How can you tell of your parent had NPD?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hey,

Sorry I keep poping in and out at random… but I read a blog today about NPD parents that reminded me of my mother in a rather chilling kind of way. This by far wasn’t the first time I read something about NPD that was very reminiscent of her mind you… and my therapist stated and hinted a couple of times that in her opinion my mother was very narcissistic (though she won’t say directly whether she thinks my mother had full blown NPD). And one time I even read through an NPD forum and it was amazing how much their way of talking/thinking reminded me of her.

Ever since she died I’ve become very prone to idealizing her and this has even given me problems when writing about her here. For that matter, I even tend to feel guilty even when I so much as think anything negative about her and so every time the “did she also have NPD?” question came up I kind of shoved it aside and didn’t want to deal with it. In fact, I’d let it go all together and just refuse to think about it if it weren’t for that fact that I kind of think it might be affecting my life even to this day, even though she’s already gone. Then again… maybe I’m wrong and maybe it really makes no difference what she had now?

Erm… anyway… how can one tell if a parent had NPD or strong NPD traits?

[justnothing]

Hey,

Sorry I keep poping in and out at random… but I read a blog today about NPD parents that reminded me of my mother in a rather chilling kind of way. This by far wasn’t the first time I read something about NPD that was very reminiscent of her mind you… and my therapist stated and hinted a couple of times that in her opinion my mother was very narcissistic (though she won’t say directly whether she thinks my mother had full blown NPD). And one time I even read through an NPD forum and it was amazing how much their way of talking/thinking reminded me of her.

Ever since she died I’ve become very prone to idealizing her and this has even given me problems when writing about her here. For that matter, I even tend to feel guilty even when I so much as think anything negative about her and so every time the “did she also have NPD?” question came up I kind of shoved it aside and didn’t want to deal with it. In fact, I’d let it go all together and just refuse to think about it if it weren’t for that fact that I kind of think it might be affecting my life even to this day, even though she’s already gone. Then again… maybe I’m wrong and maybe it really makes no difference what she had now?

Erm… anyway… how can one tell if a parent had NPD or strong NPD traits?

[P.F.Change]

These might help:

What is the relationship between BPD and narcissism (NPD)?

TOOLS: Family systems--understanding the narcissistic family

You may not be able to say definitively whether your mother had NPD or not. In some ways it may help to have information so that you can make a little more sense of things, and in other ways the diagnosis itself is not terribly important. What matters is that you are able to take a look at your experiences and what you went through and find a way to resolve your past so that you can thrive. Have you had a look at the Survivor's Guide? There is a summary over in the right-hand margin with clickable sub-steps that might be helpful to you.

I think a lot of people idealize the departed. I think it may be part of the bargaining phase of grief. What would it mean if your mother wasn't perfect--if she had a personality disorder? Would you be a bad person if you acknowledged all sides of her?

Wishing you peace,

PF

[justnothing]

Thanks for your reply and for the articles. I know you’re right and that it doesn’t essentially matter whether she had the disorder or not…. I guess part of why I wanted to know was to determine whether or not I had the “right” to look up info/resources for adult children of NPD parents (by right I mean in the sense of not falsely “accusing” her of anything in retrospect… if that makes any sense).

I’m not bothered by the idea of her having a personality disorder in itself (eg. I’m not bothered by the idea of her having BPD) it’s just the idea of NPD that bothers me for some reason… I asked my therapist once if her having NPD might mean that she never loved me but my T said that that’s not necessarily the case…

I have looked through the survivors guide in the past and just gave it another read now btw… somehow I’m finding it much easier to read nowadays… which I reckon is probably a good sign…

[P.F.Change]

I guess part of why I wanted to know was to determine whether or not I had the “right” to look up info/resources for adult children of NPD parents (by right I mean in the sense of not falsely “accusing” her of anything in retrospect…

Sometimes I find information helpful that is written for children of alcoholics. My parents weren't alcoholics. Looking at that information and learning from it is not the same thing as accusing them of being alcoholics. And I imagine if they were alcoholics, that information would be even more helpful to me.

I think you have a right to look at whatever resources help you, justnothing. If your mother had NPD, info for ACoNs will probably be very helpful. If she did not have NPD, it might still be helpful. There is nothing wrong with looking for support and information, wherever you need to look.

Many of us will never know 100% for sure whether our parent has a particular disorder, because they may never be seen by a professional who is qualified to make that kind of diagnosis. Still, we can see that we have enough in common to help each other recover from the wounds of our childhoods. 

I asked my therapist once if her having NPD might mean that she never loved me but my T said that that’s not necessarily the case…

It sounds like you are worried that if your mother had NPD then she couldn't love you--is that right? What would it mean if your mother never loved you?

