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Author Topic: Do pwBPD know when we are onto them?  (Read 7529 times)
myself
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« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2014, 09:18:29 PM »

My ex knows. She told me a few stories of when other exes were onto her (tip of the iceberg anyone?), and I let her know at the end that I was, too. I'm sure it's what keeps her from contacting me more often. On the run.
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toomanytears
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« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2014, 10:46:33 PM »

AussieJJ

Thank you for your informative post.  I am trying not to take it personally that you believe (?) that my email to the expwBPD was abuse.

In my defence this was not an out of the blue, trying to separate the pwBPD from his new toy, email.

We had recycled and the day he left my house I found his other toys face book page and on it was their wedding photo.  He had married her when we were still in relationship although not intimate.  He was trying to get back with me before and he married the new toy.

Try as I might to have empathy for him I sent the email to try and cauterise my own pain and let him know I understood how he operates now.

I see from your post that it probable not the best action to take, but then I am not at my best at the moment either.

I will talk to my T today when I see her.

This interaction ( I will no longer call it a relationship), has caused me great distress but I have learnt a lot from the whole nasty experience.

To quote "2010"

"In the beginning it felt almost holy, like I had finally come alive and found someone shared the earth who understood me.  But then I realised that this was only mirroring, and a ritualised, systemic, fraudulent manipulation"

I now agree that I could have done better than by sending that email.  I cannot bear to think of myself as an abuser.

I like to think I am a good person, which is probable the biggest trait required by pwBPD to get the attachment fix that they require.

Hi there

I've had communications with my stbx that I'm not proud about but cripes I've been treading on eggshells for so many years I can forgive myself for slipping up occasionally. But the best antidote  for me is NC. Each time we interact it's a set back... .
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« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2014, 02:40:49 PM »

I have called my ex a BPD in 2012, so she knew what i thought in my head. plus, many times i feel she would leave me because i knew every cell of her body. i knew every thought that was going in her head and why. she couldn't lie to me because i would call her out. she would wear a million masks in front of others, but in front of me she couldn't. and that probably would stress her out too. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). a lot of times i felt she would come back to me because i am the only person in front of whom she didnt have to act or put on an appearance. but a lot of times she would run away because of the same reason. i used to have a joke that i have a phd in her. haha.
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letmeout
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« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2014, 05:41:08 PM »

When they know we are onto them, they know that they have to find someone easier to manipulate.
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« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2014, 09:20:43 PM »

When they know we are onto them, they know that they have to find someone easier to manipulate.

That is what prompted me to start this post.  After sending the pwBPD an email telling him I now know who and what he is about and I wanted no more contact,  is he still likely to  contact me or move on to the next object.

Guess only time will tell.  I will just have to keep my own boundaries and move on with my life.
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« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2014, 11:02:59 PM »

I dont believe being involved with a person with BPD is having a relationship.  You can not have a relationship with these people. They are incapable of it. They are mentally ill.   This is the true reality. 

       I dont think it matters how hard you try or how much you think you know what you are doing with them. It will never be a two way relationship.  and to indicate you are getting your needs met from them because you seem to know exactly how they tick is denial. Everything is abuse to them. Also I understand they are very sensitive,  but I am too,  probably just as much or even more so. I just deal with my feelings in a more healthier rational way.

                         You may as well put on a white jump suit and be an orderly with no pay check. To claim that nons are abusing them for trying to protect ourselves is wrong, it is their perception of being abused and anything, a door mouse can trigger this.  They have no emphathy for us nons.  They cant do it.  Its not their fault but its not ours either. Whose to say which action a non takes is right or wrong, it depends on the situation and BPD. No one knows the dynamics of what is going on then the ones who are in it.
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« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2014, 12:17:10 AM »

A pwBPD has empathy - it's an emotional based disorder. Sociopaths don't have empathy. It seems like they can have no empathy for someone else if they are emotional dysregulated. A characteristic for BPD is unstable relationships - they can't sustain an interpersonal relationship. The core wound of abandonment - trauma from their past  acting out in the here and now. It's not about you - it's about their core wound.

If the pwBPD isn't in therapy and unwilling to work on themselves, they are looking to be parented - reliving trauma instead of confronting it. It's excruciatingly painful for them to face it - but they must. Or they repeat a dysfunctional cycle.  It's my choice if I choose to parent someone or not. Having said that, they are accountable for their actions - they are adults after all. It's better for the non to get out of the relationship if they're not helping themselves.
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Aussie JJ
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« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2014, 03:27:29 AM »

Mutt,

Yes Empathy but limited, remember black and white thinking.  To have empathy for someone who has wronged you is inconceivable to a pwBPD.  They are all bad and have hurt them, then the lack of empathy comes out big time.  Empathy is to put yourself in another's shoes and see how they 'feel'.  pwBPD do this through mirroring to an extent, this shouldn't be confused with empathy. 

