BPD vs FLEAS

[sparrowfarfrom home]

A friend who is learning about BPD asked about something written in the Walking on Eggshells workbook. It had to do with the fact that many children of parents also turn out to have BPD.

I know I had many BPD behaviors until I moved out and got clued into them and was able to work on them. Now I would say that I had a very bad case of Fleas.

Over the years I have continued to be plagued and hurt and vilified by the BPD's in my life, and I know I wasn't the one doing the vilifying, raging, blaming, silent treatments, distortion campaigns, etc. So for me , I think it was a case of Fleas. (There is also the possibility of BPD being a genetic/brain anomaly which may have to do with who develops BPD and who doesn't.)


So--- how does one distinguish between  BPD vs FLEAS?

[jmanvo2015]

Really good question.  Being new here and just learning about BPD and fleas, I'm wondering the same thing.  My T is telling me I don't have BPD, but I sure do see myself recognizing a lot of the same behaviors in myself now that I am understanding this mental illness better.

[clljhns]

sparrowfarfromhome,

I think the fact that you even ask the question is proof that you are not BPD, but have fleas.

I used to worry that I was crazy like my family. I was never prone to rages, but I was prone to running at the first site of trouble, and if cornered, would rage. Several times this happened, I didn't even remember what I had said. Scary. After working on the buried rage, I have times now when confronted with a frustrating situation, I am able to stay calm, or at the very least express my thoughts and feelings without yelling. I also don't ruminate over it for days. In the past, I would analyze everything a person said and did, and everything I said and did in a conversation or confrontation for days. I would lie awake at night thinking about it and criticizing myself over and over. I am free from this as well.

I don't know if this is true that many children of BPD parents have BPD also, but I do see these traits in three of my siblings. The constant chaos in their lives, the rages, the self-centeredness, and the inability to understand the other persons perspective. The key here is, none of them think they have a problem, they externalize their problems to others. So, there is no self-reflection, just deflection.

So I end this thread with the same statement that I began with. The fact that you ask the question is proof that you are not BPD.

Peace and blessings. 

[caughtnreleased]

Very good question.  I also frequently wonder if I'm not the problem in all these equations... .especially more recently, as I've been going through some tough times.  Frankly, perhaps what doesn't make a person BPD is that you actually work towards letting go of your anger... .I thought I'd processed a lot of anger... .but more and more keeps coming, in anger and sadness... .it feels never ending.  But I think processing these things is really what makes a big difference... .

[imataloss]

As I've learned more about BPD I've wondered the same thing about myself. I agree that it goes back to a sense of self-awareness. Because of effects of the illness. I doubt that a pwBPD would be asking themselves the question, reading and posting here to learn more about it, and working on themselves through therapy, reading books on the topic, etc. I think it's only natural that we're vigilant about it, having grown up with it and witnessed the harm and destruction it can cause. And it's to be expected that we have some Fleas that we need to work on shedding.

Having said all that, I do believe that BPD parents can produce BPD children. That point seems to be proven by the number of posts here by persons with a BPD parent AND a BPD sibling. Makes me kind of happy to be an only child! There seem to be an abundance of us here also.

Clljhns, I can definitely relate to lying awake, analyzing and ruminating about events of the day, especially about things that happened at the office during the day. And I continue to do it at times, especially after a confrontation or ugly scene with my uBPD mother. But I'm happy to say that those occasions have decreased significantly.

[caughtnreleased]

I've also posted elsewhere before that a psychiatrist friend of mine once told me that we all have BPD traits inside us: ie, under moments of stress, we are likely to revert to BPD mode (ie childhood mode).  The thing he said distinguished nons from BPD, is that nons are able to cope with those feelings and emotions, rather than act on them immediately since we are capable of seeing beyond our emotions.  A person with BPD isn,t able to do that, and to properly cope with their strong emotions... .so that leads to, um... .at the first disagreement with their SO they run off and sleep with someone else.  A non would be able to calm down from their anger and return to discuss the argument with their SO.  Our emotions do not define our entire world. They do for pwBPD.

[Skip]

I think the fact that you even ask the question is proof that you are not BPD, but have fleas.

This is a old wives tale. I've see it posted hundreds of times. Many, if not all, people with BPD question themselves.  There is a great deal of self doubt and shame with BPD.

The idea of fleas is also an old wives tale.  If we exhibit BPD thinking patterns they are no different than anyone's BPD thinking patterns.

Statistically, 55% of us growing up in a "BPD" household will inherit the same predisposition for the disorder the parent has.  And no one grows up in a highly dysfunctional family without having issues - just read all the literature on ACOA (adult children of alcoholics).

I might suggest there is no point in distinguishing between BPD and Fleas, rather, if we have any dysfunctional coping, we need to be self-aware and we need to work on it or get help.

[jmanvo2015]

I'm really glad you posted this info Skip because I think you're right.

My new T keeps assuring me I'm not BPD, but I think I am BPD in many ways and that she's wrong.  I look back on the way I manage interpersonal difficulties, conflict and stress and I act EXACTLY like my uBPDm.

