Do you love your SO? If so, how?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Recently I have seen several threads about why we stay and one about what do you love about your pwBPD. Even a thread about what love means to them and some commented about what adult love is. This made me think about how many people still have loving feelings for their SO. I would definitely like to hear from the members who have been here awhile and seem to be doing well in their relationship.

Do you still feel that you love (however you define that) your pwBPD?

If so, how do you maintain (or revive) these feelings in spite of what you have been (or currently going) through?

If not, do you think the feelings will ever return?

How do you soldier on for years (using the tools to maintain peace) without any real intimacy? Or have you been able to revive it?


I am in a difficult place emotionally right now and I am looking for guidance to find my way back to something more positive. I have realized some of my posts have been very negative recently and I have finally admitted to myself that I am very depressed. I do not feel much for my gf at the present time even though things appear to be going well. She has gotten upset a few times, but has not raged at me since a terrible fight we had in early November. She has improved from therapy and medication. So the raging has stopped, but I do not trust her or feel close to her at all. I have made it this far because of the children and I think my love for them keeps me from intensely disliking my gf. I am trying to let go of the terrible things that happened over the last 2+ years, but I have built a wall that I do not know how to take down. I do not feel comfortable talking to her about anything of substance and her words mean nothing to me. I am very careful about what I say about work, family or friends because I never know how she will twist it in her mind.

I know I have serious issues of my own and I have been trying to focus on them since things have calmed down some. I want to move in a positive direction, but I have this cloud of hopelessness that follows me everywhere. I do not see how I can get my feelings back for her or go years feeling alone in this relationship. I also worry that my issues make it impossible for me to have a healthy relationship with anyone.

Any sage advice would be great. I hope everyone has a great Valentine's Day   I know how stressful times like this can be.

[Love Is Not Enough]

Recently I have seen several threads about why we stay and one about what do you love about your pwBPD. Even a thread about what love means to them and some commented about what adult love is. This made me think about how many people still have loving feelings for their SO. I would definitely like to hear from the members who have been here awhile and seem to be doing well in their relationship.

Do you still feel that you love (however you define that) your pwBPD?

If so, how do you maintain (or revive) these feelings in spite of what you have been (or currently going) through?

If not, do you think the feelings will ever return?

How do you soldier on for years (using the tools to maintain peace) without any real intimacy? Or have you been able to revive it?


I am in a difficult place emotionally right now and I am looking for guidance to find my way back to something more positive. I have realized some of my posts have been very negative recently and I have finally admitted to myself that I am very depressed. I do not feel much for my gf at the present time even though things appear to be going well. She has gotten upset a few times, but has not raged at me since a terrible fight we had in early November. She has improved from therapy and medication. So the raging has stopped, but I do not trust her or feel close to her at all. I have made it this far because of the children and I think my love for them keeps me from intensely disliking my gf. I am trying to let go of the terrible things that happened over the last 2+ years, but I have built a wall that I do not know how to take down. I do not feel comfortable talking to her about anything of substance and her words mean nothing to me. I am very careful about what I say about work, family or friends because I never know how she will twist it in her mind.

I know I have serious issues of my own and I have been trying to focus on them since things have calmed down some. I want to move in a positive direction, but I have this cloud of hopelessness that follows me everywhere. I do not see how I can get my feelings back for her or go years feeling alone in this relationship. I also worry that my issues make it impossible for me to have a healthy relationship with anyone.

Any sage advice would be great. I hope everyone has a great Valentine's Day   I know how stressful times like this can be.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[SleepsOnSofa]

I don't have any sage advice for you, LoveIs, just empathy and fellowship. Reading what you wrote about putting a wall up around yourself that you don't know how to take down, I felt that I could have written that myself. I remember loving my wife, while we were dating, but I have no idea how to get back to that feeling. So much has happened, so many good things and times ruined, by the pointless, meaningless, unfocused anger that has been aimed at me over the years, I can't imagine being "in love" with her anymore. I still care for her, I wish I could make her happy, I wish she could be happy, but I know that my own life would be so much simpler and more enjoyable without the constant infusion of stress, conflict, and drama that she can't keep from producing.

