Anyone overtalked when about to make a valid point?

[AG]

Has anyone ever experienced talking logical sense into your ex and just when you are about to hit the point where what you are about to say is going to obviously have the most value you are cut off amd overtalked. Almost as if they literally already know what you are going to say and want to shut it off before they hear something of value. This ish happened to me many of times and almost all of the time it would really annoy me to the maxx. There is a scene in Austin Powers forgot which one where one of the characters was talking rationally and each time he tried to get a word out the other character kep saying zip it louder and louder. Or kinda like two children arguing and the other one covering her ears and saying lalalalalal I cant hear you. Lol... . what the heck is up with that?

[LoveLove]

YES! As I was talking and moving towards a point that he was well aware that was logical... . he would start talking OVER me and louder and would continue talking as though I hadn't even been speaking.

As you stated, it seems that they KNOW you are about to make a valid point and they don't want to hear it. It almost makes me think that this "mental disorder" is a disorder to a certain degree only... . they are able to control everything and most seem to be intelligent (to a point)... . very odd behavior and very annoying and frustrating to say the least!

[AwakenedOne]

Besides overtalking and screaming she'd often be breaking cr*p during the "conversation" or she'd just walk off in the middle and call her fkn evil mom for some bff girl talk.

[Blimblam]

Yes!

Mine would respond with things by taking tiny bits of what it was I would be saying and twisting it around to make it into an argument in which she was the victim. Then I would be in some bad guy role she created for me.  Accusations of being " needy and controlling"  It would trigger me sometimes and I would tell her to get away from me because she would be in my room and I didn't want to play into the role she created but in the end she always got her way.  Then she would freak out citing her abandonment issues, telling me "I don't understand what you want me to do."  Then when I would begin to tell her she wouldn't listen to a word I would say. Still in her panic mode that she would somehow twist it into hurting me through devaluation or cheating on me and gas lighting me. The resentment was obvious and it hurt me.

she would have a few lucid moments when I would calmly tell her, "I am not your dad I don't want to control you. I just want you to see me for who I am and try to understand that I need help sometimes also."  she fell into this pattern of rebelling against me as if I was her Dad trying to control her.  It usually revolved around me holding her accountable for something.

[LoveLove]

Wow, I'm so sorry... . it's incredibly frustrating to be in a "relationship" with them. And this was the first time I've experienced this... . and honestly, not worth the mind games, the instability... . simply unhealthy.

AND they want to blame us for being "controlling"... . really?  

[Mutt]

Yes often. Especially when I was trying to reason logic and point out that what she was saying wasn't understood, or making sense. In those moments she would talk over me, or act childish, usually she would put her hands over her ears and say "shut up I'm not listening to you!" repeatedly. It goes to show she is emotionally immature, arrested emotional development. Frustrating to say the least and goes to show how she's incapable of having a mature interpersonal relationship.

[AG]

when I think back I should have probably just said, "fine now Daddys gonna get his," and bent her over my knee and spanked her ass and F***d the ish out of her.

You mad me die laughing with this one. I doubt that would have worked though knowing them when they are in rage mode or not takong responsibility mode you touch them and there probably would be hell to pay. They are ridiculous when they behave like that so I totally get ur metaphor. I needed this laugh

[AG]

Yes often. Especially when I was trying to reason logic and point out that what she was saying wasn't understood, or making sense. In those moments she would talk over me, or act childish, usually she would put her hands over her ears and say "shut up I'm not listening to you!" repeatedly. It goes to show she is emotionally immature, arrested emotional development. Frustrating to say the least and goes to show how she's incapable of having a mature interpersonal relationship.

Mutt I needed this one for sure it resonated with me for some reason. Kind of a light bulb clicking on. Preach on brother preach keep helping me detach. Good one for sure

[AwakenedOne]

Is a 3yr old interested in logic or what's valid? From what I have read and am told here the emotional state of someone with BPD is a 3yr old unfortunately for us.

I learned this math equation though while I was with my ex. I will share this arithmetic formula with you good people. It is really a formula which you can use also in your cases past or future.

FORMULA

My Thoughts + Concerns + Ideas + Her (uBPDex)= Future

Ok now I will apply this math formula to our marriage:

Thoughts - How I feel about anything in general

Concerns - What I feel is important

Ideas - Hopes and dreams and plans to make them come true

Her - My wife

Future - Um... . um... . um... . The Future.

