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Author Topic: Do pwBPD know when we are onto them?  (Read 7125 times)
biglearningcurve

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« on: August 18, 2014, 01:52:06 AM »

I have been reading the posts of "2010" and have gained so much helpful information.  I still have over 500 posts to read and cant wait.  (It appears you nee at least 10 posts to be able to access these posts).

I have recently sent my exbfunBPD an email saying that I can see what and who he is all about now and never what any contact with him again... .not even when he parts from his current object  .even if he had terminal cancer.

Do you think people with BPD know when the game is up and move onto easier targets? or do they just keep popping up now and then to test the waters?
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Aussie JJ
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 02:39:56 AM »

biglearningcurve,

Something that I will highlight, people with BPD are so soo much more sensitive than us.  Although we get hurt and frustrated by there behaviours, when they are 'acting out' they are hurting like we cant believe. 

Please be mindful of this pain that they are in.  It is healthy to be angry, frustrated and even furious ourselves to deal with what has transpired.  I don't think it is healthy to cause any other person pain, especially when we have control over ourselves.  Remember that pwBPD don't have that control, understanding that your ex has just got this e-mail now it will trigger them and all those bad behaviours to counter that pain will ensue. 

Be the person you want to be every day, hold yourself to a higher standard.  Was sending that e-mail being the person you want to be ?

If your ex with BPD was able to do this I am 100 % positive that they would.  It is not a pleasant existence and the knowledge we gain here shouldn't be used to ABUSE another person. 

I am sorry if this is a bit harsh, I feel it is the truth.  It isn't healthy to hurt others in our lives, no matter whom they are or what they have done to us. 


AJJ.
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 02:50:59 AM »

I've ecently been through a very brief recycle with an ex uBPD from 6 years ago. The initial relationship was only brief and he hassled me for ages. This time he appeared, from a distance, to have improved through therapy, so i agreed we could be friends. It soon became evident he hadn't changed at all, and was probably worse. This time around I did mention key words and phrases, like his idealisation devaluation, emotional intensity, and those 3 little words- Borderline Personality Disorder.

So far so good, he's left me in peace for nearly 3 weeks! Although this time I ignored his response where he told me I am a bully and never to contact him again. He clearly missed the part where i'd already told him I wouldn't be engaging in his games any longer and therefore wouldn't respond to him any further. If it helps him to think he ended it then so be it, as long as he stays away from me who cares?

I've seen recommendations for 2010's posts but i don't know where to search for them, so i can't comment on that.
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biglearningcurve

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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 03:56:47 AM »

Aussie JJ... I am surprised that you think I am abusing the pwBPD.  I am just trying to create a clear boundary so that he will not contact me again.

I did not say anything about what I have learnt here other than to say that I can see what and who he is now, which is that he is trying to stop his own pain by treating me like an emotional bandage.

I needed to ensure that I was not available to recycle with him at the expense of my own sanity and sobriety.

I do not wish him harm and went on to wish him happiness.  Just not with me.

I think that I have sugar coated it in the past and this left the door open.  Now it is firmly closed.
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 04:03:01 AM »

I would add that although I pointed out some of his behaviours that I am unable to tolerate it wasn't just with an intention to wound him (though I am under no illusion he will see it as anything other than that).  He's seemingly had all sorts of therapy for so many issues over the last 6 years but none of it has left him with any helpful communication skills.  Should he end up in therapy in the future he may or may not choose to bring up how I viewed his behaviour, and who knows, it may be a starting point in the future for him to get the right support.  :)oubtful though, although he is aware that he feels empty/lonely and cannot tolerate being alone he blames other physical factors.  I came to realise that his view of past therapy was that it was only useful for getting him out the house and taking away a tiny proportion of the agony of being alone, he told me that NONE of it was useful (once he considered himself back in my life, prior to that he apologised and told me he'd had all this helpful therapy).  And he's been offered more therapy for his sleep problems, he has decided it wont be helpful before his first appointment, so it probably won't be.  He clearly has issues engaging in therapy.

I do have some empathy for him, to feel so empty and be so wounded by tiny things I said or did (or rather he perceived I said/did), and having no concept of how odd that makes him to react with such rage must be horrendous. And I got nowhere trying to explain why I ended the relationship the first time around, trying to explain that his intensity was inappropriate and that real love doesn't happen within a few dates fell on deaf ears. His response was that it was real to him, and it's true that it was real to him, as were the perceived bad parts, but unless and until he mentions those issues to a therapist who knows pd's then he can have the wrong kind of therapy for years to come and never improve.  I am also aware that it is NOT something I can help him with as I am a trigger for him, so I have no desire to help him in to therapy, and be there for him either.  

But does he know I am 'onto him?' Possibly, if he has bothered to look up any BPD criteria, but why would he if he doesn't recognise there is an issue with him, other than feeling lonely?  Would he even recognise himself in the criteria?  His immediate response was to project it back to me. So it's more likely he has just painted me black.  If he's not onto himself, i.e. aware he has a disorder, then how can he consider that I am onto him?
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Aussie JJ
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 08:10:25 AM »

I have recently sent my exbfunBPD an email saying that I can see what and who he is all about now and never what any contact with him again... .not even when he parts from his current object  .even if he had terminal cancer.

I'm sorry, I'll elaborate and run through my basic understanding of object relations on the level that it relates to BPD.  Remember emotional maturity of a 3 year old.  Ill also delve a bit into the way they cope using a bit of a mix of OR and sandpit psychology.  

Object relations and BPD as a disorder dictates that your ex with BPD mirrors those whom they seek to have an attachment to, object relations also apply to us as partners.  pwBPD take your projections and show you mirror, what you want to see.  Now from your perspective using object relations your ex was a shinny toy, a picture of perfection.  The wheels on the toy matched your wheels, remember your ex is looking at a toy and making a mirror image.  Same paint job, same little emblems and the turning circle of this toy, WOW the same.  You fell in love with yourself, two identical toys.  

Now that your ex has a new toy that they are mirroring, they have changed wheels, running 19" chrome's, a new paint job and that toy has had the suspension dumped as well.  To the new attachment, that toy is perfect, a mirror image and you are seeing a toy that has now changed hands, another kid is playing with it over in the sandbox and its causing you a great deal of pain.  You have lost your perfect toy.  Your stuck in the corner of the sandbox with nothing.  

Your ex, this is there coping mechanism, they are shape shifters by nature, changing paint jobs, rims and everything else to be accepted.  To your ex this is the only way to survive as without doing this, there is no toy.  THEY are nothing and you cant play with anyone when your nothing.  No sense of self.  

They live in this moment being that mirror to the attachment that soothes them and cares for them.  The acting out I will get to shortly.  Essentially they don't feel, they don't be one with anything else other than that object.  Living in this very moment like this, they view all events from this perspective, that means they look at you and they don't see a person or a toy that they once enjoyed playing with but a broken object that is not what their current mirror is, because it is not what is safe, it is a threat, that other toy (you) has done things that in their current state wouldn't fit their mirror therefore that toy is a threat.  Let the emotions fly, keep the threat away!  You are now a bad toy.  

How does this dynamic occur or develop on a pwBPD, or cluster B in general... . I'll touch on NPD and BPD that I have been reading a lot on.  

Between the ages of 2-8 approximately (differs child to child), children have what's refereed to as primary narcissism.  This is where children have significant physical and emotional needs that they are dependant on their primary caregiver to meet.  As they grow older children focus there energy onto the world around them and grow out of this 'primary narcissism' where they don't feel the compulsion to mirror there primary care giver to have those emotional and physical needs met.  This is part of the psychological growth process.  They become aware, accepting of what is around them in the world, many different objects that they can interact with.  Thgis develops empathy in a person, the ability to put oneself in another's shoes and relate to their circumstances.  

