Where do you draw the line?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I pulled this off of another site. Its the authors opinion but I lean this way.

I feel for you Split black and I'm sorry  . Here's an article that should reframe your thoughts and help you cope with this painful experience.

Why do some behave so badly after a breakup?

The intensity of the pain may be what compels some spurned lovers to do just about anything to make the hurt go away -- and that includes a host of unhealthy things ranging from demonizing their ex-partner, to excessive anger, to bashing whole groups of people.  The intensity of the pain may be what compels some spurned lovers to stalk their ex-partners.  Fisher believes, for example, that activation of addictive centers in response to breakups also fuels stalking behavior, explaining “why the beloved is so difficult to give up.”

Attachment styles that emerge early in life also influence how people handle breakups later on

Biology is nowhere near the whole story. Attachment styles that emerge early in life also influence how people handle breakups later on—and how they react to them.

Those with a secure attachment style—whose caregivers, by being generally responsive, instilled a sense of trust that they would always be around when needed—are most likely to approach breakups with psychological integrity. Typically, they clue their partners in about any changes in their feelings while taking care not to be hurtful.

On the receiving end of a breakup, “the secure person acknowledges that the loss hurts, but is sensible about it,” says Phillip Shaver, a University of California, Davis psychologist who has long studied attachment behavior. “They’re going to have an undeniable period of broken dreams, but they express that to a reasonable degree and then heal and move on.”

PERSPECTIVES: The Biology of Breaking Up - why it hurts [romantic partners]

[Mutt]

I pulled this off of another site. Its the authors opinion but I lean this way.

I feel for you Split black and I'm sorry  . Here's an article that should reframe your thoughts and help you cope with this painful experience.

Why do some behave so badly after a breakup?

The intensity of the pain may be what compels some spurned lovers to do just about anything to make the hurt go away -- and that includes a host of unhealthy things ranging from demonizing their ex-partner, to excessive anger, to bashing whole groups of people.  The intensity of the pain may be what compels some spurned lovers to stalk their ex-partners.  Fisher believes, for example, that activation of addictive centers in response to breakups also fuels stalking behavior, explaining “why the beloved is so difficult to give up.”

Attachment styles that emerge early in life also influence how people handle breakups later on

Biology is nowhere near the whole story. Attachment styles that emerge early in life also influence how people handle breakups later on—and how they react to them.

Those with a secure attachment style—whose caregivers, by being generally responsive, instilled a sense of trust that they would always be around when needed—are most likely to approach breakups with psychological integrity. Typically, they clue their partners in about any changes in their feelings while taking care not to be hurtful.

On the receiving end of a breakup, “the secure person acknowledges that the loss hurts, but is sensible about it,” says Phillip Shaver, a University of California, Davis psychologist who has long studied attachment behavior. “They’re going to have an undeniable period of broken dreams, but they express that to a reasonable degree and then heal and move on.”

PERSPECTIVES: The Biology of Breaking Up - why it hurts [romantic partners]

[AG]

Moreover, a similar question could be posed about us "nons" on the Board. From what I've seen, about 50 percent get recovery, see their own contribution to the toxic relationship, take self responsibility, detach, grow, learn about their FOO issues and become the people that they wanted to be.  25% stay in denial about the Disorder and their own false selves and forever wait and hope for their ex to return to them and once again mirror their "good".  And about 25% take no responsibility, stay a victim, and stay in a place of anger, victimology, and helplessness until they dry up in bitterness.

Do those last two 25% groups know?   Should we give them a free pass?  How much of the behavior of us "nons" is because we're weak, difficult, stubborn, pompous,  know-it-alls?  And how much is because we got caught in the Disorder.

I believe that I asked a reasonable question that I don't see asked enough or even at all. I don't believe it should be discounted as "irrelevant" just because their is another more important "real" question that overrides this question which involves turning the finger back at myself. Instead two individual questions should be asked.

