Anger still there, but duration is less

[Depression = 72% of members]

Coming up on 7 weeks since she moved out.

I was triggered earlier in the week when S4 said something that implied her bf had met the kids. Was really, really pissed. But a friend said, "is this unexpected?" No. She's trying to bring him closer because she can't be alone, so of course she would do this, nit wanting to be "alone" when she has the kids half time. I remind myself of what my T said, "a lot of your anger stems from you expecting her to be someone she is not, so lower your expectations." That helps. It does, however, piss me off that she is lying to the kids about "mommy's friend." Where will the lies stop?

I still dread if her judgement is so poor that she invites him to D1's bd party next month. Her mom is throwing it, we can't stop her. A cultural and c/d thing there. If he shows up, I will call it out in front of everybody. It will be my weekend with the kids, and I am agreeing out of respect for her mom. I'm seeing my T next week to get some advice on this... . I will NOT be devalued like that. Not by them. Future bfs, fine, I get and accept it. But not the likely NPD/BPD who took part in the kids mother neglecting her children for 4 months or longer. No. Way. Unlike uBPDx, I don't care what people will think of me. I operate upon what is right and wrong. I am thinking of giving her a warning in a nice way, like "I know you're inviting your friends to the party, but since this is my weekend, make sure you don't invite people who aren't supposed to be there." If I get the deer in the headlights look, I can add, "you know what I mean, right?" Like I said, I will get advice from my T on this, and I never said a lot of what I considered harsh things he said were acceptable I could have said to her.

I picked up the kids tonight from her moms house. Their mom showed up. She had gone to the mall and got them clothes. She said shed buy them. It satisfies her shopping addiction. I was proud of myself that we talked like it was business, and prouder that I didn't look at her beauty while I was talking to her, unlike the other day when we spent a few hours together at the dentist's office with S4. Maybe I'm getting to a better point in detaching.

[Turkish]

Coming up on 7 weeks since she moved out.

I was triggered earlier in the week when S4 said something that implied her bf had met the kids. Was really, really pissed. But a friend said, "is this unexpected?" No. She's trying to bring him closer because she can't be alone, so of course she would do this, nit wanting to be "alone" when she has the kids half time. I remind myself of what my T said, "a lot of your anger stems from you expecting her to be someone she is not, so lower your expectations." That helps. It does, however, piss me off that she is lying to the kids about "mommy's friend." Where will the lies stop?

I still dread if her judgement is so poor that she invites him to D1's bd party next month. Her mom is throwing it, we can't stop her. A cultural and c/d thing there. If he shows up, I will call it out in front of everybody. It will be my weekend with the kids, and I am agreeing out of respect for her mom. I'm seeing my T next week to get some advice on this... . I will NOT be devalued like that. Not by them. Future bfs, fine, I get and accept it. But not the likely NPD/BPD who took part in the kids mother neglecting her children for 4 months or longer. No. Way. Unlike uBPDx, I don't care what people will think of me. I operate upon what is right and wrong. I am thinking of giving her a warning in a nice way, like "I know you're inviting your friends to the party, but since this is my weekend, make sure you don't invite people who aren't supposed to be there." If I get the deer in the headlights look, I can add, "you know what I mean, right?" Like I said, I will get advice from my T on this, and I never said a lot of what I considered harsh things he said were acceptable I could have said to her.

I picked up the kids tonight from her moms house. Their mom showed up. She had gone to the mall and got them clothes. She said shed buy them. It satisfies her shopping addiction. I was proud of myself that we talked like it was business, and prouder that I didn't look at her beauty while I was talking to her, unlike the other day when we spent a few hours together at the dentist's office with S4. Maybe I'm getting to a better point in detaching.

[HealingForMe]

I'm glad you're getting to a better place in detaching. Its a process that has lots of bumps along the way... . well done.

I do understand him being there would be hard for you, esp as its your w/e with the kids. I would suggest caution if he does turn up. She may be trying to provoke a reaction & a strong reaction in front of your kids isnt healthy for them or you. Good that you can discuss this with your T.

