Codependant. Were we always or did BPD make us.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi All

Ive just started reading co-dependant no more and have to admit Im a bit annoyed.

I realise that the book is aimed more toward SO's of alchoholics but it labels them as being co-dependant and that they always have been.

I was just wondering were we co-dependant or did the relationship with a pwBPD make us that way?

I realise that I have many of the co-dependant traits but I have always been able to set boundaries. With my uBPD exs these boundaries were slowly eroded away. The constant walking on eggshells which I endured also happened slowly.

So was I always co-dependant?

[enlighten me]

Hi All

Ive just started reading co-dependant no more and have to admit Im a bit annoyed.

I realise that the book is aimed more toward SO's of alchoholics but it labels them as being co-dependant and that they always have been.

I was just wondering were we co-dependant or did the relationship with a pwBPD make us that way?

I realise that I have many of the co-dependant traits but I have always been able to set boundaries. With my uBPD exs these boundaries were slowly eroded away. The constant walking on eggshells which I endured also happened slowly.

So was I always co-dependant?

[Blimblam]

You probably always had self esteem issues stemming from trauma in your childhood.

Just like all pwBPD penpd they just tend to fall on the far end of that spectrum.

They have the term for it that is sort of all encompassing that is complex ptsd.  Which would include add and host of other pd traits and PDs. Most of all of it tends to be epigenetic triggers caused by truama mostly early truama.

[enlighten me]

Hi Blim blam

No childhood trauma for me. Had a happy childhood. Ive always been a pleaser though.

My problem with being labelled co-dependant is not the fact that I was co-dependant in my 2 uBPD relationships it was the fact that I don't believe I started out as co-dependent. I was always very independent but believe I was bullied, manipulated and shamed into co-dependency. It happened slowly and came from my exs changing their tactics when something didn't work to get what they wanted.

The problem now is because I have been involved with 2 uBPDs then the chances of co-dependency are a lot higher for future relationships. Before my uBPD relationships I didn't get involved all that quickly. I could detach very easily if my boundaries weren't being respected.

So I believe that my co-dependency was due to the relationships rather than already being co-dependant. The same way that a person doesn't have Stockholm syndrome until they are put in the situation of being held hostage.

[Blimblam]

Hi Blim blam

No childhood trauma for me. Had a happy childhood. Ive always been a pleaser though.

My problem with being labelled co-dependant is not the fact that I was co-dependant in my 2 uBPD relationships it was the fact that I don't believe I started out as co-dependent. I was always very independent but believe I was bullied, manipulated and shamed into co-dependency. It happened slowly and came from my exs changing their tactics when something didn't work to get what they wanted.

The problem now is because I have been involved with 2 uBPDs then the chances of co-dependency are a lot higher for future relationships. Before my uBPD relationships I didn't get involved all that quickly. I could detach very easily if my boundaries weren't being respected.

So I believe that my co-dependency was due to the relationships rather than already being co-dependant. The same way that a person doesn't have Stockholm syndrome until they are put in the situation of being held hostage.

Makes sense to me.  What's your Myers Briggs type?

The thing is you have an idea in your head on what truama is.  We have all been truamatized to an extent. We are connected to an artificial system and disconnected from the natural rhythms of nature which is traumatizing. Just the simple fact we are disconnected from the night and day cycles of the sun because of artificial light is traumatizing. 

We are conditioned to such an extent that we have normalized truama and are in denial of it.

[Harri]

I don't think the BPD can make us anything.  Rather, it is my belief, that certain relationships with certain people bring out different aspects of our Self.  Some behaviors/characteristics will be enhanced and some will diminish.  It is all about interlocking wounds.

Now, having said all that, I do think that over a very prolonged period of time, one can take on the behaviors of another, but the extent to which that happens depends on several factors in addition to the time factor.  Things like how isolated/insulated the relationship is, how strong the individuals personality is, and of course and early trauma issues.

Blimblam said:

We are conditioned to such an extent that we have normalized truama and are in denial of it.

Yes.  So many damaging behaviors have become normalized.  So many people think they know what healthy behavior and healthy love looks like and so many haven't a clue.

[enlighten me]

I don't think the BPD can make us anything.  Rather, it is my belief, that certain relationships with certain people bring out different aspects of our Self.  Some behaviors/characteristics will be enhanced and some will diminish.  It is all about interlocking wounds.