I am looking for others opinions. Whether people here are "weak" or "pompous" as it relates to your 25% illustration of Nons and whether we should give them a pass, it's none of my business really. The only business I make of it is attempting to help anyone on this site I can out of caring. My ultimate business is my wife and me. I took wedding vows to this woman and if I have questions on a disorder that she has that's ok. I'm about to file for divorce from this woman.    

You definitely did ask a reasonable question and a good one at that. Hes right a similar question could be asked about us nons but the fact is that it was not asked so it's safe to say that it is not relevant on this post. I agree though with what he is trying to express we can't get stuck on the external however let's get real here. Most of us are left with no closure due to the "disorder" so that leaves us with questions. We are all engaged in a journey and we will explore both external and internal along the way. We loved these people and probably some of us still do down at our core so we need to explore exactly what we are feeling and address it not run from it and act like it doesn't exist. Thanks for asking this question as it has my mind working.


I think we are all beings of light and all have potential but I do also feel that there are malevolent people as well as forces out there. I have explored forums that are full of people with BPD just to see what the heck is going on or get some type of clarity as to what happened. It seems that some of them do know fully what they are doing and just do not give a crap and then there are some who really genuinely do not want to hurt people but do. I have seen some who are very self aware and grab every single book they can on BPD and also try to engage fully in therapy. I have read some that choose to be alone until they get it together so that they don't hurt anyone. I have also read on some who take a Marilyn Monroe approach to things aka "If you can't love me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best". You can break down that quote however you like but Im sure you will get the same perception that I do of that statement. So I think it is safe to say that some of them probably are just rotten. If you are walking around damaging people and causing destruction and you know it and just take a I don't care approach then there you have it. The disorder isn't theyre fault but it is they're responsibility to take care of it and they're actions belong to them only. They are responsible for what they do to people. I don't think it is easy for them. I think recovery is probably grueling and very difficult. In summary I do beleive that some of them simply do not give a ___ and have embraced so much negative energy that they are simply malevolent not hopeless but simply have chosen the dark side and said hey this is who I am. How do we know which type we had? To be honest dude I have no ___ing idea  

[Blimblam]

Ag,

That seems to be the most accurate way to put it. I also think depending on the company they keep will change their approach to the disorder. Mine was a good one the. She started hanging out with yolo idgaf type people and it she turned to the dark side at least for a while

[AG]

AJ Mahari (member here) was once BPD, had 2 parents with BPD and got into a relationship with a BPD\npd after her recovery. if you can go back to her posts she announce it boldly that borderlines should be held accountable to their behaviors and that they have enough awareness of what they are doing and they know the difference between bad and good.

I think whether or not we can hold the mentally ill responsible for what they do depends upon the illness. In the case of Borderline Personality Disorder, as a recovered borderline who had a relationship with a borderline-narcissist, and 2 borderline parents (I am a non now) I say, YES, absolutely those with BPD are responsible for their behaviour and need to be held responsible for their behaviour.

In my opinion and experience to take the stance of not holding the borderline responsible for his or her behaviour enables them to continue to be the same.

Are there degrees of awareness in those with BPD? Absolutely. Does a borderline have to "know" better to do better, yes. The catch-22 to this is that if we sanction or excuse their behaviour as being beyond their control or responsibility we only support their learned helplessness. Learned helplessness that they must heal and change if they are ever to recover.

I believe it is a mistake not to hold those with BPD responsible for their words, actions, and/or abuse. Any borderline over the age of 18 (or 21 depending where you live) is an adult, even if they are an child in an adult's body. The goal for borderlines and non borderlines is to call the spade of BPD out for the spade that it is.

Everything a borderline does, just like everything an non borderline does, stems from choices made. If choices have become habitual unconscious choices - that feel to the borderline like "reactions" - they are choices nonetheless.

It is when a non borderline leaves that ominous area of maybe the borderline couldn't help it attitude that collusion and enmeshment result. Collusion and enmeshment are part of what keeps non borderlines so stuck in the drama of those with BPD in their lives.


