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Author Topic: I feel like she killed "the nice guy" in me  (Read 529 times)
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2014, 10:15:50 AM »

What about posting the actual article?

If not then if you should google how narcissists and borderlines attract each other.

There is some fascinating reading. Be careful not to self diagnose as we all have narcissistic traits but some have more of a cluster than others.

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« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2014, 10:25:20 AM »

I became a pretty hardcore narcissist from my relationship. I felt so low that I'd do stuff like spend hours thinking and reading about quantum physics or philosophical matters and trying to solve the nature of reality. Even as a small child I'd do this, and I know now it was my narcissism. However, I can admit my mistakes, I'm just emotionally thin skinned. I think that's the main difference from actually being a narcissist and just having traits. If you can admit your mistakes easily, then you're not an actual narcissist. Also true narcissists are extroverts who need narcissistic supply. I'm an introvert who gets his supply from his own thoughts. Aka my delusions of grandeur. :P
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« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2014, 06:59:50 PM »

Good. Let that good guy die. He wasn't real anyway and it was too one-sided. Better to not be too good or too bad and stay in the center. That's what wholeness is. I want this too.

Best of luck
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« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2014, 07:49:43 PM »

Yes, I can relate and I am very happy about it.

I have learnt that there is a difference between kindness and weakness, and that's the biggest lesson I took from this experience. I now have boundaries and I don't let people define my worth, abuse me or take advantage of me. I am now my first priority in life and am learning to love me and take care of me. My relationship with other people is more genuine now and I am a much healthier happier person. 

Caramel, you are amazing and your statement " there is a difference between kindness and weakness" is most appreciated.  Exactly how I feel now. Just did not have the words 
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« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2014, 11:13:44 PM »

The fact that we are here together -- trying to heal and help each other -- is a sign that we remain caring and able to empathize.  Yet, it's so much easier to empathize with others than to put a hand on our own hearts and say, "it's going to be okay... .I care about your suffering."

My experience did change me.  I ended up letting go of much more than my ex-girlfriend.   I also let go of the thinking that I was damaged somehow.   I let myself become more human than I ever let myself be in the past.   Instead of "fixing" anything, I just sat with it, and I found something more core within me than I ever knew existed.

This is beautifully put and what I feel as well.  Truthfully, I think the last 2 months I have been kinder and more loving to myself than I have ever before in going through this tremendous grief.  I never understood the concept of self love, always thought I was loving myself but clearly one does not allow someone to abuse them if they are loving themselves.  This grief has cracked me open and I have faced the pain instead of trying to escape from it.  So for this I am thankful.  I'm not going to lose the 'nice' person I am.  He took so much from me but he can't take that away from me.
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« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2014, 11:36:04 PM »

You know everybody, my T told me there's nothing wrong with being a rescuer, he said, "I'm a rescuer."  It's why he does what he does, having grown up in an alcoholic household. He's 25 years strong on what seems to be a happy marriage. His wife was lost when she was younger, but found her strength around the time they met.

It may be why many of us do what we do for a living. It may be why we generally tend to be kind and helpful people. Do a lot of us need to work on our boundaries and FOO issues? Most likely. But let's not let the projected pain in the world kill the best parts of us. The world will be lesser, and so will we.
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« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2014, 10:06:06 AM »

The fact that we are here together -- trying to heal and help each other -- is a sign that we remain caring and able to empathize.  Yet, it's so much easier to empathize with others than to put a hand on our own hearts and say, "it's going to be okay... .I care about your suffering."

My experience did change me.  I ended up letting go of much more than my ex-girlfriend.   I also let go of the thinking that I was damaged somehow.   I let myself become more human than I ever let myself be in the past.   Instead of "fixing" anything, I just sat with it, and I found something more core within me than I ever knew existed.

This is beautifully put and what I feel as well.  Truthfully, I think the last 2 months I have been kinder and more loving to myself than I have ever before in going through this tremendous grief.  I never understood the concept of self love, always thought I was loving myself but clearly one does not allow someone to abuse them if they are loving themselves.  This grief has cracked me open and I have faced the pain instead of trying to escape from it.  So for this I am thankful.  I'm not going to lose the 'nice' person I am.  He took so much from me but he can't take that away from me.