During this developmental stage of growing out or their primary narcissism children often 'regress' when in stressful situations, a toddler cry's a lot more than a 6 year old.  When a 6 year old is hurt or under stress they regress to their primary narcissism, cry act out to seek attention, mirror the object to be soothed.  The primary care giver is attentive and encourages this behaviour, constantly jumping up and running over and always soothing the child, they learn that it is acceptable, it is a valid coping mechanism to survive in the world.  This child wont grow beyond this primary narcissism, it will develop and become a part of them into adulthood.  This leads to someone with NPD.  Over cared for, over indulged, they believe they are everything and if they don't get their way, a tantrum erupts.  Empathy never develops, it is only them that is ever correct, others don't matter, they are always right, when they say something, mummy always says its ok.  

During this same developmental stage of growing out of the primary narcissism for a pwBPD they don't get that soothing, they tend to be neglected.  They learn that it isn't acceptable to feel, act out, express emotions, when they do they get nothing in return.  They shut-down as their is no reward form their primary care giver to be open with what they are feeling they get ignored.  There emotions are never developed (validated) as they are always suppressed.  The primary care giver to this child is often distant, inattentive and pre-occupied with something else, the child learns that they are not important, they have to constantly be on guard and mirror to survive and not express there pain.  Not develop, not grow psychologically.  Just stay in a stagnant state to survive.  They don't relate to anything other than what that primary caregiver, often mummy is doing at that very point in time, no outside objects, no ability to empathise.  

As they grow, the emotions that they are suppressing are growing as well, often by the time children are 12 (particularly pwBPD) some  of the coping mechanisms are present, some of the acting out is present.  Why, they are in the outside world, school, they cant cope, to many things to mirror, to many variations, it all keeps changing so fast, they can't keep up, to many mirrors to maintain.  Something has to give and it cant be the other people, those other people don't care for them, they don't sooth them they have to do this themselves.  

So the pwBPD learns to give, learns to sooth, cuts to release endorphins, gets a instant rush to sooth the constant mirroring that they have to do to keep up with all the different objects around them.  At home there was only one object they had to be careful around only one object they had to be ignored by and mirror to maintain the peace.  

To get away from all of these objects, this child, even though they may be 15, 18 or even 30 now only wants ONE primary object, one primary caregiver.  They are sexually active as often this leads to the object latching on, instant loyalty, instant attachment from the object that opens up and is easier for them to mirror to stay safe.  This isn't an emotive process for them but a coping skill to get a figure to mirror to be loyal.  

People with BPD and NPD are in a constant state of regression where they haven't developed psychologically.  They have different ways of acting out, expressing their needs and having them met.  

To someone with NPD, to invalidate them is to cause their emotions that were always validated to be stung, it is like whipping a kid.  The pain is instant and their reaction instant emotional raise of the cards, the louder they scream that they are correct the more likely it will be heard.  THEY ARE RIGHT MUMMY ALWAYS SOOTHED THEIR WANTS AND NEEDS.  As someone with NPD how they feel and they wont be able to stop talking.  

To  someone with BPD, to invalidate them is to cause them to suppress emotions even further, to have these emotions build up more and more.  They can't express them because NO-ONE CARES, they have to give way and not be open for you to love them, for themselves to feel safe.  This child when given a beating wasnt soother and had to suppress those feelings.  They have to be a mirror to be safe, no feelings, nothing other than that one safe object.  Ask someone with BPD how they feel about something and they will clam up, wont be able to speak, they are not allowed to have emotions, they are suppressed.  You will get a cryptic answer to test out how you feel about it s that they can mirror you.  

Remember now the pwBPD has a new safe mirror.  your very presence is a threat to that reality.  Your existence in any way shape or form in their life overwhelms them, you are not their object, how can they mirror two objects at once, they will fail.  WHAT TO DO, IT HURT TO MUCH, I CANT SUPPRESS IT ALL.  then the rage, the acting out, the defamation and slander comes full force.  All those bad emotions they cant contain are projected onto you as your causing that pain to come up to the surface and they cant have it as that ins't their reality at that point in time, that isn't their object that they are mirroring.  That toy is a threat!

You have just sent an e-mail off saying, "Hi I still exist, I'm still a threat, your current existence is all a lie."  

NC or LC enables you to stay away from the projections, allows the pwBPD to sooth their emotions, detach from all of that pain of loosing that object to mirror is causing.  Their is a reason people say let it play out ignore it.  Because their is nothing you can do to stop it.  It will escalate their pain and their projections, you will hear more about what is being said, get more angry get more worked up, WHY ME WHY ME, WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS TO ME, MY MIRROR THAT WAS SO PERFECT IS SAYING IT WAS ALL FALSE?

Would you walk up to a 3 year old playing in the sandpit and steal the shiny toy that they were playing with.  If you did what would cause that three year old more pain, you sitting in the opposite corner playing away with that toy so they constantly have a reminder.  The three year old is going to go get a new toy and start playing, they will be happy after the no longer remember that toy as they have a new toy.  By instigating contact you are escalating there tantrum, reminding them of the toy that they lost, with all of those bad emotions as there toy has been stolen, that toy is still in view and it is interfering with their relationship with the new toy because it is bringing back bad memories.  

Remember, your very existence is a threat to a pwBPD.  They might come back to try and play with the old toy from time to time but their are always negative connotations.  They cant suppress these so easily because they are so many that built up where they had to give you something that they didn't want to to maintain the mirror to maintain that safety.  

Understanding this, hopefully having grown up in a validating balanced family where you have grown beyond these primal coping mechanisms and your able to express empathy for multiple objects and see their perspective, place yourself in their shoes and go, wow, that must be hard.  

Are you able to see that the pwBPD who you have just contacted is feeling abused, threatened, their very reality, existence is on the line here.  

Would you walk up to a three year old and tell them their new toy is a POS in the sandbox ?  Stand there and gloat about it.  

Read the two styles of acting out for someone with BPD and NPD, someone with BPD is so overwhelmed by all of those bad emotions, all of that previous 'abuse' where they gave you something to maintain the mirror that no longer fits there current reality.  

Dude, understanding this, being psychologically developed, having empathy.  Why would you do that to someone, cause all of that pain.  Tell me how it isn't abuse to the pwBPD?  

I haven't spell checked this or proofed it so I hope it flows well but this 3 year old is going to bed!
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Aussie JJ
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 08:21:52 AM »

Ill post on boundary's tomorrow but they are for you not for the pwBPD.  You can tell them politely, enforce them with EMPATHY when they are tested.  

You don't have to tell them your boundaries they are for you to uphold, they will be tested and you will hold them up and the pwBPD will learn that they cant cross that line, the little child will realise that toy is gone forever, they wont come back to play in your sandbox so to speak.  
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biglearningcurve

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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 03:10:22 PM »

AussieJJ

Thank you for your informative post.  I am trying not to take it personally that you believe (?) that my email to the expwBPD was abuse.

In my defence this was not an out of the blue, trying to separate the pwBPD from his new toy, email.

We had recycled and the day he left my house I found his other toys face book page and on it was their wedding photo.  He had married her when we were still in relationship although not intimate.  He was trying to get back with me before and he married the new toy.

Try as I might to have empathy for him I sent the email to try and cauterise my own pain and let him know I understood how he operates now.

I see from your post that it probable not the best action to take, but then I am not at my best at the moment either.

I will talk to my T today when I see her.

This interaction ( I will no longer call it a relationship), has caused me great distress but I have learnt a lot from the whole nasty experience.

To quote "2010"

"In the beginning it felt almost holy, like I had finally come alive and found someone shared the earth who understood me.  But then I realised that this was only mirroring, and a ritualised, systemic, fraudulent manipulation"

I now agree that I could have done better than by sending that email.  I cannot bear to think of myself as an abuser.

I like to think I am a good person, which is probable the biggest trait required by pwBPD to get the attachment fix that they require.

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Aussie JJ
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 06:19:41 PM »

biglearningcurve,

I have done so many things that I now know have hurt my exBPDgf.  Not out of a will to hurt her or to cause pain, most of them things out of compassion, a will to improve relations and relate properly again.  What we have to see is that they are different, their thought patters are twisted.  It has taken me so long to come to this conclusion. 