Ok final presentation:

Thoughts + Concerns + Ideas + Her (Didn't give a ___ about anything but herself) = DOOMED

***Legal Note***

Do not distribute this math formula to others in numbers larger than 7 without expressed written consent and documentation verifying this consent from the author of this study (Myself). You are free to make copies and distribute (up to 7 copies) but no sales or profits or any form of compensation such as your friend giving you a bag of Cheetos as a form of payment for a copy of this math equation for example shall be allowed under worldwide and universal standards. Martian standards would then supersede if you make copies of this if the earth ever colonizes Mars and you live there. Although in this case the author does not allow you to give a copy of this to E.T. if you see him there while residing on Mars. You shall be required to deny the formulas existence and it's meaning thereof regarding this matter.  

[AG]

Is a 3yr old interested in logic or what's valid? From what I have read and am told here the emotional state of someone with BPD is a 3yr old unfortunately for us.

I learned this math equation though while I was with my ex. I will share this arithmetic formula with you good people. It is really a formula which you can use also in your cases past or future.

FORMULA

My Thoughts + Concerns + Ideas + Her (uBPDex)= Future

Ok now I will apply this math formula to our marriage:

Thoughts - How I feel about anything in general

Concerns - What I feel is important

Ideas - Hopes and dreams and plans to make them come true

Her - My wife

Future - Um... . um... . um... . The Future.

Ok final presentation:

Thoughts + Concerns + Ideas + Her (Didn't give a ___ about anything but herself) = DOOMED

***Legal Note***

Do not distribute this math formula to others in numbers larger than 7 without expressed written consent and documentation verifying this consent from the author of this study (Myself). You are free to make copies and distribute (up to 7 copies) but no sales or profits or any form of compensation such as your friend giving you a bag of Cheetos as a form of payment for a copy of this math equation for example shall be allowed under worldwide and universal standards. Martian standards would then supersede if you make copies of this if the earth ever colonizes Mars and you live there. Although in this case the author does not allow you to give a copy of this to E.T. if you see him there while residing on Mars. You shall be required to deny the formulas existence and it's meaning thereof regarding this matter.  

Thats good math right there my friend. Doesnt get better then that. Lmfao at the disclaimer

[rougeetnoir]

Once my ex discovered that this mad me angry (something I communicated clearly), she would-- I think-- do it on purpose, until it made me explode.  Then, once I had exploded, she became the victim.

[Mutt]

Once my ex discovered that this mad me angry (something I communicated clearly), she would-- I think-- do it on purpose, until it made me explode.  Then, once I had exploded, she became the victim.

Thanks AG. I'm glad that I could be of help. AO raises a good point that we are dealing with someone with the emotional development level of a 2-3 year old, a regressed borderline.

rougeetnoir I'm glad you pointed that out. It's a no-win situation, you are both triggering each other. You feel frustrated, resentful, emasculated  when you are trying  to communicate and you are being invalidated and your voice is not being heard. It's a perpetual cycle that corrodes your self-esteem. I didn't feel like I was the same man entering the r/s over a long period of time I felt emotionally exausted, a shell of my prior self. As if I was losing my identity and individuality.

NC or minimal contact if you have children breaks this cycle of triggering each other and creates a buffer from the FOG, we begin to see the forest for the trees. We absolutely need to detach ourselves from the borderline and radically accept our trauma.

As a side note a coworker made a comment today "Mutt, you seem like a completely different person, your more outgoing and not keeping to yourself, you seem completely changed" He knows about my divorce, I didn't go into detail about PD. I credit that to the members here and the work that I've done through the material. I own that.

I told him "I did a 180, let's say I did a lot of work in the last 14 months" Be kind to yourself through this process, it takes time, the hardest part is detaching, stay the course. You will get there, you will be OK.

[Red Sky]

This was exactly how my relationship started making me feel bad. Her favorite (after I dumped her) was the 'I WILL NEVER FIND LOVE' game. I honestly don't know how else to describe it. She would start talking about how she was too stupid/ugly etc to be attractive to anyone. Forcing me to disagree, and try to bolster her confidence without giving the idea that I was still attracted to her. I think I failed there and she still viewed me as her gf for months after the breakup.

The game would always end when she accused me of being a bully or a trigger, because I was so insistent that she wasn't a waste of space or life. And yet every single time I reacted the same way, because how else do you respond to someone basically saying that they don't think they deserve to be happy?

[Dutched]

Up to a certain point I can understand being overtalked. However in my humble opinion this in not typically BPD.