I have to disagree to some extent. With brain washing people can be made to do things they never normally would. The series homeland is a classic example of someone being made co-dependant. You also have Stockholm syndrome where hostages form a bond to their captor and have even helped them to escape when the rescuers come in.

I think the only people that cant be made co-dependant are people with no empathy. After all it is our good nature that makes us want to help and helping others is the basis for co-dependency. The fact that we nearly all have this good nature within us means that we can nearly all be made co-dependant if manipulated enough. Just my opinion though.

[Harri]

Hi enlighten me.  I am familiar with Stockholm syndrome but I have not seen the TV show. 

We don't have to agree.  I was just answering your question from my perspective.  I grew up with a uBPD mom and I believe my ex is UBPD or at least has a lot of the traits, and I have my own of course.  So I think my perspective and understanding of human nature and our own capacity for certain things is quite different from someone who has not experienced trauma as a child.  One thing my experience has taught me is that we are all capable of behaviors we would prefer not to ever do or even acknowledge.  Fortunately many of us never have to confront that part of our Self.  IMHO of course.

[Blimblam]

I think you are both right.

We all have these archetypes that exist within the unconcious mind. Events in life trigger them and they play out how we have been conditioned to relate to them. The conditioning never ends though and in our relationship we are further conditioned.

[enlighten me]

Hi Harri

What I forgot to add was that I also agree with you to some extent. This is because I believe that inside all of us lies the traits for any of the disorders. We manage to keep these supressed by our better traits. As someone who was raised with BPD you have probably learned some traits. You may not have developed these traits if you hadn't been exposed to BPD behaviour at a young age.

[Harri]

Hi enlightenme.  So lets see if I understand this---> if we all have the traits of the disorder in us, then our r/s with the pwBPD can only activate those traits in a sense or they can enhance the traits?  Is that the same as what you believe?  I ask because I want to understand and I think we might actually agree but perhaps my focus is a bit too narrow.

Blimblam, I hope to study archetypes over the next month or so.  I think I will get a lot of insight from knowing more about them.  Your response is what got me wondering if enlightenme and I are actually agreeing but I am stuck on one aspect.  I am still a bit hazy on it all though.   

[Turkish]

Though all of us are influenced in some way by our FOO, I think we can also over analyze. The words of my T whisper to me, "not everything needs to be pathologized."

Occam's Razor: some of us could be just born with biogentic traits and personality characteristics which play a large part in who we are. Some are naturally born with emotional reliliency. I saw the difference between both of my is by the time they were 1. My mom recalls that when I was 4 and in swim lessons that she noticed that I was the only kid going out of my way to help the younger kids. A co-dependent 4 year old? I'll joke that I was (and I'd certainly experienced a fair amount of trauma by that age), but c'mon, really? It's probably just the way I was wired.

Co-dependency, as my T said, isn't a pathology. It is, however, a set of unhealthy behaviors. To reach the level where one might be labeled "co-dependent," he said it manifests itself in all aspects of a person's life, not just in a single r/s.

[enlighten me]

Hi Harri

What Im trying to say is that within all of us is the ability to be anything. BPD, co-dependant, narcissistic etc. All the traits that are associated with these are inside all of us but I believe we keep some of the negative ones under control due to our own stability. Most personality disorders would appear to have a genetic basis which tips the behavioural scale in favour of less attractive traits (this is only my opinion). With us so-called nons we have a fairly evenly balanced starting point which is then effected by environment. We all learn traits but we have a moral compass that can override the more negative ones.

With my co-dependency I see it as not having always been there. I see that in my last two relationships I started off ok but slowly over time I was whittled down to being co-dependant. What may have started out in the beginning as a comment such as have you done the dishes by the end would be me panicking to do the dishes so that I didn't disappoint. This didn't happen over night. It was a slow process of sighs, tuts, looks and eventually tellings off. The dishes is only one example but the same thing happened throughout everything that I did. Just going to the supermarket in the end would leave me panicking that I had messed up the shopping list or that something would be out of stock. At the beginning of the relationship if it was out of stock it was out of stock by the end it was my fault for not going sooner, or going to a different super market. I wouldn't even have to have that said to me as I would already have blamed myself for it.