Now it's the end of the work day on Valentine's Day, and the start of a week off from work (I'm a teacher, and we have our mid-winter break coming. Why we have that break, I have no idea... . ), and once I leave here, I'll be going home to nine non-stop days of tiptoeing through minefield. I brought home flowers and candy Wednesday, ahead of the storm, so I may be okay for V-Day... . but maybe not. We'll see. But I know that I'm facing nine days of tension and anxiety, because as soon as I forget, feel comfortable, and stop editing everything I say to minimize triggers, I'm going to mention something that will set her off, and then the rest of the week will be hell.

I stay because I won't leave my 6 year old daughter alone to deal with this. But I never look forward to days off from work. Even when they go well, I'm so nervous the whole time that I can't enjoy them.

[Love Is Not Enough]

I don't have any sage advice for you, LoveIs, just empathy and fellowship.

Thank you for your reply SoS. I have been reading your posts this week and my thoughts are with you as you begin this 9 day "break". I know the anxiety and stress all too well. Just writing my post and reading your response has made me feel better. My thoughts will be with you and your family this coming week. Spend time with your daughter. I bet that makes your day better 

Quick question. If she made significant improvements and did not rage at you constantly, do you think your feelings would come back? This would not include the real intimacy though because you would expect it to trigger her, hypothetically speaking.

[waverider]

Difficulty for me i think is that the "respect" component is hard to maintain, and this tends to push the RS into more "carer" mode than "partner' mode.

[pixiecat]

I can relate to what you're saying Love is Not Enough. 

I could've answered this until very recently as 'Yes', but I'm going the same crisis at the moment of feeling like I can't feel the love.  I believe I do, deep down, and it's always come back but I'm numb again and wondering if the love has really gone.  Sorry, I don't have the answers to your questions.

[hergestridge]

Firstly, romantic love is not a scientific fact! I don't remember being in love in the traditional sense since my teens, and then it was in a very childish and naive fashion.

I am in a romantic relationship with my wife, which means that I am sexually attracted to her, I sleep with her and I am sexually faithful to her. I share my days and my life with her. In my world it's a deal.

I meet other women who are more attractive and actually nicer than my wife, but I have decided to stick with my wife and I'm content.

My wife on the other hand has complained openly to me about how she's gone through periods of having "almost no feelings for me", for which she expects sympathy from me. Her definition of love is different from mine. She doesn't see herself as the provider of love, but the receiver. She "runs out love". She "falls in love". She also seems to think that there is some kind of divine/metaphysical dimension to love, because she always questions wether her own (or others) feelings of love are "true", as if the person who owns the feeling was not cabable of deciding that herself.

"Respect" sure is difficult. Long before I even suspected my wife had BPD I used to tell her "There is nothing I want more in the world but to treat you like a grown up, but you just won't let me!". Our discussions landed there again and again. She always put herself in the position of an unruly child complaining to her dad.

[Love Is Not Enough]

Hello everyone. I wanted to drop in to let everyone know I have not abandoned this thread. I am very sick today and going to pick up my meds in a minute. I have many things to say, but they will have to wait until Monday. Hopefully my head is clear by then. Plus I am home all weekend and it is very hard to post on an iPad with my gf around. I have many quotes to do 

Thank you so much to everyone who has posted so far. I want to give a special thanks to waverider as a "sage" that I was hoping would respond. I really look up to you and hope I can be as strong as I believe you are today. I have more questions for you... .

I hope everyone has a great weekend and stays safe. My thoughts will be with SoS and pixiecat during this trying time. I know this tread will help us on our journey and we always have each other.

Sorry for being so sappy    Everyone be cool 

[Remington]

Firstly, romantic love is not a scientific fact! I don't remember being in love in the traditional sense since my teens, and then it was in a very childish and naive fashion.

I am in a romantic relationship with my wife, which means that I am sexually attracted to her, I sleep with her and I am sexually faithful to her. I share my days and my life with her. In my world it's a deal.

I meet other women who are more attractive and actually nicer than my wife, but I have decided to stick with my wife and I'm content.

My wife on the other hand has complained openly to me about how she's gone through periods of having "almost no feelings for me", for which she expects sympathy from me. Her definition of love is different from mine. She doesn't see herself as the provider of love, but the receiver. She "runs out love". She "falls in love". She also seems to think that there is some kind of divine/metaphysical dimension to love, because she always questions wether her own (or others) feelings of love are "true", as if the person who owns the feeling was not cabable of deciding that herself.

