions are part of the phases.  But it recovery is more productive me when I am not over whelmed with what others have done to me, but why I am who I am.  

[Somewhere]

Looping back toward my OP . . .

Overall, this went a little further afield with the philosophy than I would have guessed.  I was really trying to stay in the functional realm.

Here is what I am forming in my mind.

If you are around abusive people . . .  they are going to seek and be abusive to those they can.  It is what they do, right?  Else the words would not have their meaning.

BPD folks seem to very carefully select and target their abusive behaviors.

On the other side -- the targets -- are *us* as it were.  

THAT was I chose L6 Taking Personal Inventory as the location for this (please do not start the screwball forum changing).

Being abused and tolerating is ABOUT ME.  AND then ME choosing to STOP it.

Reading through the responses -- You all have helped me sort through some past experience I have watched -- at first without even knowing what I was watching -- as she has pulled this sort of crap on other people for years.

She had made up all sorts of Drama Abuse Tales regarding her dad before I met him.  So I looked at him as some sort of perp -- before a combination of recants by her, and after sorting things out, I figured out her games.

When her folks split up she had desperately wanted to go with her dad, but wound up forced to stay with her mom.  She felt abandoned -- THE Classic Trigger for a BPD Mind.  (the genetics were already in place from her mom's side of the family)  After that she has been off rocker since.  In T at 11, meds, Alcoholism, Drugs, Cutting/SI, Eating Disorder -- Classic BPD Traits.

But she has pulled this same sort of crap on Mom, as well.  A Summer ago, when we were staying at her mom's house for a month, while switching houses (she had pulled some crap refusing to select a new house when we moved -- driving our family homeless -- just for sport and drama) -- her Mom finally dropped out of enabling Codie mode for a couple days, and told her to help me get the kids back in a house.  To "punish" her mom, she took the kids and went camping in the woods -- All Just So her mom would come home to an empty house, with no idea what happened.  Being Emotional Abusive to her mom.  I called and tipped off her mom what was going on.  

But since Rehab (Eating Disorder) a little over a year ago, she has been pulling the Lies and Fake Drama crap on me.  Same as she does to anyone else.

So thank you --

My Conclusion:

1. It is abuse.

2. It is done with malice, knowledge and forethought, and is intentional.

AND

3. I should put a STOP to it.

[Tausk]

My Conclusion:

1. It is abuse.

2. It is done with malice, knowledge and forethought, and is intentional.

AND

3. I should put a STOP to it.

Intentional:  If a person has almost no capacity for free will in their behavior, is that behavior intentional?

Q: How do you plan to STOP it?  

You are right in that the behavior is inappropriate.  And we need to look at ourselves to determine why it happened, and then to take actions to not permit it anymore.   But, I've found that my responses in this case is much much for productive if take them from a perspective of detachment and depersonalization.  

The perspective of justified anger is petty close to justice or revenge for me.  What is the purpose of inflicting revenge on a traumatized three-year old who lives in her own nightmarish existence?

As far a justice is concerned, the same applies.  And in fact, my ex lives in in more pain and terror that I could handle for a heartbeat.  There's already no justice in that existence.  I don't need to mete out anymore punishment. 

And in fact, my ex's behavior was justified in her mind.  She has a Disorder.  The Disorder causes her to justifiably punish herself and others.  And in fact, no one suffers from more pain and destruction from her actions than her.

For me, it's simply the establishment of boundaries.  Call the police if necessary.  Block access.  Look at it as overflow sewer water that needs to be diverted away from oneself.  

[musicfan42]

For me it was FOO issues.  Lonely child schema.  Vulnerable Narcissism.  Self esteem issues.  OCD on my part... .

What is "vulnerable narcissism"? I've never heard of that term before- surely it's paradoxical? Altruism is helping other people/kindness/charity whereas narcissism is about being extremely self-centered. Do you mean codependency? I'm confused so I would appreciate further elaboration.

[Mutt]

You are right in that the behavior is inappropriate.  And we need to look at ourselves to determine why it happened, and then to take actions to not permit it anymore.   But, I've found that my responses in this case is much much for productive if take them from a perspective of detachment and depersonalization.  

As it has been pointed out before this depends on POV. Somewhere is entitled to feel / think about it as abuse.  There's no right or wrong.