From how to love someone with BPD book, there is an example of the author saying her husband was sick and telling a DBT group how hard it was at home at the moment doing all the cooking cleaning, how stressful it was for her.  The next week they all (all pwBPD in group) bought in food and what not so she didn't have to cook.  Now, were they showing empathy for her position or were they giving something up, no boundaries (by cooking a meal) to get a closer attachment to the therapist? 

You can say it's empathy or you can say its a insecure attachment style where they have to be validated as being good by cooking a meal for the therapist to ensure that the bond/attachment is strong and they are valued/good people in that persons eyes. 

Do you consider this empthy Mutt ?   
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Pingo
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« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2014, 11:22:40 AM »

When they know we are onto them, they know that they have to find someone easier to manipulate.

That is what prompted me to start this post.  After sending the pwBPD an email telling him I now know who and what he is about and I wanted no more contact,  is he still likely to  contact me or move on to the next object.

Guess only time will tell.  I will just have to keep my own boundaries and move on with my life.

I wrote mine an email after I found out he had been keeping a big secret, had lied to me while we were still together.  Although I didn't specify what I knew or who told me, I let him know I now realise all the suspicion, paranoia, etc that he showed me was actually him projecting his own untrustworthiness.  I expected to hear back from him with some bs story of denial but nope, not a word.  It's been a month and nothing.  Is this because he knows I am on to him or is it because he is already with my replacement and doesn't need to engage?  Maybe I'll never know.

Mutt, mine was not capable of showing empathy most of the time.  He used to love 'surprising' his family out east by just showing up and he expected them to be thrilled about it yet they weren't because they had their own lives and his 'surprise' was a disruption to their lives.  They asked him to stop and let them know when he was coming, that he was always welcome but please let them know.  Well, you'd think they had shot his dog or something.  He was so upset about this.  I tried over and over until I was blue in the face to explain to him what it is like from their point of view, using myself as an example of how I wouldn't like my brother just showing up unannounced and why.  But there was absolutely no getting through to him.  He was a victim and that was all he was going to see.  So many other frustrating examples of this same behaviour. 
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hergestridge
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« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2014, 01:22:14 PM »

I never meant to be "onto" my exwife, but I once I befriended the idea that she was BPD all pieces fell into place. I suggested it to her and I was met with resistance because she did not like the idea.

But as I learnt more about BPD I started to discuss her life and her problems (and OUR problems for that matter) from a BPD perspective. It was as if I had "cracked the code" and she showed her real self.

She was really happy to confess and talk about herself, but it when it was time to conclude and when I asked what we could do to change the situation she was not to so keen to discuss anymore. She was back into projection mode or something...

I followed her to doctors and therapists who had labeled her "bipolar", and I told them they were wrong in their choice of diagnosis. My wife had mislead them. I told them (as nicely as I could) to re-consider BPD.

Eventually they did, and the day she got the BPD diagnosis she broke up with me after 20 years. She told me she was not the person I thought she was, but that she didn't want to talk about it.

Strangely, she still didn't know anything about BPD because she mentioned that she got a "borderline" diagnosis because that's what you get when the doctor's can't decide between two other diagnoses (!).

Still, she knew she had been diagnosed with a personality disorder and she obviously felt a great deal of shame about it. She knows that medication doesn't help and that that she has to work very hard in therapy to get results (something that she has mentioned to me that she is not prepared to do).

When she has that, she doesn't want to live with me anymore.

It worked better when we pretended the disorder wasn't there. Drag it out of the dark and it just doesn't work.

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RisingSun
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« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2014, 01:38:53 PM »

I called my uBPD/NPD stbxw out on her abusive behavior and demanded couples therapy after one of her more extreme rage fits.

It only took four months of therapy for her to find another man and divorce me.

I'm sure they all respond in unique ways when called out, but one thing stands out as consistent. They want to hide from the facts and

will do anything to remain unaccountable for their abusive behavior. When in doubt, rage, project, blame shift and run for the hills.

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letmeout
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« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2014, 11:12:04 PM »

I'm sure they all respond in unique ways when called out, but one thing stands out as consistent. They want to hide from the facts and will do anything to remain unaccountable for their abusive behavior. When in doubt, rage, project, blame shift and run for the hills.

That seems to sum it up!
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Take2
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2014, 09:55:48 AM »

I'm sure they all respond in unique ways when called out, but one thing stands out as consistent. They want to hide from the facts and will do anything to remain unaccountable for their abusive behavior. When in doubt, rage, project, blame shift and run for the hills.

That seems to sum it up!