"Respect" sure is difficult. Long before I even suspected my wife had BPD I used to tell her "There is nothing I want more in the world but to treat you like a grown up, but you just won't let me!". Our discussions landed there again and again. She always put herself in the position of an unruly child complaining to her dad.

Thanks for writing this out.  It took some effort, I am sure.

I can totally relate to your post.

Love, adult love, mature love -- involves a commitment and stability.  It doesn't change with the wind. It is not simply lust and infatuation, infact, later on, lust and infatuation may not be present at all.  Sexual attraction or chemistry is helpful, yet as you mention, this is avail all around us. It is a decision, a commitment that keeps long term relationships stable.

Thanks for your post.

Cheers,

Remington

[waverider]

Always wondered how you define love. Best example that I think answers this is ':)o you often think about that person when they are not with you and wish they were with you to see and share the experiences you are experiencing, or are they rarely thought of when you are doing things by yourself?".

Do you prefer "shared time" or "your" time?

For most of us I suspect we regularly fluctuate between yes and no as answers to these questions. It is this lack of consistency that leaves us doubting and confused as to where our own thoughts lay. This leaves battling with guilt and sense of duty.

How can we be emotionally regulated in this aspect when we are so closely tied to such an unstable emotional influence? The foundations of the RS are constantly being undermined whilst we are trying to build the "big dream". It crashes down and we have to start again. It is draining, so seeking release from it is understandable

[MissyM]

I haven't been around here for a while, but I would have to say in a more detached way.  There has to be more separateness with my dBPDh than I think I have had to have in other relationships.  When I can keep that up, things seen to go more smoothly.  It is hard for me, as I am codependent, but I am getting better at it.

[SweetCharlotte]

I love him passionately and consistently.

We have had some hard times, but we get along better now.

It is a long-distance relationship/commuter marriage. That may actually make it easier for us.

[waverider]

It is a long-distance relationship/commuter marriage. That may actually make it easier for us.

Quite possibly, it is the endless in your face that wears most folks out.

[mgl210]

LoveIS,

While I am no expert of this field or the guru of gurus. I can offer some insight... . First off, however let me tell you that I give you credit for sticking it out and trying your darnest to do whatever you can to make it work...

I guess I can just go by my exp with being on/off with someone who has BPD.Its draining, isn't it? My ex and I have been on/off for about six recycles and to be honest, there will be more more and likely.  I can just go by my personal exp with each recycle. I try to constantly remind her that I am there and not going anywhere and that it needs to be communication if the rs is going to work. I know that there is more to a rs than just communication, but at least *my thought here* is if I can know when these doubts are starting I can somewhat nip them in the bud and replace them with more pos enforcements of letting her know that I do want to be with her. 

Its alot of challenges ahead. No doubt about that. But I hope that you have a strong support system, which I know you do bc you are on this board. Best wishes

MGL

[Bstrugglin]

I am new here, and I also have no solid answer, sorry. I also long for the time when our love and her emotions were sincere and heartfelt. when I wanted to come straight home from work to see her, not circle the block in anticipation of whatever accusation or verbal abuse I was surely gonna encounter.  I want nothing more than to believe that I could truly love her again and there would be a final chapter to this horror, but I find myself doubting it every day.     how do you really forget the things that have beat you to the ground, and lies to ruin your name and credibility, and words that slice you wide open?i sacrifice my pride and self respect and mental clarity for my 4 yr old son and my absolute love for him! until someone finds a miraculous cure or my will becomes exhausted, I,m "I am sittin' here in limbo" with ya... .    I wish you all the luck... . stay as true to yourself as you can!

[waverider]

I am new here, and I also have no solid answer, sorry. I also long for the time when our love and her emotions were sincere and heartfelt. when I wanted to come straight home from work to see her, not circle the block in anticipation of whatever accusation or verbal abuse I was surely gonna encounter.  I want nothing more than to believe that I could truly love her again and there would be a final chapter to this horror, but I find myself doubting it every day.     how do you really forget the things that have beat you to the ground, and lies to ruin your name and credibility, and words that slice you wide open?i sacrifice my pride and self respect and mental clarity for my 4 yr old son and my absolute love for him! until someone finds a miraculous cure or my will becomes exhausted, I,m "I am sittin' here in limbo" with ya... .    I wish you all the luck... . stay as true to yourself as you can!

