Crazy texts out of nowhere...

[Youcantfoolme]

My brothers birthday is coming up next weekend. Since my mom feels as if she hasn't spent any quality time with him since he got married, she simply asked if just her and him could get dinner alone at some point during the week. My brother replied to her text and said yes.

The next day he called my mom and told her he was really offended that she didn't want his wife there. (His wife is the PwBPD in this). He said he didn't want to celebrate his birthday without her there. My mom responded by just telling him she just wanted to spend one on one time. In reality, my mom isn't too happy with his wife since she has broken up our family however she didn't say anything negative about her during this conversation. Needless to say it turned Into an argument. In the past, my mom and brother going to dinner and spending time together without a significant other was normal. She really didn't think she was asking too much.

That was about three days ago. She hasn't spoken to him since. Tonight she is out to dinner with a friend and out of nowhere she's starts getting these random texts from his wife saying, "you think my husband is going to want to go out for his birthday dinner without his wife? Obviously NOT!". My mom ignored it and didn't respond. A half hour later she gets yet another text. "I AM his wife, I AM his family!".

I just don't understand what prompted her to text this to my mom out of the clear blue sky. If if were days ago I'd understand. I also don't get why she's so unbelievably offended. My moms birthday is in a few weeks and guess what? She can't spend her birthday with both of her kids at the same time because my brothers wife will not allow him to speak with me! My mom isn't complaining about that. I just don't understand the rationale here. I spend time with my family all the time without my husband. He doesn't get offended. He probably enjoys the time to himself. Why do these people take offense to everything?

[Botswana Agate]

Hmm, this is a tough one.  One the one hand, I can see where the texts from the BPD-spouse may seem off-putting.

But on the other hand, I'm actually going to side with the spouse on this one.  She's right, she and her husband are the immediate family now, whereas parents and siblings are extended family.  If it were me, and my husband's mother kept asking for alone time with him without me, I'd be plenty upset too, BPD or not.  

Is your brother aware of his wife's BPD, and how that will affect their marriage?  Is he willing to put Mom on the back burner to put his wife and marriage first, so his wife feels secure and together they can get the BPD under control (if such a thing is possible)?

[Botswana Agate]

I should modify what I just wrote there; I apologize if I sounded harsh at first.

What I meant was, yes, the husband and wife come first before any extended family, IMO.  Certainly, one of the spouses having BPD throws an interesting variable into the mix.  This was something my BPDm *always* complained about with my Dad--he *ALWAYS* chose his mother over her, ALWAYS.  I don't even know how much of that is true.  I don't know how much of that is because he genuinely chose my grandmother over her, wanted to help his widowed and living alone mother out, or because he took himself and us kids over there to give himself and us a break from her and her rages. . . probably a good mix of both.  I wouldn't be surprised if he took us over to my grandmother's with the best of intentions on my mother's behalf--to give HER a break--and paid for it later, who knows.

Now that I'm married with kids of my own, I firmly believe that the husband, wife and kids become their own family--parents, siblings, cousins, aunts, etc. of the husband and wife are now "extended family", and maybe that's what your Mom might have to realize.  But with your brother's wife having BPD, I don't know, maybe at least keep the lines of communication open with him to make sure he's got a good grip on things with his wife's BPD.  And given BPD's insane fears of rejection and abandonment (as I understand it), your SIL's texts to your Mother aren't entirely out of line: she sees her husband abandoning her for his Mother.

Hope that made sense.   

[Youcantfoolme]

No your comment wasn't harsh. Trust me I don't think I would've posted if I didn't expect people to not agree with what I wrote. I welcome others opinions whether they agree with mine or not. Just to clear some things up here, firstly, yes my brother is aware of her BPD. He is the one who started researching it because clearly, something was going on in their lives that seemed out of the norm. As far as I know, she hasn't been formally diagnosed. I have had 9 months NC with them because she has painted me black. I do know however that my brother started seeing a therapist, "to learn how to deal with her.", two months after their wedding. I'm sure the therapist was able to give him some insight on what's going on with her. As far as I know, she was seeing a therapist but it's very spotty. I don't know if it's because of BPD or other issues.