I love this very much.  I believe I have to learn this lesson... .I'm slowly realizing that I have been subconsciously "judging my own performance" for years and years... .probably from childhood... .  I heard my "self speech" the other day, criticizing myself for something I was doing and it struck me how I believe I have been condemning myself daily, hourly, forever... .  Wow.  What a revelation.  Lots of work to do to correct this one, I'm sure... .Thank you for your assistance in opening my eyes to this... . 
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« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2014, 10:08:02 AM »

... .continued... .

Anyone have any suggestions on silencing the condemning inner voice of self?  I think I have been "not a nice person" to myself all these years... .hence, I find myself in an abusive situation... .  Can anyone relate?
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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2014, 06:36:01 PM »

While many of us may turn colder after a BPD relationship, I have this funny shift in my life.

I am an empath and introvegent in nature. My mother has BPD traits and she always put her emotions on me, never to my elder sister. I never argue with my mother and not express any of my feelings in the family, and Not feeling anything bad with it, I was willing to, I have a strong family value. At school there was this close friend, she was stronger in a sense, and we sometimes tease a few selected classmates who we toy a little, just some kind of kids thing never too much. I guess it was the way I could express my feelings.

Throughout my teenager and until few years ago, I became much less compassion on people, except my family and two really close friends. I felt I was clever, and being an empath have this intuition to sense who is good or bad, who is clever who is not. Although I never really taken advantage on the weak and less clever people, I internally do look them down. A little bit of narcisstic way of thinking, just to compensate my low self esteem as I didnt recieve enough love from family. I had a successful business which I worked hard, sacrifice alot of social life, surpass alot of my feelings n emotions, to build it myself. I guard myself very well not allow other people to take advantage, I had little compassion to people, and saw kind people are somehow weak not adapt in society.

Then things changed in 2006, when I met my first lover (in an real official relationship sense). She was such a decent person, much compassion, and a wise empath. She care and deliver love to her friends and me, without crossing the boundary or absorb negative energy from them. First time in my life to learn that a person can be both compassion, wise, and not having to burden other people emotions (unlike what I did in family which I saw kind = burden their problems). It made me felt so good. Since then I revert back to my my nature, started to be more open, more compassion to others.

This period doesnt last long. In late 2006, I started a new relationship with another girl who I now highly suspect is a BPD (I hate to label her this but things she did match well with BPD category). I spent three years which her, and experienced the usual things you guys know. Idealization (2 years) she validate me, then towards the end of relationship she started to date another and did alot of bad mouth behind my back to this new date and her close friends. After officially broke up, the usual drama bits and the one hurt me most was triangulation. I went NC for a year, then she contact me again last year. In the last year on and off we keep a bit of limited contact. I also have some co-dependency issues.

After I broke up with her, I was so down and so shock of the drama. The guilt either I place on myself or she force into me, made me feel bad and unworthly. I once again very compassion and caring to others, as if I am compensating something lose in myself.

While I was taking time to recover and eager for a brand new start, take on a new relationship, I had interaction with two girls, one is borderline another is sociopath. I didnt know much about personality at that time but sense something wasnt quite right with these two people. Nevertheless my curiosity lead me to venture deeper. On reflection now, I think the borderline/sociopathic tendency shown on these two girls share something similar with my ex. It was as if I wanted to "fix" these two girls or find closeness similar to my ex. I was very kind to them despite their funny acts. I blame myself of being such a fool. I was intelligent and well guard myself from teen to 30, why I allow myself to fall into such traps. Suppose if there are areas that are not fully recovered you tend to draw into similar people.

Now after all these chaos, I am depressed and loss my business. Sitting home for months not doing anything. I again become a little paranoid and sensitive when whoever say or do something which share some similarity with the three girls, it made me cautious. I see many borderline/sociopath in society now. Can be my sister, sister in law, colleague, or a friend. Todays society is like a power game, structured in a way where the disordered people can more easily navigate through the loopholes and take advantage of other people without breaking the law.

