May need to remove kids

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Yep... . I have backups... . will make more.

Instructions for lawyer are to call first thing and discuss how it went.

Very frustrated... . but I still believe I was right to try.  I'm not going to quit...

Wow - I'm so sorry you are going through this.  I've been there and I know it hurts.

Don't think this is the end.  This often happens at the beginning.  Your path to a better situation will be longer than you hoped but there is a path from here to there.

You need to make sure you have the right lawyer, and learn about how the process works where you live.  Lots of good ideas on this thread, but it all depends on how things work where you live - you need to figure out your best strategy and put it into action.

Find out all of your options - depositions, a Custody Evaluator, a Guardian Ad Litem, etc. - all the ideas discussed here plus others your lawyer may have.  Learn about all the options and figure out what actions you should take to get the right result in the end.

It will be a long, hard road.  Make sure you are taking care of yourself in every way.

Best wishes,

Matt

[formflier]

Yep... . I have backups... . will make more.

Instructions for lawyer are to call first thing and discuss how it went.

Very frustrated... . but I still believe I was right to try.  I'm not going to quit...

Wow - I'm so sorry you are going through this.  I've been there and I know it hurts.

Don't think this is the end.  This often happens at the beginning.  Your path to a better situation will be longer than you hoped but there is a path from here to there.

You need to make sure you have the right lawyer, and learn about how the process works where you live.  Lots of good ideas on this thread, but it all depends on how things work where you live - you need to figure out your best strategy and put it into action.

Find out all of your options - depositions, a Custody Evaluator, a Guardian Ad Litem, etc. - all the ideas discussed here plus others your lawyer may have.  Learn about all the options and figure out what actions you should take to get the right result in the end.

It will be a long, hard road.  Make sure you are taking care of yourself in every way.

Best wishes,

Matt

[Boss302]

This is bad.

DSS interviewed my kids and then informed my wife and I that I would have to leave the home.

Their were no individual talks with adults.  I informed them of my concerns for BPD and rage issues during discipline... . and they were not heeded.

I offered to listen to the recording of the actual incident and they said they have to protect the kids and go with their assessment of them. 

The temporary safety plan is for me to live with my parents.  No contact.

I implored them to put evaluations on the safety plan... they put down that we will comply with "counselors"... . they would not put down which one.

They stressed this is temporary.

I'm screwed... . my conscience is clear... . my heart is broken.

I am so sorry this happened. Unfortunately, you learned something important about the family law "system": the good guy doesn't always win all the battles. The important thing is that you did the right thing. And you shouldn't quit, even though right now it probably feels like the whole "system" has just flipped you and your children off.

Let me tell you my story.

In the case of my divorce, the issue wasn't outright abuse - it was neglect and utter failure to parent correctly. BPDx got temporary full custody and let the kids live in utter filth, fed them pizza and fast food five nights a week (learned this when her bank records were subpoenaed), pulled my D17 out of her freshman year of high school so she could be "homeschooled" (basically she lost a year and a half of her education), and would pull my D13 out of school for literally weeks at a time over things like sick stomachs. At the time, she was getting $2100 a month in alimony and child support, but never paid a dime of rent. This left me absolutely destitute.

Eventually the courts (and social services) caught on to what was happening, and after she was evicted from two homes in a six month span, I ended up with primary custody in February 2012, and kept it when the divorce was finalized. I also got primary decision making over medical, dental and educational issues. Net result: their home life is now stable, and they're both doing well in school (D17 just graduated high school ON TIME, which was miraculous). I even got a break on her support because the kids are with me pretty much full time.

Sometimes this does work out. Things CAN get better. You have to keep faith. Keep in mind that BPDs can be charming and manipulative, and are outstanding at playing the victim, but they're also unstable, and often times, that's their undoing. It was in the case of my ex. Basically, because of all the presumptions the "system" made about me up front, I had to let her fail, and watch my kids fail for a while as well. But I was there to help them pick up the pieces, and they know it. They know who the stable parent is now.

But during all this, your worst enemy will not be your wife. No, YOU will be your worst enemy. Right now, you're undoubtedly enraged by what's happened. What father wouldn't be? I sure was, and my case didn't involve physical abuse. Not only are your kids at risk, "the system" has told you that YOU are the problem and have to leave. That's beyond infuriating, and it's enough to put any man into Chuck Norris mode.

You have to resist that. You cannot show anger to any of these social worker types, because they're predisposed to judge an angry man as a dangerous man, even if he has every reason to be angry. In my case, we had a CFI, and she was nice enough to tell the judge that she was "scared of my anger issues," when in fact, my anger issues were all based on my BPDx's behavior, which was DEPLORABLE, and she never bothered to ask herself why. All she saw was that I had a penis and was angry, and that was that. She actually told my BPDx the day of the hearing that she should refile for custody in six months. Incredible.

I had every right to be angry. So do you. But you need to keep that under control 100%.

I'd highly suggest finding a therapist, if you don't have one already. Make sure you have a good support system for what you will be going through here. It will be hell.

But in the end, you can help your kids.

[Waddams]

I'm sorry how this has worked out - they take a bunch of statements from a bunch of scared kids, don't bother to even listen to, much less consider, the actual evidence, and make horrible decisions. 

Every story that comes through here makes me think it's better to record, gather evidence, then head straight for an ex parte restraining order to start off.  Talk to the judge, play recordings, show evidence, etc.  Take the kids to the doc yourself and get the marks documented quick enough that it's obvious they came from the incident in the recording.  Then take the medical reports with you to the judge.  The advantage is it's just you and the judge, no kids, no disordered spouse, no people from agencies, etc.  Nobody to muddy the waters.  The judge issues the ex parte order, then the hearing happens, and the evidence speaks for itself.

The worst that happens is if the judge doesn't issue the ex parte order, or if it's not approved at the hearing.  Then at least you're not put out of your house, and you have a record you can show of trying to act responsibly in the situation.

If approved and the restraining order is in place, THEN involve other authorities if you have to.  Then you have an order of protection from the court that they can't ignore.

Let us know what your L tells you next.  Also, don't be afraid to go talk to a few more lawyers.  Lots of family law lawyers have not had to deal with high conflict cases of this nature.  There will be someone, however, in your locality that has.  You just need to find them, and fast.   

