The fact that the pwBPD is "ill" as opposed to them being a bad person.

[Infared]

I still struggle with totally owning the fact that that person that I had my relationship with was ill.  If I could "totally" own that fact 24/7 I think I would not have a lot of my internal sadness, pain and anger that I still have long after the relationship.  Sometimes I clearly see this illness in my ex and the experiences that I went through... . but at other times my take on the situation has the expectation that the pwBPD  was an bad or evil person and that they should/could make "normal" decent choices on how they behaved, but chose not to be a good person. It still tears me up. Anyone else feel this way?

[slimmiller]

Yup. Very much so at times.

The better I detach and distance myself from her, which includes only texting/e-mailing about the kids, the more I see a sadly sick, sometimes disturbed person that I 'used' to know.

But at the end of the day I kind of feel like its still a 'choice' on her part. Not a choice to be disfunctioning but a choice in the sense that she refuses to even entertain the idea of taking any responsibility for her disfunction. Instead she is a bull in a china shop in an emotional sense and she dont give two figs about the damage she does to everyone, including herself.

I am not sure about 'ill' sometime, maybe somewhat 'possesed' in a sense. Almost like a bad movie plot spilling into real life.

(I have told folks that the 'zombies' or posessed people are already among us, we call it BPD, A joke yes but its almost like at times they are robotic beings outside of even their own control)

[antjs]

Infared yes i think most people here experience so. i believe it happens for the following reasons:


1- we do not want to admit to ourselves that we have been with and intimate to a disordered person cause it is subconsciously shameful for us.

2- we are puzzled cause there were good times. we tend to cling to these good parts and forget about the bad ones. even when we remember the bad ones we get the hope that it might not happen again. thats why it took as some time to get out.

3- i was in for 6 weeks only and now i have been in NC for more than 2 months now and i am just beginning to feel ok. i informed my therapist that i am astonished at how it is taking me so long just for 6 weeks. my therapist told me that detaching from a relationship with a borderline is one of the hardest things you are going to do ever. because there were a lot of projections and introjections. because you caught up some toxicity the time you were around her. he even told me that detaching from a borderline is harder than detaching from a psychopath ! in the end of the relationship with a psychopath you might be angry that there was a number done on you but there will be no longing for this person. in the end of the relationship with a borderline, you have been subjected to the same type of abuse but there is longing. and this confusion or contradiction gets you more stuck in your sadness.



feel better soon 

[Red Sky]

This thinking is actually my downfall. I do have a good idea how it started. Through school ili had a couple of friendships which were actually really toxic and messed up for a little kid. My mother always used lines like 'you have to be nice to her because her parents are divorcing.' It's too long ago, and one's perceptions are too different in childhood, for me to judge how nice or not nice I was in the first place. My inkling is that I've always been a bit passive-aggressive.

And so my relationships with people with PDs, diagnosed or not, have always sort of been based on the same principle. They had a hard childhood, it's not surprising they have some issues now... . They're a good person really. And without this mentality I would probably have escaped A WHOLE LOT SOONER.

A friend once said to me 'honey, just because someone is messed up doesn't give them the right to treat you badly', and it took me so long to get to understanding that I didn't actually NEED to have endless patience and tolerance... . That I needed to save my own skin.

So maybe it goes both ways. Maybe it helps me to be more tolerant of people's actions. But it definitely makes me TOO tolerant, and I SHOULD in the past have accepted that there is a degree of choice involved.

[BacknthSaddle]

Personally I think this is a false dichotomy.  If we mean by "ill" that a person has some issue that prevents them from functioning optimally and with joy in our community, then these people are ill.  If we mean by "bad" that a person consistently brings pain to the lives of others and does so without genuine empathy or remorse, then many of these people are "bad" as well.

I think the issue of whether it's their "fault" or not is a non-productive way of thinking about it.  Is it a smoker's "fault" that he has emphysema and can't breathe?  Of course!  But that doesn't mean that emphysema isn't an illness. 

The thing that makes them unable to function optimally in the community ("illness" is also the thing that makes them wreak havoc on the lives of others ("bad".  Both are not just true, but by this way of looking at it, necessarily true together.

[seeking balance]

I still struggle with totally owning the fact that that person that I had my relationship with was ill.  If I could "totally" own that fact 24/7 I think I would not have a lot of my internal sadness, pain and anger that I still have long after the relationship.  Sometimes I clearly see this illness in my ex and the experiences that I went through... . but at other times my take on the situation has the expectation that the pwBPD  was an bad or evil person and that they should/could make "normal" decent choices on how they behaved, but chose not to be a good person. It still tears me up. Anyone else feel this way?