I am just as guilty of being abusive in her eyes as I have indicated you are.  It isn't a normal situation to be in.  To me was I being abusive at the time, hell no, in hindsight, hell yes!

By living and breathing, by going to pick up my son, to my ex BPD gf I am abusing her, I am questioning her reality. 

To you or I, to be selected by a pwBPD often have certain traits ourselves.  Often the people here will be so empathetic, sometimes you or I cant pick that because we are busy hurting as well.  We have empathy for ourselves and our situations, we express that pain with anger, frustration and in so many other ways.  This forum is a place where I can express that pain and have others understand. 

Being involved with a pwBPD is to use one of AJM's lines.  Like a empathy/emotional bank.  They take emotions and use them and use them some more as a currency. 

There feelings are first and foremost the important feelings involved.  An analogy goes a bit like you or I, if we earn't $2000 a month we would budget with $800 for the mortgage, $300 for the car repayments, $500 for food, $200 for transport and $200 for bills.  We survive off our salary, we break even.  A pwBPD earns $2000 a month and they get a house with $1500 repayments, a car that costs $400 a month and a total of $900 of other expenses and when they are $800 out of pocket at the end of the month they are standing there going, What the heck, why am I short, Why cant someone make the difference up for me.  Then comes their partner, their partner has to make up this difference. 

After a while constantly making up the extra $800 a month the partner is running on nothing, we have empathy so we habd over that emotional currency constantly.  We are out of currency trying to support the pwBPD, we have nothing left. 

Change cash for emotional energy, pwBPD have so many more emotional needs due to there under developed personality, they are grown children.  You and I have been making up that emotional energy for them for XYZ amount of time, we have made the difference to them so that they can survive.  At present your emotional reserves are depleted and you have to work through to get them back up, pay the debt back to the bank so that your balance is even again.  A balanced sheet is what your after again so that you can go on a live a normal life again. 

Something I do to 'detach' is I always refer to my exBPD as 'sons mother'.  This is objectification, this is being very very unemotional about it.  When I have my son there, it's Hello Mummy, how are you going, what is mummy going to make for dinner.  I then use my emotional energy to ensure it is normal for my son.  my exBPDgf calls me by my first name, never refers to me as daddy in-front of our son, she is unable to have that empathy for our son or me, to acknowledge my role in his life. 

Am I angry about this?  I am FURIOUS, pointing it out will hurt her more, her behaviour will change with time towards me.  I am conditioning a 3 year old child to behave properly again. 

I just want to say, NC or LC is a tool that YOU have to process all of this.  objectifying the interaction using 'toys' instead of names allows us to step back and not be emotional about it.  IT is a rather, weird process, unlike any other relationship you will ever have. 

Now your last line, "I like to think I am a good person".  I want to try and correct what I'm hearing here.

I think your doubting yourself, questioning if you are a good person, it is perfectly natural to do this, go through this process and question your motives.  By doing this, you are educating yourself, growing as a person and becoming 'whole' again.  As I said above you have to get your emotional bank back to a balanced sheet. 

This process is hard and every so often the pwBPD will come back in  (read = try to recycle) and your credit card will take a hit.  We stay at it keep working and get back to a balanced sheet.  Eventually with the knowledge from here when the pwBPD comes back our bank doesn't take a hit, we are detached and uninvolved. 

I am not their yet, I am still a bloody long way off.  I am working through the same process as you.  It is a horrible journey but just like you will, I'll get there.  I'll be stronger at the end of it and I will never let anyone run up that debt on my credit card ever again. 

If you haven't seen your T yet, when you do, bugger the pwBPD, talk about yourself, talk about how good a person you are.  This is the ONE thing that helped me move on, starting to love myself and invest in myself again.  Keep learning about BPD, make sure you keep working on yourself though.  You are a good person, you ar eworthy of investing time in yourself and you have to tell yourself this.  This is the hardest thing assbeing in a relationship/interaction with a pwBPD for so long you havent been able to do this. 


AJJ. 
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biglearningcurve

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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 06:46:53 PM »

AJJ.  Thank you Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 07:45:56 PM »

I don't have anything to add to the thread other than to say that this quote (see below) made me smile.  I think it is beautiful and so very giving of you as a parent.  As an  "adult child of" I can say that is truly wonderful to hear.  good job AJJ

AJJ said: 
Excerpt
Something I do to 'detach' is I always refer to my exBPD as 'sons mother'.  This is objectification, this is being very very unemotional about it.  When I have my son there, it's Hello Mummy, how are you going, what is mummy going to make for dinner.  I then use my emotional energy to ensure it is normal for my son.  my exBPDgf calls me by my first name, never refers to me as daddy in-front of our son, she is unable to have that empathy for our son or me, to acknowledge my role in his life. 

BLC, I wish you the very best.
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 08:07:29 PM »

I have recently sent my exbfunBPD an email saying that I can see what and who he is all about now and never what any contact with him again... .not even when he parts from his current object  .even if he had terminal cancer.

Your uBPDexbf has hurt you and you are allowed to end it and you did so, loud and clear.  You are also allowed to be angry with him and you are allowed to express your feelings. But you're done with him so now your energy should be focused on you. Healing and moving on from this relationship.

But to answer your question does a pwBPD know when we are on to them?  My SO flat out confronted his uBPDex and told her that he believed that she had BPD and he was on to her.  All you could hear was crickets chirping... .no comment from her and no suprise (which makes me suspect she has been diagnosed in her past). She just moved right on like nothing was said.  So I guess the real question is... .does it make any difference if they know we are on to them?  In my SO's case the answer no.



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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 08:38:14 PM »

biglearningcurve,

I have done so many things that I now know have hurt my exBPDgf.  Not out of a will to hurt her or to cause pain, most of them things out of compassion, a will to improve relations and relate properly again.  What we have to see is that they are different, their thought patters are twisted.  It has taken me so long to come to this conclusion. 

I am just as guilty of being abusive in her eyes as I have indicated you are.  It isn't a normal situation to be in.  To me was I being abusive at the time, hell no, in hindsight, hell yes!

By living and breathing, by going to pick up my son, to my ex BPD gf I am abusing her, I am questioning her reality. 

To you or I, to be selected by a pwBPD often have certain traits ourselves.  Often the people here will be so empathetic, sometimes you or I cant pick that because we are busy hurting as well.  We have empathy for ourselves and our situations, we express that pain with anger, frustration and in so many other ways.  This forum is a place where I can express that pain and have others understand. 

Being involved with a pwBPD is to use one of AJM's lines.  Like a empathy/emotional bank.  They take emotions and use them and use them some more as a currency. 

There feelings are first and foremost the important feelings involved.  An analogy goes a bit like you or I, if we earn't $2000 a month we would budget with $800 for the mortgage, $300 for the car repayments, $500 for food, $200 for transport and $200 for bills.  We survive off our salary, we break even.  A pwBPD earns $2000 a month and they get a house with $1500 repayments, a car that costs $400 a month and a total of $900 of other expenses and when they are $800 out of pocket at the end of the month they are standing there going, What the heck, why am I short, Why cant someone make the difference up for me.  Then comes their partner, their partner has to make up this difference. 

After a while constantly making up the extra $800 a month the partner is running on nothing, we have empathy so we habd over that emotional currency constantly.  We are out of currency trying to support the pwBPD, we have nothing left. 

Change cash for emotional energy, pwBPD have so many more emotional needs due to there under developed personality, they are grown children.  You and I have been making up that emotional energy for them for XYZ amount of time, we have made the difference to them so that they can survive.  At present your emotional reserves are depleted and you have to work through to get them back up, pay the debt back to the bank so that your balance is even again.  A balanced sheet is what your after again so that you can go on a live a normal life again. 

Something I do to 'detach' is I always refer to my exBPD as 'sons mother'.  This is objectification, this is being very very unemotional about it.  When I have my son there, it's Hello Mummy, how are you going, what is mummy going to make for dinner.  I then use my emotional energy to ensure it is normal for my son.  my exBPDgf calls me by my first name, never refers to me as daddy in-front of our son, she is unable to have that empathy for our son or me, to acknowledge my role in his life. 