[ForeverDad]

Every story that comes through here makes me think it's better to record, gather evidence, then head straight for an ex parte restraining order to start off.  Talk to the judge, play recordings, show evidence, etc.  Take the kids to the doc yourself and get the marks documented quick enough that it's obvious they came from the incident in the recording.  Then take the medical reports with you to the judge.  The advantage is it's just you and the judge, no kids, no disordered spouse, no people from agencies, etc.  Nobody to muddy the waters.  The judge issues the ex parte order, then the hearing happens, and the evidence speaks for itself.

The worst that happens is if the judge doesn't issue the ex parte order, or if it's not approved at the hearing.  Then at least you're not put out of your house, and you have a record you can show of trying to act responsibly in the situation.

If approved and the restraining order is in place, THEN involve other authorities if you have to.  Then you have an order of protection from the court that they can't ignore.

You know... . looking back... . maybe we should have suggested that you press for court involvement first.  If you could have gotten a TPO or TRO in place first - the threshold to get one is fairly minimal - then you would have likely had an initial position of temporary stability.  It may not have lasted long, perhaps only a couple weeks but quite possibly up to a few months, but it would have started you on relatively solid footing rather than struggling to catch up.

But hindsight is limited, nothing to do about what has already happened.  Apparently the children have been trained their entire lives (look up Stockholm Syndrome) to tow the line and even feel sorry for their mother.  Only (1) expert perceptive professionals and (2) time for evaluations and investigation may get past their training.

As I wrote before, there's nothing to stop her from from solidifying her residential standing by filing for a restraining or protection order.  Since you know about her actions and have documentation of it, you could choose to go to family court and file your own motion first.  Yes, it's possible that both of you could end up having motions against the other.  (That happened to me.)  But wouldn't that be better than the only case being her allegations against you?  Best case scenario would be that her case gets dismissed and she's never put under any scrutiny since the judge had no motions against her.

I write that because I'm hoping DSS acted as they did only because (1) they were acting on an emergency response basis and the quickest way to stabilize it temporarily was to (1) see if the children reported abuse and (2) default to mother getting possession of children and residence.  Sorry, but one gender usually gets default preference.  In the USA it's called VAWA, Violence Against Women Act.  Repeated studies and evidence have shown that women can be abusers too but evidently that reality is not politically correct.

For all I know she might file for divorce as well.  Perhaps you ought to discuss that aspect as well with your lawyer, whether you ought to be the one to file for divorce.  It may be better to be assertive and proactive rather than defensive.  (I've heard that football teams seldom win games using only defense strategies.)

[Matt]

Everybody's story is different but there are also similarities - patterns we can see - and those can teach us a lot.

I think it may be helpful to take note of some of our stories, because lots of them have very low points, but good (or at least OK) outcomes.

I was married more than 10 years, kids (at the time) 7 and 9, plus stepkids I love as my own, then 17 and 29.  I had known my wife for many years before we ever went out.  We had the same friends.  We went out for a while, and she lied to me about birth control, and got pregnant, knowing I would marry her if she did that (and I did).

Lots of problems but my wife had not been diagnosed, and I had never heard of BPD.

She was violent with me a few times.  Later I found out she had hit my stepson when he was little.

A few days before Christmas she came home - I was sitting on the bed playing my guitar - and went into a rage - tore up all my sheet music and swung my guitar at my head.  I dealt with it the best way I knew how - tried to lock her out of the room - ultimately succeeded in removing her from the house and locking the doors.  Then I fixed dinner for the kids and started their bath.

She went to a neighbor's house and called 911, and said I "threw her down the stairs".  Two officers came and talked to us both, and to the kids, and noted some physical evidence like the torn sheet music and the layout of the house.  Their report, issued a few weeks later, proved she was lying;  she had told each officer a different story, and what the kids told the cops lined up with what I told them.

But their procedure was to arrest the man, and I was charged with assault.  An accusation is treated as "probable cause" (and our nation's founders roll over in their graves).  I did 16 hours of hard time ("Yo white man you snoring!".  While I was in jail I finally accepted that my wife had a big problem and it wasn't going to get fixed without professional help, and I could not continue to put myself at risk by being around her.

The next day I talked with my counselor and a criminal defense attorney, who both said the same:  "You have to protect yourself so you can be a good father.  You can't be a dad if you're in jail and if you keep doing what you're doing that's where you'll end up."  The lawyer was expensive, and I had to rent a place to live - I found one a few blocks away - because the judge released me from jail with the stipulation that I not go home til the case was resolved.  My lawyer advised me to have no contact with my wife except e-mail.

When we got the police report and showed it to the judge, the charges against me were dropped.  My wife proposed counseling to try to save the marriage and I agreed, thinking that maybe the counselor would encourage her to get help.  Complete waste of time and money.  We found another counselor - both of them chosen by my wife - and this one was better.  She told me that she thought my wife probably had BPD and encouraged me to read "Stop Walking On Eggshells" which led me here.

My wife rejected any suggestion that she get help, so about a year after the incident I gave up and moved forward with the divorce.  I filed a motion to have her deposed, and she made more than 40 false statements under oath.  I also filed a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed - a Ph.D. psychologist who administered the MMPI-2 to both of us and diagnosed my wife with multiple psychological disorders including BPD.  He recommended psychotherapy, and that was included in our settlement, but she never did it.  I agreed to 50/50 custody;  my lawyer told me that over time it would morph into "de facto primary custody" which is exactly what happened.  Now my kids are 15 and 17, stay with me most of the time, see their mom regularly and love her, and they're both doing very well - happy and healthy.

I wish it was 100% legal custody but if I could have seen the future, at my lowest point - the day I got out of jail and was prohibited from going home and seeing my kids - if I could have seen at that moment how it would all work out, I would have been very OK with it.  About 20 months of chaos and extreme stress, and lots of cost, but a pretty good resolution to the legal stuff, and most important, a good outcome for the kids.