I can tell you it took me time to resolve my own pain/sadness - there were times I was totally ok with the BPD, compassionate and understanding and other times I was frankly pissed about all the crappy behaviors.

This is why we need the time to process these emotions - because the fact is this:  my ex's behavior was horrible at times and the relationship is very over.  Whether she could have changed or not, does not matter because right here right now - my life is totally different.  Processing the anger and sadness still must occur even if we accept BPD as a mental illness being real.  They are not mutually exclusive.

For the record, it gets better and there is a peace that comes in all this.

Radical Acceptance is one of the best concepts and practices that I have learned from the emotional chaos.

The way you feel, it will balance out with some time.

Peace,

SB

[MustangMan]

I agree with BackontheSaddle.  For me a someone with BPD is emotionnally like a two year old.  Would you blame a two-year old baby for its strong and out-of-control emotions or blame him for the negative impact he has on people around?  Sorry, I have lived with two BPDs in my life and suffered (and still suffering) a lot, but I will never call them bad.  I think that if those people were given the choice to get back to normal by magic one day, none of them would stay with their mental illness.   They also suffer for the pain they cause.   To call them bad is to apply to them the rational way of thinking that normal people have.   This is also why we usually don't send mentally ill person to jail for their crime, they don't need punishment, they need help from specialists.  It is easy to judge and let go your anger toward the one who hurt you, but it is way more rewarding to look inside you and let go the anger to live a healthy life again.

[Red Sky]

I think the problem is that we are all to a certain extent irrational. We can say that we are hurt by the actions of a pwBPD whilst knowing that they are doing it because they are ill. I think that the attribution of blame comes as a subconscious knee-jerk reaction to unkind words or actions based on the fact that we DO hold most people accountable for their actions. Therefore you can say that you recognise it is not their fault but it's harder not to blame them anyway.

[BacknthSaddle]

Right.  If by "bad" you mean "someone who repeatedly does bad things," then yes I would say that many are bad.  When we tell a child he is being a "bad boy," we mean that he is doing bad things, not that he is fundamentally bad.  But ultimately I think the question of whether or not it's "their fault" really leads nowhere. They are ill in the sense that they don't function properly.  They do a lot of bad things and cause a lot of hurt.  Regardless of the reasons, you probably want to avoid people who do lots of bad things in your life.  

[MustangMan]

Regardless of the reasons, you probably want to avoid people who do lots of bad things in your life.  

After recovering from my first experience with BPD, I was strongly convinced that I would never ever be in a relationship with someone with BPD ever again.  When I met my actual udBPDgf, I was constantly looking for red flag of any kind of mentall illness.  After a few months of healthy r/s I invited her to stay at my place to share the rent.  This was only after that she begin showing the signs of BPD.  I realized that she played really well her role of normal girl for a few months.   I am telling my story to show that sometimes, no matter how much you try to avoid a situation, you might unconciously attract the bad behaviors.  Since a week or two I realized that I was displaying unhealthy caretaker behaviors toward my exGF, acting like the knight in shiny armor that could save the girl from her misery and therefore that I had to change my own behaviors to "avoid people who do a lot of bads things in my life".

[BacknthSaddle]

Mustang Man: I agree with you completely.  I just meant to point out that the question of whether or not someone is "bad" is not necessarily as important as the question of whether or not they are "bad for you."

[Infared]

Personally I think this is a false dichotomy.  If we mean by "ill" that a person has some issue that prevents them from functioning optimally and with joy in our community, then these people are ill.  If we mean by "bad" that a person consistently brings pain to the lives of others and does so without genuine empathy or remorse, then many of these people are "bad" as well.

I think the issue of whether it's their "fault" or not is a non-productive way of thinking about it.  Is it a smoker's "fault" that he has emphysema and can't breathe?  Of course!  But that doesn't mean that emphysema isn't an illness. 

The thing that makes them unable to function optimally in the community ("illness" is also the thing that makes them wreak havoc on the lives of others ("bad".  Both are not just true, but by this way of looking at it, necessarily true together.

Well... I am not a tech. writer... . LOL>... . I mean if you have mental illness... . you are disposed by the illness to act in certain ways... . where if you are a bad person... . you are calculating and clearly making choices to hurt others, being self-centered etc.

I actually think that your emphysema analogy is bogus.  If a young child suffers mental anguish from abandonment of abuse... . this is not something that they chose?  The smoker chose of his/her own free will to smoke cigarettes... thus they chose to cause themselves to have emphysema. Nobody to point the finger at other than themselves. This is clearly not the case with the cause of BPD. If you are mentally damaged and compelled to act a certain way that is harmful to yourself and others because you have a mental illness ... . that is very different than plotting, planning and just being self-centered and abusive because you can or want to.

