Is there an advantage to a legal separation before divorce?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

hi--

I was wondering if a legal separation would safeguard assets etc before moving toward divorce. i'm pretty sure i'm headed toward "the end" of a long (nearly38 year) marriage in CA, which I know is a community property state. My uBPDh is a bit of a "spend everything but don't finish any projects" kinda guy, and our house is totally unfinished on the inside in that every room needs work, 2 rooms have been out of commission for one year and the other for nine years.

I've been out of the house for almost 6 months living with one of our daughters. I know my H is gonna flip, but then I guess I've been through that a few million tim!es before, right? Only now there's gonna be an audience of family and friends. Yay!

[Elpis]

hi--

I was wondering if a legal separation would safeguard assets etc before moving toward divorce. i'm pretty sure i'm headed toward "the end" of a long (nearly38 year) marriage in CA, which I know is a community property state. My uBPDh is a bit of a "spend everything but don't finish any projects" kinda guy, and our house is totally unfinished on the inside in that every room needs work, 2 rooms have been out of commission for one year and the other for nine years.

I've been out of the house for almost 6 months living with one of our daughters. I know my H is gonna flip, but then I guess I've been through that a few million tim!es before, right? Only now there's gonna be an audience of family and friends. Yay!

[ForeverDad]

I've been here since 2006 and I can't remember anyone here doing Legal Separation though surely there must have been a small handful who did.  Only you can decide what is best in your case but I recall my lawyer asking me when we discussed it, "Why would you want to pay twice?"  Of course I had a minor child and the custody issue would have been scrutinized twice, once in LS and again in D.  I didn't have the money to do that so, knowing (1) my ex wasn't wanting to reconcile and (2) reconciling would put me right back in the fire, I went with divorce.  It was rough but at least it was final and let any pretense of a relationship end.  Do you have any minor children which would complicate the case?

Some states allow you to start with LS and then switch later to D, but you'd need to have consultations with a few family law attorneys to her their legal advice and recommended strategies.

Frankly, I think LS is not practical in most cases and might even leave you at some disadvantage, not being together but still married.  Do you have religious reservations?  Or is it just to avoid his overreaction?  I think you'd get the same overreaction either way, after all, you've already moved out, so he has to know the marriage is in trouble.

[Nope]

It's important to talk to a lawyer so that you know what the state laws say. I'm not in CA so I don't know ow it is there but where I am you have to have an LS for one full year before a divorce can be finalized. I think rules vary widely.

[whirlpoollife]

I have a relative in CA who has been separated for over five years after a long marriage. They stayed "married" so she could be on his medical insurance. She recently got her own medical insurance. Her h right away wants his share of everything , mostly his share of the house. Let's hurry and get divorced. So after so many years she has to start the economic end to things. (Actually, she does not plan to do anything and let him start, but you get my point)

I would consult with a L and ask what value is used for the house, current  market value  or value when separated or value upon the day the divorce complaint will be received by either one. Same for any stocks, investments, bank accounts or inheritances. If you are married and receive an inheritance, it is not marital property but any increase in value of it is regardless if it is kept separate .

What is, what is not marital property and what date is used to record balances, values to determine that.

If you think the house will go up in value to divide later, I would say , still divorce , take your share now, and start your own investment.

[livednlearned]

Can you tell us a little about what your H is like? A lot of BPD sufferers seem to deal with the legal stuff in predictable ways, but I do think the degree of narcissism makes a notable difference in how bombastic things can get with the court stuff. Does your H present more hermit/waif type of traits?

If you are thinking that a legal separation might help your H transition to the hard cold truth, I don't think that's a good tactic. My advice would be to plan as much as humanly possible and be as strategic as you can, and have things well thought out in advance before you even whisper divorce. That will protect you much more than a legal separation will. Divorce is the end of a business contract, and trying to protect your H's feelings by softening the end of the contract can really screw you financially, especially if you tip your hand that you're leaving, and he uses that information to his advantage. There are a lot of lawyers out there who will add gas to flame if your H wants to play dirty and keep everything for himself.