A bit like coming home and be expected to hug a suicide bomber and pretend life is wonderful. It is hard to ignore that explosive vest regardless of who is underneath it.

[Love Is Not Enough]

I try to constantly remind her that I am there and not going anywhere and that it needs to be communication if the rs is going to work. I know that there is more to a rs than just communication, but at least *my thought here* is if I can know when these doubts are starting I can somewhat nip them in the bud and replace them with more pos enforcements of letting her know that I do want to be with her. 

I agree with you on the positive reinforcement and reassurance, but it never seems to be enough. This weekend I was waiting forever at the pharmacy for my meds and she texts me to find out whats taking so long. I had texted her everything I had been doing so she wouldn't have any surprises to get upset about. I had also stopped by work (I am the GM of a 24/7 business) and she is jealous of some of my employees who she has never even met. She insinuated that I was spending time with my staff and then said "as long as that waste of a college education knows I will cut her t*ts off". Really? I laughed it off because I had decided to have a good day no matter what. I didn't engage her and she was fine after I had been home an hour. It just makes it hard to connect with someone who thinks like this.

Difficulty for me i think is that the "respect" component is hard to maintain, and this tends to push the RS into more "carer" mode than "partner' mode.

Exactly. We have to be the adult in every situation. Which would be fine with me if I didn't meet resistance at every turn. If you want to be "cared" for then you need to have less opinions about what others decide for you. It would make my "career" easier to accomplish 

I haven't been around here for a while, but I would have to say in a more detached way.

I agree with you and I believe that is how I hang onto the little bit of sanity I have left.

Firstly, romantic love is not a scientific fact!

I am in a romantic relationship with my wife, which means that I am sexually attracted to her, I sleep with her and I am sexually faithful to her. I share my days and my life with her. In my world it's a deal.

I meet other women who are more attractive and actually nicer than my wife, but I have decided to stick with my wife and I'm content.

Love, adult love, mature love -- involves a commitment and stability.  It doesn't change with the wind. It is not simply lust and infatuation, infact, later on, lust and infatuation may not be present at all.  Sexual attraction or chemistry is helpful, yet as you mention, this is avail all around us. It is a decision, a commitment that keeps long term relationships stable.

hergestridge and Remington, I agree. I have been thinking alot about my definition of love from reading the other threads recently and it really does come down to commitment. I logically know the highs from being on the pedestal were just a fantasy and I do not ever expect to get back to the honeymoon phase. I think I am just really craving intimacy and security within the relationship. So I think I need to make a plan to improve that or work through accepting what I have now may be "as good as it gets".

Always wondered how you define love. Best example that I think answers this is ':)o you often think about that person when they are not with you and wish they were with you to see and share the experiences you are experiencing, or are they rarely thought of when you are doing things by yourself?".

Do you prefer "shared time" or "your" time?

For most of us I suspect we regularly fluctuate between yes and no as answers to these questions. It is this lack of consistency that leaves us doubting and confused as to where our own thoughts lay. This leaves battling with guilt and sense of duty.

How can we be emotionally regulated in this aspect when we are so closely tied to such an unstable emotional influence? The foundations of the RS are constantly being undermined whilst we are trying to build the "big dream". It crashes down and we have to start again. It is draining, so seeking release from it is understandable

Exactly. Wow. I do like having shared experiences with her. I just hate that I always feel I have to be guarded about everything. I also want to have a life of my own. I know that is something I have resentments about because I feel like I always have to be concerned about her reactions. I try to do things for myself, but they usually end up being more trouble than they are worth. Most of the time I do not enjoy myself because I have to stick to some time schedule I have set to try and alleviate her anxieties. It's always about her... .

until someone finds a miraculous cure or my will becomes exhausted, I,m "I am sittin' here in limbo" with ya... .    I wish you all the luck... . stay as true to yourself as you can!

A bit like coming home and be expected to hug a suicide bomber and pretend life is wonderful. It is hard to ignore that explosive vest regardless of who is underneath it.