When we relate it to our work surroundings, we are confronted to all kind of people.

People that bully, people looking for a confrontation, venting, etc.

People who are not open for change, therefore “twist” arguments around.

Are all our team meetings constructive, or are there members that sabotages a valid point?

Don’t we all experience a certain feeling when confronted with our faults in a meeting

(what is our response…, how do we behave…?)

Haven’t we all sometimes a sense of what the other person is going to say, sometimes feel the need to complete a sentence for them?

In discussions/negotiations it is a very known tactic to of balance the other party at the moment you “pick a detail”, better tiny bits of what was said by the other.

 

Related to BPD when you confront them, a much more deeper feeling  (of shame) is triggered, as you became at that point a persecutor. Therefore to protect oneself one must use it’s “talents” to avoid shame, pain, etc.

BPD feelings and view is highly invalidated when we try to “talking logical sense into them”, so a no-win situation is created / circular arguments are started.

Is a 4 year old open for logic or do we validate and try to talk in a way they can understand?

Don’t misunderstand me however, it took me a 26 yrs. to figure out with exw. 

And when figured out I learned and learned to keep my family together, outburst minimized, discussions became “smoother”, but by then she that last stage of total devaluation already in progress…

[Danie14]

Yes, yes, and yes. It’s to the point where I don’t really even talk to him anymore. Why? What’s the point? He’s not listening and what he does hear he chooses to understand it in whatever way he wants to anyway.

Mostly it’s his impulsiveness, his lack of filter on his thoughts, and his need to be right at any cost that causes these communication issues. I know that I contribute to this by being the quite, logical one. He can’t or won’t seem to grasp the simplest logic if that logic contradicts his own ideas or if that logic threatens his sense of…idk, safety? Well, if it involves ‘change’ in any form then it threatens his safety. I’m still thinking on that one.

I remember years ago, he’d get so mad, spewing angry because I didn’t respond to him in a fury or crazy woman type of way. He’d do things to make me jealous right in front of me…and when I didn’t respond like he expected (shoot, go get her honey and don’t look back at me!) He’d go off saying that I don’t love him, that I don’t care, that I’m a cold hearted b-word….then if I had enough and did go off on him…telling him all the things that I had to say…BOLT he’s out the door….yelling, shouting, not hearing, not understanding….really, not wanting to hear or understand. Now, I’m getting back closer to who I am, who I really am….and he just has to deal with it. I’m not going to be the screaming yelling woman ever again. Never. I don’t even know who that person was…

Sometimes it’s really hard to not go off when all my buttons are being pressed…but I tell myself that I will not be manipulated, that I will not allow this crap to define me or my mood/emotions…and I try to find that calm place inside of me (as the world rages around me)…and I do my thing. He doesn’t like this and that’s one of the reasons why I’ve decided I need to leave him and am working my plan out.

I love this forum, I love that I have a place to actually write this down where there are others who actually understand. It’s weird how all the ‘relationship’ advice out there for ‘normal’ types of relationships is literally all completely wrong when it comes to BPD. I was trying and trying, reading and reading, doing and doing…and nothing changed, nothing. Now I understand why…because all the typical relationship advice is about giving and giving to your partner…in the scope of a normal non type relationship that’s great because the other naturally will give back (if they love you) and it’s like a balancing act between the two…so as both have safety within the relationship….however, with a BPD that typical relationship advice is literally dangerous for the non’s because the BPD is a bottomless pit which can never be filled or even satisfied. So we give and give and end up empty for all the taking….and it just doesn’t matter to them because they do not have the capacity to understand….they literally cannot grasp the idea that the needs of others are important, valid, real, and acceptable.

Sorry, got a bit carried away…

I told him "I did a 180, let's say I did a lot of work in the last 14 months" Be kind to yourself through this process, it takes time, the hardest part is detaching, stay the course. You will get there, you will be OK.

I needed to hear this today…sometimes it feels like it’s hopeless and I find myself wanting to just sink down again…but I can’t, I can’t do that…I have to keep moving forward…thanks for this…Stay the Course!

[Tincup]

This would happen to me as well.  But the piece that really used to drive me crazy was when I would make my point she would ALWAYS say something like "I'm sorry YOU don't understand XYZ".  We even had a HUGE blowout because I asked her opinion one time (on colors for paint on a wall at my house).  I ended up not painting the room that color.  After a week of silent treatment I finally got her to "talk" to me.  She said that she wasn't sure she wanted to continue with the relationship because I didn't value her opinion because I asked for her opinion and then did not use it... . Any time I asked her opinion after that (even if it was where she wanted to go to dinner) she would not give me an opinion.  So frustrating to deal with.

