Don't even hint of criticism

[joshbjoshb]

We have a neighbor who has much more money than us.

And another friend, that knows that neighbor.

Today my wife was very excited to report how both of them (she with her friend) were discussing something that the neighbor did. She was trying to make it sounds how dumb that other neighbor spent her money.

I said "I don't like how  you guys are always talking about her. Maybe you are jealous with what she has, but I don't want our children to grow up and always feel deprived because they don't have what the neighbors have."

Big mistake.

No, huge mistake. Really.

That followed with:

* You are a horrible provider, I want you to be like her husband and give me everything she has

* You judge me all day

* You are the only human I see and this is how you make me feel

* I think that you want me to kill myself

* I want to run away

So I apologized. Tried validating (I am sure it feel awful... .), didn't help much because

* Even from I look from the bloody beginning you were always so rude to me.

So I finish off the conversation politely and getting back to work... .Thank g-d not at home but a different location. Now I can share on the forum what I feel and continue on with my day

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[itgirl]

I can so relate to this.  I don't even dare to point a finger in her direction.  I will pay for it by her letting me know what an horrible partner I am. 

And the double standards are amazing.  A total different set of rules for her. 

This is where I use the radical acceptance.  There is no getting out of this for me here.  It is a no no and I can never point a finger at her. 

I feel your frustration.

[ziniztar]

Two things here.

1) criticism ignites fears of abandonment

Really the best way to convey any negative messages is using SET: sympathy, empathy, truth. "I get your frustrations on the neighbour. When I saw their new truck I also felt envious of  their wealth. I do think we should not learn our children that it is better to have more money than we do." Something like that. Understanding and applying this technique will change your life.

2) empathy is not naturally present in pwBPD, they are not capable of getting into other people's shoes by themselves

Take an examole of something she cares about. Then say "how would you feel if our neighbours would teach their children ... ."

It won't always woek, but it can sometimes help. 

[formflier]

We have a neighbor who has much more money than us.

And another friend, that knows that neighbor.

Today my wife was very excited to report how both of them (she with her friend) were discussing something that the neighbor did. She was trying to make it sounds how dumb that other neighbor spent her money.

I said "I don't like how  you guys are always talking about her. Maybe you are jealous with what she has, but I don't want our children to grow up and always feel deprived because they don't have what the neighbors have."

Big mistake.

No, huge mistake. Really.

That followed with:

* You are a horrible provider, I want you to be like her husband and give me everything she has

* You judge me all day

* You are the only human I see and this is how you make me feel

* I think that you want me to kill myself

* I want to run away

So I apologized. Tried validating (I am sure it feel awful... .), didn't help much because

* Even from I look from the bloody beginning you were always so rude to me.

So I finish off the conversation politely and getting back to work... .Thank g-d not at home but a different location. Now I can share on the forum what I feel and continue on with my day

Has it ever gotten better by delaying the "pointing out time" to your wife.

Similar things have happened to me... .  And I haven't figured it all out yet... .maybe never will.

But... .I think there is something about the immediacy of the criticism... .

Maybe if SET was replaced with SEC... .where C is the criticism. 

Maybe if you just validated the conversation and mentioned that you would like to think about this for a while.

That give opportunity for you to come back a day or so later and say "remember that conversation I was thinking about"... .what do you think we are teaching our kids... .?

Etc etc.

At least that is my general plan next time I am faced with something similar.

All of the above could just be my whacky untested theory... .so please treat it accordingly. 

On the one hand I am interested to try it... .on the other... trying it means being exposed to "the wrath"... .   

[123Phoebe]

Oh yes, joshbjoshb, I know this situation well-- dealing with criticism.

If I keep it in line with how I feel about something, rather than what he's doing wrong, it seems to keep things calm.  Just had a sampling of it today; is something in the air?

I have a very old dog that my SO absolutely adores.  He's amazing to him and really really cares about him. Last week he had too many goodies, too many doggie-bags etc...  I'm trying to keep him on low sodium as the adverse effects are obvious.  I made him special food (that he gobbles up and it crazy about) to go along with his regular food.  Told SO of this and he was in full agreement.  He wanted to come by after work today to give him one of his favorite (high sodium!) treats.  I said "Sure, come by to say hi, but he shouldn't have high sodium treat".

When he got here and was greeted by a very excited dog, he felt bad that he couldn't give him this favorite treat.  The look on SO's face was too much when he accusingly said, "I can't give him this treat... ".  It kinda teed me off.  I handed him a boiled piece of chicken to give him instead.  He had the salty treat in his pocket and made a little fuss that my dog could smell it in his pocket.  Why did he bring it in in the first place?  I didn't say this of course   I said, "Okay, give him a little teeny weeny corner of it.  While I appreciate how much joy it brings you to make him happy, it's better for him not to have the whole thing. He's feeling good, getting around awesomely and I'd like to keep it that way".  He understood and got over his own little snit about it.

I could blame this on BPD and think all kinds of things, which my mind did want to do, it wanted to spin! Instead, I validated what was good-- the fact that he makes special trips over because he adores my dog and wants to bring happiness to his life

What he can't or doesn't understand when his own feelings are in the forefront, is that the short-term "fix" doesn't help the long-term gain... . Luckily, he's catching on

What I didn't do what act on my spinning mind, ":)on't you listen?  :)on't you care that salt is bad for him? Weren't we JUST talking about this?  WTH?  Jeez."

I'm catching on, too

[maxsterling]

I learned very early on (before I knew anything about BPD) that making any "you" statement is like pushing the red button.  And it's weird.  She can say "You should do this, why don't you... ." all day long to me, yet the minute I say "Perhaps you... ." it's like a bomb goes off. 

