Can't stand the nightmare Please Help

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Help! I'm trapped and I do not know what to do! About a year ago, my wife, who suffers from borderline personality disorder, flipped out on me and filed for divorce. We were going through a marriage restoration class with our church, and she had just signed a covenant with the group that she would not even discuss divorce while we were going through the workshop. Not only did she do this, she blindsided me with divorce papers.

In order to justify her actions, she made wild accusations against me, including abuse, stalking, tampering with her bank accounts, and much, much more.

She then personally contacted every friend I have had over the last seven years and spread lies about me to them in order to completely destroyed my reputation and ensure I had no emotional support during the divorce. She then filed a fraudulent restraining order, leading to me and my nine-year-old twins being forcibly removed from our home by the police.

We were kicked out of the house, just before Thanksgiving with no money, no resources, and she had taken all of my friends from me with her lies, so nobody would help me. Within her emergency restraining order, she took sole custody of my six-year-old daughter, and I was not even allowed to send her a note saying "Happy Thanksgiving, I love you". I had to go over a month without even seeing her. My daughter is the joy of my life. Previously to this, I always spent at least 4 to 5 hours with her every single day of her life. It broke my heart to go from this to a point where I wasn't even allowed to see if her or contact her in anyway.

My wife raised an army of supporters who harassed me and my twins (from first marriage) on a daily basis. Life had become so difficult for them that I had to pull my twins out of the Christian school where they attended. My wife's restraining order also made it so I wasn't even allowed to take my kids to school or pick them up or attend any school activities because I could not come within 500 feet of the school or my daughter.

Long story short, my wife's world came crashing down when I responded in court with witness testimony and evidence proving that she was guilty of 23 counts of perjury. It was clear that she was not just mistaken with her facts, she blatantly lied in order to take my daughter away from me.

Several months and about $30,000 later, my wife came to me and apologized for her actions. She admitted to lying to me and destroying my entire life in order to take my daughter from me. One thing led to another and she eventually dropped her lawsuit, and I took her back into my life. I had to get a new apartment because she had kicked me out of our home. Eventually, she came to the realization that she couldn't afford the house and had to sell it by way of a short sale.

Earlier this year, she realized that her actions were not rational and she doesn't behave like an emotionally healthy person. She finally listened to me about her mental problems and went to a therapist to discuss the possibility of her having serious mental health issues. Eventually, she was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and was placed in a partial hospitalization program for about six weeks.

I was hoping that the hospitalization and the DBT program she was in would help, but overall things have just gotten worse. She engages in the same behaviors the same verbal abuse, and usually denies that he's doing anything wrong. It gets to the point where I cannot tolerate anymore and I threaten to kick her out of the house, then she cries and apologizes and then we repeat the whole cycle all over again.

Although she has been living here, she still had a bunch of her belongings and furniture at her old house that was scheduled to be short sold. The timeline for the sale moved up several weeks without notice, and she asked me to drop everything in my life to help her pack up and move everything out of the house and hold a garage sale etc.

As requested, I dropped everything, took off of work, and worked round-the-clock to get the house ready for sale. She continually verbally abused me the entire time, and every time I was about to walk out and leave her to deal with the house herself, she would cry and tell me that she was sorry and needed my help. The move took everything I had emotionally and physically. I was a complete mess by the time the week was over. Most nights, I only got two or three hours of sleep.

After everything was done, I told her that I was completely behind with my life and I had a bunch of stuff that I need to get caught up with. I started going through the list of things that I needed her help with, and she told me that she didn't want to help. She works part-time as a substitute teacher and I asked her for her to help me on a particular day to help me recover from how messed up my life was from dropping everything for her. She told me that she would rather divorce me then give up a day of substitute teaching to help me out. She said this fully realizing that I had just given up a week of my life and that the only reason I need your help is because I was helping her.

Later that night, she told me that I am trying to control her and that I expect her to be a robot and that she was right one year ago when she accused me of all these terrible things and told everybody what a horrible person I am. She took back her apology for her accusations and once again, stood by her initial accusations of me being a monster.

During the first for seven years of our marriage, I suffered from terrible migraines that were so bad that sometimes I couldn't even get out of bed. After she had kicked me out of the house last year, my headaches completely went away. I was completely cured of my headaches. When she returned into my life the headaches came back, but only when she would engage in abusive or rational behavior. When she is around me now, I am in such extreme pain, that it is almost impossible for me to even get out of bed.

When I asked her to leave a few days ago, she begged for just a couple of days to plan out where she was going to go. I foolishly let her stay while she was working up a temporary housing situation. During this time, she has continued to say bizarre things, showing she has no clue about what's really going on in the world around her. She has tried to not wear out her welcome by offering to go get me food or go pick up a coffee at Starbucks for me during most mornings.

I have become so physically ill by her presence in my home that I still haven't been able to catch up on life, nor have I been able to go to work. I made the mistake of telling her that she can stay as long as she is helpful so she can help me get caught up with everything that I'm so far behind with in my life.

