Why do they want to make you the bad person?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I know this must seem like an obvious answer to this question,, but I dont get it.  Why do they want to make you the bad person? What are they getting out of this?  How can they go on condemning you for so many things and not once take a look at themselves and what they are doing. My known my ex for quite awhile, and he has all ways seems like a reasonble person.  He isnt stupid,  so how can he go on like this hearing my side of the story and continually ignoring it?  They dont want resolve and this is why this is ignored.  This is the only solution to this that I can figure out.   And if they dont want resolve,  then what do they want?

[goingtostopthis]

I know this must seem like an obvious answer to this question,, but I dont get it.  Why do they want to make you the bad person? What are they getting out of this?  How can they go on condemning you for so many things and not once take a look at themselves and what they are doing. My known my ex for quite awhile, and he has all ways seems like a reasonble person.  He isnt stupid,  so how can he go on like this hearing my side of the story and continually ignoring it?  They dont want resolve and this is why this is ignored.  This is the only solution to this that I can figure out.   And if they dont want resolve,  then what do they want?

[Kifazes]

From my experience, when my ex was feeling bad, he would make sure I was feeling even worse. He got a relief by blaming it all on me, and I would feel bad because of how he was treating me.

It always made me think of 'misery loves company'.

And when you're the bad person, they are not. So in that way, he didn't do anything wrong, and he was relieved.

Messed up, I know. That's how it came across in our relationship. Don't know if he really knew what he was doing.

[arn131arn]

I spent 14 long years being the scapegoat to all of my ex's problems in life. I really didn't believe it the entire time, but as things progressively got worse, I did start to believe everything she would say about me. This is one of the main questions that haunt me to this day. Still very disappointed about the smear campaign against me, her son's father. I guess, in a way, she does this and it gives her an excuse for shattering our family. The lies and manipulation of others is needed to circle her support wagons of enablers... . still it hurts knowing I did everything in my power to make her and our family a happy unit.

[love2give]

It is this exact trait that has me back in therapy.  Even though I have hundreds of examples of things she did to me that were totally wrong, I am left feeling guilty that I was the cause of our break up because that is all she ever said to me during her petty picking at me.

Her favorite line was "you have a BAD attitude" which she would say about anyone else that did not agree with her.

I agree with Going,  All we would need is for them to also listen to our side of the issue, talk it out and resolve the issue like adults but she never ever saw my side of it.  Didn't even actually hear what I was trying to say cause her mind was so FOCUSED on her way.

[arn131arn]

I hear allot about it being a disorder of attachment. Well, I think a definate symptom is extreme selfishness to go along with the many others.

[goingtostopthis]

Kifaze,

       I think your right, at least in your instance and mine. This is why looking at this way helps me to detach from the amount of hurt he's caused.  Ive also seen him in action so to speak being mean to me right when something else is happening with him which is bad and stressful.  I know when Im not feeling very good myself and the cat is up on my desk walking on important papers,  Ill push him off with snappy words and a bit of force, as resistant as they can be sometimes.  But this is cat with a small brain,not a human being. I think its true they cant hear you no matter what you say.  I dont think they want to hear you. I know my ex has this now and I have to keep reminding myself that what happened isnt my fault. He hasnt listened to one word Ive said to him, and I have said a lot. It seems hes so busy being on the defense he cant hear me. I think he convinces himself that everything I say is lies. Hes convinced that every fight we have with each other is caused because of me. Weve only had about 4 in a 6 month period, 5th being the last and because this "problem"  I supposivly have, He wont tolerate it anymore so the relationship has to over.  Truely bizarre in my mind because each one has started with slights I have been sorry for , trying to resolve and end peacfully, and each time he just wont have it and keeps provoking me with means words that never end and then I keep trying to reason with him and defend myself.  I didnt want the relationship to be over. I honestly felt this was happening at first because of the both of us doing it.  NO!  it had to be me,  just ME  doing it.   If I had known he had BPD then, I would have quit early and gotten my behind out of there in that chat space. Because his viciousness went on for ever and it just worse and worse until I was shell shocked.  This is not the same person I have come to know in the       past 6 months.  I dont know who he was, but not the same person Ive  come to love,who had loved me the same.  Who was suppose to know me,  then all of a sudden out of the clear blue Im not the women for him, Im not worthly anymore.  Ive got a problem he just wont tolerate.  Ya.  this basically came out of no where with in a 2 week period. +The guy has got emotional problems obviously. I have to remind myself this over and over again and set aside time for myself to stop all my mind chatter from this(because Im still in shock) and let myself know that there isnt anything wrong with me and that my attempts to reasons with him and get a resolve where good attempts and that the things I said were me being honest with good intentions, with apologies that I meant. I went over and beyond with this guy.   Im not a bad person,  he cant and or refuses to hear me,   But My main point here is that:  I hear me.   I hear me.   and I hear all of you too. 