There's no guarantee you'll have the same experience, but it's pretty likely if you get good advice and make good choices.  I think if you read other stories here - dads who were put on the defensive and kept their heads - you'll see this as a pattern - the eventual outcome is pretty good but the path to get there is kind of long and expensive.

[Waddams]

When I went through the false allegations + DV arrest - I had to go through this DV class as part of the program to get the charge dropped and the arrest expunged.  The DV class was led by a Masters level therapist.  Most of the guys in the class were not your typical abuser.  There was me who had used a martial arts move to get uBPDxgf off me when she had a hold on my arm and was pulling, turning, screaming, cussing, and physically hurting me.  I'd used it to get her off me.  Left a bruise, I got arrested.

There was another guy whose GF had started hitting him with a phone over and over, and then phone, fists, etc. while they were driving down a highway.  He ended up giving her a shot in the ribs to get her to stop because she was going to cause him to lose control of the vehicle otherwise.  Lots of that kind of stuff.

We had a discussion one day in the class that centered around how to minimize drama when interacting with disordered people.  Things like if you know they're lying, then sometimes we feel the need to ask them, get the lie, then prove back to them they're lying.  Then why do they get even madder?  And continue to lie.  and deny.  and... . and... . and... . the list of ways the drama escalates goes on and on.  How can they continue to act like that and even worse?  Are they crazy?  The group of guys was just going in circles and saying "What do we do in these situations?"  You're caught in a catch 22.  If you address the lies, things get worse.  If you don't, things get worse.

The T chimed in and basically said figure out your boundaries to not get caught up in the circular logic to begin with.  I'll never forget this advice:  Don't invite the opportunity to lie.  When you are with someone, by the time you get to dealing with these issues, you've got a pretty good idea of their problems already.  So try to set up dealing with issues in a way that eliminates the opportunity for more lies to come out.  In the case of what we were talking about in class... . instead of trying to catch them in a lie, just tell them what you know to start with.  Just confront them.  They can still deny and obfuscate and split, etc.  But just confront and don't play your own games of trying to get in a "one-up'd" position with them.

In situations like FormFlier's, I think the "don't invite the opportunity to lie" advice plays out by involving as few people/agencies as possible.  Confronting the issue without trying to get her to admit anything, without relying on kids, etc.  Just evidence in front of a judge and restraining order.  Nobody else involved.  There's no opportunity for the BPD to lie and twist and manipulate things to DSS investigators, etc. in that scenario.  There's no opportunity for kids who really shouldn't be involved in decisiosn like this anyway to get sucked in and manipulated.  Just confrontation with evidence of their misconduct in front of a judge.  

[earthgirl]

FormFlier,

I'm so sorry you are going through such a difficult experience.  I'd like to add to what the others have said:  kudos to doing what you are doing to protect your children.   

One thing I would suggest, as an attorney (and I apologize if this has already been raised... . I did a quick skim of the responses) -- it's very important that the children get into therapy, if they are not already there.  They need a safe place to sort all of this out, especially the attempts at parentification going on here by the mother.  (She has attempted to make her issue of custody, their responsibility).

[formflier]

Thanks for this input.

FormFlier,

I'm so sorry you are going through such a difficult experience.  I'd like to add to what the others have said:  kudos to doing what you are doing to protect your children.   

One thing I would suggest, as an attorney (and I apologize if this has already been raised... . I did a quick skim of the responses) -- it's very important that the children get into therapy, if they are not already there.  They need a safe place to sort all of this out, especially the attempts at parentification going on here by the mother.  (She has attempted to make her issue of custody, their responsibility).

[Turkish]

In the case of what we were talking about in class... . instead of trying to catch them in a lie, just tell them what you know to start with.  Just confront them.  They can still deny and obfuscate and split, etc.  But just confront and don't play your own games of trying to get in a "one-up'd" position with them.

Not to get the thread off track, but this is one of the "Games People Play" (from the book by Eric Berne, who developed the theory of Transactional Analysis and is the originator of Social Game Theory). This one's called NIGYSOB (Now I've Got You you SOB), and it takes two (or more) people to "play." I did this near the end trying to catch uBPDx in her lies. She, accordingly, responded like the Child, because I was being the accusing Parent. There was no Adult in the room at that time. No one "wins" that game. It's hard enough with nons, but with a PD'd person all the more dangerous.

[Matt]

In the case of what we were talking about in class... . instead of trying to catch them in a lie, just tell them what you know to start with.  Just confront them.  They can still deny and obfuscate and split, etc.  But just confront and don't play your own games of trying to get in a "one-up'd" position with them.

Not to get the thread off track, but this is one of the "Games People Play" (from the book by Eric Berne, who developed the theory of Transactional Analysis and is the originator of Social Game Theory). This one's called NIGYSOB (Now I've Got You you SOB), and it takes two (or more) people to "play." I did this near the end trying to catch uBPDx in her lies. She, accordingly, responded like the Child, because I was being the accusing Parent. There was no Adult in the room at that time. No one "wins" that game. It's hard enough with nons, but with a PD'd person all the more dangerous.

I don't think this is off-topic at all.  (This thread is covering a lot of territory - Formflier can say if it is all helpful - and let's remember that lots of our members read a thread but don't post.  So all these ideas are probably helping a lot of members... .

One key here may be to decide what are your objectives, Formflier.

For example, there are lots of methods used - like the ones discussed in the DV group Waddams described - to help us deal with people who have BPD and/or other problems.  This is the main focus of "Stop Walking On Eggshells" - how to deal with someone who has BPD and isn't getting the help she needs.

But that assumes you will be living with her or at least engaging with her on a somewhat intimate basis - private talks with nobody else present.  Which may be a very risky thing to do at this point, for a number of reasons - putting yourself at further legal risk for one.

Another possibility is that you might decide that the marriage can't be saved (or shouldn't be saved), and your goal is really to help the kids.  In that case you won't want to adopt any methods to communicate more skilfully with her, you'll want to disengage, and communicate with her only in a very limited and well-documented way - only by e-mail, with no face-to-face or phone contact.

[catnap]

Another possibility is that you might decide that the marriage can't be saved (or shouldn't be saved), and your goal is really to help the kids.  In that case you won't want to adopt any methods to communicate more skilfully with her, you'll want to disengage, and communicate with her only in a very limited and well-documented way - only by e-mail, with no face-to-face or phone contact.