She told me she would help, but first she wants to spend more days substitute teaching, because that's what makes her happy. I explained to her that the only reason I am behind and need her help is because of her.  She then told me that I am uncaring because I don't kill care about her happiness and I need to appreciate everything she does for me.

The truth is, I do not appreciate what she is doing to me right now. She is making my life miserable. She is abusive to me and the kids. She urinates and defecates on my furniture. This past year she has cost me over $20,000. She has wrecked my car twice and blamed me.  She is destroyed my carpeting, furniture, and some very expensive computer equipment. She has destroyed a $3000 suit. She has also broken my foot twice this year (first time was an accident, second time was not). I started working on making new friends after she took all my friends away from me last year. She has spread more trash talk about me to our new church friends so that none of them will even look me in the eye anymore.

She has admitted to all of the stuff I have just listed. She is comfortable with telling me that she's sorry and that I should just get over it.

I know that she is messed up in the head. I know that she can't help herself. Knowing this doesn't make my life any easier. I am sick and tired of trying to explain to somebody that is not normal to lie and take somebody's daughter away from them, and then apologize, and then tell them that it was justified all along. I can't deal with this "I love you, I hate you" roller coaster anymore. I don't know what to do.

Whoever is reading this please do not attack me. I'm tired of people judging me. I have lost all my friends. I'm tired of people not believing me and making me justify myself. If you feel the need to attack me, judge me, or tell me that this is all my fault, please just don't respond to this. I need practical help so I can try and survive another day in this twisted world that I call home.

[Unlikelytarget]

Help! I'm trapped and I do not know what to do! About a year ago, my wife, who suffers from borderline personality disorder, flipped out on me and filed for divorce. We were going through a marriage restoration class with our church, and she had just signed a covenant with the group that she would not even discuss divorce while we were going through the workshop. Not only did she do this, she blindsided me with divorce papers.

In order to justify her actions, she made wild accusations against me, including abuse, stalking, tampering with her bank accounts, and much, much more.

She then personally contacted every friend I have had over the last seven years and spread lies about me to them in order to completely destroyed my reputation and ensure I had no emotional support during the divorce. She then filed a fraudulent restraining order, leading to me and my nine-year-old twins being forcibly removed from our home by the police.

We were kicked out of the house, just before Thanksgiving with no money, no resources, and she had taken all of my friends from me with her lies, so nobody would help me. Within her emergency restraining order, she took sole custody of my six-year-old daughter, and I was not even allowed to send her a note saying "Happy Thanksgiving, I love you". I had to go over a month without even seeing her. My daughter is the joy of my life. Previously to this, I always spent at least 4 to 5 hours with her every single day of her life. It broke my heart to go from this to a point where I wasn't even allowed to see if her or contact her in anyway.

My wife raised an army of supporters who harassed me and my twins (from first marriage) on a daily basis. Life had become so difficult for them that I had to pull my twins out of the Christian school where they attended. My wife's restraining order also made it so I wasn't even allowed to take my kids to school or pick them up or attend any school activities because I could not come within 500 feet of the school or my daughter.

Long story short, my wife's world came crashing down when I responded in court with witness testimony and evidence proving that she was guilty of 23 counts of perjury. It was clear that she was not just mistaken with her facts, she blatantly lied in order to take my daughter away from me.

Several months and about $30,000 later, my wife came to me and apologized for her actions. She admitted to lying to me and destroying my entire life in order to take my daughter from me. One thing led to another and she eventually dropped her lawsuit, and I took her back into my life. I had to get a new apartment because she had kicked me out of our home. Eventually, she came to the realization that she couldn't afford the house and had to sell it by way of a short sale.

Earlier this year, she realized that her actions were not rational and she doesn't behave like an emotionally healthy person. She finally listened to me about her mental problems and went to a therapist to discuss the possibility of her having serious mental health issues. Eventually, she was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and was placed in a partial hospitalization program for about six weeks.

I was hoping that the hospitalization and the DBT program she was in would help, but overall things have just gotten worse. She engages in the same behaviors the same verbal abuse, and usually denies that he's doing anything wrong. It gets to the point where I cannot tolerate anymore and I threaten to kick her out of the house, then she cries and apologizes and then we repeat the whole cycle all over again.

Although she has been living here, she still had a bunch of her belongings and furniture at her old house that was scheduled to be short sold. The timeline for the sale moved up several weeks without notice, and she asked me to drop everything in my life to help her pack up and move everything out of the house and hold a garage sale etc.

As requested, I dropped everything, took off of work, and worked round-the-clock to get the house ready for sale. She continually verbally abused me the entire time, and every time I was about to walk out and leave her to deal with the house herself, she would cry and tell me that she was sorry and needed my help. The move took everything I had emotionally and physically. I was a complete mess by the time the week was over. Most nights, I only got two or three hours of sleep.