[fromheeltoheal]

Borderlines feel all emotions strongly and end up feeling engulfed, like they will lose themselves, if they get too close to someone, a byproduct of not having a fully formed self of their own.  So if you get too close, they push you away, you have a problem with that, they feel shame, the emotions are too strong, so they project them on you as a means to cope; you are the bad guy and to blame for everything.  A borderline needs a scapegoat to off any and all negative emotions on, since they are very strong and they don't have the ability to soothe them on their own.  We get to be that scapegoat, lovely.

And sitting down and talking it out is not an option because folks with personality disorders experience a different reality than we do and resolution to anything is impossible, especially since the person we were in a relationship with is just a reflection of us, it would be like talking to ourselves.  And of course there has to be a facade since a borderline thinks they're worthless and don't care about themselves, and if you saw the real them you would leave, the worst thing that could happen to someone with fear of abandonment at the core of the disorder.

The hardest, and also most beneficial component of detaching is to accept the disorder as it is, radical acceptance it's called around here.  That's tough to do, accept that the person we were in an intimate relationship with, loved, has a serious mental illness and there's nothing we can do about it.  What does that say about us?  And accepting that is sure to shatter any remaining dreams we had that this person was our 'soul mate' and the love we felt was real.  But accepting that is an extreme wake-up call and can lead to profound growth, the ultimate gift of the relationship.

[LettingGo14]

Borderlines feel all emotions strongly and end up feeling engulfed, like they will lose themselves, if they get too close to someone, a byproduct of not having a fully formed self of their own.  So if you get too close, they push you away, you have a problem with that, they feel shame, the emotions are too strong, so they project them on you as a means to cope; you are the bad guy and to blame for everything.  A borderline needs a scapegoat to off any and all negative emotions on, since they are very strong and they don't have the ability to soothe them on their own.  We get to be that scapegoat, lovely.

This is such truth.  Thank you for writing it.  I would get "miss you" texts in the middle of the night after the abandonment.   It would make my heart leap in the morning.  I would reach out, and it would end in accusations against me.   The "flooding" of emotion is very real.  The "black and white" thinking of the BPD makes everything all or nothing.

And sitting down and talking it out is not an option because folks with personality disorders experience a different reality than we do and resolution to anything is impossible, especially since the person we were in a relationship with is just a reflection of us, it would be like talking to ourselves.  And of course there has to be a facade since a borderline thinks they're worthless and don't care about themselves, and if you saw the real them you would leave, the worst thing that could happen to someone with fear of abandonment at the core of the disorder.

So well said.  I would write e-mail after e-mail (until I realized how futile such efforts were).  The BPD reality is VERY different from ours.  As the literature says, it causes us to wonder if they ever loved us.  I know without question that my BPDxgf smears me.  But she smeared every ex, and the bosses of four jobs she had in four years.   She's so enticing to people on the surface level, but starts to shake when people get close.  It is exactly what you say... . "they feel worthless."

The hardest, and also most beneficial component of detaching is to accept the disorder as it is, radical acceptance it's called around here.  That's tough to do, accept that the person we were in an intimate relationship with, loved, has a serious mental illness and there's nothing we can do about it.  What does that say about us?  And accepting that is sure to shatter any remaining dreams we had that this person was our 'soul mate' and the love we felt was real.  But accepting that is an extreme wake-up call and can lead to profound growth, the ultimate gift of the relationship.

My five days on this site so far have been the biggest wake up call ever.  I am breathing actually.   I am on the 1st full day of no contact.  No googling.  Nothing.   "Radical acceptance" of self and circumstances is the only way out.

Thanks for writing this.

[TheDude]

I can only speak for the conclusions I've come to about my own personal experience, but I assume others have found similar explanations for the devaluation process (aka: bad guy or painting black).