The one key that is really important is that your attorney has experience dealing with high-conflict people.  The "normal" way of dealing with a disordered person does not work, nor will that person react in a "normal" way.

I highly recommend the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy. 

[Matt]

Another possibility is that you might decide that the marriage can't be saved (or shouldn't be saved), and your goal is really to help the kids.  In that case you won't want to adopt any methods to communicate more skilfully with her, you'll want to disengage, and communicate with her only in a very limited and well-documented way - only by e-mail, with no face-to-face or phone contact.

The one key that is really important is that your attorney has experience dealing with high-conflict people.  The "normal" way of dealing with a disordered person does not work, nor will that person react in a "normal" way.

I highly recommend the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy. 

"Splitting" is great, and you can also find good articles on Eddy's web site, www.HighConflictInstitute.com.

[ForeverDad]

To expand on the book and article resources, here are a few crucial ones:

Articles:

The Bridge (Acceptance to stop Fixing and to Let Go)

DrJoeCarver.com - Relationship warning signs - Stockholm Syndrome

Books:

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (invaluable legal guidance!)

Divorce Poison (how to effectively help the kids)

Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex

Back to the lawyer situation... . Have you gotten any valid legal advice?  This not not something to wait for an appointment next Friday, nor to sit back and do nothing and let ex continue on the rampage.  Yesterday the family conflict ratcheted to a higher level when DSS got involved.  It will be very hard if not impossible to ratchet it back down to the way things were before.

Another possibility is that you might decide that the marriage can't be saved (or shouldn't be saved), and your goal is really to help the kids.  In that case you won't want to adopt any methods to communicate more skilfully with her, you'll want to disengage, and communicate with her only in a very limited and well-documented way - only by e-mail, with no face-to-face or phone contact.

The one key that is really important is that your attorney has experience dealing with high-conflict people.  The "normal" way of dealing with a disordered person does not work, nor will that person react in a "normal" way.

Have you yet decided whether this marriage can be salvaged - or whether it should even be attempted in light of the ever-rising conflict and years of no improvement?  We're not asking you to try to fix it, odds are it is unfixable, it would require a complete revamping of your spouse's thinking, perceptions and behaviors that would take years of dedicated effort to accomplish.  We're asking what judgments and decisions you see before you, which path(s) and options are possible for you.  Will you still try to be the Fixer, the Rescuer or now just the Empowered Parent?

So that begs the question... . Is your lawyer experienced and proactive enough to deal with an aggressive, no-holds-barred, winner-take-all spouse?  We can guarantee you (okay, only 99.999%) this is going to be a high conflict case, almost surely heading into a divorce, if not right now, then eventually.  If your lawyer focuses his/her career on filing forms (no allusions to your user name intended) and holding your hand through the process, then you need to start looking for someone more proactive and assertive.

Let's see... . there was to be a counselor session today?  Was the T able to calm things down so you could return home now?  If you do return home, be very aware that you will be at high risk to be framed for DV, threat of DV, child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment.  Especially if she knows you have recordings of her misdeeds.  She will feel she needs to make you look worse than her and how better than to frame you or make false allegations of bad behavior?  Be aware.  Beware.

[formflier]

 

I has splitting and divorce poison in my desk drawer... . unfortunately haven't read much... . I better get on that tonight.

Was spending more time learning to validate... . but I had these books just in case.

This thing moved a bit quicker than I hoped (an event I couldn't let go)... . I saw the trend coming.

[formflier]

 


Back to the lawyer situation... . Have you gotten any valid legal advice?  This not not something to wait for an appointment next Friday, nor to sit back and do nothing and let ex continue on the rampage.  Yesterday the family conflict ratcheted to a higher level when DSS got involved.  It will be very hard if not impossible to ratchet it back down to the way things were before.Case should be in new DSS tonight.  Due to my position it has to be done by another county.  Last night was "triage" I believe I  will get a better result or they will at least listen.  Should have contact by late today. 

Another possibility is that you might decide that the marriage can't be saved (or shouldn't be saved), and your goal is really to help the kids.  In that case you won't want to adopt any methods to communicate more skilfully with her, you'll want to disengage, and communicate with her only in a very limited and well-documented way - only by e-mail, with no face-to-face or phone contact.[/quote]
This is up in the air.  If there is no treatment or realization that there is a disorder... . no chance.  I'm not getting back on the crazy train.  Had good long talk with my pastor.  He was not surprised she is BPD... . she likes to teach children... . not be involved in intimate Sunday school sessions.  He is supportive of steps that have been taken because the situation is now "unstuck"... . for a long time things were really status quo or slight deterioration.  I'm not going to be there to blame or do the dance.  Now... . that doesn't mean good or bad... . but something will change.  I have to think through many different paths.  He also validated the moral choices I was making... . kid safety over all else... . more later on this

The one key that is really important is that your attorney has experience dealing with high-conflict people.  The "normal" way of dealing with a disordered person does not work, nor will that person react in a "normal" way.[/quote]
Have you yet decided whether this marriage can be salvaged - or whether it should even be attempted in light of the ever-rising conflict and years of no improvement?  We're not asking you to try to fix it, odds are it is unfixable, it would require a complete revamping of your spouse's thinking, perceptions and behaviors that would take years of dedicated effort to accomplish.  We're asking what judgments and decisions you see before you, which path(s) and options are possible for you.  Will you still try to be the Fixer, the Rescuer or now just the Empowered Parent?  If there is verifiable progress... . I am open to fixing.  But... . the fixing is more reflecting back at her... . not allowing her to feel less pain.

So that begs the question... . Is your lawyer experienced and proactive enough to deal with an aggressive, no-holds-barred, winner-take-all spouse?  We can guarantee you (okay, only 99.999%) this is going to be a high conflict case, almost surely heading into a divorce, if not right now, then eventually.  If your lawyer focuses his/her career on filing forms (no allusions to your user name intended) and holding your hand through the process, then you need to start looking for someone more proactive and assertive.