Am I angry about this?  I am FURIOUS, pointing it out will hurt her more, her behaviour will change with time towards me.  I am conditioning a 3 year old child to behave properly again. 

I just want to say, NC or LC is a tool that YOU have to process all of this.  objectifying the interaction using 'toys' instead of names allows us to step back and not be emotional about it.  IT is a rather, weird process, unlike any other relationship you will ever have. 

Now your last line, "I like to think I am a good person".  I want to try and correct what I'm hearing here.

I think your doubting yourself, questioning if you are a good person, it is perfectly natural to do this, go through this process and question your motives.  By doing this, you are educating yourself, growing as a person and becoming 'whole' again.  As I said above you have to get your emotional bank back to a balanced sheet. 

This process is hard and every so often the pwBPD will come back in  (read = try to recycle) and your credit card will take a hit.  We stay at it keep working and get back to a balanced sheet.  Eventually with the knowledge from here when the pwBPD comes back our bank doesn't take a hit, we are detached and uninvolved. 

I am not their yet, I am still a bloody long way off.  I am working through the same process as you.  It is a horrible journey but just like you will, I'll get there.  I'll be stronger at the end of it and I will never let anyone run up that debt on my credit card ever again. 

If you haven't seen your T yet, when you do, bugger the pwBPD, talk about yourself, talk about how good a person you are.  This is the ONE thing that helped me move on, starting to love myself and invest in myself again.  Keep learning about BPD, make sure you keep working on yourself though.  You are a good person, you ar eworthy of investing time in yourself and you have to tell yourself this.  This is the hardest thing assbeing in a relationship/interaction with a pwBPD for so long you havent been able to do this. 


AJJ. 

Thanks for sharing, AJJ. 

"Read the two styles of acting out for someone with BPD and NPD, someone with BPD is so overwhelmed by all of those bad emotions, all of that previous 'abuse' where they gave you something to maintain the mirror that no longer fits there current reality."

As much as I've read about NPD and BPD, and the ways in which they act out, I'm still not really clear on the two styles of acting out and how they differ.  I know that there's sometimes some overlap. Can you provide more insight on this? (Examples for NPD, and BPD)

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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 09:28:59 PM »

Blissful,

I am starting to understand A LOT more however I am not going to pretend to have all the answers. 

On a basic level, very rudimentary. 

Cluster B's "dramatic/emotive" PD's

NPD - Outward acting, they are superior, always open up as they are always correct!

BPD - Inward acting, they are inferior, suppress emotions until they cant anymore. 

HPD - DRAMATIC, everything is WOW factor

ASPD - Nothing, no emotion, no feelings. 

NPD, essentially all of there emotions like a BPD are true, pwBPD turn on themselves and hold back that shame as they were ignored as children, to stay safe they couldn't feel.  NPD due to their childhood are used to people agreeing, pandering to their needs, hence they EXPLODE when you don't agree, this is the narcissistic wound.  NPD's have to be correct, there is no reasoning, no other way, its all black and white. 

On many levels it all comes down to empathy.  The ability to understand how someone else will feel.  It is non-existent with these PD's.  They never developed as growing up to 'feel' the outside world. 

I have to put a clause on all of this here, I am still learning this stuff. 

A lot of it for me is from a personal perspective, my interpretation in my life of how this has worked based on the theory I have gone through, for me my mother is a closet narcissist with a streak of BPD, this is where I learnt to be controlled, to shut-down emotionally and accept or comply with others demands.  My ex is BPD and then some with a streak of NPD. 

Predominantly they have a certain type of disordered thinking however it is a spectrum, they can go back and forth a bit either way to suit their 'feelings' at that point in time.  Either way shame based, they were not good enough for their parents (BPD) or (NPD) were to good in their parents eyes and now that shame is when being told (NPD) that they are not good enough by an external object, they cant handle this and act out. 

I know this is basic, with my mum, I have tried using SET (I am practising it for every bit of communication so that it becomes natural).  Using SET with a narcissist will make them go off, you have listened to them, empathised with their position (boosted their ego, told them they are correct) and then you are correcting this reality, shattering it on them.  EGO goes POOF and the tantrum erupts. 

Instant narcissistic wound.  Instant acting out. 

Does that sort of make sense ? 

It is interesting as I have a bit of narcissism in the way I act that is learnt from my mum, not full blown but when someone questions me, I shut-down (BPD like) and then act out (NPD like defending myself).  I class it as more passive aggressive.  I know when I'm not wrong I can understand others positions however I tend to shut-down myself.  I am exactly the same as my dad here.  I am a product of my parents!  Something worth exploring yourselves... . 


AJJ. 
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2014, 03:06:54 PM »

Blissful,

I am starting to understand A LOT more however I am not going to pretend to have all the answers.  

On a basic level, very rudimentary.  

Cluster B's "dramatic/emotive" PD's

NPD - Outward acting, they are superior, always open up as they are always correct!

BPD - Inward acting, they are inferior, suppress emotions until they cant anymore.  

HPD - DRAMATIC, everything is WOW factor

ASPD - Nothing, no emotion, no feelings.  

NPD, essentially all of there emotions like a BPD are true, pwBPD turn on themselves and hold back that shame as they were ignored as children, to stay safe they couldn't feel.  NPD due to their childhood are used to people agreeing, pandering to their needs, hence they EXPLODE when you don't agree, this is the narcissistic wound.  NPD's have to be correct, there is no reasoning, no other way, its all black and white.  

On many levels it all comes down to empathy.  The ability to understand how someone else will feel.  It is non-existent with these PD's.  They never developed as growing up to 'feel' the outside world.  

I have to put a clause on all of this here, I am still learning this stuff.  

A lot of it for me is from a personal perspective, my interpretation in my life of how this has worked based on the theory I have gone through, for me my mother is a closet narcissist with a streak of BPD, this is where I learnt to be controlled, to shut-down emotionally and accept or comply with others demands.  My ex is BPD and then some with a streak of NPD.  

Predominantly they have a certain type of disordered thinking however it is a spectrum, they can go back and forth a bit either way to suit their 'feelings' at that point in time.  Either way shame based, they were not good enough for their parents (BPD) or (NPD) were to good in their parents eyes and now that shame is when being told (NPD) that they are not good enough by an external object, they cant handle this and act out.  

I know this is basic, with my mum, I have tried using SET (I am practising it for every bit of communication so that it becomes natural).  Using SET with a narcissist will make them go off, you have listened to them, empathised with their position (boosted their ego, told them they are correct) and then you are correcting this reality, shattering it on them.  EGO goes POOF and the tantrum erupts.  

Instant narcissistic wound.  Instant acting out.  

Does that sort of make sense ?  

It is interesting as I have a bit of narcissism in the way I act that is learnt from my mum, not full blown but when someone questions me, I shut-down (BPD like) and then act out (NPD like defending myself).  I class it as more passive aggressive.  I know when I'm not wrong I can understand others positions however I tend to shut-down myself.  I am exactly the same as my dad here.  I am a product of my parents!  Something worth exploring yourselves... . 


AJJ.  

Yes, you've expressed it really well, and it makes sense.  Thank you for your detailed response, and examples.

If I understand this correctly, then, SET tools will calm/validate/soothe a pwBPD.  In contrast, SET will have the opposite effect on a pwNPD.  

BPD's are hesitant and not eager to talk things through (they recede).  NPD's aren't hesitant, and go in the other direction, reactive acting out.  ?

When feeling overwhelmed-stressed, my ex would shut down emotionally, pulling his energy inward. He wouldn't speak.  He ran away.  Radio silence. Silent treatment. The shutdowns sometimes lasted for days.

If I reached out to him, during his shutdown, he ignored my calls, or answered simply to hang up the phone.  When he finally wanted to talk, he was angry, I listened, and I validated him where I could until he calmed down. He expressed that during those shutdowns, he felt nothing for others -- he didn't care about anyone else or their well being.  Is that classic BPD, NPD, ASPD, or a mixture of all?  