TOTALLY
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« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2014, 11:59:31 AM »

Whenever my exbfBPD was the slightest bit "uncomfortable," the accusations started. I am considered direct and confrontational (my false self, ha ha) so I never was the best "supply" for pwBPD--except for being a caretaker, people pleaser, rescuer type codependent. Oh yeah, and a dang good Sugar Mommy. So he "endured" me for a year, I suppose, until he could get back on his feet. But there was only the most brief honeymoon period before I started calling him out on his "stuff"--took about 30 days before I knew it was BPD. I don't find labels useful (DSM, etc.) but they certainly give us a baseline and suggested treatment. I probably only used the term "borderline" once or twice and always when urging him to get into treatment for himself, our relationship, and for his children. So, he knew I was "onto him" very quickly, but as long as the money was flowing, and his bottom was getting wiped regularly by Sugar Mommy; he would try to hold back his resentment and disdain. What he couldn't hold back was his vitriole about my children, my business partner (male) and my ex husband. Occasionally, others made him jealous--but ANYONE who could conceivably threaten his Sugar Mommy life raft. Last night, after one month of SUDDEN silent treatment, failure to repay anything that he owes me; and stealing my voucher for a night at the beach; my girlfriend said, I think you're right, Lovey, he didn't abandon you for another woman--he never left the true love of his life: MONEY!
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toomanytears
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« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2014, 04:22:39 PM »

I'm sure they all respond in unique ways when called out, but one thing stands out as consistent. They want to hide from the facts and will do anything to remain unaccountable for their abusive behavior. When in doubt, rage, project, blame shift and run for the hills.

That seems to sum it up!

TOTALLY

Yup I'm with you on this. In order to be unaccountable, my exBPDh has completely reinvented himself with brand new friends, a new found religion (Quaker) a new girl friend, and very likely a new family. This is after over 30 years together and many mutual friends. When I met him by chance, a week or so ago, the first time in 8 months, rage, projection and blame shift came out within minutes in an angry monologue directed towards me. It's hard to be the target of so much  'hate beyond reason' (to quote Thomas Sydenham).

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Loveofhislife
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« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2014, 05:36:11 PM »

I'm really sorry, TMT. So painful: unthinkable. I continue to be in a state of shock--like it never even happened.
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« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2014, 05:43:51 PM »

My dying r/s finally expired when she admitted huge debts and was half way to accepting she has a disorder.

Good  riddance, I just wish she wasn't so good looking. Hope she gets ugly.
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letmeout
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« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2014, 01:34:41 AM »

Wow toomanytears, that happened to me too.

Hadn't seen mine for a year but when I did, he started right back up where he left off the last time I saw him! Full rage, blaming, word salad, total projection and complete  crazy talk.

You said "It's hard to be the target of so much 'hate beyond reason'" and I can understand that. But on that day I realized that I would rather him hate me, than him be in my life.

I know the smear campaign is rough to deal with, but anyone who listens to them are actually being bullied into believing their lies. Mine could talk a blue streak when it came to convincing anyone of his SB. I know... .I lived with it.

We are darn lucky to be away from our mentally disturbed ex's, life is much more peaceful now.

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« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2014, 02:29:17 AM »

I never realised she was BPD until after we split up but I knew she had some major issues and when I started to try to help her and get across the idea that her behaviour was not normal the end came very quickly. For my last email I wanted to say, "I think you have BPD" I wanted to ask her what was the huge childhood trauma she had experienced, I wanted to ask her if she loved me like i loved her,  but in the end i just wrote this:

Dear $%&*#

I get the message that you don’t want any contact with me anymore so I just wanted to say good bye properly.

Thank you for an amazing 5 months together, I will always cherish the memory of the love you showered on me and the special times we shared. I will always look back on our time together as a very special period in my life.

I wish you all the best for your life. I hope it is filled with much happiness and many great achievements.

I really wish that we could be friends, we share so many passions.

You’ll always have a very special place in my heart.

With much love and best wishes
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Loveofhislife
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« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2014, 12:01:35 PM »

Dear Bauie: beautiful letter and thank you for sharing. I have wanted to write something similar. But in my case; I want to write it but want to write much more. If/when I do communicate with him, I must remember that anything I write can and will be used against me. Also, I have to watch myself that I am neither soliciting or expecting a reciprocal response. As a people pleaser, I recognize that writing this would reignite my own fantasy about what was, what is, and what will be. I'm beginning to see how important NC is for me. Take care... .
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« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2014, 12:49:11 PM »

Dear Bauie: beautiful letter and thank you for sharing. I have wanted to write something similar. But in my case; I want to write it but want to write much more. If/when I do communicate with him, I must remember that anything I write can and will be used against me. Also, I have to watch myself that I am neither soliciting or expecting a reciprocal response. As a people pleaser, I recognize that writing this would reignite my own fantasy about what was, what is, and what will be. I'm beginning to see how important NC is for me. Take care... .