Let's see... . there was to be a counselor session today?  Was the T able to calm things down so you could return home now?  If you do return home, be very aware that you will be at high risk to be framed for DV, threat of DV, child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment.  Especially if she knows you have recordings of her misdeeds.  She will feel she needs to make you look worse than her and how better than to frame you or make false allegations of bad behavior?  Be aware.  Beware.I was warned by pastor that at some point she will miss me... need me and will turn very sweet.  He said that is time to be very careful and not mistake that for progress.  In other words... . don't jump at first opportunity.  He recommend staying away a while... . to let the new system form rather than recreating the old.  The old system failed... . don't go back.

Therapy session was yesterday for marriage... and tomorrow for my individual... that used to be marriage counselor... . and first mentioned BPD.  I need to find out how to get records and see what they say.  Something on paper where a mental health person says needs eval... . displays traits... . something.

More lawyer talk later today.  Need to make contact with other county DSS first.  Will make sure they hear tape ASAP[/quote]

[Matt]

What is ":)SS"?

I think you are right to not assume your wife will take responsibility and seek change, and also to leave that possibility open.

A few members here have been lucky - their spouses have decided to get help, and have stuck with it, and when that happens, the chance of good progress is very high.

One study showed that more than 80% of people diagnosed with BPD, who get the right kind of treatment and stick with it for five years, achieve "remission of major symptoms";  that is, they still have BPD, just like an alcoholic will always be an alcoholic, but they have learned to act right as often as most of us do.

Unfortunately, most people who have BPD or a similar disorder - and by the way, about half of all people who have BPD also have some other psychological disorder, which makes diagnosis more complicated - most people with BPD never accept the need to get help.  They either deny they have a problem, or say they do but make some excuse not to get help, or they start down the right path but don't stay with it.  So it is not practical to assume that someone with BPD will get better.  You have to prepare for the worst and figure out what you can do to protect yourself and the kids, and rebuild a new life.

[Grey Kitty]

One question to confer with your lawyer... . somebody mentioned it, but this has been pretty active, and I didn't see you comment on this:

Should you file a temporary restraining order/protective order for you and your children against your wife, NOW, before she files one against you?

Your situation will be better if there is an order against her, obviously.

Or you both make similar filings, the judge will be examining her behavior, not just yours.

If she is about to file or already did... . your window of opportunity will be short.

[Matt]

One question to confer with your lawyer... . somebody mentioned it, but this has been pretty active, and I didn't see you comment on this:

Should you file a temporary restraining order/protective order for you and your children against your wife, NOW, before she files one against you?

Your situation will be better if there is an order against her, obviously.

Or you both make similar filings, the judge will be examining her behavior, not just yours.

If she is about to file or already did... . your window of opportunity will be short.

Good point.

A couple things that have helped some of our members in similar situations... .

One is to remember the difference between criminal charges and civil charges.  Criminal charges involve the police and a prosecutor, and must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.  The police have their own procedures which may be biased against men;  women are not often charged with DV (though they commit DV acts about as often as men).  Prosecutors may also have an agenda - they look good for putting men who hurt women in jail but they are generally reluctant to put a woman in jail without super-strong proof.

Also, criminal charges are hard to prove.  51% of the evidence isn't enough.

Civil charges are different.  They are based on "a predominance of the evidence" not "proof", and they don't usually involve either the police or a prosecutor - it's you who brings the charges, not the police and not a prosecutor.

TROs are usually granted right away, when a woman asks for them.  Your lawyer might know how things work where you live - whether a TRO is likely to be granted, and how to go about it, and whether you can file civil charges against her.

You need good legal advice fast - what are all your options and how do things work where you live.

It's great that you have a lawyer and will see him soon, but you can also contact any number of other lawyers and learn a lot.  Some won't charge you for an initial consultation, and you don't necessarily have to tell them much to just ask some questions... .

[Boss302]

Therapy session was yesterday for marriage... and tomorrow for my individual... that used to be marriage counselor... . and first mentioned BPD.  I need to find out how to get records and see what they say.  Something on paper where a mental health person says needs eval... . displays traits... . something.

Has anyone on this board successfully "proven" the estranged spouse is BPD?

My BPDx was clearly, obviously off the rails, and my lawyer agreed, but she also told me that to prove it, you'd have to have a full psych evaluation done on her. That wasn't financially feasible for me, and per my attorney her success rate on that was mixed, at best. BPD is not the easiest thing to diagnose. Thankfully my ex "cooperated" by living an incredibly unstable lifestyle (multiple evictions, filthy house, not sending the kids to school, etc) and that made it easy for the court to decide she wasn't stable enough to warrant anything but limited custody. Her mental state never really entered into the equation.

Formfiler, I'd definitely consult with your attorney and see what it would take to "prove" your wife is BPD.

[formflier]

Department of Social Services... . most places call it CPS.  They protect the children... . supposedly.

What is ":)SS"?

I think you are right to not assume your wife will take responsibility and seek change, and also to leave that possibility open.

A few members here have been lucky - their spouses have decided to get help, and have stuck with it, and when that happens, the chance of good progress is very high.

One study showed that more than 80% of people diagnosed with BPD, who get the right kind of treatment and stick with it for five years, achieve "remission of major symptoms";  that is, they still have BPD, just like an alcoholic will always be an alcoholic, but they have learned to act right as often as most of us do.

Unfortunately, most people who have BPD or a similar disorder - and by the way, about half of all people who have BPD also have some other psychological disorder, which makes diagnosis more complicated - most people with BPD never accept the need to get help.  They either deny they have a problem, or say they do but make some excuse not to get help, or they start down the right path but don't stay with it.  So it is not practical to assume that someone with BPD will get better.  You have to prepare for the worst and figure out what you can do to protect yourself and the kids, and rebuild a new life.

[Matt]

Has anyone on this board successfully "proven" the estranged spouse is BPD?

Well that may not be the right objective - it's more important to focus on the behaviors than the diagnosis - but yes, I have.

Here's how I did it:

* I filed a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed - a Ph.D. psychologist whose job was to evaluate the situation and recommend a settlement of the custody issues.