Sometimes I tried to prevent a shutdown. It was quite often impossible. When I saw it coming, I'd gently encourage him to talk about his feelings.  His reaction to that was instant acting out.  Yelling, emotionally abusive, projection, blaming, stomping around, and so forth.  So is that acting out (raging) more of an NPD trait?    

He was drawn to drama (there was rarely calm) when he was in excited-mode.  That was his form of 'good' mood.  Town-drama, work-drama, gossip, other-people-drama, those things seemed to recharge him.  He sought out drama as if seeking relief from boredom.  He had a low threshold for 'calm' if that makes sense.  That seems like an HPD trait (the wow factor), but also ASPD (low threshold for 'boredom'.  

It seems as though he had overlapping traits of at least a few PD's in the dramatic cluster.

Thanks so much again for your thorough explanation, AJJ.  I look forward to hearing any feedback that you may have. -- Blissful  


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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2014, 03:10:50 PM »

biglearningcurve,

Something that I will highlight, people with BPD are so soo much more sensitive than us.  Although we get hurt and frustrated by there behaviours, when they are 'acting out' they are hurting like we cant believe. 

Please be mindful of this pain that they are in.  It is healthy to be angry, frustrated and even furious ourselves to deal with what has transpired.  I don't think it is healthy to cause any other person pain, especially when we have control over ourselves.  Remember that pwBPD don't have that control, understanding that your ex has just got this e-mail now it will trigger them and all those bad behaviours to counter that pain will ensue. 

Be the person you want to be every day, hold yourself to a higher standard.  Was sending that e-mail being the person you want to be ?

If your ex with BPD was able to do this I am 100 % positive that they would.  It is not a pleasant existence and the knowledge we gain here shouldn't be used to ABUSE another person. 

I am sorry if this is a bit harsh, I feel it is the truth.  It isn't healthy to hurt others in our lives, no matter whom they are or what they have done to us. 


AJJ.

I cannot agree. My uBPDxgf knew, and still knows, what she did. I wish her nothing good.
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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2014, 04:02:43 PM »

Blissful,

I am starting to understand A LOT more however I am not going to pretend to have all the answers. 

On a basic level, very rudimentary. 

Cluster B's "dramatic/emotive" PD's

NPD - Outward acting, they are superior, always open up as they are always correct!

BPD - Inward acting, they are inferior, suppress emotions until they cant anymore. 

HPD - DRAMATIC, everything is WOW factor

ASPD - Nothing, no emotion, no feelings. 

Not so easy to spot an ASPD on the basis of 'no emotions/feelings' as they do have cognitive empathy and use it to their advantage.
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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2014, 04:19:18 PM »

Blissful,

I am starting to understand A LOT more however I am not going to pretend to have all the answers. 

On a basic level, very rudimentary. 

Cluster B's "dramatic/emotive" PD's

NPD - Outward acting, they are superior, always open up as they are always correct!

BPD - Inward acting, they are inferior, suppress emotions until they cant anymore. 

HPD - DRAMATIC, everything is WOW factor

ASPD - Nothing, no emotion, no feelings. 

Not so easy to spot an ASPD on the basis of 'no emotions/feelings' as they do have cognitive empathy and use it to their advantage.

Is cognitive empathy a parroted form of true/real empathy?  In other words, it's expressed superficially for specific gain? 
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« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2014, 10:09:29 PM »

AJJ: funny thing is--you used money as an analogy, but it's EXACTLY how he manages resources. He says he has problems managing money, but it's ALL resources: interesting irony.

There feelings are first and foremost the important feelings involved.  An analogy goes a bit like you or I, if we earn't $2000 a month we would budget with $800 for the mortgage, $300 for the car repayments, $500 for food, $200 for transport and $200 for bills.  We survive off our salary, we break even.  A pwBPD earns $2000 a month and they get a house with $1500 repayments, a car that costs $400 a month and a total of $900 of other expenses and when they are $800 out of pocket at the end of the month they are standing there going, What the heck, why am I short, Why cant someone make the difference up for me.  Then comes their partner, their partner has to make up this difference. 

After a while constantly making up the extra $800 a month the partner is running on nothing, we have empathy so we habd over that emotional currency constantly.  We are out of currency trying to support the pwBPD, we have nothing left. 
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« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2014, 11:00:58 PM »

One more question, BLC and AJJ (I just finished reading the entire thread). I have let exbfBPD know almost from the beginning that he is a uBPD (though I'm betting I'm not the first to tell him that. Anyway, I have sent him a number of either questioning or confronting text with screen shots of his own texts. I don't consider this abuse but reminding myself and him of reality--using his own words from screen shots. This in no way has been meant to shame or abuse. Are you saying this is prolonging and exacerbating his pain as it is mine? And as far as I know he never broke up with me or has a shiny new toy? But I am on Day 20 of silent treatment.
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« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2014, 11:28:35 PM »

One more question, BLC and AJJ (I just finished reading the entire thread). I have let exbfBPD know almost from the beginning that he is a uBPD (though I'm betting I'm not the first to tell him that. Anyway, I have sent him a number of either questioning or confronting text with screen shots of his own texts. I don't consider this abuse but reminding myself and him of reality--using his own words from screen shots. This in no way has been meant to shame or abuse. Are you saying this is prolonging and exacerbating his pain as it is mine? And as far as I know he never broke up with me or has a shiny new toy? But I am on Day 20 of silent treatment.

i'm of the mind that you shouldn't really care too much if you are hurting your ex or not. however, this does come with a *very* important exception--and that is if your ex may be suicidal. suicide is very real for people suffering PDs so should be taken into account.

in my case i don't think my ex was suicidal. just a hot mess. honestly i could care less if something i did hurt her or not. however, the vast majority of things i could have done to hurt her only would look bad upon me after time passed and i looked back on it. so, regarding sending him emails of texts, etc., i wouldn't waste too much time worrying whether you're hurting his feelings. but, you should understand that the reality is that any response you give him is a 'win' for him at this point. even negative attention for him is something he desires. and this keeps you personally attached.

it sounds like you are still in the early stages after the breakup and not established No Contact yet. so this is a tough time. you know, recently i went through some old messages i had sent to some friends of my ex, about my ex. it was when i first discovered BPD, and after they had sought me out over a year after the breakup when they independently started being affected by her abusive behavior. reading the messages what i can say is this--i'm really, very glad that i conducted myself in an honorable fashion. perhaps not perfect but i remember starting to read some stuff i wrote and being worried some of it would be really nasty, and i was relieved that it wasn't. it was direct, expressive, but not nasty. it would be embarrassing if i had a lot of messages where in fact i was the disregulated one   so, think about your future self looking back on your behavior now as a guide. and it's very, very important to remember in this digital age--nothing disappears completely. old emails, social media messages, text messages--all this stuff can come back to haunt you years later. keep 'em clean cadet! 

i admit i said some nasty things in arguments when we broke up. don't feel guilty about it at all though. but boy would it be embarrassing if this was all captured in digital media of some form. be wise. now is a time to protect yourself, from him and also from your own impulses. best to you.
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« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2014, 11:37:30 PM »

Wise counsel, Goldy! Thanks, and I have written nothing yet that I would feel embarrassed for the WWW to see. But it's a great boundary to set for myself going forward.
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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2014, 12:11:02 AM »

NC prevents the continuance of the abuse cycle. 

The longer you remain in contact the longer it takes them to move on etc.  The more they act out and keep abusing you. 

Consider it for your health. 



Blissful,

a pwBPD suppresses all of the bad and holds it inside, when they cant do it any more, its too painful they act out.  A pwNPD always acts out.  This is not a hard and fast rule however as a 'guide' it is how they operate. 

In regards to a bit of everything, or having a bit of each disorder.  They are formed at the same developmental stage, I don't understand this properly, cant explain it as in depth and be confident in what I'm saying being true, however coping mechanisms of a three year old is fairly accurate way of thinking about it.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I'll have to find the article on the schema's and link it for you. 
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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2014, 12:32:58 AM »

Not so easy to spot an ASPD on the basis of 'no emotions/feelings' as they do have cognitive empathy and use it to their advantage.

