When a BPD apologises is it a manipulative tactic, or real?

[Moselle]

I listened and and empathised for 4 hours, as she covered her experience of my "sins"

As Covey says, seek first to understand then be understood.

I then sent her an email explaining a recent time when she had manipulated me. and how it had affected me. I didn't give in to the manipulation

And fall off my chair, bump my head... .she apologised. Wow, first one in 7 months of raging.

When a BPD apologises are they for real, or is she just positioning me for the next money request?

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[Entropy1]

Hope you didn't hurt yourself too badly falling off the chair, etc.!

I think it could be either one, or somewhere in between, which isn't a very helpful answer.  I've had apologies and seen remorse in my uBPDw a few times and was convinced they were heartfelt.  She hates her BPD traits and what they do to others when she sees that clearly.

I guess if I was uncertain, I'd choose to respond as if it were sincere and tell her it meant a lot to me.  Something like "I felt really loved by you when you apologized, thanks!".  Its an opportunity to model a two-way, meaningful relationship.  I'd also be pretty guarded about hoping for it again (I'm a fool that way) and would definitely avoid rewarding the behavior with what they might be trying to get through manipulation.

 

[Sugarlily]

Same here, I've had genuine apologies and attempts to change the problem. Also had sorrys that have been used to manipulate or end the issue quickly.

What do you think, did it sound sincere? The only was to know is to accept that apology gratefully and then see if there is any corresponding change in you interactions.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I dread the apologies... .95% the next word is "But... ."

It's just her way to reset the conversation and start again from the beginning

[Bak86]

I've only had one apology. She said about some issue: "that wasn't a smart thing to do". I don't think that was a very sincere apology, because immediately after that she said: "i'm this close to flipping out. if you don't be kind to me, i will freak out for real"

[Hope0807]

My ex apologized for years…literally.  All seemed heartfelt in those moments, so much so that he even agreed to come to my therapy sessions within me for just a couple times and completely took responsibility while he was there for all of his behaviors that were causing a drastic disturbance in our relationship.  What a charmer!  He presented himself as my teddy bear, superhero with his tail between his legs that was still holding me up on a pedestal, worshipping my world and just wanting to do right by me.

TWO MAJOR PROBLEMS---One, at that time "BPD" was not recognized as an issue.  Two, his words were NEVER backed up by actions/behaviors.  His behaviors were consistently inconsistent, irrational, impulsive, chaotic and often bizarre. 

In short, I think there is a "possibility" that the BPD apology is as real as it can be for them in the moment, but is completely rooted in self gratifying rewards.  Basically, they mean it as long as the end result is an extreme coddling of THEIR innermost insecurities.  I guess that is in essence a definition of manipulation, but it's more like manipulation on auto-pilot, without any thought or preparation.  It's just how they're wired.

[wishfulthinking]

Apologies?  What apologies?  LOL, mine has apologized for ONE thing.  Well, separate incidences, but one action in all.  Then, the next conversation that happens to bring up the incidence, he makes sure to not take blame or to blame me for my hurting him by telling him to leave was what caused it.  Yep... .what apologies?

[kc sunshine]

I think my expwDBPD was sincere, both to me, and in her reflections about her past relationships. She would say about her behavior "I wasn't my best self" or "I was my worst self" in the situation or in the past relationship. She was in intense treatment for a year though, so that probably helped. We could even sometimes laugh about it and joke that "it could be worse" and she'd tell me about some of the worst things she'd done. We'd also try to plan for episodes.

When things got really bad though, none of it worked. It didn't stop her from doing the behaviors.  :'( :'( :'(

[pavilion]

Great question and one I have been pondering today. My ex told me a while ago that he would apologise to my daughter for moving in against her wishes. The apology didnt come and he told me that it would be pointless because nothin has changed between them after he moved out. I tried to explain that an apology isn't something you do to get a person to change; it is because you feel it was wrong and you want to admit to your responsibility. Yesterday she received an apology letter! I am left wondering if it's genuine.

[thereishope]

TWO MAJOR PROBLEMS---One, at that time "BPD" was not recognized as an issue.  Two, his words were NEVER backed up by actions/behaviors.  His behaviors were consistently inconsistent, irrational, impulsive, chaotic and often bizarre. 

In short, I think there is a "possibility" that the BPD apology is as real as it can be for them in the moment, but is completely rooted in self gratifying rewards.  Basically, they mean it as long as the end result is an extreme coddling of THEIR innermost insecurities.  I guess that is in essence a definition of manipulation, but it's more like manipulation on auto-pilot, without any thought or preparation.  It's just how they're wired.