I am hoping soon I can return to the open minded, positive, honest, genuine, compassion and successful me. I hope.

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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2014, 06:46:04 PM »

I become so angry I want to take revenge. If I ever encounter a bad borderline / sociopath, I will beat them in their own game.
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« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2014, 07:20:16 PM »

SC91 I sort of know where you are coming from with the revenge feeling. I hate feeling bitter and I am not a person to hold grudges but I am just so angry.

I feel mostly like my exposure to her has just made me a much more cynical, wary and suspicious person; and very emotionally unavailable and less open to new relationships. I've tried to date again in this time for instance but it's very hard, I now over analyse everyone and walk away from dates diagnosing them with everything under the sun. I just assume now that people are out to get me, cause me pain and they all have a hidden agenda.

It's awful. I feel like I will never meet anyone new with this outlook but I just feel like my mind is trying hard to keep me safe and alive.
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« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2014, 07:52:15 PM »

hate breeds hate. abuse breeds more abuse. anxiety shared, causes more anxiety in others.

consider this--a pwBPD acts the way they do often times because someone else abused, neglected or abandoned them. they haven't dealt with this so then they identify with the abuser and begin to abuse others themselves. that's why they abuse us. it's a cycle, someone passed the baton of abuse onto them and they go around and hit everyone else they can on the head with it. because abuse breeds more abuse.

now onto us, we were abused. our trust was broken by someone wBPD -- but we have awareness, we have a choice. we have a choice to not abuse others just because we were abused. we need to stop the cycle.

if anyone here wishes their ex's would stop abusing people, then we also have to make the choice to heal and not allow ourselves to abuse others with our trust which has been broken. it's normal to go through an adjustment phase after being betrayed. to question others' motives, etc. however at some point we have to heal and realize when we are projecting our own issues onto others, take responsibility for this to change. otherwise, we're doing the same thing that a pwBPD is doing--treating others bad because of our own unresolved issues.

take time to heal, but break the cycle.

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« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2014, 08:06:11 PM »

I don't feel that she killed the "nice guy" in me. I am still a generous and caring person to my friends and family. What has changed is my love and care for her. That will never come back again.
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« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2014, 08:22:31 PM »

The more I think about this thread, I see how unnecessary all of this is.

I see plenty of nice people who are married to nice people.  Nice, even keeled people who deeply care about one another.

We don't need to change because we are nice.

I have been researching the web on how to build physical strength, emotional strength and so on.

One quote I came across yesterday was that emotionally strong people know who to keep out of their lives.

It's okay to be nice, we just need to get in tune with our gut and weed out the people we should not let into our lives.

If we meet a man or woman who vilifies all their ex's, or men and women in general, that's a red flag.

Oh, and it said that emotionally strong people don't need excitement or to be the center of attention.  2 more good qualities to look for in people, and make a note to avoid people who behave in the opposite manner.
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« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2014, 10:39:39 PM »

I don't feel that she killed the "nice guy" in me. I am still a generous and caring person to my friends and family. What has changed is my love and care for her. That will never come back again.

I feel the same way... .but damn... .was it a long road to get there.
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« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2014, 10:44:28 AM »

The more I think about this thread, I see how unnecessary all of this is.

I see plenty of nice people who are married to nice people.  Nice, even keeled people who deeply care about one another.

We don't need to change because we are nice.

I have been researching the web on how to build physical strength, emotional strength and so on.

One quote I came across yesterday was that emotionally strong people know who to keep out of their lives.

It's okay to be nice, we just need to get in tune with our gut and weed out the people we should not let into our lives.

If we meet a man or woman who vilifies all their ex's, or men and women in general, that's a red flag.

Oh, and it said that emotionally strong people don't need excitement or to be the center of attention.  2 more good qualities to look for in people, and make a note to avoid people who behave in the opposite manner.