Unfortunately, this about sums it up 

Hang in there Bstrugglin. Hopefully working the lessons will improve your situation. Stay strong!



Thank you to everyone who has responded so far. Thinking about all of this and getting different perspectives has helped me adjust my expectations accordingly. I do not think I will ever have those warm fuzzy feelings again and that is fine. My hope is that if she continues to improve, then one day I may be able to share more intimacy and feel safe within the RS. I think that is what I want most. To be able to share my life with her without being terrorized for it. I realize it is a commitment and I think that is what it really comes down to.

I was trying to find the names of the phases and came back to the article on this site. I read the sidebar again and I think this applies: "So yes, the love is “real”, but only in the sense of how it feels to the person with BPD: the feelings seem real, they feel like love. But it’s not love because it’s based on need rather than on true caring and intimacy, which is the real love we all deserve." ~Oceanheart

Thank you again Oceanheart for reminding me of that. As long as my major boundaries are respected, I will continue to commit myself to the relationship and to caring. I will do my best to foster intimacy within the relationship and hope that things improve over time. I commit to conducting myself in a positive and loving way so that I can model for her what, I believe, a healthy relationship looks like.

I remember reading in one of my books (Loving a Borderline I think) that it takes a lot of compassion to make a relationship like this work. That is a very true statement. I think those of us here on the staying board have a great deal of it 

[waverider]

I also want to have a life of my own. I know that is something I have resentments about because I feel like I always have to be concerned about her reactions. I try to do things for myself, but they usually end up being more trouble than they are worth. Most of the time I do not enjoy myself because I have to stick to some time schedule I have set to try and alleviate her anxieties. It's always about her... .

I have broken through this barrier to a certain degree, but it did cause a lot of trauma along the way, includes wrist slashing, smashing things, intense conflicts. As an example one of my interest is kayak fishing. So for example if the weather conditions look fine tomorrow I can decide that i will be packing the kayak on the car, head off before dawn spend the day on the bay and be back early evening. No amount of emotional levering will stop that. She has come to accept this and no longer even tries. it becomes part of her environment and she adapted.

I will have my "me time', in exchange I probably make less fuss about allowing other aspects of her neediness.

My partner stills goes through self harm and OD episodes, but these things are not being projected on me as the cause. It is possible to make your own life in this chaos, but you may have to break a lot of eggs on the way.

Much of the BPD nonsense is going to happen anyway, it is whether you allow it to be pinned on you as the reason that makes the difference.

Blame will seek you out wherever you hide until such time as blame becomes ineffective as a soothing tool

[Love Is Not Enough]

Much of the BPD nonsense is going to happen anyway, it is whether you allow it to be pinned on you as the reason that makes the difference.

Blame will seek you out wherever you hide until such time as blame becomes ineffective as a soothing tool

So true waverider. I logically know not to allow her to pin it to me. I have done better with that recently and do make myself do different activities. It certainly does sound like you deal with a lot. I had not realized that until I came across a recent incident that you posted about. You must be a mental Titan! How or what do you do to not worry about her while you are gone so that you can enjoy what you are doing?

My gf is more vengeful and less about turning it in on herself. She visited an ex bf the last trip I went on and it was very hurtful to me. I have a big hangup about being taken advantage of and not knowing. I guess I have to get over that and just accept that it may take me awhile to find out if she cheats on me. It just makes the relationship feel so empty always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Thank you for all of your insights into my issue. They have really helped to sort all of this out in my head.

[waverider]

How or what do you do to not worry about her while you are gone so that you can enjoy what you are doing?

There is no golden tip for this, its just endless repeats of the same old stuff and you never can make a difference. Realization you no longer have a life. I started small, with regular weekly commitments things that you could take or leave so you could be objective about it. Alanon meetings were an early example for me. Then once you set an example that you are serious you can move on to more adventurous things. The reward you feel makes you realize you can't go backwards. You job is to support not save. Being a rescuer, can create, or at least reinforce victim mode

I cant stop my partner self harming or OD, as this is always late at night my boundary is I will turn my phone off and go to bed and will not be called in the middle of the night to pick her up. This is her stuff to own the consequences not mine. If she encroaches on your free time with whining phone calls, the phone gets turned off.

may take me awhile to find out if she cheats on me. It just makes the relationship feel so empty always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

At the end of the day it is not the actual cheating that is the issue it is the lack of trust she is creating living with "waiting for the other shoe to drop". If you want to make boundaries about this make it about the attitude rather than discovered facts, which can always be "fudged". "I will not live in an environment where I can't trust my partner".