An excellent starting point to prepare yourself is Bill Eddy's book (co-written with Randi Kreger), called Splitting: Divorcing a NPD/BPD Spouse. Highly recommended. Eddy also has a site with some free resources: www.highconflictinstitute.com. He's also based in CA -- you may be able to get a referral from him. Eddy was a family therapist for a long time before becoming an attorney, and he recognized that high-conflict divorces often involved a BPD sufferer. His book is written for people like you and me who don't know much about the legal system, maybe a little about BPD, and have a lot at stake.

I also highly recommend that you see a therapist during the process. We already have boundary issues, and divorce is going to make any difficulties you have with assertiveness even more profound. Lawyers are, well. They're lawyers. They think we work for them, when it's the other way around. Everyone has an agenda, so the more clear you are about goals, the better. Friends here will go out of their way to help you think about a strategy, and each one of us probably understands your inner dynamic clear as day.

You can consult with several lawyers, maybe about $50 or $100 for half an hour, possibly more if you're somewhere with a big metro. Go in with a list of questions you have, and either have someone there who will take notes for you, or -- if you want to keep things private, take a notepad and write everything down. You'll forget all of it -- it can be very emotional to sit down with a lawyer. That will allow you to get a feel for different lawyer styles and answer some basic questions, then compare them. Then come here and our peanut gallery will chime in  

Take time to do this. 38 years is a long time, and you will (in all likelihood) spend a lot of money on the divorce. You want to be able to walk away with some financial security and will need to think carefully about how to make sure that happens. BPD sufferers obstruct and delay and obstruct and delay like you cannot imagine, and that costs money in legal fees. And the legal system is perfectly happy to go along with that tactic. It helps to know as much about the legal process for divorce as possible so you can use that information to help you deal with a disordered spouse who will probably negatively engage every step of the way.



It's going to be ok. Things do work out. They can even turn out great.  

LnL

[Elpis]

Thanks for all your responses.

I'm such a nervous Nelly about all of this. Fortunately I do see a therapist and she's been the one to help me pull up my Big Girl panties and stop just reacting to my H.

He's more of the Queen type, I think. I don't think he will want to spend a lot of money on legal fees, honestly. Apparently he's willing to admit to our daughter that he knows he messed up, but I've never heard word 1 about him knowing he's hurt me. In fact after I left the house and he got into my private journaling he was only upset about how I WROTE DOWN how much he hurt me. How could I possibly say those things?   Actually, now that I think about some of his behaviors I wonder if there isn't a waif in there: "help me save me" while at the same time the Queen is saying "off with her head!"

Well, I do have a friend with a lawyer who has dealt with this sort of thing here in CA, and it sounds like I should at least go talk to them and learn more about the system. And fortunately my T is well versed on the whole BPD issue and my own issues of complex ptsd from my childhood and marriage--well done me!

My T seems to be pointing me toward the least amount of "engaging" with my H, because I have a tendency to still want to protect his feelings and be encouraging and essentially be his mommy.   (No wonder that intimacy thing dried up those past 4 years... .) I'm still not great at protecting myself.

He's been after me about going to marriage counseling, and I made the mistake once in a weak moment of saying something positive. But honestly I can't imagine ever being able to trust him again. He's only gone to counseling and anger management because I left, he didn't show any interest before.

I have had religious reservations, even though if it were one of my daughters I would say "you need to get yourself out of that situation honey!" Plus i'm the silly romantic sort who loves movies where things work out and love triumphs. And I can get caught up in his charm--he can be very charming. But yes indeed I fear his reaction.

Honestly, and I hate to admit this, it's pretty weird thinking of living without him since we've been together for 2/3 of my life!