Also I want to clear up that my mom has only asked him this one time for alone, one on one time. The other times I spoke of were long ago when he was with another girl. I feel he should sort of understand because his wife has said and done some horrible things to both my mother and I and it's very uncomfortable for them to be around each other. Also she wasn't asking my brother to sacrifice plans with her or sacrifice his actual birthday. She said she wanted do go on a week night either the week before or after his birthday. Also, my mom lives alone and has many bills to pay. She doesn't want to have to pay for everyone else. She just wanted to treat him to dinner. My mom wasn't doing it to hurt or undermine his wife. She just thought the two of them could hang out and catch up for an hour or so.

When you say, "abandonment" I think of a long term thing. Such as a father who abandoned his children and hasn't seen them in years. I guess because I'm not BPD. I would never think my husband, going out to do something without me, for an hour or two, as abandonment. I thinks that's where I don't understand this thing. At the same time I feel like BPD can't be an excuse for all irrational behavior. Do they not have to own up to any of their actions because they're suffering from this? I understand that she can't help feeling certain ways at times but isn't it my brothers job to show her that there is no threat, rather than reinforcing her behavior and enabling it? My mom has bent in several different ways to try to give this girl a chance but his wife  is not willing to let go of things in any way.

I'd have to explain the entire story for this to make any sense to you because the situation with his wife is very complicated. There's the factor that she started making demands and insulting us after only knowing us a few short months. She had all these imaginable expectations of us that we weren't even aware of and when we didn't meet them, she decided we were the bad guys. She wanted an instant relationship with her as if we'd known her for ten years, after only meeting her four times! Normal, healthy relationships with people take time and that's something she just didn't get. She thought just because her and my brother were engaged, we should falling all over her and asking what we can do for her when we hardly even knew her. When that didn't happen she got mad and retaliated. As for me, she thinks I'm the devil and she won't allow my brother to even speak with me or associate with me in any way.

Is this how bad their abandonment fear is, that everytime someone goes away for a short period of time, they are abandoning them?

One more thing I'd like to address is the immediate/extended family issue here. I too have my own little family that consists of my husband and my son. Even though I don't share a household with my mom anymore, that doesn't mean she's extended family. Our family is very close. My mom has a lot of brothers and sisters all whom have their own little families, and they make time for one another while still respecting the fact that they all have their own lives. She never bothers my brother or asks him to do anything for her. She understands he has his own life and own little family too. I just don't see how asking for some time to bond without any other distractions, is a bad thing to ask of someone every once in a blue moon. Plenty of people have lives outside of their relationships and it's 100% normal.

[funfunctional]

I really don't see the harm in the two of you going out to eat alone.    It's not like there is a group that she is being excluded from.

Your son must be in a very tough position being married to this person.    He is trying to keep the peace and keep her happy.    He probably never will.

She (wife) is trying to maintain CONTROL over him.    She wants the communication to stay closed and that way she maintains the exclusive relationship with him.     Just my opinion.

The lunch/dinner out with him sounds like a no win.   Her texting is ridiculous.    Clearly she feels his response wasn't dramatic enough and needs to jump in.

So your choice now is to either concede and go out with the both of them OR just drop the subject and if he brings it up say maybe another time we can meet for coffee to just have some one on one time.     Not use an "event" like a birthday as a reason to go out cause SHE can't handle that.

Very insecure wife.   Oh boy!   

Good luck.

[martillo]

Ultimately, the decision on how your brother chooses to maintain his family relationships will be his.  And if he is letting his wife dictate who, how, when, why he sees his "extended" family then his decision right now is to follow wife's lead. 