Hope that that is clearer. 

[BacknthSaddle]

I'm just trying to clarify the terms a bit.  As noted above, "bad" can be used in several different ways, as can ill.  It sounds like what you're really saying you've struggled with is: do they choose to be this way or is it entirely out of their control.  Is that right?

[Infared]

I agree with BackontheSaddle.  For me a someone with BPD is emotionnally like a two year old.  Would you blame a two-year old baby for its strong and out-of-control emotions or blame him for the negative impact he has on people around?  Sorry, I have lived with two BPDs in my life and suffered (and still suffering) a lot, but I will never call them bad.  I think that if those people were given the choice to get back to normal by magic one day, none of them would stay with their mental illness.   They also suffer for the pain they cause.   To call them bad is to apply to them the rational way of thinking that normal people have.   This is also why we usually don't send mentally ill person to jail for their crime, they don't need punishment, they need help from specialists.  It is easy to judge and let go your anger toward the one who hurt you, but it is way more rewarding to look inside you and let go the anger to live a healthy life again.

I guess the whole point of my post is that I just can't always think in my mind that the pwBPD is ill (mentally I know it but my heart doesn't own it all of the time)... .  ya... know... I am human... . if you have a traumatic interaction with a pwBPD and you take it personally... . get really angry and resentful at the person... . they are just sick... . but I have trouble always owning that ... . and it causes a lot of the pain... . it is like this dichotomy in my head that sways in two directions ... . I have trouble always thinking "this person is mentally ill... don't take it personally"... .

Just wondered if others who have been in these relationships oscillate with these feelings like I do, too.  Not trying to start a semantics argument.

[Infared]

I'm just trying to clarify the terms a bit.  As noted above, "bad" can be used in several different ways, as can ill.  It sounds like what you're really saying you've struggled with is: do they choose to be this way or is it entirely out of their control.  Is that right?

Well... . basically I am saying if they have BPD it is out of their control... . right?  ... but I am saying on any given day I have trouble acknowledging that in my mind and I take the behavior personally instead of blowing it off as an illness. And when I do take it personally I end up in a lot of emotional pain.  In other words... . I can't always see that they are ill.  I fluctuate... and it is that fluctuation and their behavior that can cause me to suffer on any given day.

[maternal]

In my experience, and also writings I've found online written by BPD Sufferers, they know that they hurt those close to them, yet they can't really seem to help it, and they hate themselves even more when they do it. I can't even imagine what it must be like for them to constantly suffer and be so dang lost in life and to feel so alone even though they are the cause of their own loneliness. I have very much empathy for those suffering, and I have trouble considering any one of them "bad" people.

That doesn't condone or justify any of that horrible behavior and it doesn't mean that I want that type of behavior in my life, but I do feel sorry for what they have to go through within themselves 24 hours a day.

[Mutt]

I still struggle with totally owning the fact that that person that I had my relationship with was ill.  If I could "totally" own that fact 24/7 I think I would not have a lot of my internal sadness, pain and anger that I still have long after the relationship.  Sometimes I clearly see this illness in my ex and the experiences that I went through... . but at other times my take on the situation has the expectation that the pwBPD  was an bad or evil person and that they should/could make "normal" decent choices on how they behaved, but chose not to be a good person. It still tears me up. Anyone else feel this way?

I can tell you it took me time to resolve my own pain/sadness - there were times I was totally ok with the BPD, compassionate and understanding and other times I was frankly pissed about all the crappy behaviors.

This is why we need the time to process these emotions - because the fact is this:  my ex's behavior was horrible at times and the relationship is very over.  Whether she could have changed or not, does not matter because right here right now - my life is totally different.  Processing the anger and sadness still must occur even if we accept BPD as a mental illness being real.  They are not mutually exclusive.

For the record, it gets better and there is a peace that comes in all this.

Radical Acceptance is one of the best concepts and practices that I have learned from the emotional chaos.

The way you feel, it will balance out with some time.

Peace,

SB

I think seeking balance is absolutely spot on. Reading about BPD and radical acceptance helped me in depersonalizing my ex's behaviors and emotional chaos. It takes time but we have to be patient with ourselves and process the pain and anger as seeking balance said.

Having said that, I still get phased from time to time by ex's crappy behavior's too after the r/s is over, but I have a much thicker skin through indifference and knowing how the disorder works.

[BacknthSaddle]

Ah, I see.  It's so hard for me to think of everything as being "out of their control."  There are, after all, BPD sufferers who go through DBT and ultimately recover.  They are certainly a minority, but they exist.  So is it not in everyone with BPD's "control" to seek help?