[justnothing]

Thanks again for your reply P.F.Change. I suppose you’re right and there’s a good chance it might be helpful, whether he had the disorder itself, just the traits or not at all… The reason I’m afraid of making “a mistake” is that I’m afraid of “needlessly” destroying her image in my mind… although maybe I’m just afraid of destroying it in my mind regardless. I’ve also asked my therapist about this several times and for some reason she also seems in favor of me leaving my mother’s self image in tact…

It sounds like you are worried that if your mother had NPD then she couldn't love you--is that right? What would it mean if your mother never loved you?

Humm… that’s a pretty good question actually… in theory I suppose it might not mean anything now that she’s dead… but on the other hand I’ve sometimes kind of felt like a part of me would be totally destroyed if it turned out she didn’t. Maybe on some level I’d feel like I never had any value in the first place because my value always kind of depended on her.

For some reason she often felt a need to emphasize that she loved me. She’d be like “do you know that I love you and that I’d do anything for you?”and I’d have to reassure her that I did (she also often used to say to me “I don’t think you love me!” but I’m not sure if that’s related). I think if she ever saw signs in me that I “didn’t think she loved me” she might have seen it as a failure on her part and/or like I didn’t acknowledge everything she’d done for me while raising me… which seemed to be a big part of her own self-worth… So I guess you could say that the notion of her not loving me has always been kind of a taboo subject.

[StarStruck]

Hi justnothing -

I understand why you need to get to the bottom of it. You just want to know, I was the same with mine. It took me a while to settle on what I did because she has a fair bit of NPD traits. I will never know for sure.

It wouldn't have changed anything either way for me, which I settled on but it helped me build a picture of the root of it all and how that fed in to the family tree and really understanding it all completely.

The hardest realisation for me was that to my knowledge both BPD and NPD mean lack of empathy and that the love I thought she would automatically have for me, if she were to have one of these awful things, wouldn't be there in the same way I understood love. It would mean the love was conditional rather than unconditional.

That hurt a great deal to come to terms with at first. It was my reluctance to see this straight away (also knowledge - we are taught that 'a mothers love' etc), that made me doubt what I knew to be the truth and what I went on to diagnose in her.

She did love me but it was conditional. Whereas I love unconditionally.

It also obviously makes you look at yourself, hard. Which you have to allow the time and kindness for and then be prepared to change what you need to secure a happy life. This bit came after and it made complete sense what I concluded my Mom had... . high functioning BPD/NPD, her life that reflected on me and also the experiences I had up to that date. I have been on a process of discovery ever since.

Anyway I think I've gone on a tangent.

I can understand why your therapist wants to leave it intact as is because it sounds like you are on a process of discovery and you can do all the work you need to do without thinking about how your value was reflected by what she thought. Because it didn't matter what she thought in the sense of finding your true self. You can do that without her. You can determine who and what you are, not the bits she valued but the whole you and what you value. You can feel good about you for you. It's just a learning process but a great one. Some of the things my Mom used to value about me I found not very important and some of the ones she missed were the best bits.

good luck and a lot of joy 

[P.F.Change]

You can determine who and what you are, not the bits she valued but the whole you and what you value. You can feel good about you for you. It's just a learning process but a great one.

[justnothing]

Thanks for your reply StarStruck.

I suppose I don’t really need to know the truth in order to figure myself out, in a way. It was more like I wanted to know where to look…

I don’t think she wanted to hurt me on purpose… but there was a particular thing I was looking up the other day and NPD came up in google…

You can determine who and what you are, not the bits she valued but the whole you and what you value. You can feel good about you for you. It's just a learning process but a great one.

Thank you. That’s very well put…

[Gowest]

Sometimes I find information helpful that is written for children of alcoholics. My parents weren't alcoholics. Looking at that information and learning from it is not the same thing as accusing them of being alcoholics. And I imagine if they were alcoholics, that information would be even more helpful to me.

Yes, this right here. The first time I read Understanding the Borderline Mother, I didn't see her in the book at all. But I did see myself in the experiences and feelings of the children. I think she is actually more of a narcissist than a borderline, but the book still helped so much.

I'm still working on whether she wants to hurt me on purpose. The question of whether she loved/loves me or not is long settled (the answer is no) but whether she is really a sick and evil sadist... . don't know. My ex definitely wasn't, he was borderline through and through. But my mother isn't like him.