[Blimblam]

Hi Harri

What Im trying to say is that within all of us is the ability to be anything. BPD, co-dependant, narcissistic etc. All the traits that are associated with these are inside all of us but I believe we keep some of the negative ones under control due to our own stability. Most personality disorders would appear to have a genetic basis which tips the behavioural scale in favour of less attractive traits (this is only my opinion). With us so-called nons we have a fairly evenly balanced starting point which is then effected by environment. We all learn traits but we have a moral compass that can override the more negative ones.

With my co-dependency I see it as not having always been there. I see that in my last two relationships I started off ok but slowly over time I was whittled down to being co-dependant. What may have started out in the beginning as a comment such as have you done the dishes by the end would be me panicking to do the dishes so that I didn't disappoint. This didn't happen over night. It was a slow process of sighs, tuts, looks and eventually tellings off. The dishes is only one example but the same thing happened throughout everything that I did. Just going to the supermarket in the end would leave me panicking that I had messed up the shopping list or that something would be out of stock. At the beginning of the relationship if it was out of stock it was out of stock by the end it was my fault for not going sooner, or going to a different super market. I wouldn't even have to have that said to me as I would already have blamed myself for it.

Is this a reoccurring theme in all your relationships?

[enlighten me]

I was with my uBPDexw for 14 years in all. In that time she had claimed all sorts of illnesses from bi-polar to chronic fatigue syndrome. She was a waif type and I was left to do everything. I believe this is where it started. With my uBPD exgf it started off normally. She was the queen type and very independent so didn't play the sympathy card what she did was the chipping away at me. It was little digs at first but by the end she had me running around in circles trying to please her and fearing her wrath if I didn't manage it. She did such a good job that I had all the symptoms of PTSD. Ive been in situations where Ive had rockets fired at me every day for weeks on end and I can honestly say I never felt like what she made me feel.

Before these two though I was never like it. If boundaries where crossed then they where kicked to the curb.

[Blimblam]

I was with my uBPDexw for 14 years in all. In that time she had claimed all sorts of illnesses from bi-polar to chronic fatigue syndrome. She was a waif type and I was left to do everything. I believe this is where it started. With my uBPD exgf it started off normally. She was the queen type and very independent so didn't play the sympathy card what she did was the chipping away at me. It was little digs at first but by the end she had me running around in circles trying to please her and fearing her wrath if I didn't manage it. She did such a good job that I had all the symptoms of PTSD. Ive been in situations where Ive had rockets fired at me every day for weeks on end and I can honestly say I never felt like what she made me feel.

Before these two though I was never like it. If boundaries where crossed then they where kicked to the curb.

I Know what you mean.  No one I know believes me how stressful these relationships are. They say all women are like that.  Or my dad was in a real war you don't have ptsd. I was honestly more terrified of filling up a glass of water wrong than one night having a deranged tweeker pointing a gun at my head in the middle of his paranoid delusion.

They slowly condition us over time. I do think though we are primed to these types of relationships in the first place though. 

[Turkish]

I was with my uBPDexw for 14 years in all. In that time she had claimed all sorts of illnesses from bi-polar to chronic fatigue syndrome. She was a waif type and I was left to do everything. I believe this is where it started. With my uBPD exgf it started off normally. She was the queen type and very independent so didn't play the sympathy card what she did was the chipping away at me. It was little digs at first but by the end she had me running around in circles trying to please her and fearing her wrath if I didn't manage it. She did such a good job that I had all the symptoms of PTSD. Ive been in situations where Ive had rockets fired at me every day for weeks on end and I can honestly say I never felt like what she made me feel.

Before these two though I was never like it. If boundaries where crossed then they where kicked to the curb.

I Know what you mean.  No one I know believes me how stressful these relationships are. They say all women are like that.  Or my dad was in a real war you don't have ptsd.

I see invalidation everywhere now. I remember the George Carl in routine where he was making fun of the term PTSD, saying previously they called it war fatigue, or shell shock. I don't think PTSD was an official dX until Vietnam. It's like the invalidating argument "I had to walk a mile throw snow to get to school, you don't know how easy you have it these days!"

[letmeout]

Shell Shock... .what an excellent term to describe a relationship with a BPD person.

I walked around numb in shell shock most of the time. Shocked at what could come out of his mouth, shocked at the monstrous behaviors that no other human I knew would ever think of doing, shocked at the paranoia and delusions that were his everyday reality.