I like this... .thank you for sharing!  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2014, 01:11:02 PM »

A great thread indeed.  Thanks to many for the wonderful insight.  I have been struggling with this concept myself, and certainly think that I have been taken advantage of and easily manipulated by a lot of people in my life.  I have always identified as being a nice guy but I have often felt taken advantage of.  I realize now that boundaries and self worth are the defense to that.  I have always had self confidence, but lacked enough self-worth, and I have gotten the two confused.  The lack of self worth goes back to FOO issues that I am trying to grapple with currently with my personal, internal work. 

I agree, girls often are attracted to the "bad guy" and I think it is really the sense of adventure and the confidence that is the attraction.  If they were offered confidence, adventure, passion and someone who knows how to be empathic and sensitive but who is also a whole person that would be the best of both worlds.  Also, being good looking and rich doesn't hurt... .I have so much to work on!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I have always said that I would rather go through life giving mankind the benefit of the doubt and getting burned occasionally, than to live as a bitter skeptic.   I still believe this as I think that life presents us with opportunities that you can only take if you have a healthy amount of trust.  I don't want to be the "nice guy" stuck in the "Friend-zone" or the nice guy that gets taken advantage of in business dealings. 

It is my goal to find the balance of being that nice empathetic, strong man that is confident, full of self esteem but not full of himself, who is giving but knows his boundaries and how to defend them. 

The codependent nice guy, who is a rescuer/fixer and who puts other's needs, wants, opinions, and core values over his own and who looks into the eyes of others to find his own self worth... .that's the "nice guy" who I HOPE she killed.  That guy was just a 37 year old cocoon waiting for BPD to finally break him down, so the nice MAN can emerge and soar like an eagle!

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« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2014, 01:37:47 PM »

The codependent nice guy, who is a rescuer/fixer and who puts other's needs, wants, opinions, and core values over his own and who looks into the eyes of others to find his own self worth... .that's the "nice guy" who I HOPE she killed.  That guy was just a 37 year old cocoon waiting for BPD to finally break him down, so the nice MAN can emerge and soar like an eagle!

That is how I feel exactly! 
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« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2014, 01:57:57 PM »

The codependent nice guy, who is a rescuer/fixer and who puts other's needs, wants, opinions, and core values over his own and who looks into the eyes of others to find his own self worth... .that's the "nice guy" who I HOPE she killed.  That guy was just a 37 year old cocoon waiting for BPD to finally break him down, so the nice MAN can emerge and soar like an eagle!

That is how I feel exactly! 

Ditto!
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« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2014, 02:57:51 PM »

A great thread indeed.  Thanks to many for the wonderful insight.  I have been struggling with this concept myself, and certainly think that I have been taken advantage of and easily manipulated by a lot of people in my life.  I have always identified as being a nice guy but I have often felt taken advantage of.  I realize now that boundaries and self worth are the defense to that.  I have always had self confidence, but lacked enough self-worth, and I have gotten the two confused.  The lack of self worth goes back to FOO issues that I am trying to grapple with currently with my personal, internal work. 

I agree, girls often are attracted to the "bad guy" and I think it is really the sense of adventure and the confidence that is the attraction.  If they were offered confidence, adventure, passion and someone who knows how to be empathic and sensitive but who is also a whole person that would be the best of both worlds.  Also, being good looking and rich doesn't hurt... .I have so much to work on!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I have always said that I would rather go through life giving mankind the benefit of the doubt and getting burned occasionally, than to live as a bitter skeptic.   I still believe this as I think that life presents us with opportunities that you can only take if you have a healthy amount of trust.  I don't want to be the "nice guy" stuck in the "Friend-zone" or the nice guy that gets taken advantage of in business dealings. 

It is my goal to find the balance of being that nice empathetic, strong man that is confident, full of self esteem but not full of himself, who is giving but knows his boundaries and how to defend them. 

The codependent nice guy, who is a rescuer/fixer and who puts other's needs, wants, opinions, and core values over his own and who looks into the eyes of others to find his own self worth... .that's the "nice guy" who I HOPE she killed.  That guy was just a 37 year old cocoon waiting for BPD to finally break him down, so the nice MAN can emerge and soar like an eagle!