[StarStruck]

Hi justnothing,

I suppose I don’t really need to know the truth in order to figure myself out, in a way. It was more like I wanted to know where to look…

Do you mean where to look to find yourself? Observe yourself closely then thinking/considering. Get in touch with your natural instincts and for things and life. Or did you mean literally where to look to find about your mom... ?

In ref to you dreading the thought of NPD, I don't think there's anything in it they are just different. BPD being more sensitive in nature to NPD but they as children had similar experience with regard to parenting. Maybe it's because NPD seem as being less caring in a more obvious way, colder. Whereas BPD seem more in need more human maybe.

Current research shows that theres more chance of BPD turning themselves around than NPD but that if they go to a therapist. From friends I know that have been with NPD women and BPD women, they have had more of a turbulent time with BPD though. Think thats a bit like saying though "both of my feet have been run over, which one hurts the most?"

For me NPD or BPD for my mom would not change the impact its had on me and the journey I have to take. Don't feel bad about thinking your mom could have anyway of the conditions, don't hold yourself back on what you need to do to make you great again or for the first time. If she didn't have any of them she would love you and know you had to look into it... . if she did have a disorder... then she'd just have to deal with it that for once your going to come out on top. As she sadly isn't here, she might even think beyond that fight and think blimin good luck to you .

I don’t think she wanted to hurt me on purpose… but there was a particular thing I was looking up the other day and NPD came up in google…

I don't think they think in terms of hurting on purpose but they have to do what it takes to make themselves feel good and that will be at the expense of others. I have known NPD to be ruthless when it comes to winning (thats when manipulation, hurting on purpose could come in). Both of them have the lack of empathy though and both of them have fuzzy boundaries and draw there feelings self worth from others. In ref to NPD partners, they will be with someone who will cry for them at a funeral, whilst they stand there looking out the church window. I think they feel less guilt than BPD and more sense of entitlement.

Obviously NPD & BPD are victims of NPD/BPD/ASPD themselves (they are children that haven't been treated who are unaware)... . doesn't mean it should be at anyones expense but they have a behavioural illness.

In ref to child development, should also say that we all have so many different people in our lives that often children will side with a well balanced relatives/experiences over a disordered ones. Meaning just because one or both parents have a problem doesn't mean that they haven't been great, outstanding influences for that child.

[StarStruck]

Couple of additional things:

when asking myself the same question did my mom have NPD... the difference for me was how emotional she was. My experience of NPD they are not anyway near as implusive and emotional when with other people (all types of emotion, showing vulnerability). So mine has high functioning BPD queen/witch style with or without the NPD. There can be both, they are both also in the cluster B personality disorders.

Obviously NPD & BPD are victims of NPD/BPD/ASPD themselves (they are children that haven't been treated who are unaware)... . doesn't mean it should be at anyones expense but they have a behavioural illness.

I am not sure but I think personality disorders can occur also even if the parents aren't disordered themselves, lazy parenting, over spoiling but then comes in all the nature/nurture stuff. Invalidation a big problem too. Anyway thought I should add that in.

I'd be interested what everyone else on here thinks about that too?

[StarStruck]

just thought of something else... . when I have been in contact with BPD... . confusion and annoyance. NPD... . in a relationship the feelings more empty.

My parent I felt confused then empty, 'down' (maybe because painful) with some run in's, episodes. Someone whom is highly co dependent can also make you feel confused and annoyed though if they are very Evasive and not straight to the point, they can also be invalidating almost without meaning to or meaning harm because they don't like being direct about their needs but they still want they're needs met. Someone whom is highly co dep looks very different from someone that has a few traits of it, to my mind. I've seen this extreme, it can almost look like they lack empathy, which isn't true of them. Obviously they don't have the temper tantrums, or rage.

The extreme ones bend over backwards for everyone, then wonder why the same isn't done for them, then get annoyed about it. So will help to their determent then moan about what they've been through.

Makes your head spin doesn't it  

[justnothing]

Thanks for the replies and for all the feedback.

I did mean literally where to look btw, resource wise, but as you’ve all pointed out, I suppose it doesn’t necessarily have to be spot on in order to be helpful…

I talked about it with my therapist today… among several other things… she did say again that having NPD doesn’t necessarily mean my mother didn’t love me and that she doesn’t think she did any of it on purpose…

BPD doesn’t leave me feeling confused or annoyed btw… NPD seems kind of odd though…

I wouldn’t have tried looking into this at all if it weren’t for something I wanted/needed to look into…

I hadn’t been in any real relationship in over 4 years now. For a long time I figured it might be just as well, for everyone’s sake, to never get involved in one, and a brief read of my firsts posts might let you know what I mean.