[coolioqq]

It sounds like you are controlling the situation very well. I can only imagine how difficult it is to be seeing her with someone else, especially with your children in the picture. In my case, I couldn't even imagine that about my loved one, and I think that is a very normal reaction for a healthy human being.

That said, the fact that you operate on the right/wrong line of thinking as opposed to "I wonder what people will say" tactics explains the strength of your character very well. And presence of strong character is, I think, the crucial difference between someone healthy and someone with BPD (as confirmed by my ex).

I learned (the hard way) that insisting on finding a match that mirrors your core qualities and values is, at least in my case, absolutely required for a healthy relationship. Maybe that's something to discuss with the T. The mistake I made unknowingly is looking for those in someone who cannot even conceptualize qualities and values.

[Turkish]

It sounds like you are controlling the situation very well. I can only imagine how difficult it is to be seeing her with someone else, especially with your children in the picture. In my case, I couldn't even imagine that about my loved one, and I think that is a very normal reaction for a healthy human being.

I'll be brief to not bore everybody else. A new guy is one thing. The guy she had an affair with and the it in front of my face for 5 months until she was finally able to move out is another.

NachaLuva, I'm an even tempered guy, which is part of why the r/s , lasted 6 years, but I do have righteous anger seething within. You are right though. Causing a scene in front of the kids is not cool, and there would be families there. A friend of mine last night told me to not even warn her because it might give her satisfaction. Not sure if that is right either. Maybe asking a question of her brother. Her whole family is dissappointed in her, but given the dysfunction, they go through life pretending things are normal, despite their serial cheating and emotionally disconnected father. And blood is still thicker than water. I doubt she would do this, but at this point I don't put anything past her lack of judgement and stunted empathy.

[Tausk]

Hang in there.  It takes time.  You can't completely detach overnight.  And you care for your ex.  We're not BPD, therefore we can not cut out the fact that we care for someone like it was a malignant mole.   And we feel pain when we are betrayed or unjustly punished by someone whom we were attached and vulnerable.

The feelings are neutral.  It's how we responds that matters.  Feeling anger is natural.  If we respond well, the suffering and vulnerability to the triggers can be reduced over time.  It's PTSD.  Returning soldiers are going through radical meditation techniques these days that involve embracing the emotion, validating it, examining it, responding in a positive manner, and being mindful of how we hope to respond next time the trigger is present.  

Furthermore, our exes will always have moments when they look beautiful to us.  Because when they are in the abandoned child persona... . they are beautiful in their own way.  They are just a three year old little girl who smiles in delight with a puppy or a bowl of ice cream, which is beautiful.   I need to think in the whole picture of what was happy, beautiful as well as malignant and painful.  

But it took time for me to feel the good, because for so long it triggered so much grief and anger over the the loss.

Over time, the aspects of my exes beauty have not so much become less beautiful, but I can more clearly see it as a persona.  And when I see it within the complete picture of the Disorder with the Anger, Punishment, Detached persona and the lack of self,  the whole picture becomes even sadder and more pathetic.

You're doing great.  You inspire me with your courage and grace.  

I wish that you had adopted me 40 years ago and maybe I wouldn't have had to grow up with such confusion and Disorder myself.  

[Turkish]

I wish that you had adopted me 40 years ago and maybe I wouldn't have had to grow up with such confusion and Disorder myself.  

Haha, thanks Tausk. Even with the Way Back machine, I'd be 2, in diapers and in foster care.

I learned (the hard way) that insisting on finding a match that mirrors your core qualities and values is, at least in my case, absolutely required for a healthy relationship. Maybe that's something to discuss with the T. The mistake I made unknowingly is looking for those in someone who cannot even conceptualize qualities and values.

coolioqq, I think that is the key. I gave up a few of my core values to be with mine, out of my idealization of having a family, and starting to feel like I was getting over the hill, so to speak. Our family values did match for a time, though. I know things about her of which her family has no idea. She has always been good at compartmentalizing. The most mature r/s she ever had or ever will have was with me. I triggered her sometimes, and other times just the fact of being in a mature (two careers, two kids, mortgage, managing finances, etc... . ) r/s triggered her: depressions and the like. Her family saw those finally.