[Changingman]

Yes to all this.


Quote

she would have a few lucid moments when I would calmly tell her, "I am not your dad I don't want to control you. I just want you to see me for who I am and try to understand that I need help sometimes also."  she fell into this pattern of rebelling against me as if I was her Dad trying to control her.  It usually revolved around me holding her accountable for something.

Mine said on several occasions when I refused to budge on something that was harmful to her and was plain sensible.

'You're not my father'

This was times like she was in A&E waiting for stitches in her face for an 'accident'.

Mine was on the psychopathic side of the spectrum. 4 years! God I've got so much to change. I had got us to a really great place I thought and then the crying and psychotic episodes, next crisis, abortion, 4 years and we're still here! then the next crisis then got a lot calmer ( cheating ) then devaluation... . for 6 months, when I was just about to find out... . she RAN (thank The Lord )

Took me 6 months to understand what had happened,  PTSD etc. 'Crazy making' I thought at first referred to events, then I realised it meant I had been slowly going mad.

Still have anger/anxiety issues but I'm working on it. The world is much better without this mess, you have been programmed for abuse but it leaves you. Hang in there.

You're not my Dad! Oh lord no

[woodsposse]

 

I think we all, from time to time, have had the same experience with the circular logic arguments, talking over one another, us-nons thinking we can logically get across anything to them, while they sit there and say the same thing about us.  Depending on who is the stronger of the two wills... . someone is going to rage, and someone is going to shut down (maybe walk out the room, escape the argument, or just not want to talk for 3 or 4 days).

The sad part is  - in this scenario, I have been so guilty of all of it. 

Yes, the arguments can be frustrating, and can tend to go on for hours... . sometimes, if not a lot of the times, I was the one willing to be in it for hours... . as long as I had to to make my point.  My point was so entirely chrystal clear that I was willing to fight tooth and nail to get her to hear it and understand it.

Maybe we would settle things and get to some intimate time.

Maybe we wouldn't and one of us ends up sulking for days (usually me cause I just didn't know what else to do to get her to understand me).

So, in this case... . I wouldn't be so hard on the pwPD... . because it takes two to tango (especially in an argument).

PD or not... . why did we stay in the long winded circular logic conversation/argument?

Why was our point so big and bearing that we had to do whatever we needed to do to get the point across?

Maybe we stayed in those arguments as long as we needed to because we stayed in the r/s with them as long as we needed to (and some of us even after the r/s is gone are still stuck in that mode).

So if there is something wrong with them... . then what is wrong with us (you) for wanting to engage in such arguments?  There is something inside of us (you, me) which allows us to stay there. Not only stay, but want to stay and put up with the frustration and agitation.

I mean, if you were having a conversation with a 5 year old who really can't understand your logic (because she's 5), I'm sure you wouldn't get upset at her, mostly because she's five and probably still eats her boogers... . nor would you sit there for hours, getting frustrated, because the 5 year old won't understand and keep using different ways to say the same thing while she is sitting there eating boogers.

No, that wouldn't happen.

And, of course, what would on lookers say about your mental stability that you are arguing with a 5 year old booger eating know nothing (mostly cause she's five).

They would say we (you) are the ones mentally ill to do such a thing... . to a child... . with a mouth full of boogers.

But I digress.

The point I'm trying to make is - wheter we knew it was a PD or not, we stayed.  The question is... . why.

[Red Sky]

I feel exactly what you just said. Like you I fought and fought - I would have fought endlessly to make that girl feel good about herself. I DID fight endlessly for a while

I know I didn't do it to make me feel good about myself, or because I got pleasure from the fight. I hate arguments. I didn't know what else to say in the face of so much persistence I guess... .

[Red Sky]

Posted in wrong thread - sorry - can't work out how to delete this!

[Mutt]

I think we all, from time to time, have had the same experience with the circular logic arguments, talking over one another, us-nons thinking we can logically get across anything to them, while they sit there and say the same thing about us.  Depending on who is the stronger of the two wills... . someone is going to rage, and someone is going to shut down (maybe walk out the room, escape the argument, or just not want to talk for 3 or 4 days).

The sad part is  - in this scenario, I have been so guilty of all of it. 