[bpbreakout]

Thanks for your post. I wonder if you would feel like you have "serious issues" if you were not with pwBPD ? No doubt you have a lot of negative feedback a lot of the time I hope you are not being too hard on yourself, we all know the **** you are going through.

I'm not 16 any more so for me love is more like a choice we make about about how we treat people on a day to day basis rather than a spontaneous feeling. For my BPDw is definately about how she feels at the time and on the occasions she seems to love me it's idealisation which wierdly doesn't make me feel loved at all. My love for her has been more about standing by her through difficult times and listening to her troubles and to some degree doing things for her which she can't or won't do for herself. I don't feel like there has been much in return. The romantic side is difficult as I also have no wish to be intimate with someone who insults me and puts me down though I am physically attracted to her when she is not raging, picking fights and putting down , obviously with BPD this is a major issue. I have children with BPDw so I love her as mother of my children which means that if we ever seperated (which I am thinking about) I would look out for her (with the right boundaries !) and help the children with any issues they had with her in the future. To be honest I don't think we are compatible & to a large (but not all) degree its the BPD and what she calls love isn't really what I call love and I have very rarely felt we are on same wavelength. I find it hard to respect her because of the way she treats me and the children though I get that's all part of BPD.

If circumstances were different or they change in the future I have no doubt I have a lot to offer someone else and I could enjoy a far more rewarding relationship with the right person which would involve mutual respect, fun, sex, companionship, common goals and the odd hicup (I think that's "mature love".

[Love Is Not Enough]

Thanks for your post. I wonder if you would feel like you have "serious issues" if you were not with pwBPD ? No doubt you have a lot of negative feedback a lot of the time I hope you are not being too hard on yourself, we all know the **** you are going through.

I'm not 16 any more so for me love is more like a choice we make about about how we treat people on a day to day basis rather than a spontaneous feeling. For my BPDw is definately about how she feels at the time and on the occasions she seems to love me it's idealisation which wierdly doesn't make me feel loved at all. My love for her has been more about standing by her through difficult times and listening to her troubles and to some degree doing things for her which she can't or won't do for herself. I don't feel like there has been much in return. The romantic side is difficult as I also have no wish to be intimate with someone who insults me and puts me down though I am physically attracted to her when she is not raging, picking fights and putting down , obviously with BPD this is a major issue. I have children with BPDw so I love her as mother of my children which means that if we ever seperated (which I am thinking about) I would look out for her (with the right boundaries !) and help the children with any issues they had with her in the future. To be honest I don't think we are compatible & to a large (but not all) degree its the BPD and what she calls love isn't really what I call love and I have very rarely felt we are on same wavelength. I find it hard to respect her because of the way she treats me and the children though I get that's all part of BPD.

If circumstances were different or they change in the future I have no doubt I have a lot to offer someone else and I could enjoy a far more rewarding relationship with the right person which would involve mutual respect, fun, sex, companionship, common goals and the odd hicup (I think that's "mature love".

To answer your question, I have become more dysfunctional in my life because of this, but I had a lot of bad things going on in my head before I got myself into this. I believe these issues got me into this RS and have held me here for as long as they have. The root of all of this is growing up with an alcoholic father who stopped drinking but continued to rage. I see now he had many NPD/BPD qualities and I found out on his death bed about severe abuse he suffered as a child. I was the youngest and he did his best after he stopped drinking by spending time with me, but the verbal abuse did a lot of damage. I have always known this, but this RS has forced me to deal with and improve myself. It's the silver lining many of us experience by going through this. So hopefully this experience has not been for nothing.

I agree with your conclusion. I am starting to see the same in myself. With whatever decision you make, I hope you find happiness with either your wife or on a new path. I'll be rooting for you!

At the end of the day it is not the actual cheating that is the issue it is the lack of trust she is creating living with "waiting for the other shoe to drop". If you want to make boundaries about this make it about the attitude rather than discovered facts, which can always be "fudged". "I will not live in an environment where I can't trust my partner".