All the things we want to say to them... .we think we simply fail to communicate. But that is not the issue at all. They are not constructed to receive the message. We are trying to communicate complexity of emotion and perspectives that they are not familiar with. Shouting louder and making ourselves clearer will not help.

Most likely some of the things we say must appear as pompous nonsense made up to make them feel stupid and possibly that's why they grasp for something to throw back at us. At least something?

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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2014, 02:01:01 PM »

I echo that. Thanks AJJ for sharing all that. I'm heading for my second recycle in 4 years (after a 14 year marriage), and she's appealing to all that attracted me in the first place, idolising me, giving me that perfect mirror of myself.

Your sharing of the basics of this has me second guessing whether I can handle another recycle.

Any tips for someone contemplating that, long and lonely journey?

I'm also considering my three children 5, 10 and 13, who have been subjected to this stuff and who have varying numbers of formative years left to go.

BTW, In January when we separated, I told her "I understood the game and that it was up", and she gave me that terrified look. After reading your post, I realise that must have caused her excruciating pain. 7 months of raging, public humiliation and vitriol ensued, until I just actually started being really blunt and divorced myself from anything requiring change of her. It seems she responds well to being told bluntly stop behaving like a child.

My thinking has switched from how can I diagnose/fix her, to accepting her for who she is and that she will never change, and re-developing my own life (which has been neglected)

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toomanytears
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« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2014, 04:48:13 PM »

Wow toomanytears, that happened to me too.

Hadn't seen mine for a year but when I did, he started right back up where he left off the last time I saw him! Full rage, blaming, word salad, total projection and complete  crazy talk.

You said "It's hard to be the target of so much 'hate beyond reason'" and I can understand that. But on that day I realized that I would rather him hate me, than him be in my life.

I know the smear campaign is rough to deal with, but anyone who listens to them are actually being bullied into believing their lies. Mine could talk a blue streak when it came to convincing anyone of his SB. I know... .I lived with it.

We are darn lucky to be away from our mentally disturbed ex's, life is much more peaceful now.

Thanks letmeout - good to know you went through a similar thing. I am still very vulnerable to the push pull - after we met he sent a raging email accusing me of harassment, then came one with kisses at the bottom. I started to feel the pull almost instantaneously and only just stopped myself from sending a forgiving, loving reply. I have to stick to no contact.
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letmeout
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« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2014, 05:58:22 PM »

Yep, it is imperative that you never forget that no contact is the ONLY way out.

It gets easy as goes by, and time does fly by!
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Take2
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« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2014, 11:43:03 PM »

Dear Bauie: beautiful letter and thank you for sharing. I have wanted to write something similar. But in my case; I want to write it but want to write much more. If/when I do communicate with him, I must remember that anything I write can and will be used against me. Also, I have to watch myself that I am neither soliciting or expecting a reciprocal response. As a people pleaser, I recognize that writing this would reignite my own fantasy about what was, what is, and what will be. I'm beginning to see how important NC is for me. Take care... .

All the things we want to say to them... .we think we simply fail to communicate. But that is not the issue at all. They are not constructed to receive the message. We are trying to communicate complexity of emotion and perspectives that they are not familiar with. Shouting louder and making ourselves clearer will not help.

Most likely some of the things we say must appear as pompous nonsense made up to make them feel stupid and possibly that's why they grasp for something to throw back at us. At least something?

It truly kills me inside that I too need to consider anything I put in writing to my ex as he too "can and will use it against me".  But it's absolutely right on that our attempts to express emotions can and do often make them feel terrible and give amunition to throw back at  us despite its best intentions. 

Over and over I have learned that NC really is the only way out... .  such a painful lesson.
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« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2014, 02:02:48 PM »

Aussie,

Wow thank you so much for your way of posting explanation.I am learning so much and so fast. This is a great help for me to heal and go forward in my life. It's not yet a month since I broke up with my BPDbf. My stress level has come down so much since it turned nc 7 days ago. I am on my way to recovery. I feel after learning what you wrote that my anger has turned to compassion. I would not return to such horrible abuse, but now I am better equipped with education and so much knowledge of what the hell was going on. I could not understand so many things that I now understand through these threads. It's amazing, a lot of work and hours poured into here, but it is how I will heal myself and now be equipped to see this behavior from early signs and red flags.

Thank you so much again.

Yes sometimes I feel like he should be punished for the torture I allowed him to bring into my life, but in the end that would only make me feel bad about myself. He is sick, just diagnosed about two weeks ago. I bailed before we knew what it was because I was finally pushed to the edge of the cliff and fell off. I am now quickly digging myself back to becoming me again, taking care of me and having fun again. It is hard to go back to all of the places I took him and be around all my peeps and everybody asking where he is, but I have to stand tall and do it!
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