A minority segment of this included understandably valid concerns, yet were presented as harsh judgement and confrontation, rather than genuine concern or constructive criticism. To add confusion to the mix, some of these things were previously 'endearing'.

But, the overwhelming majority of the degradation came in the form of either projection and/or transference (both being defense mechanisms). Simply put, projection is placings ones own attributes/emotions/shortcomings onto another. Transference is similar, but taking those things from someone like a parent or ex and placing them on someone else. My own example of that would be when she would - with great sarcasm - call me by her father's or ex's name, or even my mother's name.

What all of this means is that it was her own personal shame and guilt, combined with anger and fear never resolved from her childhood that causes her to behave this way. Sadly, it's a core component to life-long 'professional victim' cycle. It's a deeply ingrained coping/defense mechanism that's inevitably applied to *every* person who gets anywhere in the vicinity of close to her.

Being on the receiving end of this kind of behavior was truly horrible. I started dating at 16, and am 50 now, and this aspect of the the relationship has been one of the most consciously challenging psychological hurdles I've encountered. Understanding that I wasn't the deficient bad guy who may have somehow deserved such harsh depreciation has been a large step forward. That was an impossible realization for me when it was happening, but being detached for a year has drastically changed my perception from her infectious dysfunction back to reality. Or at least MY reality.

[redbaron5]

Easy, it's simpleton thinking. If someone else is the piece of hit, it must not be my fault!

[goingtostopthis]

Borderlines feel all emotions strongly and end up feeling engulfed, like they will lose themselves, if they get too close to someone, a byproduct of not having a fully formed self of their own.  So if you get too close, they push you away, you have a problem with that, they feel shame, the emotions are too strong, so they project them on you as a means to cope; you are the bad guy and to blame for everything.  A borderline needs a scapegoat to off any and all negative emotions on, since they are very strong and they don't have the ability to soothe them on their own.  We get to be that scapegoat, lovely.

And sitting down and talking it out is not an option because folks with personality disorders experience a different reality than we do and resolution to anything is impossible, especially since the person we were in a relationship with is just a reflection of us, it would be like talking to ourselves.  And of course there has to be a facade since a borderline thinks they're worthless and don't care about themselves, and if you saw the real them you would leave, the worst thing that could happen to someone with fear of abandonment at the core of the disorder.

The hardest, and also most beneficial component of detaching is to accept the disorder as it is, radical acceptance it's called around here.  That's tough to do, accept that the person we were in an intimate relationship with, loved, has a serious mental illness and there's nothing we can do about it.  What does that say about us?  And accepting that is sure to shatter any remaining dreams we had that this person was our 'soul mate' and the love we felt was real.  But accepting that is an extreme wake-up call and can lead to profound growth, the ultimate gift of the relationship.

  Im having a hard time with this explanation.  If they have a different reality,  then what is this reality? Why is resolution to anything impossible?   Ive had resolutions before with my boyfriend. If he is just a reflection of me then it would have been resolved quite nicely and quick.  This doesnt make sense to me. I think they sufffer from severe distorted thinking where they actually believe there is no way out of their misery. Thats why it doesnt matter what you say to them. And what does that say about us?  That we are mentally ill too?   

[fromheeltoheal]

Borderlines feel all emotions strongly and end up feeling engulfed, like they will lose themselves, if they get too close to someone, a byproduct of not having a fully formed self of their own.  So if you get too close, they push you away, you have a problem with that, they feel shame, the emotions are too strong, so they project them on you as a means to cope; you are the bad guy and to blame for everything.  A borderline needs a scapegoat to off any and all negative emotions on, since they are very strong and they don't have the ability to soothe them on their own.  We get to be that scapegoat, lovely.

And sitting down and talking it out is not an option because folks with personality disorders experience a different reality than we do and resolution to anything is impossible, especially since the person we were in a relationship with is just a reflection of us, it would be like talking to ourselves.  And of course there has to be a facade since a borderline thinks they're worthless and don't care about themselves, and if you saw the real them you would leave, the worst thing that could happen to someone with fear of abandonment at the core of the disorder.

The hardest, and also most beneficial component of detaching is to accept the disorder as it is, radical acceptance it's called around here.  That's tough to do, accept that the person we were in an intimate relationship with, loved, has a serious mental illness and there's nothing we can do about it.  What does that say about us?  And accepting that is sure to shatter any remaining dreams we had that this person was our 'soul mate' and the love we felt was real.  But accepting that is an extreme wake-up call and can lead to profound growth, the ultimate gift of the relationship.