* I neglected to specify that the evaluation should include objective psych evals, but when I met with the CE I asked him about that.  I told him that our marriage counselor - who had been chosen by my wife - had told me "I think Ms. Matt may have BPD." and had encouraged me to read "Stop Walking On Eggshells", which confirmed for me that my wife's behaviors and history lined up well with BPD.  I never said, "She has BPD.", I just told what the counselor had said and what behavior patterns my wife showed.

* The CE asked us both to take the MMPI-2.  I said sure and did it.  My wife stalled til her lawyer told her she better do it, and then she took the evaluation too.  My wife's results showed BPD and other stuff.

* The CE summarized the results in his report and made recommendations, including psychotherapy for my ex.

If we hadn't settled, the next step should have been to find an expert witness to testify about the long-term impact of a parent's BPD on the kids:  high risk of substance abuse, depression, suicide, etc.

It is correct that this strategy adds some cost.  The CE cost $5,000 (which I had to pay, though I got half of it back in the settlement), plus $500 apiece for the MMPI-2.  If I needed an expert witness that would have added thousands, plus my lawyer's fees.

But... . it may be the best money you will ever spend.

[livednlearned]

Formflier,

I just read through your thread a bit -- some things struck me.

One is that I suspect she has been getting ready to file for divorce for a while. She maneuvered to get access to the books, then the car titles, she moved $30K out of your joint checking, and not too subtle -- she has been threatening divorce. You mention her sister (possibly BPD as well) has had a scorched earth divorce and may be coaching your wife.

A lot of pwBPD make false accusations. Your wife has been accusing you of having multiple affairs. If you live in a state with alienation of affection laws, her lawyer will try to play that card in the initial complaint. There has to be proof -- it can't just be your wife thinking that a woman breastfeeding a child is having an affair with you. The way alienation of affection laws works is this: Let's say I am the breadwinner. My ex had an affair. I discover the affair and the "paramour." When I file for divorce, I don't have to pay alimony to my ex because there was an affair. If your wife believes you have had an affair, she will introduce that in the divorce complaint (if she files first) or the counter complaint (if you file first). She has to substantiate her claim. Some counties will also go after the paramour, or try to make you pay additional alimony (if you had an affair). I'm assuming you didn't -- your wife's accusations are similar to the one's my ex made toward me. I stopped having eye contact with men he was so jealous.

My advice to you would be to file first. If you live in a state with legal separation like mine, you would file a divorce complaint. One advantage to filing first is that it prevents her from legally taking the kids to another state. If she decided to take the kids to another state and reside there for more than six months, she can file from there and you'll be spending a lot of time traveling for the various hearings, conferences, etc.

In terms of the $30K -- it's fairly common during the heat of divorce to gut the joint account like she did. A barracuda lawyer would say take it all. A reasonable lawyer would say take half. All that will happen is that the $30K will count against whatever is settled during equitable distribution. If you have $100K, and she took $30K, then you would only have to give her $20K, as an example.

If you file first, keep in mind that the first thing of significance that will happen is a temporary consent order. These temporary orders are pretty much permanent. Depending on where you live, the temporary order might happen through mediation. You're going to need a lot of help from friends here because  -- and no offense intended, we've all been there -- you're a bit of a doormat. Being reasonable gets a lot of us into bad situations, especially after years of being in an abusive relationship.

It's good that your pastor senses she is disordered. Be careful about who you tell she is BPD. If she finds out, she'll get ahead of the message and turn it around on you. You might want to tell someone at work what is about to go down, and let them know she is mentally ill and has threatened a smear campaign. There's not a whole lot you can do. Just know that it's very crazy for anyone to contact someone's employer and air out dirty laundry. It will feel awful, but most reasonable people will find her to be disturbed if she does that. I told my boss and colleagues what was happening and they were some of the best support I found. I discovered my boss had experience with BPD and she took measures to help protect me. Hopefully you'll find the same support where you work.

Don't be passive right now -- find out how the DSS process works, talk to your lawyer, post here often, get lots of support. It's going to be a wild ride going forward.

Definitely do not tell your wife you suspect she is BPD. That will blow up in your face.

Hang in there.  

[ForeverDad]

Since you have some sort of responsible position and you have involvement from outside the county, it sounds like you will could get a reasonably unbiased assessment, possibly more thorough and carefully conducted than normal.  No guarantees of course.  So maybe it'll only be "roller coaster without a seat belt" scary rather than "end of the world" dire and dismal.  Let's hope so.

However, it's likely at least some of the kids will not initially corroborate the recordings.  After all these years under her influence they may feel supporting her the only action they can contemplate.  They may not like the rages but it's what they're accustomed to.  Scary, huh?  That's Stockholm Syndrome.  That's why you need to advocate to DSS and the court that you want all the children in counseling.  Besides, courts love counseling.  Just be sure your spouse doesn't take over the sessions.  Counseling or therapy for the parents is separate from the kids' sessions.  It will almost surely take quite a while for the counselors to undo the outer layers of conditioning before they can open up.

It also will be especially hard for some of them to have consistent senses of what is Right and what is Wrong.  Their mother probably proclaimed what things were based on her Moods of the Moment.  Always in a turmoil and chaos.  Quite confusing.  Give them time, guidance and reinforcement and they'll improve.

In general though, you need to try to keep the kids out of the conflict.  She will of course involve them and you need to find ways to counteract it but you still want them to know you just want them to be kids and not feel forced take sides.  That will be hard.  You'll want to validate their observations.  You'll want to avoid invalidating such as with confusing comments meant to smooth things over like "She's just upset, she still loves you" or "She's only upset some of the time", etc.  Be aware they're used to invalidating themselves, you can gently offer objective observations and guide them to correct conclusions.

Lastly, you mentioned her grabbing a huge chunk of money lately from the joint account.  It may not be illegal but it may be an indication she sensed you were contemplating doing something about the dysfunctional family situation and she needed to feather her nest egg.  As we say, they may be disordered but often they're not dumb (about $$$).  While the court may not force her to return it, if you find it hard to pay for the kids' counseling ask the court for her to return the money and have it held in an escrow or similar account earmarked for the children such as for their counseling expenses.  Be the parent offering sensible solutions!  Maybe not now, maybe not soon, but eventually they'll realize who is the intractable difficult parent and who is the reasonable problem-solving parent.

your wife's accusations are similar to the one's my ex made toward me. I stopped having eye contact with men he was so jealous.