If my understanding of BPD is correct, pwBPD feel out of control themselves (emotionally), so try to control all around them (just one of the many amazing and fun behaviors of pwBPD!)and no, they don't get a free pass for bad behavior - that is where your boundaries and your mom's boundaries need to be in place.  Brother's wife can text you and your mom all kinds of things - good, bad, indifferent - you have the choice of responding, not responding or blocking her # if texts get really out of line. 

My uBPDh has been on and off with my family.  I can let that color my relationship with my family or I can acknowledge that his "relationship" with my family is just that - "his relationship."  I get to have my own relationship with my family - however I see fit to maintain it.

You and your mom can be there for your brother, respect that his wife is his wife, ignore the craziness and in time hopefully, your brother will be able to return to a good relationship with both you and your mom.    

[P.F.Change]

I just don't understand what prompted her to text this to my mom out of the clear blue sky. If if were days ago I'd understand. I also don't get why she's so unbelievably offended.

Are you expecting your SIL to behave like someone who has a personality disorder, or someone who doesn't?  The logical rules that someone without a PD tends to follow are not necessarily the same as those that someone with a PD relies on. It doesn't make sense to expect her to think the same way you do. For people with BPD, feelings equal facts. Do you think you can accept that she feels what she feels, without judging whether she is right or wrong to feel that way? That does not mean you have to agree with her or accept her behavior.

When you say, "abandonment" I think of a long term thing. Such as a father who abandoned his children and hasn't seen them in years. ... .

Is this how bad their abandonment fear is, that everytime someone goes away for a short period of time, they are abandoning them?

Yes.

People with BPD often have trouble with object constancy. In other words, if someone isn't right in front of them or interacting with them, they may on some level not know whether that person still exists--or, perhaps more accurately, whether the person is still available to reflect back a sense of their own existence. BPD BEHAVIORS: Lack of object constancy

I don't think it's just a vague fear that they will be walked out on at some point in the future, though that is usually there, too. It is a fear that any minute, for any reason, the person they rely on for their very existence may just disappear. BPD is characterized by frantic efforts to prevent that from happening--to reassure themselves that the object is still there and is still theirs, and that it is safe to go on living. This may be in response to actual abandonment (e.g., husband moved out), or perceived abandonment (e.g., husband made eye contact with the waitress).

It sounds like your SIL relies heavily on your brother in order to feel emotionally secure, and may feel threatened by his relationships with other people. That makes sense if she has BPD--she would need to feel he will always be there with her.

Does any of that help, Youcantfoolme?

[Youcantfoolme]

PF Change, thank you for making sense of that for me. Yes it absolutely did help, but here's the catch... .

People with BPD often have trouble with object constancy. In other words, if someone isn't right in front of them or interacting with them, they may on some level not know whether that person still exists--or, perhaps more accurately, whether the person is still available to reflect back a sense of their own existence. BPD BEHAVIORS: Lack of object constancy

I totally understand object permanence as I just dealt with my son learning it. He needed to understand that when mommy or daddy walked out of the room it didn't mean they didn't exist. He actually did real well & thankfully it was a short lived stage!

This is where I have the problem though... .

She seems to be able to leave him when she wants to do something on her own. In fact just a month or so ago, she went on vacation, with a friend of hers, to the Dominican Republic. When she returned home she stayed for a few days and then went away for yet another, "girls only" trip for the weekend. How come her abandonment issues don't happen when she decides to leave for extended periods of time? How is it she's able to cope with being away from him then? It just doesn't make sense to me. Is this something else that's common with BPD's?

[P.F.Change]

She seems to be able to leave him when she wants to do something on her own. In fact just a month or so ago, she went on vacation, with a friend of hers, to the Dominican Republic. When she returned home she stayed for a few days and then went away for yet another, "girls only" trip for the weekend. How come her abandonment issues don't happen when she decides to leave for extended periods of time? 

It sounds like she really isn't "on her own" in those cases--she still has people around her who will reflect back an identity for her. Not only that, the identity is fun and requires no responsibility. If your brother goes somewhere and leaves her at home, that is probably not nearly so fantastic and glamorous--she is left alone with boring, real-life problems, and that can be uncomfortable.