Anyway, despite that, there’s this guy at work who seems nice and whom I seem to have a lot in common with. The conversations just flow and all. Not that that necessarily means anything or that it could necessarily lead to anything but it did kind of get me thinking about it. But for so many reasons and on so many levels I feel like wanting him is just wrong.

My mother and I were both just as messed up, in all the same ways and on the same level and there were just no emotional boundaries between us… and very few sexual ones and it was just as much my fault as it was hers. So, even if that’s not rational, a big part of me just can’t not be ashamed of wanting anyone nowadays.

[P.F.Change]

But for so many reasons and on so many levels I feel like wanting him is just wrong.

... . So, even if that’s not rational, a big part of me just can’t not be ashamed of wanting anyone nowadays.

 It is so normal to want someone. Most people really long for closeness and intimacy with other people, and it's normal for us to grow up and want to have a romantic partner. It is okay that you want to be with someone you are attracted to--that's what's supposed to happen.

I have felt similarly to you before. I once loved a young man very much but for whatever reason felt like I wasn't supposed to want that particular person; I felt incredibly guilty for having feelings for him and struggled a lot with trying to pretend I didn't. He was and is a wonderful person, and there was absolutely nothing wrong with being completely infatuated with him or wanting him. But somehow I had in my head that there was a "right" and a "wrong" and that he wasn't "right" so my feelings must be "wrong." I started a relationship with someone else and then felt even more guilty when I continued having feelings for him. It was a very painful time.

Now that I am older, if I could go back and talk to younger me, I would say, "Go for it! Have feelings! It is okay, just give it a try and take a chance and see what happens. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be close to someone, and he seems to really love you, too." At the time I didn't know how to do that, and it led to a lot of pain. I would hate to see that happen to you. So I will tell you what I would tell myself--go for it. Take a chance and see what happens.  Even if it ends up not working out as a romantic relationship, there's nothing wrong with trying. Everyone needs to feel close to someone.

Have you seen this? Healing - Shame in Adulthood and How We Move Forward as Children of pwBPD Do you feel a sense of inner shame is holding you back?

[justnothing]

 It is so normal to want someone. Most people really long for closeness and intimacy with other people, and it's normal for us to grow up and want to have a romantic partner. It is okay that you want to be with someone you are attracted to--that's what's supposed to happen.

Thank you very, very much P.F.Change…. I needed to hear that…

Do you feel a sense of inner shame is holding you back?

Oh most definitely, and it’s over several different things and on several different levels…

Thank you again to you and everyone for your support this has been very helpful.

[Ziggiddy]

justnothing

I felt light headed with relief and comprehension reading this thread - in particular some of your comments:

Ever since she died I’ve become very prone to idealizing her and this has even given me problems when writing about her here.

For that matter, I even tend to feel guilty even when I so much as think anything negative about her and so every time the “did she also have NPD?” question came up I kind of shoved it aside and didn’t want to deal with it.

In fact, I’d let it go all together and just refuse to think about it if it weren’t for that fact that I kind of think it might be affecting my life even to this day, even though she’s already gone. Then again… maybe I’m wrong and maybe it really makes no difference what she had now?

Firstly I am very sorry for your loss. It is difficult to work through BPD issues even when you have a continuous stream of behaviour to observe - how much more so when your feelings are challenged by the remorse and grief at her death. In investigating her character  you are no doubt tender of the idea of losing your intact memories of her as well as her physical presence.

Like you I feel guilty for even having 'bad' thoughts about my mother (even slightly guilty for enjoying the memories that are free of her influence - go figure)

There is a quote from a book which I particularly like that sums up how differently we feel at the memory of a loved one when alive and then when not "He had passed over into the white majesty of death." In the big picture, your mother was a composite of ALL the memories you have - good AND bad. I had a close friend who died and I recall hearing all the wonderful things people had to say about him after but also a friend saying "Yeah but even though he was funny and loved life, he was a complete ratbag at times. Remember the time he ... . ?" It really affected me and I thought I hope that people will put the whole of me together after I pass away and not whiten me too far into majesty! if they can do that, they'll be truly loving the real me - warts and all.

I also totally get where you're coming from in regards to defining BPD v NPD. I can live with the BPD 'diagnosis' much easier than the NPD one. There just seems a much stronger negativity associated with the latter one to me. I am nauseous at the idea in fact. But as someone said to me "The truth will set you free." I am getting a little panicky at the thought of it but edging closer every day.

I'd hazard a guess that if you think it's affecting you day to day it probably is. Things like this can bubble away can't they?