Thank you again. I am really going to think about this statement today. It makes a lot of sense and I feel better just reading the boundary.

What do I do if I feel like the boundary is being crossed? What is reasonable?

[CPWUSAF33]

Now it's the end of the work day on Valentine's Day, and the start of a week off from work (I'm a teacher, and we have our mid-winter break coming. Why we have that break, I have no idea... . ), and once I leave here, I'll be going home to nine non-stop days of tiptoeing through minefield. I brought home flowers and candy Wednesday, ahead of the storm, so I may be okay for V-Day... . but maybe not. We'll see. But I know that I'm facing nine days of tension and anxiety, because as soon as I forget, feel comfortable, and stop editing everything I say to minimize triggers, I'm going to mention something that will set her off, and then the rest of the week will be hell.

I stay because I won't leave my 6 year old daughter alone to deal with this. But I never look forward to days off from work. Even when they go well, I'm so nervous the whole time that I can't enjoy them.

You have successfully described my life EXACTLY in two paragraphs!

[waverider]

What do I do if I feel like the boundary is being crossed? What is reasonable?

Whatever works to remove the feeling,. Reasonable has nothing to do with it. Boundaries are in effect a necessary protective selfish act, otherwise you end up in negotiated compromise which at the end of the day usually does not achieve the desired result.

The ultimate boundary for some people will prove to be leaving a RS altogether. Is this reasonable? Yes if that is what it takes for someone to isolate themselves from a certain situation. It may take trial and error for you to work out what is right for you, but no one else can tell you what that is.

[JMS]

It is a long-distance relationship/commuter marriage. That may actually make it easier for us.

Quite possibly, it is the endless in your face that wears most folks out.

This is what hurts the most... . The lack of affection, telling her that it bothers me and she doesn't seem to register or care.

But, every once in a while, the shell opens up and I get to see the woman that I love, and she is caring and sweet and affectionate.

Now, if I could only figure out what the key is.

[SoWhat]

I definitely love her. When she's feeling well, I can tell she loves me too.

She's done some amazing things for me and has enriched my life in a lot of ways.

[Perez]

Love is not Enough,

Thank you for including the quote from Oceanheart.  "So yes, the love is “real”, but only in the sense of how it feels to the person with BPD: the feelings seem real, they feel like love. But it’s not love because it’s based on need rather than on true caring and intimacy, which is the real love we all deserve."

That is very insightful, and really helps to look upon my relationship with my uBPDw in a new perspective.  At this point in my marriage, my wife has determined that I cannot fill the need she has for whatever emotional hole that she needs filled.  So in her mind, I do not love her and do not deserve any efforts from her for any type of relationship or intimacy.  The change from alternating white / black to nearly all black has progressed over many years. 

So do I love her?  As many have said on this thread, Love is not a feeling, it is an act of will.  It is very hard to love without receiving much in return.  I do genuinely want the best for her and am willing to sacrifice for her benefit.  I have stopped sacrificing when it means losing my self respect or inner peace.  The only way I have been able to do this is to emotionally detach myself, processing the past hurts and not allowing new insults and nasty behavior to control my sense of self.

So it is a kind of paradox, for to have the will to love her, I need to emotionally detach.

[Love Is Not Enough]

Love is not Enough,

Thank you for including the quote from Oceanheart.  "So yes, the love is “real”, but only in the sense of how it feels to the person with BPD: the feelings seem real, they feel like love. But it’s not love because it’s based on need rather than on true caring and intimacy, which is the real love we all deserve."

That is very insightful, and really helps to look upon my relationship with my uBPDw in a new perspective.  At this point in my marriage, my wife has determined that I cannot fill the need she has for whatever emotional hole that she needs filled.  So in her mind, I do not love her and do not deserve any efforts from her for any type of relationship or intimacy.  The change from alternating white / black to nearly all black has progressed over many years.  

So do I love her?  As many have said on this thread, Love is not a feeling, it is an act of will.  It is very hard to love without receiving much in return.  I do genuinely want the best for her and am willing to sacrifice for her benefit.  I have stopped sacrificing when it means losing my self respect or inner peace.  The only way I have been able to do this is to emotionally detach myself, processing the past hurts and not allowing new insults and nasty behavior to control my sense of self.