Okay--I will talk to lawyers and find out the facts and breathe none of this to family, I will probably bring someone to take notes, that's a great idea. I know this will take some time for me to sit with... .I've only begun to say the words out loud... .

Elpis

[livednlearned]

Gathering information about the process is not the same as making the decision to divorce, although that is obviously an option on the table. Sometimes, people don't gather information because they think it's making the decision. Also, my experience is that when we even start to consider divorce, something shifts deep inside -- it's a big deal to even think about leaving this person, and that big deal can sometimes be felt by others, especially someone you've known for 38 years. For all you know, your ex might end up consulting a divorce attorney and putting you on the defensive. That's not the worse place to be, but it's far better to be prepared if something like that ever happens. My ex used to threaten divorce all the time until one day I thought, Hey. He's trying to tell me something. I should listen. I'm glad I did -- I was one step ahead of him the entire way and it worked out well for me. And by working out well, I mean that I didn't lose too badly. Because there is no winning in a high-conflict divorce. Being prepared will help you lose less  

One of the best things I did was to consult with a lawyer, two in fact. One was terrible. The other one was excellent and I took her information to heart and started doing an inventory, making a plan, putting my ducks in a row. I didn't know from one day to the next what I was going to do, if anything. But when it was crystal clear that it was time to go, I had a strategy in place.

Divorce happens in different ways for each of us. For many of us, it takes a false allegation of abuse (happens to the guys here a lot), or a fear of abuse (my situation), or infidelity, or getting dumped. It's really hard to make the decision when there is no clear sign.

You're just gathering information. Like anything you do in life that might require considerable investment, you're doing the legwork to see what's involved, and you'll weigh your options when you have enough information, both in your mind and in your heart.

[Elpis]

Thank you so much for that, livednlearned!

Good point--gathering the info and being prepared isn't the same thing as taking the action.

My h has said a few times to our grown kids about "she's really done with me isn't she" and that sort of thing, so he knows it's a possibility. That's why I felt bad about my moment of weakness where I actually gave him a moment of hope.

It was so clear to me when I needed to leave the house in February, crystal clear. And now i'm in that day-to-day wondering what i'm going to do. My T has known me for 13 years now and I know she feels that he's very abusive and damaging to me, but I've had so many issues with the "amnesia" part of it all that in my head I downplay the bad. And the "familiar" gets me, and the "family expectations" get me, and the "what will people think?" gets me. So odd, because I always thought "what will people think?" was such a weak-arse thing and something I would never say!

But then I had never envisioned my marriage being a differently colored version of my parents' either.

Hopefully the decision for what to do with the information will be as crystal clear as my decision to leave the house.

Thanks again, that really really helped.

[Mutt]

Just a word of advice. LivedbLearned pointed out a detail that I think is of importance. My ex is Queen / Witch. I had an old thread and she helped me identify where my exes Narcissistic traits tied into. Queens tend to be narcissistic and I agree with LivednLearned that you can gauge the level of intensity your in for. Know that there will be patterns with a pwBPD.

I was charged with DV in 2010 and had no clue about BPD then. 2013-14 custody and access. The same patterns were in '10 and this recent court battle. I know her patterns and what to anticipate for the next court battles. She played them both out the same way with the same intensity. H will have patterns as well. Pay attention to those patterns if and when you choose to move forward. For example my ex started with triangulation each session by trying to get my L to side with her. All or nothing thinking. I was frustrated with trying to work through mediators.

Having said that I know next time to bypass all of that and go straight to court and she'll go as far as she can and collapse if I keep at it - all or nothing. Nothing in between with her. Both times when it was set to go to trial she would stop and I would win. She has a problem with authority and doesn't like judges. Her bark is worse than her bite - I didn't clue in until the child custody issues. Every situation is different but that was mine. That's my advice to you. Patterns.

[ForeverDad]

Some here have remarked that their pwBPD didn't stick to one MO.  Sometimes, waif, sometimes, witch, sometimes queen, etc.  So not confuse who he is by trying to lock him into on type.