[Take2]

Intentional:  If a person has almost no capacity for free will in their behavior, is that behavior intentional?

I have to weigh in here and say it's absolutely a form of abuse - speaking only from my experience - which was with an extremely abusive BPD man.  He is capable of acting completely rational in front of other people in the blink of an eye after intensely raging at me for delusions he made up in his head.  He absolutely has control of his behavior - except with me.  But is that loss of behavior?  or a calculated move.  I can't help but now believe it's totally intentional.  It's his way to control me - even after the break up. 

If someone is able to control their emotions around others, they are able to control it around you.  And raging at you or painting you black with lies is without a doubt a form of abuse from this type of person... .

[musicfan42]

Intentional:  If a person has almost no capacity for free will in their behavior, is that behavior intentional?

I have to weigh in here and say it's absolutely a form of abuse - speaking only from my experience - which was with an extremely abusive BPD man.  He is capable of acting completely rational in front of other people in the blink of an eye after intensely raging at me for delusions he made up in his head.  He absolutely has control of his behavior - except with me.  But is that loss of behavior?  or a calculated move.  I can't help but now believe it's totally intentional.  It's his way to control me - even after the break up. 

If someone is able to control their emotions around others, they are able to control it around you.  And raging at you or painting you black with lies is without a doubt a form of abuse from this type of person... .

Yes!

Excellent point Take2.

I've read that abusers are systematic... that they can be behave very well around certain people and only target certain people. They may suck up to powerful and influential people e.g. work mates, their boss etc but then behave in an abusive way towards their romantic partner behind closed doors.

The abuser may choose to be abusive towards their romantic partner for a number of reasons:

-If it's a male abuser, then he may have a hatred of women. He may hold patriarchal views of women.

-If it's a female abuser, then she may hate men and think that "all men are the same".

-The abuser may earn more money than the victim so they can exert financial control over the person in that way

-The abuser may think that the victim is "an easy target"... maybe the victim has a passive communication style and doesn't set down enough boundaries.

I'm sure there are other reasons but that's all I can think of right now. I've read up domestic abuse literature and it mentions this kind of thing in it.

I've also read that a personality disorder is NOT an excuse for abusive behavior.

[ucmeicu2]

Intentional:  If a person has almost no capacity for free will in their behavior, is that behavior intentional?

I have to weigh in here and say it's absolutely a form of abuse - speaking only from my experience - which was with an extremely abusive BPD man.  He is capable of acting completely rational in front of other people in the blink of an eye after intensely raging at me for delusions he made up in his head.  He absolutely has control of his behavior - except with me.  But is that loss of behavior?  or a calculated move.  I can't help but now believe it's totally intentional.  It's his way to control me - even after the break up. 

If someone is able to control their emotions around others, they are able to control it around you.  And raging at you or painting you black with lies is without a doubt a form of abuse from this type of person... .

what if a person loses it around another certain person because that certain person is pushing their buttons?  do you believe Take2 that it's even remotely possible that you were pushing his buttons, intentional or not? what if someone is pushing another's buttons without even knowing it?  is that abuse?  button pushing can be really hard to not get sucked into ~ some are more successful than others... .  

wrt the abuse being intentional?  i'd image it's quite circumstantial and that the truth probably lies somewhere in between:  sometimes abuse/BPD behaviors are intentional and sometimes they're not.  sometimes people can control themselves with everyone except 1 person that gets under their skin or pushes their buttons and sometimes they can't. 

we teach people how to treat us.  so perhaps a more valuable track is to explore why we taught someone to treat us a certain way?  why did we tolerate "abuse"?

PS if a "non" tries to pin all the behaviors in a r/s on the pw/BPD, call what they didn't like "abuse", is that a form of Painting Black?  that's what i used to do, basically putting myself in the same camp as my ex pwBPD! 

maybe i'm missing the point of this thread, but it takes 2 to tango... . and there are 2 sides to every story.   our aim here at L6 is to put the focus on ourselves now rather than still the pwBPD, right?

[Somewhere]

Intentional:  If a person has almost no capacity for free will in their behavior, is that behavior intentional?

IF.  That is a Mighty BIG IF.

And certainly does not apply to our case.

I have watched the crap go down.

Big difference between Can Not and Will Not.

Q: How do you plan to STOP it?  

Same way you deal with any chronic problem. 

Pay it WHOLE lot of attention.