A.J. Mahari

post number 57 for her

This is such a hidden gem that you dug up Anthony. What makes it so relevant is that it is from the mouth of a former borderline. Proves what I already knew. Hold theyre asses accountable whether your staying or not. They are not puppets on a string they control theyre own bodies. So do we.

[Tausk]

AJ Mahari (member here) was once BPD, had 2 parents with BPD and got into a relationship with a BPD\npd after her recovery. if you can go back to her posts she announce it boldly that borderlines should be held accountable to their behaviors and that they have enough awareness of what they are doing and they know the difference between bad and good.

I think whether or not we can hold the mentally ill responsible for what they do depends upon the illness. In the case of Borderline Personality Disorder, as a recovered borderline who had a relationship with a borderline-narcissist, and 2 borderline parents (I am a non now) I say, YES, absolutely those with BPD are responsible for their behaviour and need to be held responsible for their behaviour.

In my opinion and experience to take the stance of not holding the borderline responsible for his or her behaviour enables them to continue to be the same.

Are there degrees of awareness in those with BPD? Absolutely. Does a borderline have to "know" better to do better, yes. The catch-22 to this is that if we sanction or excuse their behaviour as being beyond their control or responsibility we only support their learned helplessness. Learned helplessness that they must heal and change if they are ever to recover.

I believe it is a mistake not to hold those with BPD responsible for their words, actions, and/or abuse. Any borderline over the age of 18 (or 21 depending where you live) is an adult, even if they are an child in an adult's body. The goal for borderlines and non borderlines is to call the spade of BPD out for the spade that it is.

Everything a borderline does, just like everything an non borderline does, stems from choices made. If choices have become habitual unconscious choices - that feel to the borderline like "reactions" - they are choices nonetheless.

It is when a non borderline leaves that ominous area of maybe the borderline couldn't help it attitude that collusion and enmeshment result. Collusion and enmeshment are part of what keeps non borderlines so stuck in the drama of those with BPD in their lives.


A.J. Mahari

post number 57 for her

This is such a hidden gem that you dug up Anthony. What makes it so relevant is that it is from the mouth of a former borderline. Proves what I already knew. Hold theyre asses accountable whether your staying or not. They are not puppets on a string they control theyre own bodies. So do we.

Yes, this is good.  I like much of what AJ has done.  In fact, one of her videos provided me with the strength to leave my ex.  And the question is how does this information help me on the Leaving Board?   It helps me first of all to hold my ex responsible and to never let the Disorder back into my life.   And, it helps to stop any recycle attempt.  

And, it doesn't help to try and figure out which of my ex's actions I should hold her specifically responsible for because she knew versus the Disorder.  I hold her responsible for all of her past transgressions.  And I know that the Disorder will prevent her from taking any responsibility.  She's already run away past the point of self realization.  In fact, she can't even remember the vast majority of the things she did when we were together.

Thus this a partial way to end the hope/uncertainty (limerence) that the mirror of the false self might be rebuilt.

But the larger question still remains, Why did I allow and engage in actions that were fundamentally against my standards of behavior for so long.  Why did I lose myself?  I don't think my ex is an evil sociopath.  She feels much more deeply than me.  But her actions were sociopathic, destructive  and I accepted them.  So the question is why did I invite the Disorder into my life and why am I still not able to leave the attachment to the Disorder?

And the fact that someone knows an action is destructive but still engages in that action. well... .how many of us know that we need to let go of our exes and we can't.  My friends and family stopped being willing to listen to me whine years ago.  They just as a group stopped responding when I started to whine.  

So, I know that I need to let go and move on.   I know that my ex never thinks of me and has even forgotten who I am.  And I know that when I ruminate, and live in pathetic self pity, or have a childish angry tantrum, I'm living in Victim mode.  

And there's very few existences less attractive than living in long-term victim mode.   How much more pitiful could my life be in that I'm still in love or that I'm still a victim to someone what doesn't even remember me?   I know it's pathetic, but I at times still can't seem to control my actions.  