Here's another analogy you might find specious: a person with Type 1 Diabetes has no control over the fact that his body doesn't make insulin.  The first time he goes to the hospital with high blood sugar, it was totally out of his control.  After that though, after he's been prescribed insulin, then if he refuses to take it and goes back to the hospital, it is completely his fault, right?  BPD people behave a certain way.  If it is pointed out to them repeatedly that they need help, but certain ones refuse to get help, then is it still right to call their behaviors "out of their control."

Just to be clear: I have experienced what you've experienced exactly, many times.  I think a lot of it has to do with what antony james said above.  So, instead of bouncing back and forth, I'm trying to find ways to understand the whole illness that allow for both explanations, since, in my gut, they both seem true.  

[MustangMan]

A lot of the confusion comes from the moments when the BPD acts completely normal and is functional.   I understand it is hard to clearly distinguish a bad behavior that comes from the disorder than the ones not "influenced" by the disorder.

[Mutt]

Ah, I see.  It's so hard for me to think of everything as being "out of their control."  There are, after all, BPD sufferers who go through DBT and ultimately recover.  They are certainly a minority, but they exist.  So is it not in everyone with BPD's "control" to seek help?

Here's another analogy you might find specious: a person with Type 1 Diabetes has no control over the fact that his body doesn't make insulin.  The first time he goes to the hospital with high blood sugar, it was totally out of his control.  After that though, after he's been prescribed insulin, then if he refuses to take it and goes back to the hospital, it is completely his fault, right?  BPD people behave a certain way.  If it is pointed out to them repeatedly that they need help, but certain ones refuse to get help, then is it still right to call their behaviors "out of their control."

Just to be clear: I have experienced what you've experienced exactly, many times.  I think a lot of it has to do with what antony james said above.  So, instead of bouncing back and forth, I'm trying to find ways to understand the whole illness that allow for both explanations, since, in my gut, they both seem true.  

Some pwBPD are more aware than others; they are not all the same and they have a series of defense mechanisms to protect their core abandonment trauma. I suggest checking AJ Mahari's material, she is a recovered BPD, both parents were BPD and she was in a relationship with a BPD after she recovered. She explains the disorder very well from both sides, the non and the disordered.

[Red Sky]

Maternal, you make a good point. My exBPDgf had a lot of therapy. She REALLY wanted to get better. She wasn't conscious of all her BPD behaviours, I think. But she did make a choice to recover and when she recognised a harmful impulse she would fight it. She desperately regretted that her disorder made it hard for her to keep a partner. I emphatically believe that if she could have controlled all of her BPD impulses, she would have, which makes it hard to recognise her as 'bad' even if she was 'a bad influence in my life'.

If you aren't aware you have a disorder, I guess it makes it a lot harder to effect that change, or even to recognise that not everyone goes through life feeling like you. I do find that difficult to equate with actually doing things that you know are wrong/immoral/hurtful.

[BacknthSaddle]

To be clear, I agree with seeking balance and Mutt that this is an illness and that radical acceptance is the only answer. My point is more that I don't find thinking about whether they are "bad people" as productive as simply saying "they are people who often do the things that bad people do." If I think of it that way, then I don't really care if they're bad people or not. I just know it's best for me to stay away.

[BacknthSaddle]

Maybe I'm getting bogged down in semantics, but I guess along the line of what red sky is saying: I think it is possible to acknowledge that they have an illness while simultaneously acknowledging that they do make choices, as all humans. Sometimes I know I can get so wrapped up in the illness that I convince myself that my ex was completely incapable of making choices and this was not responsible for any of her actions. Which, of course, is what she thinks and what was so corrosive to the relationship. There has to be balance in the understanding.

Also, I know I'll find myself saying "she'd make only good choices if it weren't for the illness," which I realize now is a form of idealization, a form of splitting the white "real her" from the black "illness." Not healthy, and probably relates to what Antony James said about feeling shame for getting involved with someone who was disordered.

[Red Sky]

VERY useful to remember that nons split too. I did it with my uNPD ex as a way of denying that I was actually in an abusive relationship, so shame was a HUGE factor there. 'It's not abusive if it's not intended to hurt you.' My BPD ex described abuse in one of her previous relationships where our approaches sounded (in retrospect) alarmingly similar.

[BorisAcusio]

As BacknthSaddle pointed out, someone who "consistently brings pain to the lives of others and does so without genuine empathy or remorse" could be considered "bad". It's not part of the scientific terminology for a reason, just a set of character traits we label this way in colloquial language.