 

Im having a hard time with this explanation.  If they have a different reality,  then what is this reality? Why is resolution to anything impossible?   Ive had resolutions before with my boyfriend. If he is just a reflection of me then it would have been resolved quite nicely and quick.  This doesnt make sense to me. I think they sufffer from severe distorted thinking where they actually believe there is no way out of their misery. Thats why it doesnt matter what you say to them. And what does that say about us?  That we are mentally ill too? 

 

Hi going-

That explanation is a light version of standard borderline; having a full blown clinical diagnosis of the disorder and just exhibiting traits are two different things, it's a continuum, and everyone exhibits what could be considered borderline traits at least once in a while.  It's been said that many more people exhibit traits than those who could actually be given a formal diagnosis, although we all joined this site because at least some things we read here rang true.

Anyway, before we are born and a little after, we do not differentiate between ourselves and our mother, we're one person as far as we're concerned.  At some point we realize that she is someone other than us and she won't be by our side 100% of the time, and we feel the terror of possibly being abandoned.  That is depressing, most of us weather that depression, and emerge on the other side as an autonomous individual with our own "self", separate from our mother; that process is critical in the normal development of an individual and most people go through it just fine. 

A borderline never does that, never successfully detaches from their primary caregiver psychologically, it was just too scary and/or the mother wouldn't allow it by clinging to the baby.  So that sets up a psyche that is only half formed and considers itself "one" with whomever it attaches to, and lives in constant fear of abandonment, in fact is convinced everyone will abandon them and then who are they, do they exist at all, and will they survive, a replaying of that earliest attachment with their primary caregiver.  So a borderline must attach to someone to feel whole, and when they do they are creating one person with no boundary between, and live in constant fear that that person will abandon them.  That trauma or events that happen later as a result also stunt maturity, so what we're left with is an emotionally immature person without their own self, terrified of abandonment and perpetually driven to form attachments to feel whole.  All of the behaviors and coping mechanisms come out of that mindset.

Your question about what does that say about us is a great one, and it's appropriate to wonder if we are "mentally ill" too, whatever that is.  What we do with borderlines is set up a loaded bond where our sht meshes well with their sht.  One popular version around here is the people pleaser caretaker type, a target for a borderline, an attractive attachment because they can be controlled and therefore won't leave.  The untangling of what really happened and what part we played in it is an awesome opportunity for growth, nothing like extreme pain to get us off our ass.

Maybe some of that is useful?

[pinkparchment]

This post is a month old but I really needed it today. I know because my ex went to the hospital when I *suggested* we consider breaking up, all of her friends and family think I'm evil. And she can't make a single decision for herself. Despite the fact that not a single person in her life has met me (we were long-distance) and that she was messaging other people (and her exes) throughout our relationship for random hook-ups and/or dating, I am the devil for stringing HER along, for asking her to move to my city (I have four children, and their dad and grandparents are here, I'm not leaving), for expecting her to love me enough to not constantly be formulating back-up plans.

I know that her best friend was the biggest impetus in her blacking me out. He cares about her and I believe he has her best interest at heart, but instead he's enabling her. Like I did. He's reaffirming all of her delusional thinking about the relationship, because he also has no concept of what it is to be an adult with people who depend on you. They both think six weeks (from our first attempt at NC to her ultimatum that I choose her or my family, right then... . issued over the phone from the psych ward) is a perfectly reasonable amount of time for me to decide to finalize a divorce and tell my whole family, all our friends (none of whom even know that we're separated), and my children that I'm seriously dating another woman. Yep, no sweat.

So, she hates me. And all her people think I'm toxic, although we were friends first and I have always been the most supportive and stable influence in her life. And I would have continued to be if she could have given me enough time to get my life in order before "coming out" as a couple. She just couldn't wait, couldn't live in limbo with all those emotions engulfing her as you said. Thus, she detached and made me the bad guy, and everyone in her life is all too happy to reinforce that.

Thanks for the post and replies. Very helpful to know I'm not the only one who struggles with this.