Even more shocked at myself that I sympathized with him to the extent that I tolerated being emotionally abused.

[Pingo]

I think you are both right.

We all have these archetypes that exist within the unconcious mind. Events in life trigger them and they play out how we have been conditioned to relate to them. The conditioning never ends though and in our relationship we are further conditioned.

I believe this to be true Blimblam, I think we are all capable of these different behaviours and our life experiences direct whether they get played out. This belief gives me empathy for the pwBPD because I see that we all have these traits.  Why didn't I become BPD while he did?  It wasn't a choice, it was probably many factors including genetics and the severity of abuse that he experienced growing up.

I was obviously codependent in this r/s with my exh but am I codependent in every r/s, every friendship, with my kids?  No.  I think that this r/s triggered my codependency.  Why?  For me it was b/c it brought up a lot of my FOO issues.  Did it cause my codependency?  No, I think I was always vulnerable to it.

Funny thing about codependency, my mother joined a 12 step codependent group a couple decades ago and then eventually she ran the group.  Now after all this learning about BPD I would say she is closer to BPD than being a codependent!  It is my father who is the codependent in their r/s (and funny enough he is also running a men's group for codependency!)  I asked my T how it can be that my mother has been involved in this 12-step program for all these years and she is still in complete denial about her mental illness, her compulsions (she's an alcoholic), her dysfunctional behaviours (she's really nuts and we've been estranged now for 5 yrs).  She says that some people try to spiritually by-pass the work they need to do. 

[Pingo]

I see invalidation everywhere now. I remember the George Carl in routine where he was making fun of the term PTSD, saying previously they called it war fatigue, or shell shock. I don't think PTSD was an official dX until Vietnam. It's like the invalidating argument "I had to walk a mile throw snow to get to school, you don't know how easy you have it these days!"

I know this is going off on a bit of a tangent but I know many of us here are suffering with PTSD symptoms... .

Turkish, have you read the book "Trauma and Recovery" by Judith Herman?  I am reading it now and it really describes why people have such an issue with identifying with the victim.  It goes into the whole history of the work that has been focused on PTSD for the last century and a half.  Fascinating.  And I think you are right, it didn't get labelled PTSD until the Vietnam war.  Before that it was 'shell shock', 'hysterics', 'war neurosis'.  People identify with the perpetrator b/c to identify with the victim means seeing the atrocities for what they are and most people can't handle it.  This leads to secrecy and denial.  It really is a cultural problem.  Look at how DV is treated.  I think that's why it's so great that we have this forum, that we can voice the pain that we have been through and people don't try to diminish it, they support and validate it.   

[Indyan]

I don't think I'm codependant. If there was no baby, I would have left for sure. I've always been a leaver, for a lot less than this.

Unfortunately, his first crisis happened when I was already pregnant.

I'm not saying my only motivation has been the baby, but he's the reason I kept trying, and still am today.

[enlighten me]

Funny thing about codependency, my mother joined a 12 step codependent group a couple decades ago and then eventually she ran the group.  Now after all this learning about BPD I would say she is closer to BPD than being a codependent!  It is my father who is the codependent in their r/s (and funny enough he is also running a men's group for codependency!)  I asked my T how it can be that my mother has been involved in this 12-step program for all these years and she is still in complete denial about her mental illness, her compulsions (she's an alcoholic), her dysfunctional behaviours (she's really nuts and we've been estranged now for 5 yrs).  She says that some people try to spiritually by-pass the work they need to do. 

As I was reading about co-dependency I came to realise that my exgf saw herself as the martyr that co-dependants are accused of being. The fact that your mum ran a co-dependants group may be due to the fact that she was co-dependant. The more I read the more I see that even though I was the one running around, doing all the chores and trying to please her, she may have also been trying to please me and adding co-dependant pressure on herself. She may have had a pattern of co-dependency from previous relationships that carried over into this one.

[Pingo]

Funny thing about codependency, my mother joined a 12 step codependent group a couple decades ago and then eventually she ran the group.  Now after all this learning about BPD I would say she is closer to BPD than being a codependent!  It is my father who is the codependent in their r/s (and funny enough he is also running a men's group for codependency!)  I asked my T how it can be that my mother has been involved in this 12-step program for all these years and she is still in complete denial about her mental illness, her compulsions (she's an alcoholic), her dysfunctional behaviours (she's really nuts and we've been estranged now for 5 yrs).  She says that some people try to spiritually by-pass the work they need to do. 