At her core, she is what she implied to me before she met me. She matured some... . on the outside. Based upon the things she wrote to her paramour while she was living with me, they are eerily similar to the things she wrote to her One Love 1-2 years before she met me, this being 7 years ago. The ravings of a love sick 13 year old girl. I found them on my computer. Not even hidden.

At this point, I'm just so tired. Residual PTSD, perhaps, as Tausk said. She called and left a voice mail today, but the kids and I were out of cell range hiking in the hills. Asked me to call her back because she wanted to hear the kids' voices. I haven't responded. She saw them yesterday evening. She can do her nightly call later. She sounded normal, but it's my time. I don't bug her on her time. Boundary. If she calls back I will answer though. I'm not a monster.

[Turkish]

Addendum: she called shortly after I posted that. Sounded normal at first, then I could hear her voice breaking after talking to the kids. "I miss you guys soo much!" (she saw them 20 hours ago). The emotional instability is still there, and I am preparing for the worst when trouble begins between her and her boy toy. She will focus back on the only thing that "keeps her here" as she once said: the kids.


She also said she would call them later. Object constancy. I wonder when the requests will come it to spend time with them on my time. I won't be averse to her showing up to church tomorrow on my time. That's fine, though it would bug me. This is just sad.

As my T asked me many months ago (he had two individual sessions with her before she abandoned it), did I think she sees the kids as individuals, or as objects or possessions? I know she does love them, but there is an aspect to the object status for her. If I were to be totally cold, I'd say she needs them more than they need her, which is reversed from what a healthy parent-child r/s should be, especially at this young age.

Focus. Be Mindful. Don't hurt the kids (with alienation, or commenting about their r/s with her paramour), and don't do or say anything to hurt her, because that also hurts the kids. I'll deal with myself in parallel. The truth, and I only know the whole truth, validates itself, no matter what anyone else in the family or our community thinks.

[coolioqq]

coolioqq, I think that is the key. I gave up a few of my core values to be with mine, out of my idealization of having a family, and starting to feel like I was getting over the hill, so to speak. Our family values did match for a time, though. I know things about her of which her family has no idea. She has always been good at compartmentalizing. The most mature r/s she ever had or ever will have was with me. I triggered her sometimes, and other times just the fact of being in a mature (two careers, two kids, mortgage, managing finances, etc... . ) r/s triggered her: depressions and the like. Her family saw those finally.

That sounds eerily similar to what I imagine my relationship would turn out to be like as I really intended to marry her in the near future. We even talked about that, and the way she handled it was another red flag that I chose to ignore. As I introspect more, it was exactly that: my blindness due to my idealization of a family with someone who "cameleonized" into what attracts me. I fell in love with someone who doesn't even exist, or exists sometimes... . I owe it to God for triggering her into confessing, albeit quite late. But better late than later... . I see that I really made the right choice by stepping out of the r/s. Much like you, I am someone who cares a lot about family, and I want to have children. But I want them to be raised by an equally healthy mother.

I am really glad that you got to spend the day with your kids. It sounds that, despite her calling you, you guys did have a good time. And it's really admirable that you are working hard and pushing aside your emotions to avoid projecting your relationship with her onto your kids. I am not a parent, so I can't even imagine being in your shoes, but I commend you, man! Keep strong! And, yeah, you know the truth so what people say should get into your ear and come out the other... .

[coolioqq]

Much like you, I am someone who cares a lot about family, and I want to have children. But I want them to be raised by an equally healthy mother.

No way to edit posts (that I can find). I realized the above didn't really come out the way I meant it. I know you must have had the same hopes and intentions going into your marriage. It was me convincing myself to persist with NC . I am sorry if that sounded bad.

[Turkish]

Much like you, I am someone who cares a lot about family, and I want to have children. But I want them to be raised by an equally healthy mother.

No way to edit posts (that I can find). I realized the above didn't really come out the way I meant it. I know you must have had the same hopes and intentions going into your marriage. It was me convincing myself to persist with NC . I am sorry if that sounded bad.

Hi, it's the Modify button at the upper right of your posts, next to Quote.