So how do I move forward and recover?   By holding myself responsible for my actions before I hold my ex responsible for hers.  By taking responsibility for my closure and NOT waiting for it to be provided to my by my ex.   By admitting and having compassion and forgiving myself for my transgressions before I ask them of my ex.  Simply, by first looking on my side of the street.  

And I recover by accepting that my ex might have known, but I didn't set boundaries, so whether she could have changed is irrelevant in my case because I didn't demand that she take responsibility.  And as AJ said, unless I hold myself responsible, I just live in learned helplessness.  Everything that I point at my ex, I can point at myself, and that is how I take responsibility and recover.  

That is my message to people on this board, because some of us will not recover.  Some of us will wait for the mirror to return, and some of us will stay victims and wither away in their own self hatred.  

I could easily end up in one of those two categories.  So I have to work mindfully at my recovery in all aspects of my thoughts and actions.

And gratefully today, there are times when I can forgive my ex, not justify enable or sanction... .just forgive her, because that's how I move out of Victim mode.  That's how I let go of the shame.  That's how I become detached from the Disorder.  That is how I recover.

[antjs]

Thanks Tausk for these wise words. These are the thoughts of people here who are close to healing. this is not 101 healing so that new members will not get down if they can't feel the same way now. Tausk's words is a live prove of hope. we can all do it people. we should find hope to move on. you will all find hope inside your own self.

[fromheeltoheal]

And, it doesn't help to try and figure out which of my ex's actions I should hold her specifically responsible for because she knew versus the Disorder.  I hold her responsible for all of her past transgressions.  And I know that the Disorder will prevent her from taking any responsibility.  She's already run away past the point of self realization.  In fact, she can't even remember the vast majority of the things she did when we were together.

It's interesting, once we somewhat understand the priorities and thought processes of a borderline, to try and see the world through their eyes.  A borderline is not responsible for their disorder, although they are responsible for its care and their behavior, but how do they see it?  Borderlines feel everything intensely, no volume knob, so there's lots of motivation for developing tools to make the bad feelings not hurt so much.  Projection, reframing and distorting reality to make things more tolerable, if someone is really successful at that, they have absolutely no idea that they were responsible for something, or even remember what really happened accurately.  Such is mental illness.  The more detached I get the more interesting and bizarre it gets to look at things through a BPD lens.

But the larger question still remains, Why did I allow and engage in actions that were fundamentally against my standards of behavior for so long.  Why did I lose myself?  I don't think my ex is an evil sociopath.  She feels much more deeply than me.  But her actions were sociopathic, destructive  and I accepted them.  So the question is why did I invite the Disorder into my life and why am I still not able to leave the attachment to the Disorder?

In my case it was because we will violate our values to meet our needs.  I went into it thinking she was 'normal', and fell under the spell of someone for which attachment, in that unhealthy fusing-of-psyches-to-create-one-person way, is absolutely mandatory, and someone who has been at it for decades and knows what works and what doesn't.  So here's someone with a mandatory requirement and expertly refined tools to meet that requirement; I was a sitting duck.  But it didn't really take long for me to start listening to my gut, which was screaming, and leave her, less than a year. 

And the most valuable thing that has surfaced?  My tendency to confuse the longing for love, the chase for it, with real love, deep seated in me, from not feeling loved the way I needed to be when young no doubt, but the knowledge of that, just the knowledge, borne out of borderline hell, has been profound.  It's said a borderline just shows us how we've felt about ourselves our whole lives, along with a healthy dose of pain to drive it home, and how cool is that? 

So what if we cut ourselves some slack and choose to believe that we were the target of someone with a serious mental illness, a con artist in their own way, there's no way we could have seen it coming, and not only that, the silver lining was the profound growth made available by the extreme, painful borderline mirror.  What if everything happens for a reason and it serves us, and sometimes gifts come very well disguised?  I'm sticking with that, as life just keeps getting better and better, for us all... .

[Mutt]

I have not seen evidence that pwBPD are on autopilot mode and can not control themselves enough not to cheat, lie, steal and abuse with no choice. It seems like they more accurately have a high tendency to act out or even being more fair a super high tendency to do this.