A lot depends on the circumstances and situation.  I recall before separation & divorce my ex would often lay in be a lot, moaning and groaning, slamming doors, kicking then in, etc.  She seemed like a waif type.  Then as The End drew close she treated me worse (disrespectful, argumentative, disparaging, ranting and raging more often than not) and after separation she was hellbent on sabotaging my parenting, no more lying in bed moaning and groaning.  And it's been 8 years.

[Elpis]

That certainly fits, ForeverDad-- there have been periods of various different MOs. But it's all been in the form of a descent. And I guess the different "person-hoods" of him have kept me off balance as well, his sad face could always stir my nurturer's heart, even if he'd just been awful to me. And he could be stuck in a very "poor me" thing for months and months, but I've become much more of the emotional punching bag for him over the last decade. I think while we were busiest raising kids I knew he didn't necessarily have my back, but we were both busy and so the issues didn't seem as big. And coming from my Poo FOO I didn't recognize what was normal or abnormal, and he could be very persuasive so i'd believe it when he said "it was normal for a man to lose his temper." Stuff like that. My blinders were fully on, I guess.

Lately he's being the Lovely Man who is working so hard on himself and improving his life! And then making sure to spread the news among the family... .so that again, it can be all my fault when I don't buy into the Picture of Progress.

Who knows who he'll be if I finally use the ":)" word for the first time in history.

[Mutt]

I agree as to not lock them in. Maybe it's because I've been split black for so long I forget 3 dominant traits in mine control / narcissism / punish. 2010 split black 8 months. This last split Nov 2011 - present. The day I told her I wanted a divorce   Since Nov '11 I've mostly seen Queen / Witch. Waif comes out in black splits when she needs $ bf isn't providing enough or money's tight. I haven't seen Waif come out outside of that. In the r/s there was Waif but it was a less dominant characteristic compared to the other two. My ex is like clockwork but everyones exes and circumstances are different.

[Turkish]

Elpis,

It seems like you've come to a decision point. Not breathing a word of it to your grown kids is a good idea. You don't need any additional FOG. Though grown, they will always be your babies. They grew up with this, but they can't understand like you do. Consulting a L as others have said is just that. Knowing your rights and options. Getting a 3rd party opinion is a good thing. No decisions, just information. You will get options, as it seems like you've been in limbo for months. Typecasting your H as a BPD type can be useful (and the mixtures can be confusing) on an emotional level, but this is the real deal. This is your life from now forward.

Wishing you strength, we've got your back.

Turkish

[livednlearned]

What Mutt said is really important -- the patterns are important to pay attention to, probably more so than the prominent traits (although I still maintain that predominantly narcissistic types stand out). You also recognize something very important, which is how you respond to those patterns. If you are susceptible to his "poor me" stuff, then it's probably a good idea to work with your T to help you with that, especially if you go through mediation and might potentially sit in the same room together. My T actually talked to my L and told her to be tough with me because I would in all likelihood cave to his demands.

The unfortunate bottom line about high-conflict divorces is that they tend to be high-conflict, no matter what kind of traits are more prominent in your spouse. High-conflict can present in a lot of different ways -- changing lawyers a lot (which causes delays), not complying with requests for documentation, agreeing to something and then not doing it, making false allegations, not complying with court orders after both parties sign, preventing you access to joint documents, obstructing the process in any number of ways.

One thing that often becomes very important is documentation and paperwork. Passports, titles, deeds, accounts and passwords. Things that are meaningful to you like photo albums -- these can tend to go missing after you mention divorce. Court does not enforce things -- you know how your H pushes your boundaries? He will do that in court too. It took my breath away how irreverent my ex was in court. He pretty much gave the court both middle fingers, and the court took it in stride. Enforcing the court order is pretty much considered your job. If you can't do it, then you come back to court.