I totally agree with this assessment... I'm still living it... .although probably not much longer for sanity's sake... .

I too believe that it IS sincere and real... .as Hope stated... . "as real as they can actually be"... .The sad part in all of this is that the BPD doesn't see how they are... .thus, can't really understand what they are doing to us... .But truth be told, it IS still THEIR actions they are choosing to take, and THEY are still responsible for their own actions, unfortunately... .

My experience has been that my uBPDh is majorly in denial when I address this type of thing to any depth... .It's just "me and my emotional bs" that HE has to deal with (victim mentality).  On many occasions, his words to me have been, "I am just GOING TO BE STUCK WITH THIS FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE"... .regarding any of my behaviors in trying to deal with his BPD... .Most likely, that's NOT the case... . 

[Moselle]

thanks for the comments all.

Entropy1, the fall off my chair, bumped some sense into my head

Sugarlily, I think she has sensed that I'm really not willing to put up with this any more. I came to the point where I accepted about two weeks ago, that she'll never change. My desire to fix, caregive, co-depend on her has vanished with that. I personally think she has picked this up, and realises that this marriage is likely to end if she keeps up with this. It's likely to end anyway sadly, because I am really wondering if I can handle it. But I think she is genuine, as far as she realises that divorce is not a good idea for her  right now. I don't think she sees me as a human being with feelings, and I do feel like I've been a sperm donor and financial sponsor to uBPDw inc. She is trying to make an effort for the first time ever, so that's the positive I'm taking from it.

Please wish me luck? I'm back home for the weekend to be with the children. After 18 divorce threats the last 7 months, she has asked me on a date next wednesday, and she wants to spend sunday afternoon together as a family. She has already started the traditional dysregualtion on the phone this morning. She was firing all sorts of things from the hip. And said "And one more thing" three times, before I finally hung up, and I said sms me. It's going from severe rage and push for 7 months, to manipulate and pull for the last 3 weeks or so.

[LittleMissSisyphus]

My ex apologized for years…literally.  All seemed heartfelt in those moments, so much so that he even agreed to come to my therapy sessions within me for just a couple times and completely took responsibility while he was there for all of his behaviors that were causing a drastic disturbance in our relationship.  What a charmer!  He presented himself as my teddy bear, superhero with his tail between his legs that was still holding me up on a pedestal, worshipping my world and just wanting to do right by me.

TWO MAJOR PROBLEMS---One, at that time "BPD" was not recognized as an issue.  Two, his words were NEVER backed up by actions/behaviors.  His behaviors were consistently inconsistent, irrational, impulsive, chaotic and often bizarre. 

In short, I think there is a "possibility" that the BPD apology is as real as it can be for them in the moment, but is completely rooted in self gratifying rewards.  Basically, they mean it as long as the end result is an extreme coddling of THEIR innermost insecurities.  I guess that is in essence a definition of manipulation, but it's more like manipulation on auto-pilot, without any thought or preparation.  It's just how they're wired.

You said this so well... .

[Forestaken]

"I'm sorry I hit you but you made me do it"

[Moselle]

"I'm sorry I hit you but you made me do it"

I've had this one!

Last time was in January - I walked out. It'll be the last time ever!

[thereishope]

"I'm sorry I hit you but you made me do it"

Last night after I had followed him out to the truck in the middle of a heated conversation, he said, "You're not gonna learn until you have a broken jaw, are you?"

Thankfully just words up to this point, but you never know... .Why do I not see how stupid I am for even being here?

[Moselle]

"I'm sorry I hit you but you made me do it"

Last night after I had followed him out to the truck in the middle of a heated conversation, he said, "You're not gonna learn until you have a broken jaw, are you?"

Thankfully just words up to this point, but you never know... .Why do I not see how stupid I am for even being here?

That's hectic thereishope. Sorry to hear you're being threatened that way. You're not stupid (and you might be feeling bad for something he has said/done), I have been there too. Taken the abuses. She (my uBPDw) hit, kicked, scratched, threw things at me for years. Why did I put up with it - I don't really know. But I know where I am now - well on my way to recovery from co-dependence, and divorce or not, she will never do that to me again.

Ironically, now that I have taken a stand and said "no", she wants me more than ever. She is pestering me to sleep with her, hold hands, kiss. I've said - "no chance until I feel nurtured and respected". I've decided what I want and communicated it clearly and firmly.

Boundaries are becoming more natural for me too, given that I had none for 14 years of turbulent marriage.

There is hope :-)

[thereishope]

"I'm sorry I hit you but you made me do it"

Last night after I had followed him out to the truck in the middle of a heated conversation, he said, "You're not gonna learn until you have a broken jaw, are you?"