I wouldn't have taken it wrongly unless you had not pointed that out. I wouldn't trade our little monsters for anything in the world, but don't be like me! I like that you are smarter already. I was very foolish. When I proposed to her, we got chow mein to eat at her favorite park. When I opened the bag, I got her the large chow mein instead of a small as she always got. Up to that point, she had always ordered her own, so how could I have known? She proceeded to rage at me about it. I was so angry, I thought about taking out the ring I had hidden, holding it up and then tossing it into the pond. Instead, like a fool, I dropped to one knee... . she instantly started crying, said yes, was overjoyed. In retrospect, that split of me from white to black to white in the space of 3 mins was hallmark BPD.

Regarding children, I got blamed by their mother for not insisting on not having D1. I tried to talk her out of it, After out r/s was over, and we have one of the very few talks about it (at my insistence, I just didn't see the value of hashing out something that was over with a PD'd person. Arguments were useless. Closure I had to own 100% on my own.). I finally confessed that I was ambivalent about a second child due to her emotional instability, and the exponential decay did coincide with D1's birth, as well as what I think was an affair trigger when they all caught her dad in yet another one of his affairs with a kept woman a year ago. She said I should have told her. Maybe... . I don't know. I will never know, but it makes no difference now. With someone who thinks everyone cheats and everybody abandons (which turned out to be her in the end), there is no processing it.

[Turkish]

She called the kids when we were eating dinner. Her tears were more obvious this time. She said she probably will show up to church tomorrow because she needs to see them. I sensed the BT wasn't there, because she sounds different when I think he is. I talked to her about our day. At the end, she thanked me for the conversation. Nice talking to an adult for her, perhaps.

Knowing her, unless she sees him tonight, she will be crying herself to sleep. The typical beginnings of a deression cycle. This is a mess of her own making... . but really the disorder. She neglectd them for months, and the last two weeks she was here hardly interacted with her children because she was busy moving on into her new life and medicating with the boy. None of this is unexpected. I keep reminding myself of that. Underneath what she projects,.and beyond her narc traits, she is an emotionally unstable and fragile child. Reminding myself of that, despite all she did, lessens my anger. She is who she is. I know her more than anyone ever did or ever will. She's also the mother of my children, and I need to handle her with kid gloves for the sake of our children. I will admit, for her sake as well. She's still a human being, and  I would be violating my values to rip into her as part of me wants to. And I could verbally hurt her. I know I could. But I will not. At least I hope not. I'm a human being, too, flawed.

[myself]

With due respect, she wanted to be gone, to have a different life somewhere else. Yet she still gets to be there, with you and the kids, without really being there, as she chooses. What about your time is your time? It's ok because you take the high road? I'm with you on respecting the mother of your children, and how that helps the kids, but your ex is crossing boundaries. Every time you allow that she sees she can just do it again. Is that respectful of either of you? What's wrong with letting her see what it's really like to run off with someone, neglecting her kids, and live with that decision? Even if it hurts her? I think if she faced the real reality of it (and you, too) it would be better than the revolving door you describe. You're not above or below her, you're supposed to be equals now. She chose her path. My two cents, no offense.

[Turkish]

With due respect, she wanted to be gone, to have a different life somewhere else. Yet she still gets to be there, with you and the kids, without really being there, as she chooses. What about your time is your time? It's ok because you take the high road? I'm with you on respecting the mother of your children, and how that helps the kids, but your ex is crossing boundaries. Every time you allow that she sees she can just do it again. Is that respectful of either of you? What's wrong with letting her see what it's really like to run off with someone, neglecting her kids, and live with that decision? Even if it hurts her? I think if she faced the real reality of it (and you, too) it would be better than the revolving door you describe. You're not above or below her, you're supposed to be equals now. She chose her path. My two cents, no offense.

No offense taken, myself. I need the hard talk too. And a few of my friends give me that as well. I'm deciding boundaries now. Its hard with the kids, but being so young, they probably wouldn't know  the difference at this point. I can't stop her from showing up to a public place, but no going out to lunch after which I know she will suggest. Even if we go home and watch tv the rest of the day, its still my time. Thanks for the squirtgun in the face, I need that. Its not like I've not been accused of being too nice in the past on unrelated matters, even by her in a way juxtaposed to her pathological distrust of pretty much everbody. Still navigating the waters, still navigating myself. I'll be more confident once the custody stipulation is filed.