I am looking for others opinions. Whether people here are "weak" or "pompous" as it relates to your 25% illustration of Nons and whether we should give them a pass, it's none of my business really. The only business I make of it is attempting to help anyone on this site I can out of caring. My ultimate business is my wife and me. I took wedding vows to this woman and if I have questions on a disorder that she has that's ok. I'm about to file for divorce from this woman.    

Thanks for this thread AwakenedOne and discussion as it made me really think about the difference between accountability and blame towards a loved one with BPD. It makes me ask the question where is the line between accountability and blame? Where do you draw it?

Blame is the act of censuring, holding responsible, making negative statements about an individual or group that their action or actions are socially or morally irresponsible, the opposite of praise. When someone is morally responsible for doing something wrong their action is blameworthy.

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blame

In ethics and governance, accountability is answerability, blameworthiness, liability, and the expectation of account-giving.

In governance, accountability has expanded beyond the basic definition of "being called to account for one's actions".[3][4] It is frequently described as an account-giving relationship between individuals, e.g. "A is accountable to B when A is obliged to inform B about A’s (past or future) actions and decisions, to justify them, and to suffer punishment in the case of eventual misconduct".

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountability

[antjs]

And the most valuable thing that has surfaced?  My tendency to confuse the longing for love, the chase for it, with real love, deep seated in me, from not feeling loved the way I needed to be when young no doubt, but the knowledge of that, just the knowledge, borne out of borderline hell, has been profound.  It's said a borderline just shows us how we've felt about ourselves our whole lives, along with a healthy dose of pain to drive it home, and how cool is that? 

Thank you

[Infared]

And the most valuable thing that has surfaced?  My tendency to confuse the longing for love, the chase for it, with real love, deep seated in me, from not feeling loved the way I needed to be when young no doubt, but the knowledge of that, just the knowledge, borne out of borderline hell, has been profound.  It's said a borderline just shows us how we've felt about ourselves our whole lives, along with a healthy dose of pain to drive it home, and how cool is that?  

Thank you

Yeah... .there is a lot of truth in that quote. We have to do something about the situation to make it better. On our own. Here, here.

Big-Boy pants required. LOL!

[Tausk]

So what if we cut ourselves some slack and choose to believe that we were the target of someone with a serious mental illness, a con artist in their own way, there's no way we could have seen it coming, and not only that, the silver lining was the profound growth made available by the extreme, painful borderline mirror.  What if everything happens for a reason and it serves us, and sometimes gifts come very well disguised?  I'm sticking with that, as life just keeps getting better and better, for us all... .

I agree!   I believe in cutting myself a lot of slack.  I have to forgive my invitation for the Disorder to enter into my life.  Because at the time, I did not understand myself or the Disorder.  

And it wasn't that my ex was a knowing con artist.  She just acts on survival instincts.  But she genuinely wanted to love me and for me to love her.  She was honest in her desire for love and in her idealization of my good.  But, the mirror was just was not sustainable, and not how I need love to be enacted into my life.

But I need to have great compassion and forgiveness to myself.  Especially because the intentions on both sides were idealized.  

However, I also need to take responsibility for my recovery.  I'm not responsible for the fact that the Disorder entered my life.  I didn't know or understand what was happening.   But I am responsible for my recovery.  My actions and behaviors for now on are my own.  

But it's hard.  OCD/PTSD/ADHD... .I obsess and ruminate.  I'd rather find the familiar place of pain and resentment rather than move forward.  If I had spent half the time I did ruminating about my ex and instead working on my FOO issues and my defective schema's, I'd be free and happy.  But I choose(?) to often sit with my familiar pain.

And my reactions to triggers are difficult to control.  Sadly, the fact is that living life was an overwhelming and terrifying trigger for my exwBPD.  But in my recovery, I can respond differently to my triggers.

It's a process.  Compassion and forgiveness for ourselves is so important.  Mindfulness in my thoughts and actions.  Focus on recovery.  And taking responsibility like an adult.  Not the child when I entered in the interaction, but instead the adult who has come out on the otherside.