Very true, the emotional side of empathy is lacking and it is hard to pick up on this.  TY for correcting. 
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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2014, 12:55:12 AM »

One more question, BLC and AJJ (I just finished reading the entire thread). I have let exbfBPD know almost from the beginning that he is a uBPD (though I'm betting I'm not the first to tell him that. Anyway, I have sent him a number of either questioning or confronting text with screen shots of his own texts. I don't consider this abuse but reminding myself and him of reality--using his own words from screen shots. This in no way has been meant to shame or abuse. Are you saying this is prolonging and exacerbating his pain as it is mine? And as far as I know he never broke up with me or has a shiny new toy? But I am on Day 20 of silent treatment.

Loveofhislife.

I would suggest that if you want to detach from your ex any form of communication is prolonging and exacerbating the pain for both of you.

In my case there has not been regular contact, but we recently recycled as I had too many "what ifs", so I decided to reengage with him.

This is when I discovered he had married a women from the other side of the world when on holiday when we were still "good friends" and not bothered to tell me.

When he got disenchanted with his shiny new toy he came back to me to see if he still liked the old toy.

  When the old toy found out that he had married the new toy and he had not told the old toy, she wrote him an emailed saying she never wanted to be his toy again under any circumstances.

The old toy was trying to create a big boundary fence so that when he got sick of the shiny new married toy again he would not come back.

This old toy is played out and I will do whatever it takes to be NC and step off the drama triangle and move on and forward in my life.

He can try and contact me but I will no longer reply.  He will have to go and find some newer than new shiny toy.

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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2014, 12:57:27 AM »

I would suggest that if you want to detach from your ex any form of communication is prolonging and exacerbating the pain for both of you.

In my case there has not been regular contact, but we recently recycled as I had too many "what ifs", so I decided to reengage with him.

This is when I discovered he had married a women from the other side of the world when on holiday when we were still "good friends" and not bothered to tell me.

When he got disenchanted with his shiny new toy he came back to me to see if he still liked the old toy.

  When the old toy found out that he had married the new toy and he had not told the old toy, she wrote him an emailed saying she never wanted to be his toy again under any circumstances.

The old toy was trying to create a big boundary fence so that when he got sick of the shiny new married toy again he would not come back.

This old toy is played out and I will do whatever it takes to be NC and step off the drama triangle and move on and forward in my life.

He can try and contact me but I will no longer reply.  He will have to go and find some newer than new shiny toy.

HHAHAHA,

It is nice referring to  it all in sadpit psych terms, for me I found it eased the pain.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Any yes, I'm from Australia!
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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2014, 02:16:50 AM »

Before I left my BPDex I actually did tell him the most abusive and offensive behaviors that he had, which was why I had no choice but to leave.

He projected it all right back, and insisted that I was the one that acted that way and done those bad things and not him.  I knew then that he was always going to be messed up in the head.

NO contact, Never ever. It is the only way for both you and the BPDex to move on and leave the past behind.

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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2014, 02:07:30 PM »

This might sort of help explain a fair bit of the different emotional 'modes' you will be aware of. 

For me, I can recognize the punitive parent I know I have to back right off real fast, that is VERY dangerous for my EX, I have seen her hospitalised in the past when she hits this mode. I just wasn't aware of BPD. 

Once she hits abandoned child mode all bets are lost as far as regulation goes.  ATM she is in this mode most of the time around me apart form when she thinks she has won something, then it is a mode I refer to as cookie jar mode, "I STOLE THE COOKIE FROM THE COOKIE JAR AND YOU DONT KNOW NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH".  Unfortunately I can often see this one coming or evaluate it afterwards and pick the lie... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=229500.0
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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2014, 06:34:44 PM »

This might sort of help explain a fair bit of the different emotional 'modes' you will be aware of. 

For me, I can recognize the punitive parent I know I have to back right off real fast, that is VERY dangerous for my EX, I have seen her hospitalised in the past when she hits this mode. I just wasn't aware of BPD. 

Once she hits abandoned child mode all bets are lost as far as regulation goes.  ATM she is in this mode most of the time around me apart form when she thinks she has won something, then it is a mode I refer to as cookie jar mode, "I STOLE THE COOKIE FROM THE COOKIE JAR AND YOU DONT KNOW NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH".  Unfortunately I can often see this one coming or evaluate it afterwards and pick the lie... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=229500.0

Thanks for your insight, and the link, AJJ.  I'm looking forward to reading it. 
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« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2014, 08:28:46 PM »

I began to tell her what I and others (namely an MD cousin of mine who got me started on investigating BPD) had her pegged as near the beginning of the start of NC.  In the conversation to initiate NC, I even read a 14 point list I'd found online of what being in a relationship with a BPD feels like for the non; I had everything thrown/projected right back on to me.  The one conversation we had post NC, I was told again that I'm too sensitive, that I make her feel like a monster (after she hooked up with a guy the night/day of meeting me for the first time in 6 weeks after declaring her love), and that her therapist "definitely" says she doesn't have it (though I have serious reason to doubt her claims of therapy, and at the very least know she isn't doing that much work on herself given her traveling and 5 week NC period). 

The funny thing is, she's even asked me a couple times what she has wrong with her and has referred to her self as a broken car and acknowledged her myriad issues; but when it comes down to it, she's still as cold and emotionally abusive as ever.
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« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2014, 09:18:29 PM »

My ex knows. She told me a few stories of when other exes were onto her (tip of the iceberg anyone?), and I let her know at the end that I was, too. I'm sure it's what keeps her from contacting me more often. On the run.
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« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2014, 10:46:33 PM »

AussieJJ

Thank you for your informative post.  I am trying not to take it personally that you believe (?) that my email to the expwBPD was abuse.

In my defence this was not an out of the blue, trying to separate the pwBPD from his new toy, email.

We had recycled and the day he left my house I found his other toys face book page and on it was their wedding photo.  He had married her when we were still in relationship although not intimate.  He was trying to get back with me before and he married the new toy.

Try as I might to have empathy for him I sent the email to try and cauterise my own pain and let him know I understood how he operates now.

I see from your post that it probable not the best action to take, but then I am not at my best at the moment either.

I will talk to my T today when I see her.

This interaction ( I will no longer call it a relationship), has caused me great distress but I have learnt a lot from the whole nasty experience.

To quote "2010"

"In the beginning it felt almost holy, like I had finally come alive and found someone shared the earth who understood me.  But then I realised that this was only mirroring, and a ritualised, systemic, fraudulent manipulation"

I now agree that I could have done better than by sending that email.  I cannot bear to think of myself as an abuser.

I like to think I am a good person, which is probable the biggest trait required by pwBPD to get the attachment fix that they require.

Hi there

I've had communications with my stbx that I'm not proud about but cripes I've been treading on eggshells for so many years I can forgive myself for slipping up occasionally. But the best antidote  for me is NC. Each time we interact it's a set back... .
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« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2014, 02:40:49 PM »

I have called my ex a BPD in 2012, so she knew what i thought in my head. plus, many times i feel she would leave me because i knew every cell of her body. i knew every thought that was going in her head and why. she couldn't lie to me because i would call her out. she would wear a million masks in front of others, but in front of me she couldn't. and that probably would stress her out too. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). a lot of times i felt she would come back to me because i am the only person in front of whom she didnt have to act or put on an appearance. but a lot of times she would run away because of the same reason. i used to have a joke that i have a phd in her. haha.
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« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2014, 05:41:08 PM »

When they know we are onto them, they know that they have to find someone easier to manipulate.
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« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2014, 09:20:43 PM »

When they know we are onto them, they know that they have to find someone easier to manipulate.

That is what prompted me to start this post.  After sending the pwBPD an email telling him I now know who and what he is about and I wanted no more contact,  is he still likely to  contact me or move on to the next object.