So it is a kind of paradox, for to have the will to love her, I need to emotionally detach.

You are welcome for the quote and thank you for summing it all up so well. I think the paradox is the key to having a successful relationship with a pwBPD. I think I really "get it" now 

I definitely love her. When she's feeling well, I can tell she loves me too.

She's done some amazing things for me and has enriched my life in a lot of ways.

That is great to hear. I am glad that not everyone here has become as jaded as me. She is lucky to have you!

What do I do if I feel like the boundary is being crossed? What is reasonable?

Whatever works to remove the feeling,. Reasonable has nothing to do with it. Boundaries are in effect a necessary protective selfish act, otherwise you end up in negotiated compromise which at the end of the day usually does not achieve the desired result.

The ultimate boundary for some people will prove to be leaving a RS altogether. Is this reasonable? Yes if that is what it takes for someone to isolate themselves from a certain situation. It may take trial and error for you to work out what is right for you, but no one else can tell you what that is.

I guess I am struggling about making the boundary about an attitude and not something concrete. I do know that if she cheats I will leave, but I am not sure what to do when I feel she is manipulating with fear. I guess I will call her on it and tell her I do not appreciate her using that tactic. I will tell her I will not be in a RS where my partner intentionally attacks my trust with passive aggressive games. That should go over well... .

I can't thank you enough waverider for walking me through all of this. It has really helped me clear my mind of the unhelpful emotional bs. I also feel more in control of myself and how I feel about the RS. I have a clear path now how to proceed to take better care of myself. Thank you  

[waverider]

I guess I am struggling about making the boundary about an attitude and not something concrete. I do know that if she cheats I will leave, but I am not sure what to do when I feel she is manipulating with fear. I guess I will call her on it and tell her I do not appreciate her using that tactic. I will tell her I will not be in a RS where my partner intentionally attacks my trust with passive aggressive games. That should go over well... .

Just make sure you don't make any statements that you are not willing to follow through with. The threat of a consequence rarely brings about compliance untill it has been enacted a few times. So jumping to the extreme of I will not be in a RS with someone who XYZ can often be too final to be easily followed through with, with you ultimately backing down on, and having your bluff called.

[waverider]

One aspect that is not talked about much is the love projection. pwBPD often want to be loved but don't believe they are lovable. So by using a big show of affection they are projecting their "need" for love on to you. Kind of like giving an example of how they want you to treat them, so the harder they give is often an indication of the greater the need.

The problem is this sets up a standard of entitlement, they are trying to buy affection, and immunity for their faults. If you then criticize or otherwise make them feel accountable for anything you are seen as not playing the role they are setting for you, and they feel cheated. Now you start hearing, 'how can you do/say that when I have done XYZ for you" etc. Then the switch to pro active defense (ie attack) starts, and the pendulum swings the other way.

This takes you unguarded as you have only been consistent going along as normal, and oblivious of this 'example role playing lesson" you have been given, and have no idea why this switch has occurred and the honeymoon is now over.

They don't really love you for who you are, as they don't really know you, that takes empathy. They "love" you for the way they want you to "love" them. Which eventually makes them uncomfortable because they believe they are unlovable, so don't believe you if you do.

Push/Pull

[Happy73]

One aspect that is not talked about much is the love projection. pwBPD often want to be loved but don't believe they are lovable. So by using a big show of affection they are projecting their "need" for love on to you. Kind of like giving an example of how they want you to treat them, so the harder they give is often an indication of the greater the need.

The problem is this sets up a standard of entitlement, they are trying to buy affection, and immunity for their faults. If you then criticize or otherwise make them feel accountable for anything you are seen as not playing the role they are setting for you, and they feel cheated. Now you start hearing, 'how can you do/say that when I have done XYZ for you" etc. Then the switch to pro active defense (ie attack) starts, and the pendulum swings the other way.

This takes you unguarded as you have only been consistent going along as normal, and oblivious of this 'example role playing lesson" you have been given, and have no idea why this switch has occurred and the honeymoon is now over.

They don't really love you for who you are, as they don't really know you, that takes empathy. They "love" you for the way they want you to "love" them. Which eventually makes them uncomfortable because they believe they are unlovable, so don't believe you if you do.

Push/Pull

So how do you find common ground with this?  This is SO familiar to me!