I'm slowly learning there are different ways of saying the same thing that don't sound like criticism and don't sound like I am pointing the finger at her, and things go MUCH better.  My rules (that I have a hard time following ) are:

1)  Think if this is something even worth commenting over.  If it seems like a petty thing, I've decided I am much better off just letting go.  Don't tempt fate on something that really is not important. 

2)  Recognize that pwBPD are almost always on a heightened emotional state compared to most people.  So things that most people wouldn't even think twice about (or even notice in the first place), the pwBPD notices, and feels strongly over.  This means, I have to assume that something is ALWAYS irritating her.

3) If I decide that something is worth bringing up, and since I know something is already likely irritating her (that likely has nothing to do with the subject at hand), I try to validate her emotions first.  In other words, validate that life sucks.

4) After I validate, I gauge her reaction, and then re-evaluate if this is worth bringing up, at least at this moment.  If she seems receptive, then I proceed slowly.

5)  Recognize there are no guarantees, and validating and trying to avoid the "You" statements probably has only about a 50% success rate.  And "success" is measured using a low standard.  I consider not being cursed at a success.

[123Phoebe]

I consider not being cursed at a success.

  That one made me laugh

[steev]

Hey Maxsterling, I know how you feel, I do the exact same things. I read the books, & have 8 years of therapy under my belt and I, like you, have relegated myself to "walking on eggshells"!

This irony makes me crazy!

[joshbjoshb]

... .then maybe I didn't really accept.

I didn't really accept that I have a wife that will always see things in black, always complain, always judge others, always be jealous of them.

I didn't really accept that this is the role model that my children will see, and heaven forbid some of them will actually adapt.

So I am trying to change her... .still trying... .mistake, Mr. Josh. Mistake. Stop it now. You can't change anyone, and if you choose to stay accept what you can't change.

Maybe... .dunno.

[formflier]

... .then maybe I didn't really accept.

I didn't really accept that I have a wife that will always see things in black, always complain, always judge others, always be jealous of them.

I didn't really accept that this is the role model that my children will see, and heaven forbid some of them will actually adapt.

So I am trying to change her... .still trying... .mistake, Mr. Josh. Mistake. Stop it now. You can't change anyone, and if you choose to stay accept what you can't change.

Maybe... .dunno.

Josh,

I think you have the right idea about not changing people... .but maybe taking it a bit too far.

Nothing wrong with trying to change things  in other people.  The way I see it... .what happens when they don't change... .then you have to deal with your reaction. 

Then we have to accept that pwBPD probably are less apt to change... .but it's still possible.

So... .yes it would be great if you "radically accept" that "nothing will ever change".  Boy... .that sounds harsh... .right?  Keep hanging on to this thinking.

If you radically accept no change... .and are ok with that.  What will your reaction be when there is positive change?

I think you will have an awesome outlook on life.

As opposed to:

If you radically accept that only small change will happen... .and then no change happens.  You have to deal with disappointment.

How do the above suggestions compare to the thought processes that you are currently using?

[ziniztar]

I invite everyone to join my 'Let's practice Radical Acceptance together' thread... and make this journey a nice one, with some laughs at wel

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=229420.0

[waverider]

Couple of things.

You cant change anyone else, but neither do you have to listen to them slagging anyone else off, nor allow your kids to be exposed to it. Boundary time >disengage completely.

Later after the moment has passed, as others have said, if it is important enough to you bring it up. Not in the moment. Dont finger point directly, ask her if she thought she might have been a bit harsh? Ask her if she would like your kids to start speaking about others like that?

Yes that will still likely provoke her, but as said you can't change that, but the point you are making is more likely to sink in, even if she wont admit it, which is more to the point. You will also feel better in having aired your reality. You have not tried to convince her of your reality, rather to take a second look at her own.

[formflier]

  Dont finger point directly, ask her if she thought she might have been a bit harsh? Ask her if she would like your kids to start speaking about others like that?

One new phrase I'm trying to incorporate is "Help me understand... .xyz"

That seems to keep my tone down... .it makes sure she understands that I don't understand... .there is a chance I may fully agree with her... .I just don't get it ... .yet.

[waverider]

One new phrase I'm trying to incorporate is "Help me understand... .xyz"

That seems to keep my tone down... .it makes sure she understands that I don't understand... .there is a chance I may fully agree with her... .I just don't get it ... .yet.

This is a good one, especially as it helps you to not feel less aggrieved and defensive.

Be careful about not following up with 'Ah now I understand'... as they dont believe you do, and think you are being presumptuous, or not listening properly... OR later when you obviously dont approve/agree with something they will throw it back at you "see you dont understand, how can I trust you, you just say that"... Saying you understand can be taken as blanket approval for whatever they like.

[empath]

... .then maybe I didn't really accept.

I didn't really accept that I have a wife that will always see things in black, always complain, always judge others, always be jealous of them.

What if you change the 'always' in your statement to something like her default mode will be to see things in black, complain, judge, etc.? I have found that changing my thinking helps me to be able to engage a bit more.

[ziniztar]

... .then maybe I didn't really accept.

I didn't really accept that I have a wife that will always see things in black, always complain, always judge others, always be jealous of them.

What if you change the 'always' in your statement to something like her default mode will be to see things in black, complain, judge, etc.? I have found that changing my thinking helps me to be able to engage a bit more.

"Always" sounds a little black and white, don't you think... .?

[waverider]

Good point re using the word "always' it can lock is into assuming nothing can change. There is never an always with BPD, may never be stable, but rarely always the same forever.