You made a connection to your son learning about object constancy. Many people find it helpful to think of their relatives who have BPD as toddlers or perhaps adolescents. Emotionally, their development might be about the same. People with BPD often struggle with empathy (it requires a great deal of emotional energy), and many times do not understand how to self-soothe. Similarly, a young child only knows his own needs and feelings--what he wants right then--and is not able to synthesize ideas about someone else having needs. Your son probably isn't able to comprehend when you are tired or stressed or need to spend time alone or go on a date, or balance your needs with his own; he just knows he wants you there to soothe him and meet his demands. That's normal for a toddler. Also, regarding the abandonment fears, your son at this age might not be nearly so anxious to wander away from you as he would if he saw you wandering away from him, especially if his attention was focused on something interesting, like chasing a puppy.

BPD BEHAVIORS: Emotional immaturity

Does any of this information help?

[Youcantfoolme]

PF, your knowledge on this subject is unbelievably amazing and thank you for sharing it with me!  your answers are really thorough and concise. It's giving me a much better understanding.

Sadly I think you're right about her mental capacity being that of a toddler. I would have to label my brother as codependent. It's the perfect match up for someone with BPD being that his fear of rejection feeds her and that's why she's able to walk all over him! She has complete control over him. He lives in her house, that she owns, his cell phone is now under her plan, she owns his car too! She is in a sense, his sugar mama! She also tells him who he can and can't speak with.

[P.F.Change]

She has complete control over him. He lives in her house, that she owns, his cell phone is now under her plan, she owns his car too! She is in a sense, his sugar mama! She also tells him who he can and can't speak with.

How does all of this impact you? It sounds like you would like to be close to your brother, but he is choosing to be more distant in order to avoid displeasing his wife. Do you think there is any area where you need to work on acceptance? By that I mean, are there any false hopes that are holding you back? Do you need to let go of some of the things you can't control?

Not sure if you've seen this, but it helped me a lot: Radical Acceptance for family members

[Youcantfoolme]

Yes I'd like to be closer to my brother and this has had a very strong impact on my life, in many different ways. Not only the loss of mine and his relationship, but also it's hurtful that he missed almost the entire first year of my sons life. Last he saw him, he was only 6 months! He's now a year and a half. So much has changed in that time. I've only phsically seen my brother once in 8 months and when he came to my home that one day, my husband asked if he wanted to see our son. My brother grabbed him and my son started screaming, crying and reaching back out,  for my husband. He didn't even know who my brother was. It was heartbreaking and I'm sure it was upsetting to my brother as well. This kid has no idea who he is. I miss joking around with my brother. We used to laugh together all the time. Even before we went NC though, he wasn't the same person. He acted very different in front of this girl. He almost seemed uncomfortable to be himself.

The worst part for me though, is seeing how torn up my mother is about this. I have kind of accepted the fact that there's nothing I can really do to change it. His wife needs to get over things and my brother needs to stand up for himself. I can't make that happen. I've made several attempts and never got a response. I have to let go. My mother is a widow though and basically my brother and I are her life now, because of it. It's like someone cut the tip off the triangle. Our fathers death brought our family even closer then before and now we are all estranged. It's sad, and it hurts. Especially when you lose someone to death, you realize how fragile life is and how important it is to appreciate the people you love, while they're there. Apparently my brother doesn't share this sentiment.

My mom on the other hand, still wants to fight. That's her nature. If something g is broken, she will go to no end, to try to fix it. She has hope still. I just don't. She just can't accept the fact that his wife, will not allow him to speak with me.

I guess my loss of hope, is what brought me here. I have a bigger need to understand. Understand why his wife is the way she is, understand what motivates her, understand why she gets so easily offended and why she only sees things in black or white. I feel like it's giving me the closure I need. Giving me a reason to not feel guilt. I guess I'm trying to justify the thought of losing him.