Oh, yeah, I lived that life.  I even avoided looking at women at work, in stores, at the congregation, etc, despite my now-ex being nowhere around.

My advice to you would be to file first.

There is a lot of debate about who files first.  In the past it was generally claimed the one who filed first had the advantage.  But most here comment that gender and who stays home with the kids has far more impact.  Me?  I filed first.  I've never regretted filing first.  Of course, our TPO parenting schedule had ended when the TPOs ended, my ex was thereafter blocking all father-child access and the court had said no parenting schedule would be ordered without one of us filing for long term resolution.  So I filed - and never looked back.  Not that I liked it, no, it was just my only choice left.

These temporary orders are pretty much permanent.

Beware of a lawyer that says, ":)on't worry that it's a terrible temporary order, we'll fix it later."  Later might not occur until the divorce is final.  My court refused to change the temp order during the divorce process.  For me that was 23.5 months!  That despite the custody evaluator report bluntly stating, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can.  Mother should immediately lose temporary custody."  We have some common truisms around here.  One is, "Temporary orders generally morph into permanent orders."  Apparently judges think that if it is 'working' for a while then there's no need to change it and possibly upset the children.

[livednlearned]

My advice to you would be to file first.

There is a lot of debate about who files first.  In the past it was generally claimed the one who filed first had the advantage.  But most here comment that gender and who stays home with the kids has far more impact.  Me?  I filed first.  I've never regretted filing first.  Of course, our TPO parenting schedule had ended when the TPOs ended, my ex was thereafter blocking all father-child access and the court had said no parenting schedule would be ordered without one of us filing for long term resolution.  So I filed - and never looked back.  Not that I liked it, no, it was just my only choice left.

I recommended filing first because she has threatened to take the kids to another state. Agreed, it's debatable about whether there is advantage to file first or not, but without anything filed, a parent can freely take the kids without any legal repercussions. The challenge is figuring out whether it's a bluff or not.

[Matt]

I recommended filing first because she has threatened to take the kids to another state. Agreed, it's debatable about whether there is advantage to file first or not, but without anything filed, a parent can freely take the kids without any legal repercussions. The challenge is figuring out whether it's a bluff or not.

Where I live, it doesn't matter who files first, but it does matter when someone files.

Filing triggers a number of things.  Neither party can make a big purchase, like a house (and you can't sell something big either).  You can't take money out of a joint account, except for normal household expenses.  No big financial decisions til the case is settled.

More important, filing triggers court control over the kids.  As LnL says, that means neither parent can take the kids out of the state (or maybe even out of the county).  Both parents are likely to have regular time with the kids.

It all gets spelled out in the "temporary orders".  When you file - or if the other party files - you can request temporary orders.  Some of them are standard, like the $ issues.  Others are specific to your case.  You might ask for the kids to be assigned a counselor;  for both parents to have equal parenting time;  for both parents to be ordered not to talk to the kids about the legal matters;  etc.

Sometimes our members get stuck in a situation where there are no temporary orders;  the court just doesn't make that a priority.  Usually that's a bad situation for the parent who doesn't have BPD (or whatever);  lack of control favors the crazier party.

So... . this idea of filing quickly, and asking for regular time for the kids, may force the court to hear both sides and maybe some witnesses too.  You might be able to get off the defensive.

[WorriedSibling]

Having just watched my brother spend over $80,000. just to see his child.  He was a nice guy, stupid  but nice.  He took the interest of his child at heart and wacko just used his non-confrontation as a means to destroy.  I can only tell you do not mediate.  It's a waste of money, do not let your lawyer eat up dollars on replies to insane BS from her lawyers.

When they also start to ignore Court Orders don't sit and wait and see if they will get their act together because what ever you dealt with within the relationship only gets worse.   Get a good no-nonsense lawyer immediately.

Be prepared for every to the most unimaginable case accusations , the very thing you thought to be real will be an illusion.  Be prepared for the worst of the worst and then you will survive and  heal.  Sometimes it take so much away time to understand what has happened to you.  I've tried to help my brother through this experience and it's not for the faint of heart so I wouldn't want to tell you it will be easy because it isn't.

Good Luck with your decisions and I hope the heck you are taking notes, all the ducks in paper are in order... . and even with that it's a crap shoot within the legal system.  Be honest, be prepared, don't apologize, and don't forget without sympathy/empathy why you are where you are at the moment.  It's not because you are a bad person it's because the person you have tried/or still trying to deal with has no comprehension of what it is rational or real. 

I'll stop now because my comments sound like a rant and if I've offended anybody I apologize, I can only state what I know and what I know makes me feel sick in my  stomach for what has been done to my brother.   

[formflier]

I have recordings of her in a rage talking about that they are "her" childrend and she gets to decide. 

When I ask about "we"... . there is no compromise. 

Same time she is coaching kids to no spare Daddy's feelings and that what the kids say is going to dertermine custody. 

Please give opinions of how early I should introduce these to counteract he said she said. 

Note:  Nothing filed at this point by either.  She has threatened for years but typical fear campaign.  However... . this is new territory.

Since you have some sort of responsible position and you have involvement from outside the county, it sounds like you will could get a reasonably unbiased assessment, possibly more thorough and carefully conducted than normal.  No guarantees of course.  So maybe it'll only be "roller coaster without a seat belt" scary rather than "end of the world" dire and dismal.  Let's hope so.

However, it's likely at least some of the kids will not initially corroborate the recordings.  After all these years under her influence they may feel supporting her the only action they can contemplate.  They may not like the rages but it's what they're accustomed to.  Scary, huh?  That's Stockholm Syndrome.  That's why you need to advocate to DSS and the court that you want all the children in counseling.  Besides, courts love counseling.  Just be sure your spouse doesn't take over the sessions.  Counseling or therapy for the parents is separate from the kids' sessions.  It will almost surely take quite a while for the counselors to undo the outer layers of conditioning before they can open up.