Thankfully just words up to this point, but you never know... .Why do I not see how stupid I am for even being here?

That's hectic thereishope. Sorry to hear you're being threatened that way. You're not stupid (and you might be feeling bad for something he has said/done), I have been there too. Taken the abuses. She (my uBPDw) hit, kicked, scratched, threw things at me for years. Why did I put up with it - I don't really know. But I know where I am now - well on my way to recovery from co-dependence, and divorce or not, she will never do that to me again.

Ironically, now that I have taken a stand and said "no", she wants me more than ever. She is pestering me to sleep with her, hold hands, kiss. I've said - "no chance until I feel nurtured and respected". I've decided what I want and communicated it clearly and firmly.

Boundaries are becoming more natural for me too, given that I had none for 14 years of turbulent marriage.

There is hope :-)

Thank you for the encouragement and understanding... .It is great that you are taking care of you, and also seeing a change in her... .I pray it is real and lasting for you & her!... .Stay strong!  Seems like you are doing the right things! 

[Zon]

"I'm sorry I hit you but you made me do it"

I've had this one!

I have too although this is not a club I want to be in.  When Freedom condenses all the words into that sentence, it is a little scary.

In my case, my wife got angry at something (minor) I did.  I apologized since it was my fault, although an accident.  She went away for a few minutes then came back to throw her cell phone at me.  I guess it was my fault for not apologizing correctly? 

[Forestaken]

Thanks for calling me "Freedom"! 

It's painful, I know, and it's a tough club to be in.  There are days I'm bitter and there are days I'm better.  Smartest and best thing I've ever done it leave.

BTW: If you find that you BPDSO is driving your friends and family away.  It's the start of isolation -a warning of future abuse.

[Zon]

Thanks for calling me "Freedom"! 

It's painful, I know, and it's a tough club to be in.  There are days I'm bitter and there are days I'm better.  Smartest and best thing I've ever done it leave.

BTW: If you find that you BPDSO is driving your friends and family away.  It's the start of isolation -a warning of future abuse.

You are welcome.  I saw the Freedom and went for it. 

We are going in the opposite direction to her driving them away.  I am bringing back family that she did not like, and she is fighting harder.  The ironic thing is that I was not close to those family members until recently and her actions brought them closer.  In the light, I have to thank her (not to her face ).

[gtrhr]

Pavillion had a great answer

I've gotten more than a few, what seemed at the time sincere, apologies from my xBPDgf.  But these apologies and "introspection" by her never really stood the test of time, and didn't remain consistent.

She knew that she could really fly off the handle at family members without really any provocation and she sincerely talked about changing for everyone's sake, not just me. Which I would concur with.  But... .the big issue is no real follow up actions about it occurred.  And if some original issue was ever brought up again just in general discussion, she could be totally unpredictable how she might respond.  She might go crazy.  She might deny her apology or say I "misunderstood."  That showed me she didn't really take accountability for her actions.

[Moselle]

Thanks for all your responses!

It seems like a continuum of apologies from very few (2 in 14 years from my uBPDw), to "more than a few" like gtrhr, to an ex "apologised for years" for hope0807.

It strikes me that regardless of where a pwBPD is on this apology continuum, they actually mean very little by it. It is what they do in the moment because it suits them to do it perhaps, or it is part of a manipulation, or it is genuinely how they feel right there and then. It's probably wise not to use it to gauge anything regarding the relationship, other than to start a blog post on BPDfam LOL.

In my case the apology has sparked off what I see as an obsession by her to get me back into her life. After 7 months of raging, the pendulum has switched. We have had a normal (read no shouting and swearing) conversation about perceptions around behaviour, money and intimacy. This is also a first! 7 months ago, any one of these topics would have set us into an argument. I could try work to work out if she's being serious I suppose, or if this is just a manipulation to either get me back into bed, or back into her life. I think it would be assertive to choose not to work out anything, so I will because I have recently accepted that she will never change.

[gtrhr]

Averyon, a good read is the book "How can I forgive you?"  What I like about it is that it distinguishes strong acts of contrition regret, and retribution from cheaper acts of merely saying "sorry" without a whole lot of other words or actions to back it up.  With cheap forgiveness the person that did us harm may not even understand what they did to us, or why they did it and may continue on doing it without regard to anyone else' feelings.  How does that really help?

A lot of people say "oh just forgive each other." And the book challenges you to forgive the person if they meet some requirements.  There are different levels of forgiveness. You can merely "let go" on your own terms without their participation.  You could give them a cheap forgiveness too but you might feel like a sellout and subject to further abuse.  True forgiveness is mutual - it should have a standard where they don't keep abusing you and also requires you to let go and not punish them for the rest of their lives if they're sincere about change.