Guess only time will tell.  I will just have to keep my own boundaries and move on with my life.
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« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2014, 11:02:59 PM »

I dont believe being involved with a person with BPD is having a relationship.  You can not have a relationship with these people. They are incapable of it. They are mentally ill.   This is the true reality. 

       I dont think it matters how hard you try or how much you think you know what you are doing with them. It will never be a two way relationship.  and to indicate you are getting your needs met from them because you seem to know exactly how they tick is denial. Everything is abuse to them. Also I understand they are very sensitive,  but I am too,  probably just as much or even more so. I just deal with my feelings in a more healthier rational way.

                         You may as well put on a white jump suit and be an orderly with no pay check. To claim that nons are abusing them for trying to protect ourselves is wrong, it is their perception of being abused and anything, a door mouse can trigger this.  They have no emphathy for us nons.  They cant do it.  Its not their fault but its not ours either. Whose to say which action a non takes is right or wrong, it depends on the situation and BPD. No one knows the dynamics of what is going on then the ones who are in it.
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« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2014, 12:17:10 AM »

A pwBPD has empathy - it's an emotional based disorder. Sociopaths don't have empathy. It seems like they can have no empathy for someone else if they are emotional dysregulated. A characteristic for BPD is unstable relationships - they can't sustain an interpersonal relationship. The core wound of abandonment - trauma from their past  acting out in the here and now. It's not about you - it's about their core wound.

If the pwBPD isn't in therapy and unwilling to work on themselves, they are looking to be parented - reliving trauma instead of confronting it. It's excruciatingly painful for them to face it - but they must. Or they repeat a dysfunctional cycle.  It's my choice if I choose to parent someone or not. Having said that, they are accountable for their actions - they are adults after all. It's better for the non to get out of the relationship if they're not helping themselves.
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« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2014, 03:27:29 AM »

Mutt,

Yes Empathy but limited, remember black and white thinking.  To have empathy for someone who has wronged you is inconceivable to a pwBPD.  They are all bad and have hurt them, then the lack of empathy comes out big time.  Empathy is to put yourself in another's shoes and see how they 'feel'.  pwBPD do this through mirroring to an extent, this shouldn't be confused with empathy. 

From how to love someone with BPD book, there is an example of the author saying her husband was sick and telling a DBT group how hard it was at home at the moment doing all the cooking cleaning, how stressful it was for her.  The next week they all (all pwBPD in group) bought in food and what not so she didn't have to cook.  Now, were they showing empathy for her position or were they giving something up, no boundaries (by cooking a meal) to get a closer attachment to the therapist? 

You can say it's empathy or you can say its a insecure attachment style where they have to be validated as being good by cooking a meal for the therapist to ensure that the bond/attachment is strong and they are valued/good people in that persons eyes. 

Do you consider this empthy Mutt ?   
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« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2014, 11:22:40 AM »

When they know we are onto them, they know that they have to find someone easier to manipulate.

That is what prompted me to start this post.  After sending the pwBPD an email telling him I now know who and what he is about and I wanted no more contact,  is he still likely to  contact me or move on to the next object.

Guess only time will tell.  I will just have to keep my own boundaries and move on with my life.

I wrote mine an email after I found out he had been keeping a big secret, had lied to me while we were still together.  Although I didn't specify what I knew or who told me, I let him know I now realise all the suspicion, paranoia, etc that he showed me was actually him projecting his own untrustworthiness.  I expected to hear back from him with some bs story of denial but nope, not a word.  It's been a month and nothing.  Is this because he knows I am on to him or is it because he is already with my replacement and doesn't need to engage?  Maybe I'll never know.

Mutt, mine was not capable of showing empathy most of the time.  He used to love 'surprising' his family out east by just showing up and he expected them to be thrilled about it yet they weren't because they had their own lives and his 'surprise' was a disruption to their lives.  They asked him to stop and let them know when he was coming, that he was always welcome but please let them know.  Well, you'd think they had shot his dog or something.  He was so upset about this.  I tried over and over until I was blue in the face to explain to him what it is like from their point of view, using myself as an example of how I wouldn't like my brother just showing up unannounced and why.  But there was absolutely no getting through to him.  He was a victim and that was all he was going to see.  So many other frustrating examples of this same behaviour. 
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« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2014, 01:22:14 PM »

I never meant to be "onto" my exwife, but I once I befriended the idea that she was BPD all pieces fell into place. I suggested it to her and I was met with resistance because she did not like the idea.

But as I learnt more about BPD I started to discuss her life and her problems (and OUR problems for that matter) from a BPD perspective. It was as if I had "cracked the code" and she showed her real self.

She was really happy to confess and talk about herself, but it when it was time to conclude and when I asked what we could do to change the situation she was not to so keen to discuss anymore. She was back into projection mode or something...

I followed her to doctors and therapists who had labeled her "bipolar", and I told them they were wrong in their choice of diagnosis. My wife had mislead them. I told them (as nicely as I could) to re-consider BPD.

Eventually they did, and the day she got the BPD diagnosis she broke up with me after 20 years. She told me she was not the person I thought she was, but that she didn't want to talk about it.

Strangely, she still didn't know anything about BPD because she mentioned that she got a "borderline" diagnosis because that's what you get when the doctor's can't decide between two other diagnoses (!).

Still, she knew she had been diagnosed with a personality disorder and she obviously felt a great deal of shame about it. She knows that medication doesn't help and that that she has to work very hard in therapy to get results (something that she has mentioned to me that she is not prepared to do).

When she has that, she doesn't want to live with me anymore.

It worked better when we pretended the disorder wasn't there. Drag it out of the dark and it just doesn't work.

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« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2014, 01:38:53 PM »

I called my uBPD/NPD stbxw out on her abusive behavior and demanded couples therapy after one of her more extreme rage fits.

It only took four months of therapy for her to find another man and divorce me.

I'm sure they all respond in unique ways when called out, but one thing stands out as consistent. They want to hide from the facts and

will do anything to remain unaccountable for their abusive behavior. When in doubt, rage, project, blame shift and run for the hills.

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« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2014, 11:12:04 PM »

I'm sure they all respond in unique ways when called out, but one thing stands out as consistent. They want to hide from the facts and will do anything to remain unaccountable for their abusive behavior. When in doubt, rage, project, blame shift and run for the hills.

That seems to sum it up!
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2014, 09:55:48 AM »

I'm sure they all respond in unique ways when called out, but one thing stands out as consistent. They want to hide from the facts and will do anything to remain unaccountable for their abusive behavior. When in doubt, rage, project, blame shift and run for the hills.

That seems to sum it up!

TOTALLY
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« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2014, 11:59:31 AM »

Whenever my exbfBPD was the slightest bit "uncomfortable," the accusations started. I am considered direct and confrontational (my false self, ha ha) so I never was the best "supply" for pwBPD--except for being a caretaker, people pleaser, rescuer type codependent. Oh yeah, and a dang good Sugar Mommy. So he "endured" me for a year, I suppose, until he could get back on his feet. But there was only the most brief honeymoon period before I started calling him out on his "stuff"--took about 30 days before I knew it was BPD. I don't find labels useful (DSM, etc.) but they certainly give us a baseline and suggested treatment. I probably only used the term "borderline" once or twice and always when urging him to get into treatment for himself, our relationship, and for his children. So, he knew I was "onto him" very quickly, but as long as the money was flowing, and his bottom was getting wiped regularly by Sugar Mommy; he would try to hold back his resentment and disdain. What he couldn't hold back was his vitriole about my children, my business partner (male) and my ex husband. Occasionally, others made him jealous--but ANYONE who could conceivably threaten his Sugar Mommy life raft. Last night, after one month of SUDDEN silent treatment, failure to repay anything that he owes me; and stealing my voucher for a night at the beach; my girlfriend said, I think you're right, Lovey, he didn't abandon you for another woman--he never left the true love of his life: MONEY!
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« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2014, 04:22:39 PM »

I'm sure they all respond in unique ways when called out, but one thing stands out as consistent. They want to hide from the facts and will do anything to remain unaccountable for their abusive behavior. When in doubt, rage, project, blame shift and run for the hills.