Yes, the arguments can be frustrating, and can tend to go on for hours... . sometimes, if not a lot of the times, I was the one willing to be in it for hours... . as long as I had to to make my point.  My point was so entirely chrystal clear that I was willing to fight tooth and nail to get her to hear it and understand it.

Maybe we would settle things and get to some intimate time.

Maybe we wouldn't and one of us ends up sulking for days (usually me cause I just didn't know what else to do to get her to understand me).

So, in this case... . I wouldn't be so hard on the pwPD... . because it takes two to tango (especially in an argument).

PD or not... . why did we stay in the long winded circular logic conversation/argument?

Why was our point so big and bearing that we had to do whatever we needed to do to get the point across?

Maybe we stayed in those arguments as long as we needed to because we stayed in the r/s with them as long as we needed to (and some of us even after the r/s is gone are still stuck in that mode).

So if there is something wrong with them... . then what is wrong with us (you) for wanting to engage in such arguments?  There is something inside of us (you, me) which allows us to stay there. Not only stay, but want to stay and put up with the frustration and agitation.

I mean, if you were having a conversation with a 5 year old who really can't understand your logic (because she's 5), I'm sure you wouldn't get upset at her, mostly because she's five and probably still eats her boogers... . nor would you sit there for hours, getting frustrated, because the 5 year old won't understand and keep using different ways to say the same thing while she is sitting there eating boogers.

No, that wouldn't happen.

And, of course, what would on lookers say about your mental stability that you are arguing with a 5 year old booger eating know nothing (mostly cause she's five).

They would say we (you) are the ones mentally ill to do such a thing... . to a child... . with a mouth full of boogers.

But I digress.

The point I'm trying to make is - wheter we knew it was a PD or not, we stayed.  The question is... . why.

You raise a good point woodsposse. It takes two to tango and I was making things worse by becoming defensive and engaging to try to get her to listen to my side of the story. Crazy making behavior when you repeat the same thing, expecting different results and I'm arguing with someone with the emotional maturity of a child.

I had no choice this week but to call her for a matter with daycare and the kids. It's an issue what was going on for several weeks and she had pulled them out. I found that out when I was at the daycare to apply under my name. I made the call and she was intense and angry but I didn't engage. I validated her feelings and didn't blame and wasn't defensive and I was able to communicate with her and resolve the issue. By the end of the call which lasted around 10 minutes she had calmed down. Feelings are facts not facts then feelings to a BPD. I would not be telling the truth if her projections didn't phase me a little. I disengaged and I have a thicker skin now knowing why she acts the way she acts and I was able to settle a matter and communicate with her.

[Arminius]

I was frequently accused of being controlling. I know she told others I was controlling but I really wasn't. It took me a lwow to time to realise that I was the one being controlled... . I'd been made to feel I was such a bad, controlling manipulator that I just didn't challenge anything!

I'd been controlled in to doing nothing, ever!

When I ceased challenging anything, when I 'went with the flow' on almost everything, well, that's when the devaluation started, I think.

It's almost as if she wanted to break me before discarding me.

[Blimblam]

When I ceased challenging anything, when I 'went with the flow' on almost everything, well, that's when the devaluation started, I think.

It's almost as if she wanted to break me before discarding me.

Part of my search far what was real and what was a lie had me thinking about when the devaluation actually started. And WHen I think about it I think they don't want to break you. In fact I think they resent us for being 'weak" and making them break us.  its like a game and they resent us for it so they might as well try to find joy in it. Then once they see they can hurt us so easily they lose all respect for us. They resent us for that too.

I think the moment we make them feel insecure in their ability to love is when the resentment begins. and the decision to devalue.

[free-n-clear]

Only Every Single Time!

***Legal Note***

Do not distribute this math formula to others in numbers larger than 7 without expressed written consent and documentation verifying this consent from the author of this study (Myself). You are free to make copies and distribute (up to 7 copies) but no sales or profits or any form of compensation such as your friend giving you a bag of Cheetos as a form of payment for a copy of this math equation for example shall be allowed under worldwide and universal standards. Martian standards would then supersede if you make copies of this if the earth ever colonizes Mars and you live there. Although in this case the author does not allow you to give a copy of this to E.T. if you see him there while residing on Mars. You shall be required to deny the formulas existence and it's meaning thereof regarding this matter.

       

Nice to see you haven't lost your sense of humour, Dr Cooper!  

[Red Sky]

When I ceased challenging anything, when I 'went with the flow' on almost everything, well, that's when the devaluation started, I think.