I love this response Heartandsole. You are on the right path. Regarding the "nice guy" and "bad guy" paradigms--it's important to note that both of these way of relating to the world are faulty, and i think you are looking to define yourself in a balanced way incorporating both strength and vulnerability.

Here are a couple articles I've read recently that delve into this topic.

www.markmanson.net/power-in-vulnerability/

Excerpt
For instance, making yourself vulnerable doesn’t just mean being willing to share your fears or insecurities. It can mean putting yourself in a position where you can be rejected, saying a joke that may not be funny, asserting an opinion that may offend others, joining a table of people you don’t know, telling a woman that you like her and want to date her. All of these things require you to stick your neck out on the line emotionally in some way. You’re making yourself vulnerable when you do them.

In this way, vulnerability represents a form of power, a deep and subtle form of power. A man who’s able to make himself vulnerable is saying to the world, “I don’t care what you think of me; this is who I am, and I refuse to be anyone else.” He’s saying he’s not needy and that he’s high status.

www.markmanson.net/vulnerability-and-manipulative-women/

Excerpt
... .a Nice Guy is a man who subverts his own will and desires to get people to like him

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« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2014, 03:24:31 PM »

www.markmanson.net/vulnerability-and-manipulative-women/

Excerpt
... .a Nice Guy is a man who subverts his own will and desires to get people to like him


In this same vein, have you or anybody else read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A Glover?

I got about halfway though it (so I won't give it a  complete review--- I'll get back to it some time), but I thought what I had read was good. In an early chapter, he talks about Attachment Theory, and his comments could be applicable to people like a us, as well as our pwBPD. He spends time talking about the very thing you quite above. "Covert contracts" and the like.
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« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2014, 08:48:46 PM »

i haven't read the book Turkish but it does sound interesting. the perspective on Nice Guy-ness i think holds a lot of value. i'm not sure what 'covert contracts' entails, but it sounds as if it's describing how men can take on a 'nice guy' personality as a passive way to get what they want. i don't think there's anything wrong with going for what you desire, however i think as humans we tend to pick up when people's behaviors are in-congruent with their intentions. and sensing that there is a motive behind the behavior, insecurities are revealed in a person acting this way. i do think it's really about keeping your behavior in line with your intentions, and not being afraid to express your intentions that shows character. i'll check out that book sometime for sure.

also, you mentioned Attachment Theory which sounds interesting as well. i really loved the following book which breaks down attachment into 5 levels and discusses ways to let go depending on your level of attachment:

    Authentic Self

    Preference

    Identification

    Internalization

    Fanaticism

www.amazon.com/The-Five-Levels-Attachment-Toltec/dp/1938289080
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« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2014, 10:22:21 PM »

SC91 I sort of know where you are coming from with the revenge feeling. I hate feeling bitter and I am not a person to hold grudges but I am just so angry.

I feel mostly like my exposure to her has just made me a much more cynical, wary and suspicious person; and very emotionally unavailable and less open to new relationships. I've tried to date again in this time for instance but it's very hard, I now over analyse everyone and walk away from dates diagnosing them with everything under the sun. I just assume now that people are out to get me, cause me pain and they all have a hidden agenda.

It's awful. I feel like I will never meet anyone new with this outlook but I just feel like my mind is trying hard to keep me safe and alive.

Springle, I echo your sayings. I confuse myself such a mess. Being an empath, since very young, I have this intuit of sensing good vs bad in the first few meeting and in most cases I am correct, proven in the people later actions. But my this curiosity just keep digging into further, my rational mind just tells me to be more objective, my learning motivation of exposing the unknown just keep me jumping out of my intuit comfort zone, my good nature of giving people benefit of doubt just keep me spending more time on. All learning curve. I think one day when I gain more experience I will once again return to my intuit, with a more balanced view, that will guard me well without causing needless fear nor over analysing.

Trust that one's core value and personality will get back to the original status in the long term. It just takes time.
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