Last week, on impulse and as the result of overwhelming emotion, I suddenly resigned from the board of an organization I'm very fortunate to be a part of where the people are like family to me.  I just got overwhelmed by a "perceived slight" from another when it was really something very harmless.  I am SO LUCKY that two women on the board understood I was overreacting and sent me such beautiful notes that I stayed and apologized and asked them to point out to me when I'm being way too sensitive for my own good.

I still feel ashamed and embarrassed about my emotional reaction to something so silly.  So, I'm using this story to illustrate that I agree with you.  I'm not really sure what FLEAS is either.  I just know that my mother taught me any BPD ways of behaving that are very destructive for me.

[sparrowfarfrom home]

I really appreciate each reasoned comment on this subject. Of course the term 'fleas' is just an expression as old as the hills, and is a type of truism  that can be trotted out for all types of situations, not just BPD.

 

People will still probably use the expression, so all the insights here can be helpful, especially about the  lack of self awareness and reciprocity in relationships on the part of the pwBPD.

Personality disorders are often disorders of relationships after all. I am fascinated by new research which links a particular  gene with BPD. Brain Mri's  are also different in a BPD brain.

So I guess I was wondering out loud about TRAITS vs DISORDER.  I guess the discussion will continue... .why some people can crawl out of the black hole of pain, and some cannot.




.

[hope2727]

I started therapy with a BPD specialist this morning and am scared that I will be labelled BPD. I know if I am its all the more reason to be there but it makes me sad.

In the past I have been prone to rages. Only occasionally and Usually over completely stupid things. I haven't really done it in years. I guess I either grew up and learned to regulate my emotions or I stopped placing myself in situations that had such high stress it led me to that point of no return.

I have also (long ago) been accused of black and white thinking. I guess I believe people are like me. When they disappoint me I am devastated. I am older now and realize that not everyone likes me and thats ok. I understand people are human and flawed and wonderful despite their flaws. SO maybe I grew up on that one too. I have cut people out of my life for various reasons but I still find that an ok choice. They were unhealthy for me and I am at peace with the decision. I hope that is not painting them black. I hope that is not spitting. I just choose to not associate with people who are toxic. They exhaust and upset me and I don't want that in my life. I am sick of their unreasonable behaviour and I refuse to let it impact me anymore. I don't hate them I don't think they are all bad I don't wish them any harm. I just don't want them dripping their version of crazy in my life anymore.

The only other thing I can think of is I used to get really overwhelming sad. I think there were always reasons but it was overwhelming. I have experienced that a few times in the last few years but again there were reasons. My mom was dying, My fiancee left me, etc. I was sad. I just wonder if the degree of sadness is normal. I usually just book a cry my eyes out night and I feel better afterwards. I guess with counselling we will find out.

I am going to do DBT for myself to learn the skill set. I think it will help me understand and deal with people in my life better wether they are BPD or not. My siblings and father exhibit BPD tendencies and wether I am or not learning how to be more emotionally mature is healthy I think.

Anyway I hope so.

[hope2727]

" Our emotions do not define our entire world. They do for pwBPD."

That is such a powerful statement it almost made me cry. Thank you I needed that today.  I have worked so hard to learn to control my temper. To go away and think about if my reactions are reasonable and what I am really mad about. Now I find at the tail end of this relationship reverting to blowing my stack and yelling. I hate that in myself. I will be damned if I let someone drag me down that path again.

Thank you thank you thank you for posting that sentence. It is really helping me understand the difference. My emotions may be powerful but they DO NOT define my entire world. They may even overwhelm me occasionally but they DO NOT define me.

[sparrowfarfrom home]

Dear Hope,

All the things you mentioned can be within the realm of normal. It can depend on so many variables. I hope your therapist has a compassionate  and up to date  understanding of BPD. There are 9 criteria, and a minimum of 5 are needed for a diagnosis of BPD. Perhaps you can read through them, make notes on them, and share them with your therapist in terms of how you feel they relate to you.

The excellent news is that either way you will be on a journey to healing, so there is really no need to fear.

Ask your  T  about the difference (if there is one)  between Traits and Disorder.

please keep us posted on how you do. We are all learning.

[hope2727]

Thanks Sparrrow,

I will keep you posted. I am familiar with the list. I think sometimes when we are searching for answers we look for things and try to make all the peoces fit even if we have to force them. I think I may be trying to shove my behaviours into a definition of the disorder. I am feeling a little better now that a few hours have passed. Thank you to everyone here who has shared their story or read and responded to mine.

Hugs all.

[RayNigh]

sparrowfarfrom home,

You're not alone. I sometimes wonder if I myself may have BPD. From a psychological standpoint, assuming that some psychological conditions are hereditary it would make sense that BPD could potentially be a biological/psychological trait. Yet I think it can sometimes be hard to distinguish between having BPD and FLEAS because as children of BPD/uBPD parents we learn from the environment around us. As such we would by nature pick up some of the same traits/behaviors.