As for a growing interest in someone, I agree with PF -  it is entirely natural and a wonderful thing. I wonder if you are finding it hard to give yourself permission to keep on living. Or more to keep on living and to experience joy in it? If it were you who had passed away, would you want others to still get joy from  their life? It's natural to feel guilt - after all our loved ones aren't continuing in life but your heart possibly knows that it is okay if you are. And it is  the best balm on a hurt soul to be with people who you like, who you love and yes, even people you are attracted to!

I wish you joy and peace, justnothing. Thank you for your honest words and your courage in putting them out there. This thread has helped me no end

[justnothing]

Like you I feel guilty for even having 'bad' thoughts about my mother (even slightly guilty for enjoying the memories that are free of her influence - go figure)

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. For the first year or so after she died, I’d sometimes remember things like a movie I’d seen or something or another I’d experienced back when she was alive – without her being there – and would actually feel guilty for having spent that moment without her. It was like “what was I doing wasting that precious time I could have been spending with her”… but this was in spite of the fact that while she was alive I felt quite stifled by her. Towards the end she would pretty much beg me to watch movies with her or talk to her or whatnot and I just couldn’t because even just being around her was too much for me. I can’t really say that I’m entirely over that guilt but it’s at least much lesser now than it was before.

I guess you could say I always felt responsible for her feelings and her happiness. I suppose I was probably conditioned to feel that way… but even knowing that doesn’t change it. The truth of the matter is, even after having lived quite well without her for the past two years, if she were to come back from the dead I’d still take her back in and we’d go back to living together even if that would mean throwing my life away. And for that matter, I’d do it even if I thought she didn’t love me at all. I suppose that’s probably not a very healthy sign huh?

There is a quote from a book which I particularly like that sums up how differently we feel at the memory of a loved one when alive and then when not "He had passed over into the white majesty of death." In the big picture, your mother was a composite of ALL the memories you have - good AND bad. I had a close friend who died and I recall hearing all the wonderful things people had to say about him after but also a friend saying "Yeah but even though he was funny and loved life, he was a complete ratbag at times. Remember the time he ... . ?" It really affected me and I thought I hope that people will put the whole of me together after I pass away and not whiten me too far into majesty! if they can do that, they'll be truly loving the real me - warts and all.

That reminds me a bit of “Speaker for the Dead” by Orson Scott Card.  He has the same notion as what you just mentioned, of remembering the dead as they really were and loving or at least honoring all of them instead of just the good parts. In a way I guess you could say that that’s what real love is all about… loving everything about a person, including the bad parts. I must say, this site has helped me a lot when it came to coming to terms with her whole memory. For several months right after her death I was OK with the idea of totally idealizing her (even though I knew that that’s what I was doing)… and then something reminded me of how much I’d hated her… and then I just needed to be able to talk about it all and figure out how to get to a point of equilibrium. I suppose I chould/should probably learn to come to terms with the NPD traits notion too… only there’s still that persistent “you traitor” and “I just don’t want to think about it” thing going on in my head anyway.

As for a growing interest in someone, I agree with PF -  it is entirely natural and a wonderful thing. I wonder if you are finding it hard to give yourself permission to keep on living. Or more to keep on living and to experience joy in it? If it were you who had passed away, would you want others to still get joy from  their life? It's natural to feel guilt - after all our loved ones aren't continuing in life but your heart possibly knows that it is okay if you are. And it is  the best balm on a hurt soul to be with people who you like, who you love and yes, even people you are attracted to!

Thank you… I know you’re right and I wouldn’t want people to stop living after I died. I don’t think she’d have wanted that for me either for that matter (she has no need for me to stay home with her nowadays anyway). For a long while after she died there had been a definite element of “what right do I have to go on living after she’s gone” though. My therapist actually made a house call right after, just to make sure I wasn’t going to kill myself, and everybody else who knew me seemed surprised that I didn’t have a complete breakdown… if it had happened a few years earlier I probably would have.

Actually it’s not really so much about that, with this guy. It’s more like A) I don’t feel worthy of him (he seems so  healthy and together), B) I’m afraid of hurting him (despite the fact that I don’t have that bad of a track record with previous bfs and I even made a point of asking two of my exes what they thought of it in retrospect)… but most of all – C) I’m just ashamed of being attracted to anybody. My mother never actually molested me per se (at least as far as I can remember) but there was plenty of covert stuff and part of me is like “that was all your fault” and that’s what I associate with being attracted to anybody. (Oh, and also D) she never wanted me to have any friends and certainly no bfs, she denied that that was the case but her actions spoke louder than words).

I wish you joy and peace, justnothing. Thank you for your honest words and your courage in putting them out there. This thread has helped me no end

Thank you Ziggiddy I wish you the same and it’s good to hear that this thread was helpful not just for me.