Borderlines are "created" by early developmental failures, there is not much choice given to them, whether it was genetic predisposition or result of an abusive upringing.

People of bad character, disordered, ill. It can be all be true at the same time.

[BorisAcusio]

Also, I know I'll find myself saying "she'd make only good choices if it weren't for the illness," which I realize now is a form of idealization, a form of splitting the white "real her" from the black "illness." Not healthy, and probably relates to what Antony James said about feeling shame for getting involved with someone who was disordered.

True and wise words.

[BorisAcusio]

Ah, I see.  It's so hard for me to think of everything as being "out of their control."  There are, after all, BPD sufferers who go through DBT and ultimately recover.  They are certainly a minority, but they exist.  So is it not in everyone with BPD's "control" to seek help?

Here's another analogy you might find specious: a person with Type 1 Diabetes has no control over the fact that his body doesn't make insulin.  The first time he goes to the hospital with high blood sugar, it was totally out of his control.  After that though, after he's been prescribed insulin, then if he refuses to take it and goes back to the hospital, it is completely his fault, right?  BPD people behave a certain way.  If it is pointed out to them repeatedly that they need help, but certain ones refuse to get help, then is it still right to call their behaviors "out of their control."

Just to be clear: I have experienced what you've experienced exactly, many times.  I think a lot of it has to do with what antony james said above.  So, instead of bouncing back and forth, I'm trying to find ways to understand the whole illness that allow for both explanations, since, in my gut, they both seem true.  

Some pwBPD are more aware than others; they are not all the same and they have a series of defense mechanisms to protect their core abandonment trauma. I suggest checking AJ Mahari's material, she is a recovered BPD, both parents were BPD and she was in a relationship with a BPD after she recovered. She explains the disorder very well from both sides, the non and the disordered.

I would only recommend Mahari's material after one got familiar with Kernberg's or Masterson's work, with the basic framework of objects relations theory.

[Infared]

Infared yes i think most people here experience so. i believe it happens for the following reasons:


1- we do not want to admit to ourselves that we have been with and intimate to a disordered person cause it is subconsciously shameful for us.

2- we are puzzled cause there were good times. we tend to cling to these good parts and forget about the bad ones. even when we remember the bad ones we get the hope that it might not happen again. thats why it took as some time to get out.

3- i was in for 6 weeks only and now i have been in NC for more than 2 months now and i am just beginning to feel ok. i informed my therapist that i am astonished at how it is taking me so long just for 6 weeks. my therapist told me that detaching from a relationship with a borderline is one of the hardest things you are going to do ever. because there were a lot of projections and introjections. because you caught up some toxicity the time you were around her. he even told me that detaching from a borderline is harder than detaching from a psychopath ! in the end of the relationship with a psychopath you might be angry that there was a number done on you but there will be no longing for this person. in the end of the relationship with a borderline, you have been subjected to the same type of abuse but there is longing. and this confusion or contradiction gets you more stuck in your sadness.



feel better soon 

AJ... . I agree with a lot of what you said... . but I did not experience any shame personally in my situation.   I did experience a LOT of sadness and emotional pain at the loss of the relationship and as a result of the way I was treated. I did not know about BPD when I went through all of that.  I was lied to and mistreated, (whether the person was mentally ill or not,  the behavior is the behavior). I was trusting faithful and honest to the person... . I did not get that in return (again whether they are mentally ill or not Lyon and cheating is lying and cheating... . the behavior is the behavior). I truly had NOTHING to be ashamed of.

Knowing that the person was mentally ill helps me sort thru the situation and arrive at a more accepting place in my pysche. It eases the pain... kind of like: all of that stuff wast't done "to"  me. It was done because the person had some serious mental problems. Plus in my case she was an expert at hiding everything. Extremely talented in that dept.

[Infared]

Maybe I'm getting bogged down in semantics, but I guess along the line of what red sky is saying: I think it is possible to acknowledge that they have an illness while simultaneously acknowledging that they do make choices, as all humans. Sometimes I know I can get so wrapped up in the illness that I convince myself that my ex was completely incapable of making choices and this was not responsible for any of her actions. Which, of course, is what she thinks and what was so corrosive to the relationship. There has to be balance in the understanding.

Also, I know I'll find myself saying "she'd make only good choices if it weren't for the illness," which I realize now is a form of idealization, a form of splitting the white "real her" from the black "illness." Not healthy, and probably relates to what Antony James said about feeling shame for getting involved with someone who was disordered.

A lot of good points... . there really are a lot of shades of gray here ... . it certainly isn't a clear cut situation and all situations have there own paticular nuances with both individuals in the relationship... .