[Madison66]

After 3+ years with my uBPD/NPD ex gf, I'm a believer that we were living different realities.  I found that the covert and overt emotional abuse eventually turning physical was evidence we were living different realities.  Her's was based on shame, pain, control and a lack of empathy.  There was no chance of a "win/win" for me in this r/s.  As I look back, when we would have resolution it would be when I would bend my boundaries and she'd feel like she won.  I'd feel ok because even though I gave up a lot there was some short lived harmony in the r/s.  I found that she was incapable of doing that.  It's called looking at the greater good.  It definitely wore me down over time and I was less apt to give in.  That is when things broke down the most.  The more I refused to serve her every need, give in or when I enforced my boundaries there would be hell to pay with emotional abuse, emotion dysregulation and rage finally turning physical. 

Back to the original post.  I know my ex gf is smearing me just like she did to her ex h and his new wife, her parents, her siblings, her co-workers, etc.  We are all bad people for finally distancing ourselves from the dysfunction and pain.  I put up with so much crud during the r/s and am not proud of the ways I sometimes responded.  It is what it is, and it is why she is no longer in my life... .  

[jynx]

I'm glad this topic was brought back up.  This was the most mind boggling thing to me.

I am a co dependent, people pleaser, I know that, and I am working on that.  I was also married to an upwBPD for over 27 years. 

I always had a problem with thinking it was the way that I was saying things that would set him off.  Found out that wasn't true.  It didn't matter one way or the other how I tried to tell him that I was upset about anything.  When I did try that he was mad at me for being upset with him.  He actually told a therapist this.  I was surprised at this, and then the therapist just said, do you mean to tell me that if she is upset that you just get mad and start raging.  He responded "yes" because it makes me feel like I am a bad person, and I don't like to feel bad about myself.  That opened up my eyes. 

I could then see and understand that if I was upset, that he wasn't listening to one word that I was saying.  All he was hearing was blah, blah, blah, blah, you are a bad person, and I don't like you.  So all the attacks that were coming at me, were really attacks against himself, because he was feeling bad about himself.

So how do you resolve an issue like that?  So we try to explain that we don't think that they are a bad person, that we love them, we want to work things out, "BUT", we are married and people who are married do not runaway from home for over a month, then come back thinking that since we did not fight for over a month, then everything should be ok.  All he heard was everything after the "BUT".  So now I was attacking him again and telling him he was a bad person, and it's all my fault because I just don't get over things, all I do is nag, nag, nag, and I couldn't I understand that he just wanted things to be better? 

I also found out things like when he met me and for many years that that is when he was the happiest, he was the happiest being with me, but if he was unhappy for any reason at all, it was because I was making him unhappy.  So it could be anything, a bad day at work, whatever, he isn't happy, and it's my fault. 

I could never explain to him that if you have a disagreement, it is not a war.  That people can and do actually sit down and resolve things, and there can be give or take.  That there are compromises.  That I never expected him to agree with my feelings, but just to understand that I do have feelings, and that are mine, that I only wanted to share them with him, so that he might know where I am coming from.

All he ever heard from anything that I ever said was that I thought he was a bad person.  He never heard what I had actually said.  How could he have heard anything else, it's either all good or all bad.  All black or all white.  If I was upset with him, then he took it as I hated him, and then he had to hate me and push me away before I abandoned him.  If we were fine, then I loved him and all was good. 

[MammaMia]

PwBPD have such low self-esteem that they focus ANY negativity on themselves.  Since their BPD will not allow them to understand that it is normal to have disputes that can be resolved peacefully, they view disagreements as a personal attack on them. They project all of their anger and fear on to whomever has the audacity to disagree with them.  It is a defense/control mechanism.

PwBPD do not believe they are at fault for anything that causes conflict.  It is the black and white thinking. Their brain disorder does not allow for a gray area in which compromise can be made.

I have learned with my dBPDs, that if I can get my view out there, but ultimately "sort of" agree with him, he will spend an inordinate amount of time debating the issue in his mind.  When he comes to the conclusion that what I suggested has merit, he will decide to own it and proclaim it as his view.  As long as the final decision appears to be his, he will accept it.  When they get to this point it is never wise to tell them it was your idea.  Never.  In fact, it works best to praise them for coming up with such a great solution. 

PwBPD vary.  Some will adamantly stand fast and not give an inch, while others are capable of seeing both sides of an issue. However, ultimate decisions must be made on their terms which allows them to save face.