That seems to sum it up!

TOTALLY

Yup I'm with you on this. In order to be unaccountable, my exBPDh has completely reinvented himself with brand new friends, a new found religion (Quaker) a new girl friend, and very likely a new family. This is after over 30 years together and many mutual friends. When I met him by chance, a week or so ago, the first time in 8 months, rage, projection and blame shift came out within minutes in an angry monologue directed towards me. It's hard to be the target of so much  'hate beyond reason' (to quote Thomas Sydenham).

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« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2014, 05:36:11 PM »

I'm really sorry, TMT. So painful: unthinkable. I continue to be in a state of shock--like it never even happened.
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« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2014, 05:43:51 PM »

My dying r/s finally expired when she admitted huge debts and was half way to accepting she has a disorder.

Good  riddance, I just wish she wasn't so good looking. Hope she gets ugly.
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« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2014, 01:34:41 AM »

Wow toomanytears, that happened to me too.

Hadn't seen mine for a year but when I did, he started right back up where he left off the last time I saw him! Full rage, blaming, word salad, total projection and complete  crazy talk.

You said "It's hard to be the target of so much 'hate beyond reason'" and I can understand that. But on that day I realized that I would rather him hate me, than him be in my life.

I know the smear campaign is rough to deal with, but anyone who listens to them are actually being bullied into believing their lies. Mine could talk a blue streak when it came to convincing anyone of his SB. I know... .I lived with it.

We are darn lucky to be away from our mentally disturbed ex's, life is much more peaceful now.

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« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2014, 02:29:17 AM »

I never realised she was BPD until after we split up but I knew she had some major issues and when I started to try to help her and get across the idea that her behaviour was not normal the end came very quickly. For my last email I wanted to say, "I think you have BPD" I wanted to ask her what was the huge childhood trauma she had experienced, I wanted to ask her if she loved me like i loved her,  but in the end i just wrote this:

Dear $%&*#

I get the message that you don’t want any contact with me anymore so I just wanted to say good bye properly.

Thank you for an amazing 5 months together, I will always cherish the memory of the love you showered on me and the special times we shared. I will always look back on our time together as a very special period in my life.

I wish you all the best for your life. I hope it is filled with much happiness and many great achievements.

I really wish that we could be friends, we share so many passions.

You’ll always have a very special place in my heart.

With much love and best wishes
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« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2014, 12:01:35 PM »

Dear Bauie: beautiful letter and thank you for sharing. I have wanted to write something similar. But in my case; I want to write it but want to write much more. If/when I do communicate with him, I must remember that anything I write can and will be used against me. Also, I have to watch myself that I am neither soliciting or expecting a reciprocal response. As a people pleaser, I recognize that writing this would reignite my own fantasy about what was, what is, and what will be. I'm beginning to see how important NC is for me. Take care... .
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« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2014, 12:49:11 PM »

Dear Bauie: beautiful letter and thank you for sharing. I have wanted to write something similar. But in my case; I want to write it but want to write much more. If/when I do communicate with him, I must remember that anything I write can and will be used against me. Also, I have to watch myself that I am neither soliciting or expecting a reciprocal response. As a people pleaser, I recognize that writing this would reignite my own fantasy about what was, what is, and what will be. I'm beginning to see how important NC is for me. Take care... .

All the things we want to say to them... .we think we simply fail to communicate. But that is not the issue at all. They are not constructed to receive the message. We are trying to communicate complexity of emotion and perspectives that they are not familiar with. Shouting louder and making ourselves clearer will not help.

Most likely some of the things we say must appear as pompous nonsense made up to make them feel stupid and possibly that's why they grasp for something to throw back at us. At least something?

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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2014, 02:01:01 PM »

I echo that. Thanks AJJ for sharing all that. I'm heading for my second recycle in 4 years (after a 14 year marriage), and she's appealing to all that attracted me in the first place, idolising me, giving me that perfect mirror of myself.

Your sharing of the basics of this has me second guessing whether I can handle another recycle.

Any tips for someone contemplating that, long and lonely journey?

I'm also considering my three children 5, 10 and 13, who have been subjected to this stuff and who have varying numbers of formative years left to go.

BTW, In January when we separated, I told her "I understood the game and that it was up", and she gave me that terrified look. After reading your post, I realise that must have caused her excruciating pain. 7 months of raging, public humiliation and vitriol ensued, until I just actually started being really blunt and divorced myself from anything requiring change of her. It seems she responds well to being told bluntly stop behaving like a child.

My thinking has switched from how can I diagnose/fix her, to accepting her for who she is and that she will never change, and re-developing my own life (which has been neglected)

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« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2014, 04:48:13 PM »

Wow toomanytears, that happened to me too.

Hadn't seen mine for a year but when I did, he started right back up where he left off the last time I saw him! Full rage, blaming, word salad, total projection and complete  crazy talk.

You said "It's hard to be the target of so much 'hate beyond reason'" and I can understand that. But on that day I realized that I would rather him hate me, than him be in my life.

I know the smear campaign is rough to deal with, but anyone who listens to them are actually being bullied into believing their lies. Mine could talk a blue streak when it came to convincing anyone of his SB. I know... .I lived with it.

We are darn lucky to be away from our mentally disturbed ex's, life is much more peaceful now.

Thanks letmeout - good to know you went through a similar thing. I am still very vulnerable to the push pull - after we met he sent a raging email accusing me of harassment, then came one with kisses at the bottom. I started to feel the pull almost instantaneously and only just stopped myself from sending a forgiving, loving reply. I have to stick to no contact.
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« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2014, 05:58:22 PM »

Yep, it is imperative that you never forget that no contact is the ONLY way out.

It gets easy as goes by, and time does fly by!
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« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2014, 11:43:03 PM »

Dear Bauie: beautiful letter and thank you for sharing. I have wanted to write something similar. But in my case; I want to write it but want to write much more. If/when I do communicate with him, I must remember that anything I write can and will be used against me. Also, I have to watch myself that I am neither soliciting or expecting a reciprocal response. As a people pleaser, I recognize that writing this would reignite my own fantasy about what was, what is, and what will be. I'm beginning to see how important NC is for me. Take care... .

All the things we want to say to them... .we think we simply fail to communicate. But that is not the issue at all. They are not constructed to receive the message. We are trying to communicate complexity of emotion and perspectives that they are not familiar with. Shouting louder and making ourselves clearer will not help.

Most likely some of the things we say must appear as pompous nonsense made up to make them feel stupid and possibly that's why they grasp for something to throw back at us. At least something?

It truly kills me inside that I too need to consider anything I put in writing to my ex as he too "can and will use it against me".  But it's absolutely right on that our attempts to express emotions can and do often make them feel terrible and give amunition to throw back at  us despite its best intentions. 

Over and over I have learned that NC really is the only way out... .  such a painful lesson.
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« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2014, 02:02:48 PM »

Aussie,

Wow thank you so much for your way of posting explanation.I am learning so much and so fast. This is a great help for me to heal and go forward in my life. It's not yet a month since I broke up with my BPDbf. My stress level has come down so much since it turned nc 7 days ago. I am on my way to recovery. I feel after learning what you wrote that my anger has turned to compassion. I would not return to such horrible abuse, but now I am better equipped with education and so much knowledge of what the hell was going on. I could not understand so many things that I now understand through these threads. It's amazing, a lot of work and hours poured into here, but it is how I will heal myself and now be equipped to see this behavior from early signs and red flags.

Thank you so much again.

Yes sometimes I feel like he should be punished for the torture I allowed him to bring into my life, but in the end that would only make me feel bad about myself. He is sick, just diagnosed about two weeks ago. I bailed before we knew what it was because I was finally pushed to the edge of the cliff and fell off. I am now quickly digging myself back to becoming me again, taking care of me and having fun again. It is hard to go back to all of the places I took him and be around all my peeps and everybody asking where he is, but I have to stand tall and do it!
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