[Infared]

WOW... .great observation and guidance Tausk! Spot on.

"But I need to have great compassion and forgiveness to myself.  Especially because the intentions on both sides were idealized. 

However, I also need to take responsibility for my recovery.  I'm not responsible for the fact that the Disorder entered my life.  I didn't know or understand what was happening.   But I am responsible for my recovery.  My actions and behaviors for now on are my own. 

But it's hard.  OCD/PTSD/ADHD... .I obsess and ruminate.  I'd rather find the familiar place of pain and resentment rather than move forward.  If I had spent half the time I did ruminating about my ex and instead working on my FOO issues and my defective schema's, I'd be free and happy.  But I choose(?) to often sit with my familiar pain.

And my reactions to triggers are difficult to control.  Sadly, the fact is that living life was an overwhelming and terrifying trigger for my exwBPD.  But in my recovery, I can respond differently to my triggers.

It's a process.  Compassion and forgiveness for ourselves is so important.  Mindfulness in my thoughts and actions.  Focus on recovery.  And taking responsibility like an adult.  Not the child when I entered in the interaction, but instead the adult who has come out on the otherside."

[AwakenedOne]

Where do you draw it?

Mutt,

I am not looking for any apologies or to cast blame or for her to accept responsibility. I just want to know what real flavor of ice cream she is or was. I will never taste her fkd up ice cream again though so it doesn't ultimately matter. I would prefer to know though.I want to know if she had a choice to poison me with the ice cream or was she just HELPLESS? She apologized 100 times to me in the past years. The sorry's and her word in general means nothing. Who physically harms their husband and then leaves with no conscience and doesn't care if their husband gets better or not enough to check on them ever again? Sick & evil or just really fkn sick or really fkn evil. Knowing that I loved a dear family member of mine she would constantly tell me they hated me and brings up some moment where my dead family member was disappointed at me and she even sucker punched me in anger while visiting the mausoleum? When she abandoned me she did a horrible mocking gesture toward me that is haunting.

According to AJ Mahari pwBPD are not helpless.

[Mutt]

I have 3 kids with my ex and as a father to those kids and my SD she worries me. I've seen the effects on splitting and what it does to a family it's devastating. My ex is Queen / Witch and the Witch can be cruel and mean on the kids.

It's a challenge in my life but it's manageable by taking control back. Disengaging from the triggers and arguments. I do minimal contact and have firm boundaries. It buffs out my space to take care of my kids with validating them, providing an emotional safe zone and nurturing them. I had to get the toxins out of my system to be present for my kids. A part of that was not letting ex rent space in my head and I had to let go of the awful pain that she set on me, and the unresolved FOO issues that surfaced after the break up. I had to let her go and move away from her orbit to move in a positive direction for my kids. They needed a healthy dad not a bitter & resentful dad so that I could accomplish those goals and grow with them and find happiness in my life. Find another woman and possibly re-marry again.

I like AJ Mahari because she gives you access to the disordered thinking of a borderline personality disorder. She also talks about radically accepting your loved one. I chose to radically accept my wife for the way that she is and for the trauma that she caused. That came after working through my anger. How does that sound like for you as a goal Awakened One? Radical acceptance?

[Emelie Emelie]

I could forgive everything that happened "in the heat of the moment".  The jealousy, raging, devaluing.  I understand that he simply could not handle those emotions.  What I have a harder time with is the lies, the manipulation, the behaviors that were calculated and not intense emotional reactions.  My exBF knows he has BPD.  He understands the behaviors.  He refuses to seek help for the disorder (despite his promises to do so) and I think he uses it as an excuse.  When he first asked me to research it and I expressed some of my fears he got angry and said "So it's all about you."  He plays the victim.  I had such a $hitty childhood this is just the way I am. 

[AwakenedOne]

Mutt, today I started thinking about her and the divorce and made a decision instead of dwelling on it and wasting time I pulled my guitar out and learned a complex new song and felt good. I try to put a lot of positive things into my life. Do you think even though she abandoned me, being surprised with divorce papers now will trigger her abandonment BPD issues? Hard to understand that.