[arn131arn]

With due respect, she wanted to be gone, to have a different life somewhere else. Yet she still gets to be there, with you and the kids, without really being there, as she chooses. What about your time is your time? It's ok because you take the high road? I'm with you on respecting the mother of your children, and how that helps the kids, but your ex is crossing boundaries. Every time you allow that she sees she can just do it again. Is that respectful of either of you? What's wrong with letting her see what it's really like to run off with someone, neglecting her kids, and live with that decision? Even if it hurts her? I think if she faced the real reality of it (and you, too) it would be better than the revolving door you describe. You're not above or below her, you're supposed to be equals now. She chose her path. My two cents, no offense.

Turk, I have to agree with Myself on this one. I have been wanting to tell you this for a long time, I just can't ever get thoughts and feelings and stuff like that coordinated enough and make it come out in an organized manner.

I mean, I email with her about pick up and sporting equipment needed, and if there is an emergency, we can call (hasn't come to that yet), I try to keep it very business like in an email. "Please, have son pack his bat, we are going to the cage tomorrow and It would be a big help to son if the bat was broken in before the season starts. Thanks, Arn." Or "I put oil on son's glove and I tied it up with a ball in it, please don't let son use it for a few days Bc it will hinder the pocket from forming. Thanks, Arn."

I can see you are triggered every now and then when you see/speak to her, and at first, I thought it was great that ya'll could be that cordial, but in looking out for you and you only, are you currently happy with the way things are, Turk?

[Tausk]

With due respect, she wanted to be gone, to have a different life somewhere else. Yet she still gets to be there, with you and the kids, without really being there, as she chooses. What about your time is your time? It's ok because you take the high road? I'm with you on respecting the mother of your children, and how that helps the kids, but your ex is crossing boundaries. Every time you allow that she sees she can just do it again. Is that respectful of either of you? What's wrong with letting her see what it's really like to run off with someone, neglecting her kids, and live with that decision? Even if it hurts her? I think if she faced the real reality of it (and you, too) it would be better than the revolving door you describe. You're not above or below her, you're supposed to be equals now. She chose her path. My two cents, no offense.

Turk, I have to agree with Myself on this one. I have been wanting to tell you this for a long time, I just can't ever get thoughts and feelings and stuff like that coordinated enough and make it come out in an organized manner.

I mean, I email with her about pick up and sporting equipment needed, and if there is an emergency, we can call (hasn't come to that yet), I try to keep it very business like in an email. "Please, have son pack his bat, we are going to the cage tomorrow and It would be a big help to son if the bat was broken in before the season starts. Thanks, Arn." Or "I put oil on son's glove and I tied it up with a ball in it, please don't let son use it for a few days Bc it will hinder the pocket from forming. Thanks, Arn."

I can see you are triggered every now and then when you see/speak to her, and at first, I thought it was great that ya'll could be that cordial, but in looking out for you and you only, are you currently happy with the way things are, Turk?

I don't have first hand experience, but I'm very close to an old GF whom I see and talk to almost daily. Her relationship with exHwBPD is difficult as well.  I've helped her to realize that he's just a traumatized three year old.  And she gets it for the most part but forgets.  

And after five year of divorce and back and forth insanity, things got a little bit stable in terms of him never talking directly to her but at least keeping up with picking up the kids and having his parents pay his child support regularly.  So at some point he started to text her again, and it helped with the communication and school coordination and pick ups... .

So after about a month of civility, she responded to a text with the slightest of sexual innuendo.  He responded to that response by having a week with idolization and mirroring, but when she wouldn't reciprocate, she was immediately painted evil and she paid for her sexual innuendo with another three months of hell.

I'm just relaying an experience for both of you.  Remember pwBPD don't really carry memories of their actions or what has transcribed over the past years, months, weeks or even days.  All that matters is the emotions of the moment.  

Not saying that anyone is doing it, but as a reminder, trying to manipulate, or for the most part even slight interaction in, the Disorder is participation in the Disorder.  And any participation in the Disorder always leads to Destruction.