I think though we can learn to distinguish. For instance, a few months back I was communicating with a friend. We were going to get together during the summer to work on a project. She ended up calling and canceling the project as other things came up this summer (i.e. she got engaged and is now working on planning a wedding). Initially I was hurt and I was wondering if maybe I was uBPD like my own mom due to my emotional response to the situation.

In self-reflection I realized where the hurt came from. It wasn't a child-like response because I wasn't blaming her or thinking that she didn't care. I also didn't respond with a "temper tantrum" like I would imagine my mom would do in a similar situation (and have seen her do in the past). I also realized that the hurt was not so much anger but more like a mourning in that I understand that the dynamics of the relationship will now change. I would think that would distinguish in part from being a child/someone around a BPD/uBPD vs. someone with BPD if that makes sense.

[caughtnreleased]

Hi I discussed this with my T as well  a while back.  He told me that the difference between a disordered person and a non is that the disordered person cannot CHANGE.  Perhaps this is a result of their fragility, as it certainly is difficult to examine yourself, and must be all the more so if you have gone through life exploding all your relationships.

 

And... .it's something I actually discussed with my BPDex. he thought that because he was self aware (aware that his emotions were out of control) that he was ahead of the game.  But I've since decided there are different levels of awareness and understanding, because he couldn't break free from his cycles and continued to mess up his life whenever he got emotional.

I think I read somewhere else on these boards that there are:

1.Those who don't see and don't understand

2.Those who see but don't understand

3.Those who see and understand but cannot act

4.And finally, those who see, understand and are able to act

I think my self aware BPDex was at level 2.  I think I am now somewhere between 3 and 4.  There are somethings that I am acting on... .and others, I'm having more trouble with so more work is needed.

But yes... .as we know, people CAN recover from BPD, but for that they need to get to level 4... .where they can CHANGE in order to recover... .and while I have very strong emotions, and probably some elements of BPD, without actually having the disorder, I know how hard it has been for me to get somewhere between 3 and 4.  Interestingly though,when I met my BPDex I was probably at 1. He brought me to #2 in a pretty life shattering way... .but... .hey, maybe he saved me a few years of more pain.  Thanks BPDex.

[Ziggiddy]

Such an intriguing topic.

As far as brain scans (MRIs and CTs) go, if you look at that in light of neuroscience, the brain creates the thoughts even as the thoughts create the brains.

In terms of socialised behaviour, naturally we are going to internalise the behaviour of our parents. no surprise that if our parent is disordered we are going to learn disordered behaviour.

The thing that strikes me is when it becomes a matter of choice.

We all have the inbuilt ability to improve our emotional IQ. Some choose to do this. People wBPD usually do not.

That is a matter of choice. We are all exposed to opportunities to learn and to grow. Some avail themselves of it.

As far as 'fleas' go, that's probably worth defining better. The word to me seems to suggest a thing that is set in stone. A flea is a flea is a flea.

I prefer to think in terms of conditioning. That some behaviours are reflexive because they've never been examined or they are brought forward by emotional response.

We respond very emotionally to a disordered parent because we are:

• conditioned to (modelling) and



• underdeveloped in experiencing our emotions safely and with tolerance.

There's a very human element to feeling a good deal of pain when we are emotionally injured - no one likes to be criticised. It becomes a problem when the emotional reaction is the final one. When there is no reflection on consequences.

Hope

In the past I have been prone to rages. Only occasionally and Usually over completely stupid things.

It may have seemed to you that they were stupid things but it may just have been the 'bubble' of anger escaping in a safer place. Likely the stupid things were echoes of things that happened to you before and weren't safe to be angry at.

I used to get really overwhelming sad. I think there were always reasons but it was overwhelming.

It may have been a similar thing: added sorrow to what you were already feeling. Sadness is so easy to ignore and store but it pops out somewhere.

I believe this is the basis to depression. unless the emotion is linked to the original event or something similar, it continues to lie unprocessed until provoked by something current. Wen you were feeling sad or angry about current events I imagine your psyche probably saw that as a signal to release more pent up emotions through that safety valve.

jmanvo

I just got overwhelmed by a "perceived slight" from another when it was really something very harmless.

If it felt like a slight to you it was probably a slight to you. being oversensitive is a wonderful quality, I think. I am glad you were able to change your ultimate reaction.

caughtnreleased

we all have BPD traits inside us: ie, under moments of stress, we are likely to revert to BPD mode (ie childhood mode).  The thing he said distinguished nons from BPD, is that nons are able to cope with those feelings and emotions, rather than act on them immediately since we are capable of seeing beyond our emotions.  A person with BPD isn,t able to do that, and to properly cope with their strong emotions.

That was quite a nice way of putting it. i resonated with that. The only difference in my opinion is that it's not that a pwBPD isn't able to do that, it's that they choose not to see anything wrong with doing that!

I am not suggesting people want to be disordered but rather there is a choice about whether or not they want to make moves towards self development. We all have the potential for that. Labelling something and then just leaving it there can be a form of copping out.

Ziggiddy