As I was reading about co-dependency I came to realise that my exgf saw herself as the martyr that co-dependants are accused of being. The fact that your mum ran a co-dependants group may be due to the fact that she was co-dependant. The more I read the more I see that even though I was the one running around, doing all the chores and trying to please her, she may have also been trying to please me and adding co-dependant pressure on herself. She may have had a pattern of co-dependency from previous relationships that carried over into this one.

Perhaps my mother is codependent AND has a PD?  They do share some similar traits.  But like my exh, she couldn't put her own needs aside for the needs of another.  She loves to rescue but only to control.  She has to control everything/everyone.  My exh is the same.  They both exhibit waif behaviours as victims, they both always have some kind of ailment or the world is coming to an end.  There's always some kind of crisis.  But they can both turn on a dime and be queen/king also. 

[enlighten me]

I hate to say it but co-dependency is all about control. Its about making others do what we feel is right because we feel what they are doing is wrong or we feel they are not capable of doing it for themselves. Maybe your mum and exh saw themselves as putting their own needs aside. Even though it may not have seemed like it. Don't forget that with BPD tiny things can be blown out of proportion so just by having to wait a few minutes for you or by giving you a lift they have put their needs aside.

[Blimblam]

When i hear codependent I think passive aggressive controlling behavior.  

That or massochistic self sacrifice.  Martyrdom.

So we don't like the label?  Not surprising because we don't like to be painted with a broad brush


It goes the same for pwBPD. They are not all the same.

I think the most important thing is to identify patterns. And tendencies.

I was not ever passive aggressive in my rs untill my ex using me without reciprocity triggered me.

But I got triggered to show her I was caring and giving. While she was pulling away. This was massochistic  and when he didn't respond how I wanted I was PA.  

A codependent coping strategy that is latent in me untill triggered.

An I gave and gave and gave. I went to the end of the earth for one chick.  

It's hard to do and admit but what is the overall pattern?

[enlighten me]

Like you Blim blam I was triggered by their behaviour and my coping mechanism was co-dependant/ passive aggressive. I think the co-dependency started off as just helping but the more I was manipulated, the more I bought into the sob stories the more co-dependant I became. I went from helping out to trying to save. They went from needing help to being the victim then to showing their disappointment. Each of the stages had a different level of co-dependency.

The needing help was just a natural reaction that I wouldn't class as co-dependant. They asked and if I could I would help.

When they started playing the victim I was emotionally sucked in and because I felt sorry for all they had endured I wanted them to have a better experience.

By the time they showed their disappointment I had already been sucked into co-dependency. With the disappointment I was constantly struggling to keep my head above water as nothing I did met with their approval. The fact that I couldn't read their minds and predict their every need was seen as failure by them. I was resentful as nothing I did was ever good enough.

Realising I was co-dependant and that I was controlling was a bit of a shock. I don't know if in a normal relationship I will be co-dependant again. I would never say I was co-dependant in previous relationships though. If anything I was selfish and put my needs before theirs.

[hope2727]

I literally just came from the psychologist who said ... ."You aren't co-dependant or you would still be in the relationship. You love unconditionally and thats fine. You knew when to draw the line and tell him 'no more'. You knew when your boundaries were crossed and how to take a step back. Its ok to love unconditionally from afar and not allow further abuse."

I feel a bit better. Not a lot but a bit.  :'( Doesn't make me miss him less.

So yes I can be co-dependant but at least we can all say we loved unconditionally too.

[Blimblam]

Like you Blim blam I was triggered by their behaviour and my coping mechanism was co-dependant/ passive aggressive. I think the co-dependency started off as just helping but the more I was manipulated, the more I bought into the sob stories the more co-dependant I became. I went from helping out to trying to save. They went from needing help to being the victim then to showing their disappointment. Each of the stages had a different level of co-dependency.

The needing help was just a natural reaction that I wouldn't class as co-dependant. They asked and if I could I would help.

When they started playing the victim I was emotionally sucked in and because I felt sorry for all they had endured I wanted them to have a better experience.

By the time they showed their disappointment I had already been sucked into co-dependency. With the disappointment I was constantly struggling to keep my head above water as nothing I did met with their approval. The fact that I couldn't read their minds and predict their every need was seen as failure by them. I was resentful as nothing I did was ever good enough.