I found my exBPD did make a few sincere efforts at apologies including writing several letters a long time ago.  Those helped and she tried but she could not really reach a point of stability where those things stuck.  If she really felt contrition about what she did if I tried to discuss something with her in a matter of fact way later on, even not passing judgment, she could go, well insane about it.  Yelling and defensive all over again.

Well at a certain point you can make a choice for yourself to give up the hurt, pain, anger or whatever it is your partners bad behavior made you feel.

[gtrhr]

In my case the apology has sparked off what I see as an obsession by her to get me back into her life. After 7 months of raging, the pendulum has switched. We have had a normal (read no shouting and swearing) conversation about perceptions around behaviour, money and intimacy. This is also a first! 7 months ago, any one of these topics would have set us into an argument. I could try work to work out if she's being serious I suppose, or if this is just a manipulation to either get me back into bed, or back into her life. I think it would be assertive to choose not to work out anything, so I will because I have recently accepted that she will never change.

It's great you're in the spot not wanting or needing to work anything out and accepting she won't change.  I know with my xBPD gf if she ever wanted me back once she got me and my heart and mind back in the relationship it was her cue to check out!  It really felt like a game.  Don't know why it's like this for them.

[Moselle]

I know with my xBPD gf if she ever wanted me back once she got me and my heart and mind back in the relationship it was her cue to check out!  It really felt like a game.  :)on't know why it's like this for them.

Thanks gt, I'm really new at this, and I'm fumbling through it, one issue at a time. This site has been a lifesaver, and your comment about forgiveness is very true. In fact I have offered her the cheap forgiveness, not realising that there is still deep mistrust, and anger that surfaces in me from time to time. Especially since this momentous radical acceptance I have had recently. I know it needs to come out, but I'm not sure how to get it out. I appreciate the book reference, the timing is perfect. Is Janis Abrahms the author? I've laid down my wants - nurturing, respect, autonomy and reciprocation. I'm sure that's a heck of a thing for a pwBPD, but I've decided to live a healthy life, and I want a healthy romantic relationship. I'm not sure where that leaves our future together.

It's been a whirlwind of change from me putting in boundaries, radical acceptance, and starting to live my life again.

[willtimeheal]

No e would apologize but it never felt sincere. It was like... .I am sorry get over it and let's move on.  I believe that if a person is truly sorry they look for ways to change their behavior if they know  It hurts someone. So all the apologies I got were not for me. They were for her... .to make herself feel better.

[nowwhatz]

While you mileage may vary my experience so far in 4 years of dealing with this is that apologies are genuine. Sometimes I get an "... .but you know I am ill in the head." following the apology.

[gtrhr]

Moselle, yes, Janis Abrahms Spring is the author.  You hit the nail on the head about cheap forgiveness and the deep mistrust that lingers.

[Gloria_Patch]

There are a few things that kind of make me wary of BPDs from all the other mental illnesses (except narcissists and sociopaths):

1) From what I've read countless times from other people's experiences is that they split you "black" more and more frequently as time goes on. That's strange. If this disease was so much a disease, then it shouldn't be controlled. My husband (2 more months before divorce is finalized) would lose control, but as time moved on, it seemed that he "allowed" himself to lose control... .

2) They are always sleeping with someone. Whether it's you or someone else. They are never celibate... .not even for a short time (like a week or two).

3) The capacity to manipulate.

From my experience (and maybe it is just him), it seems that they may be sick, but they have no morality.

Are you sure your girlfriend is a good person, in general? Does she really love you? Because the great conversation and hugs and movies are fun? But that's her mirroring normal people. These people thrive best in the underground and grit. From what I observe and my from my personal experience, the only thing that kept my borderline in shape was when I was wild and crazy too. They act better out of fear (fear of you cheating) than out of love.

So if you want to be in an open relationship and party like a rock star, stay with her. But, we all make a decision to be good or bad people. She made her decision. She's bad to the bones. She's pretending to be good, so you won't hurt her. But she won't think twice about hurting you. Trust me.

[willtimeheal]

Are you sure your girlfriend is a good person, in general? Does she really love you? Because the great conversation and hugs and movies are fun? But that's her mirroring normal people. These people thrive best in the underground and grit.

So if you want to be in an open relationship and party like a rock star, stay with her. But, we all make a decision to be good or bad people. She made her decision. She's bad to the bones. She's pretending to be good, so you won't hurt her. But she won't think twice about hurting you. Trust me.

Well said. I will remember this!