So it's important to be detached in any interactions with the Disorder to minimize destruction.

You guys are my hero's.  And in some ways I'm jealous of you, because you have the need to interact with your exes. I know is incredibly painful, but at the same time you don't seem to go through the, "I wonder if she's cured" ruminations that I go through daily.

Since I have just seen my ex but once in the last two years, and only know that she moved 100 miles to be with her cheating husband on their new house 1 mile away from me.  Yes, she met and cultivated him through my friends here.  So I wonder if my forcing her to go to DBT, and telling her that she has BPD, and getting her on zoloft... . cured her... . But I know in my mind that it's not possible. Maybe more manageable, but nothing else.  And I actually saw it developing and could have stopped it, but decided it wasn't worth it.

You don't have to go through that.  You have the information and evidence in front of you.  More painful, but perhaps a faster way to recovery.

In narcotics anonymous there's a cliche,  an addict maybe should start smoking crack cocaine, because the insanity and pain is so immediate that it gets the addict to where he will end up the quickest.  Either recovery, jail, or death. 

[Mutt]

I'm sorry Turk. It's hard. I went through a similar thing last year. OM starting sleeping over at week 3. Within 90 days, they went fishing, camping, movies, weddings, with the kids and replacement. That's what i know about. If i mentioned that it was too soon for the kids, it got twisted around that I'm controlling. I  was literally replaced. The ex did not miss a beat. I was angry. I mentioned this to the court clerk when I was filing for a parenting order to see my kids. There's nothing that I can do. It's too soon and blatantly wrong. It's putting yourself in front of the kids and selfish.

It is what it is.

I chose to be a rock for my kids. I show them a different way. I don't alienate mom. My daughter a couple of weeks back said it's not right to get into something right away. She's 8. She has noticed that dad  is not with someone else.

I'm sorry man, I wish I could say something different. She's thinking about herself first and not your kids. My ex was like that through the entire r/s and I didn't see it. I was gobsmacked at what she was doing shortly after she left with the kids. But it didn't take long to realize she is not going to change. She was telling the kids in front of me that mom and dad are divorced. Cognitive dissonance to justify her behaviors.

[A Dad]

I just wanted to pitch in about enforcing boundaries from the start as I am going through the same situation. My ex moved out around four weeks ago, and we are not divorced yet.

My intention is that I want the children and her to have each other as much as possible, and for us to have as little to do with each other as possible. The way I practice is that if there is anything that causes me distress and does not offer any advantage to my children, I don't do it.

At the moment, my ex visits the children at my place. I let her in, I do not greet her (good evening, how was your day etc.), I give her the facts about children (eating, napping etc.), then I stay in my room or go out. When she leaves, in the beginning she seems like she wanted a hug, but I physically stay away from her as she is leaving and only respond with a one word "goodbye" if she insists on saying something as she leaves.

She tried to talk to me about her office stuff, I politely shut her down. She tried to complain to me about family, I told her that You are right, but sorry, I do not want to hear about it. She talked about her being sick or ill, I hear it but do not respond, although once or twice I might have said "hope you get well soon". So on and so forth.

This might sound extreme, but I am happy with this. Clear boundaries. As we started our "trial" separation, I found out that she had started accepting lifts to train station from her affair partner. For two or three days I agonized about it, whether she is getting a lift today or not. Then I realized that hey this is causing me distress that I do not need. I need all of me for myself and my children. That realization made me end our "trial" after three days. I no longer had to worry about whether or not she was getting lifts with that guy.

I was still being somewhat nice. Three weeks later, I found out that she had that guy over at her place. I saw his car parked there the whole night. The next day when she came to see the children, I could hardly stand to be in the same space/room as her. Instead of repressing these feelings, I accepted and honored them. I did not say anything to her, but I didn't try to hide the disgust that showed on my face. I don't have to do that anymore, it has been very liberating.

In time I will find more acceptance and forgiveness for her, but for now, I come first (after my children of course). In the parenting plan, I am going to go for a detailed split - holidays, birthdays etc, kids will either be with her or with me. After some time, I might make exceptions to that, but I will make sure that they are seen as such, and not as given.