It's almost as if she wanted to break me before discarding me.

Oooh I've just realized that this is when stuff started going really bad for me too! I got a huge project at work which had me doing long hours all the time, and when I didn't have the time to talk for hours I tried to shut conversations down politely but firmly. She always said 'it's okay, I know you're busy' but every time I talked to her she got more and more anxious until it reached a crisis point.

Never actually saw before that there was a pattern. I couldn't work out if I was the cause of her increasing anxiety or whether I just exacerbated it by not giving her an outlet, but now I see it correlates so well to when I stopped overtalking... .

[Alex86]

When I ceased challenging anything, when I 'went with the flow' on almost everything, well, that's when the devaluation started, I think.

That's when she asked me: "what is wrong with us? we don't argue for everything. Real couples are arguing every day. There is something wrong."

And from that moment all went to hell.

[Blimblam]

When I ceased challenging anything, when I 'went with the flow' on almost everything, well, that's when the devaluation started, I think.

That's when she asked me: "what is wrong with us? we don't argue for everything. Real couples are arguing every day. There is something wrong."

And from that moment all went to hell.

this might sound really wrong to make this comparison.  But I think its something akin to a dog that will get away with more and more if one is not always firm and consistant in the bounderies.  They want us to be the "alpha" and when the moment arrives when we invalidate them in a way where we say something like , "don't you understand?" and we try to explain some basic human emotions to them is when it starts.  They wanted us to just make firm boundaries but we enstead exposed them and disapproved and they will resent that moment. And start to devalue.  Then when they find the chink in the armour with the devaluing we have proven ourselves as too weak to be the person she wanted us to be and then they lose respect.  Once the respect is gone then comes the cheating, constant lies and and constant invalidation and gaslighting.

I don't think they ever stop Triangulation so all the pieces are lined up already. It is me thinking back on the the level of Triangulation going on that I realize I was just a pawn I wasn't blimblam I was an object in her fantasy doll house.

[Alex86]

They want us to be the "alpha" and when the moment arrives when we invalidate them in a way where we say something like , "don't you understand?" and we try to explain some basic human emotions to them is when it starts.  They wanted us to just make firm boundaries but we enstead exposed them and disapproved and they will resent that moment. And start to devalue.  Then when they find the chink in the armour with the devaluing we have proven ourselves as too weak to be the person she wanted us to be and then they lose respect.  Once the respect is gone then comes the cheating, constant lies and and constant invalidation and gaslighting.

Blimbland, your points are valid in this discussion. I think we are also triggered by certain

events and can't be the "alpha" to give them a direction all the time.

I would like to add some other factors in this behaviour.

Such as:

-boringness. They might say something to trigger you because of that.

-submissiveness. They like to be yelled at. So then they play the victim.

-responsibility avoidance

-self-centeredness + dissociation. During those times they don't care about

your feelings at all. They are focused on themselves.

-testing!They test you on everything because of their lack of trust.

[Red Sky]

Liking to be the victim, to be yelled at... . I never made that link before and yet actually it explains so many interactions I had. Things where I simply expressed a viewpoint, not judging or condemning or angry, and she responded with 'I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm such a nuisance'. I always put it down to poor self worth and a belief that her views weren't valid but I still wondered how that could account for the intensity of the response. (I'm really, really not an intimidating person... . There is nobody who would cower from me, especially if I'm not even angry... . )

[woodsposse]

 

Well I am, or can be, and intimidating person.  Depending on who you talk to. Some people are just intimidated by another person who knows what they want and are confident in how they speak.  But in my case - I can stare you down and make you cry... . if I wanted.

That said, there were tons and tons and tons of time I was the meekest, mildest person in the room.  Not saying things to be confrontational, not trying to out talk her or get my point across for hours and hours because I know what I'm saying is so simple why can't she understand it... . and still, it would get pushed and pushed and pushed until what I was saying did sound intimidating or even yelling (or being stern)... . and gets frustrated and all the argument starts... . all the while I'm trying to express my anger boundaries and it get louder and louder and she gets to play victim.

I get angry and walk away from the conflict - and I'm abandoning her.

I sulk for a day or two trying to gather my peace/center - and I'm ignoring her.

I calm down... . feel a bit in a better place so we could do this relationship thing and try and love each other - and I'm sucking up because I want sex

We have sex - because I wanted to have sex with her (duh!)

A day or two goes by and the whole process starts all over again.