It also will be especially hard for some of them to have consistent senses of what is Right and what is Wrong.  Their mother probably proclaimed what things were based on her Moods of the Moment.  Always in a turmoil and chaos.  Quite confusing.  Give them time, guidance and reinforcement and they'll improve.

In general though, you need to try to keep the kids out of the conflict.  She will of course involve them and you need to find ways to counteract it but you still want them to know you just want them to be kids and not feel forced take sides.  That will be hard.  You'll want to validate their observations.  You'll want to avoid invalidating such as with confusing comments meant to smooth things over like "She's just upset, she still loves you" or "She's only upset some of the time", etc.  Be aware they're used to invalidating themselves, you can gently offer objective observations and guide them to correct conclusions.

Lastly, you mentioned her grabbing a huge chunk of money lately from the joint account.  It may not be illegal but it may be an indication she sensed you were contemplating doing something about the dysfunctional family situation and she needed to feather her nest egg.  As we say, they may be disordered but often they're not dumb (about $$$).  While the court may not force her to return it, if you find it hard to pay for the kids' counseling ask the court for her to return the money and have it held in an escrow or similar account earmarked for the children such as for their counseling expenses.  Be the parent offering sensible solutions!  Maybe not now, maybe not soon, but eventually they'll realize who is the intractable difficult parent and who is the reasonable problem-solving parent.

your wife's accusations are similar to the one's my ex made toward me. I stopped having eye contact with men he was so jealous.

Oh, yeah, I lived that life.  I even avoided looking at women at work, in stores, at the congregation, etc, despite my now-ex being nowhere around.

My advice to you would be to file first.

There is a lot of debate about who files first.  In the past it was generally claimed the one who filed first had the advantage.  But most here comment that gender and who stays home with the kids has far more impact.  Me?  I filed first.  I've never regretted filing first.  Of course, our TPO parenting schedule had ended when the TPOs ended, my ex was thereafter blocking all father-child access and the court had said no parenting schedule would be ordered without one of us filing for long term resolution.  So I filed - and never looked back.  Not that I liked it, no, it was just my only choice left.

These temporary orders are pretty much permanent.

Beware of a lawyer that says, ":)on't worry that it's a terrible temporary order, we'll fix it later."  Later might not occur until the divorce is final.  My court refused to change the temp order during the divorce process.  For me that was 23.5 months!  That despite the custody evaluator report bluntly stating, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can.  Mother should immediately lose temporary custody."  We have some common truisms around here.  One is, "Temporary orders generally morph into permanent orders."  Apparently judges think that if it is 'working' for a while then there's no need to change it and possibly upset the children.

[formflier]

I'm saying bluff... . or a move to force me to file if she does actually do it.

Luckily... my lawyer is quite firm that I don't have to file to prevent this.

I'm in North Carolina and we have lived here long enough so we can force them to get back here.  He says within 10 days.

My advice to you would be to file first.

There is a lot of debate about who files first.  In the past it was generally claimed the one who filed first had the advantage.  But most here comment that gender and who stays home with the kids has far more impact.  Me?  I filed first.  I've never regretted filing first.  Of course, our TPO parenting schedule had ended when the TPOs ended, my ex was thereafter blocking all father-child access and the court had said no parenting schedule would be ordered without one of us filing for long term resolution.  So I filed - and never looked back.  Not that I liked it, no, it was just my only choice left.

I recommended filing first because she has threatened to take the kids to another state. Agreed, it's debatable about whether there is advantage to file first or not, but without anything filed, a parent can freely take the kids without any legal repercussions. The challenge is figuring out whether it's a bluff or not.

[formflier]

I have watched this play out in our family... . with other divorces.

In that case... . I think my ex bro in law filed to early.  I think the sister in law was bluffing or having a rage and no interest in filing divorce... . but she did want control of kids and situation. 

So she threated to alienate kids or take them away... . but actually didn't.  He did get a more friendly judge because over there (in that state) the filer picks the venue. 

Not so to me.  There seems to be less of an advantage to filing first here.  However... . if something actually happens that is untenable... then I must. 

Very similar to what I did over the massive spanking.  I knew that wasn't a threat... it actually happened... . and I WILL NEVER sit by and be passive about that again.  It was a trend as well... . her discipline has been getting progressively more unreasonable, rage fueled and harsh.

So... if I get written agreement for no more physical punishment... . I think I am good... . for the moment.  That was what I was going for in marriage counseling.  She weakly said no punishment... . but nothing in writing.  She of course said she always keeps her word... . BS.

Having just watched my brother spend over $80,000. just to see his child.  He was a nice guy, stupid  but nice.  He took the interest of his child at heart and wacko just used his non-confrontation as a means to destroy.  I can only tell you do not mediate.  It's a waste of money, do not let your lawyer eat up dollars on replies to insane BS from her lawyers.

When they also start to ignore Court Orders don't sit and wait and see if they will get their act together because what ever you dealt with within the relationship only gets worse.   Get a good no-nonsense lawyer immediately.

Be prepared for every to the most unimaginable case accusations , the very thing you thought to be real will be an illusion.  Be prepared for the worst of the worst and then you will survive and  heal.  Sometimes it take so much away time to understand what has happened to you.  I've tried to help my brother through this experience and it's not for the faint of heart so I wouldn't want to tell you it will be easy because it isn't.

Good Luck with your decisions and I hope the heck you are taking notes, all the ducks in paper are in order... . and even with that it's a crap shoot within the legal system.  Be honest, be prepared, don't apologize, and don't forget without sympathy/empathy why you are where you are at the moment.  It's not because you are a bad person it's because the person you have tried/or still trying to deal with has no comprehension of what it is rational or real. 

I'll stop now because my comments sound like a rant and if I've offended anybody I apologize, I can only state what I know and what I know makes me feel sick in my  stomach for what has been done to my brother.   

[catnap]

She is not going to take responsibility for any of this.  She may pretend to for a bit, then it will go back to the old status quo. 

The disadvantage to waiting is that the recordings/incidents will become "stale" in the eyes of the law.  Your L can tell you how it works where you live. 

BS is right, she will not stop.  She may get more covert in her "punishments".  Verbal abuse should be mentioned also as part of her promise.  I would not count on your children telling you about stuff if you are not there.