Realising I was co-dependant and that I was controlling was a bit of a shock. I don't know if in a normal relationship I will be co-dependant again. I would never say I was co-dependant in previous relationships though. If anything I was selfish and put my needs before theirs.

I could read my exs mind.  I just we into denial when she withdrew.

She withdrew because she came to expect me to read her mind and meet all her needs all the time. I got really busy and became needy.  But I was working 4 times as much as her and providing everything at the time. She refused to reciprocate.  She started to dysregulate against me.  She was accusing me of controlling her.  I would go into detail explaining reciprocity.

What I realize is she was just upset I wasn't spending enough time with her.

[JRav59]

Sometimes developing codependency issues with a BPD is a way of survival. I refused to take her issues on in the beginning. It didn't start getting codependent until we moved in together. I always had to be be 5 steps ahead of my waify partner or else I knew I was going to be taken down with her (financially, etc.). Yes it was a constant state of control between us. She gas lit, I felt like I was dealing with a child a majority of the time. I know now that was my fault for not saying, "no" to living together. That I should have ended it immediately. I definitely learned the hard way where the red flags are with this one.

I think living with a BPD person brings out personality traits we don't normally see in ourselves. It creates toxicity. No matter how well adjusted you think you are. I did not like myself when I was with my partner. I'm glad she's gone. There is no love there. It's really important to take our time before jumping into the next relationship. Otherwise we are doomed to repeat or have an even WORSE time with someone new.   

All we can do is learn from what we experienced and be kind to ourselves as we keep striving to be better and more whole.

[Indyan]

I literally just came from the psychologist who said ... ."You aren't co-dependant or you would still be in the relationship. You love unconditionally and thats fine. You knew when to draw the line and tell him 'no more'. You knew when your boundaries were crossed and how to take a step back. Its ok to love unconditionally from afar and not allow further abuse."

I feel a bit better. Not a lot but a bit.  :'( Doesn't make me miss him less.

So yes I can be co-dependant but at least we can all say we loved unconditionally too.

Thanks. It makes me feel a little better.

[MaybeSo]

Not all, but many of us are using adaptive coping strategies we learned in childhood with our primary attachment figures.    I was not especially aware until I had therapy and did a lot of soul searching…how codependent a role I played with caregivers when I was a child.  My mom had a lot of depression.  My father left us for another woman when I was about 5, so I was left to worry and care about my mom’s emotional state…and my dad had a fragile ego so whenever I saw him, my job was to ‘adore’ and support him emotionally.  No one mandated this directly, no one hit me.  I was mostly ignored.  This was all just subtle but my role was very clear.  I never in anyway challenged my father.  He was always leaving…if I disappointed him I feared he would leave forever.  He likes to be supported emotionally.   So I instinctually learned to be the perfect mirror for him. I could be dying inside and wanting to scream…’don’t go’ but I’d smile and be supportive even as he was walking out the door.  I felt pretty favorite and special to him when he was around.  Lots of times he wasn’t around and then I was on my own…dealing with a depressed mom and trying to grow-up.  

These are not abusive parents. Just unaware and very preoccupied parents.

An unaware parent can unintentionally teach a child to fill a certain role, and while doing that the child is too preoccupied to fully explore their own developing self identity…the focus is on worrying about and tending to adults.  When we grow up we can slip right into that same role with a wounded partner and do the same thing…and it can set up a codependent dynamic.

I think the study of attachment theory provides the best insight into how we tend to show-up for relationships as adults.  

And yes a pw BPD can and usually does take on unhealthy codependent roles in a relationship. I know my partner does, he has very codependent parts of self.  I try to be aware so that I don’t exploit what he sometimes offers.   They can be very self sacrificing and go overboard in their attempts to please a partner (though this is not static, he has fragmented parts of self and not all take this role, some of his parts of self move into the totally selfish jerk arena)…but we see unhealthy codependence  even in the over the top idealization phases.  That over the top idealization stuff…it's not normal, that’s not healthy. pwBPD often get themselves into very abusive relationships…and abuse over times usually goes both ways.  Not always, but it’s the norm.  I work with a DV shelter and I’d say most of the women there have strong borderline traits and a lot of complex PTSD.