There is something called a motion for contempt, which is when you file an order to tell the court that your ex is not complying with the court order. In family court, they tend to get treated like parking tickets and can stack up. Once there are enough to show a pattern, the judge may order a strict ruling. Meanwhile, you have spent $300 an hour to get your H to comply with something he probably agreed to.

That's why, even if your ex might care about money, and not want a high-conflict divorce, it might still end up that way. Because you could get everything you think is fair in the divorce, and then he does nothing to comply. You end up in court spending money to get whatever it is the judge ordered.

Having a strategy and learning from friends here will help you get through this, if divorce is what you decide to do.  

LnL

[Mutt]

I recalled something that I just wanted to add about my ex. The other times I did see Waif come out was with our L's. As I said she would triangulate - she was putting herself in the position of victim and me as persecutor. I'm abusive to her and neglectful to the children, she is struggling financially etc. I'm not abusive and she chose to leave her husband for an attachment - an emotionally immature man. She put herself in her position and would project. I clearly saw what she was doing but the L's didn't and I didn't play into it. I didn't clue in until this last court battle. I had no idea about BPD in 2010.

It's difficult to be centered with the anxiety and stress during these difficult experiences but after this last court hangover and winding down. I was able to see distinct MO and overarching patterns with both individual cases.

It's something that I will take forward with me knowing what I know now. It gives me an advantage I believe and I know not to get as worked up as I did the last two times and how she's going to play her hand. She's like a child having a tantrum but if I didn't know what motivates this - I used be fearful of the threats that she says but they are mostly tantrums. It's not to say that I don't protect myself because she does dissociate and I record each exchange and I track everything - just in case. Dad has to be there for the kids and not incarcerated for distortions. That's my exe's MO and each pwBPD is different. I hope that helps - any little bit of information for you will help. You have a lot of people here that are in your corner  

[ForeverDad]

Sometimes after a member has separated, filed for divorce or divorced we read a post that some of the children said, "I'm glad you did that, you didn't deserve that treatment." or "I wish you would have done it sooner, I would have liked for us to have lived in a more calm and normal home."  Or something along those lines.  So don't be surprised if you hear that, even if only half-stated.

Since you've already separated and are currently living with one of your children, you should have an idea of which children will remember the reality and and have objective perspectives.  Validation does help.

[Elpis]

Wow. I feel overwhelmed with support!

lnl, my T told me that mediation would be the wrong way to go, i'm not strong enough yet to stand up against the charm he can bring out when he wants to... .my romantic little heart says "oh there's the guy I fell in love with!" So my T definitely has my back!

I am a "forever" kinda gal. I just hadn't bargained on all the game-playing and lack of emotional support of my h. And the emotional abuse (the word I can barely say.) And then getting a chronic illness due to stress and not being supported about that either... .bleh.

ForeverDad, the daughter I'm living with has said "I really can't see you and dad ever being together again." She's a very straightforward girl! My eldest, who was my stepdaughter but I adopted, has said "You should be happy, whatever that means." My youngest, our adopted son who's 26, was too affected by our ridiculous dysfunction so he doesn't really see things as they are, he still lives with his dad and is in his own lala land as his dad lets him do whatever he wants when he's not working. the house is disgusting when I go to visit the doggies. And my h can't be bothered to do any housework besides cook frozen foods and do his laundry. The only ones who aren't doing well enough with this separation are the daughter and sil who are in England and haven't seen my h's decline over the past decade very well. And he seems to have brought them fully into his world of I Am Working So Hard on Myself. 

That sil was trying to tell me when I was first out of the house and still scared of my h that I should be giving him my loving wifely encouragement for going to therapy.     (double puke!)

I think i'm just moving from being in denial for a couple of years to seeing how damaging it would be for me to go back. He does "ownership" sorts of things with me that tell me nothing has changed.

I was reading about getting copies of documents and financial things, so I may start making copies of things when I visit the doggies.

I hate this.