[Mutt]

Mutt, today I started thinking about her and the divorce and made a decision instead of dwelling on it and wasting time I pulled my guitar out and learned a complex new song and felt good. I try to put a lot of positive things into my life. Do you think even though she abandoned me, being surprised with divorce papers now will trigger her abandonment BPD issues? Hard to understand that.

Playing the guitar is cool! I had a hard time wrapping my head around the fear of abandonment when my ex is the one that filed the divorce papers. I didn't know she was doing that, I was in family court filing papers around the same time for the kids.

I believe everyone she had an intimate relationship is an attachment and she doesn't completely detach. She sent a lot of email bombs during court ( family not divorce, I'm not divorced yet) and was shifting blame for the failure of the marriage etc. She threw up a lot of FOG on my parenting and how I wouldn't get the kids etc.

I was limping and knee deep in pain at this time and it was very difficult with her aggressive behavior, dissociations, accusations and threats. It was an emotional barrage. She had rages at the kid exchanges, dissociations, blackmail and I have a voice recorder app and use it. I document and I communicate to keep electronic proof.  It was hard because I wasn't detached, the boyfriend was around sometimes and the pain I was feeling day to day.

Don't take lightly what your ex could do in this divorce be prepared for anything, and have all your ducks lined up. Mine projected her actions saying that I'm the one that's emotionally, physically and financially abusive when it's her. Your ex will likely project her emotional immaturity, physical abuse and destructive tantrums on you. She's losing you, it's triggering her abandonment insecurities.

Watch for patterns. My ex had patterns in court triangulation being one and would triangulate me with my lawyer. She also has a pattern of all or nothing in courts. She will adjourn and stall until it goes to the end. I notice she doesn't like authority or judges and she falls short right before court. Everything in between is FOG but I have my documents and emails just in case.


Just know that it may be difficult, it's manageable but difficult when you're detaching. Let your L deal with her that's why your paying him, go radio silent and don't respond to email bombs etc Anything you send will be read to her friends and may be read out in court. Use BIFF to communicate.

I didn't get married to get divorced AwakenedOne and I took my wedding vows just as serious as anyone else. It's important to me and it was so hard letting that go. You held your end of the contract. She didn't, you own that. I'll make wiser choices and find a woman that takes vows seriously. I married an emotionally immature woman with a lot of baggage that cannot sustain an inter-personal relationship. It is what it is and I radically accept that. I didn't know it at the time. But it's cutting yourself some slack. You're too good of a man for her AwakenedOne. Work on working out her toxins and letting go.  

Look at the longview and rebuild. My ex did a number on me financially and walked away with nearly everything. I'll bounce back at the end of all this but I don't want to be engaged in her malarkey. After family court was settled I laid down serious boundaries and I get some peace and quiet. She'll likely take me back to court at some point but I'm ready. For now I have short and longterm plans and it's about starting a new chapter without her or toxic relationships. I like not having her around anymore because I'm not wound up tending to her needs and I'm not walking on eggshells, that peace is enough for me for now.

[refusetosuccumb]

You are all so wise!  I learn something new off of every thread I read here.

My ex continues to play on my guilt of leaving someone I know to be ill.  I'm still working through that.  I've established stricter rules for communicating with him about the children.  He had the kids on Thursday (they had a blast).  When I picked them off, he said goodbye and as we were leaving he yells to me "it would be nice if you made some time in your busy schedule for me!"  I just kept walking but every time he hints at getting back together, I dash his hopes and trigger his abandonment all over again.  But HE does it to himself!  Yet I'm the one left feeling bad? 

I draw the line, today, at feeding into my ex's fantasies of being happily ever after once he "proves" he's a changed man.  Even though I feel bad telling him "no, stop asking it will never happen get better for yourself and the kids" my line is we will never be together and he needs to move on.

Boundaries are our friend.  Guilt is fleeting.  Time makes things better.