After everything was done, I told her that I was completely behind with my life and I had a bunch of stuff that I need to get caught up with. I started going through the list of things that I needed her help with, and she told me that she didn't want to help. She works part-time as a substitute teacher and I asked her for her to help me on a particular day to help me recover from how messed up my life was from dropping everything for her. She told me that she would rather divorce me then give up a day of substitute teaching to help me out. She said this fully realizing that I had just given up a week of my life and that the only reason I need your help is because I was helping her.

Later that night, she told me that I am trying to control her and that I expect her to be a robot and that she was right one year ago when she accused me of all these terrible things and told everybody what a horrible person I am. She took back her apology for her accusations and once again, stood by her initial accusations of me being a monster.

During the first for seven years of our marriage, I suffered from terrible migraines that were so bad that sometimes I couldn't even get out of bed. After she had kicked me out of the house last year, my headaches completely went away. I was completely cured of my headaches. When she returned into my life the headaches came back, but only when she would engage in abusive or rational behavior. When she is around me now, I am in such extreme pain, that it is almost impossible for me to even get out of bed.

When I asked her to leave a few days ago, she begged for just a couple of days to plan out where she was going to go. I foolishly let her stay while she was working up a temporary housing situation. During this time, she has continued to say bizarre things, showing she has no clue about what's really going on in the world around her. She has tried to not wear out her welcome by offering to go get me food or go pick up a coffee at Starbucks for me during most mornings.

I have become so physically ill by her presence in my home that I still haven't been able to catch up on life, nor have I been able to go to work. I made the mistake of telling her that she can stay as long as she is helpful so she can help me get caught up with everything that I'm so far behind with in my life.

She told me she would help, but first she wants to spend more days substitute teaching, because that's what makes her happy. I explained to her that the only reason I am behind and need her help is because of her.  She then told me that I am uncaring because I don't kill care about her happiness and I need to appreciate everything she does for me.

The truth is, I do not appreciate what she is doing to me right now. She is making my life miserable. She is abusive to me and the kids. She urinates and defecates on my furniture. This past year she has cost me over $20,000. She has wrecked my car twice and blamed me.  She is destroyed my carpeting, furniture, and some very expensive computer equipment. She has destroyed a $3000 suit. She has also broken my foot twice this year (first time was an accident, second time was not). I started working on making new friends after she took all my friends away from me last year. She has spread more trash talk about me to our new church friends so that none of them will even look me in the eye anymore.

She has admitted to all of the stuff I have just listed. She is comfortable with telling me that she's sorry and that I should just get over it.

I know that she is messed up in the head. I know that she can't help herself. Knowing this doesn't make my life any easier. I am sick and tired of trying to explain to somebody that is not normal to lie and take somebody's daughter away from them, and then apologize, and then tell them that it was justified all along. I can't deal with this "I love you, I hate you" roller coaster anymore. I don't know what to do.

Whoever is reading this please do not attack me. I'm tired of people judging me. I have lost all my friends. I'm tired of people not believing me and making me justify myself. If you feel the need to attack me, judge me, or tell me that this is all my fault, please just don't respond to this. I need practical help so I can try and survive another day in this twisted world that I call home.

[Mutt]

I'm happy that you are reaching out. You're asking for help. I'm so sorry about the terrible things that you are going through. You have a lot on your plate.

I'm sorry about the migraines and that you are having difficulties getting out of bed. You feel isolated and emotionally exhausted with her behaviors.

You went through a lot Unlikelytarget . Your spouse is triggered, that's why she's acting out. Feelings are facts to a borderline. Not facts followed by feelings. She's wired differently and to calm her down it helps to change the strategy.

[hope2727]

Oh god I am so sorry you are enduring this. I would never attack you. Please please know that you are worthy and deserving of a peaceful happy life. DO not give up on yourself or your life. Come and post and let us know how you are doing. I am grateful for your post as it lets me know just how bad it can get.  My situation is not nearly as severe as that. NO judgement just support. 

[Unlikelytarget]

Thanks for offering support.  I feel lonely... .because I am.  my BPD wife took all my friends from me.  We made new ones together (my mistake) and she "innocently" took them away too.

I asked her to leave last night and (for the first time), she complied without an argument.  She came back today to pick up her son (my stepson) and a bunch of her stuff.  I asked what she needed (via text) so she would not come inside the house... .I am afraid to have her come in my house.  A year ago, the house was messy from me working on school poster projects with the kids and cake decorating stuff (I made her a birthday cake that was an exact replica of a Packers helmet - took me a week).

She acted like she was taking pictures of the cake and the posters, but she was actually taking pictures of the mess, which she later submitted as court evidence to take my daughter away because I am "human filth".  The house is messy right now (because of her), so I don't want her to take pictures for evidence until the house is clean (should be by tomorrow).

My wife was clever and is staying with her son's best friend.  His mom spoils the kids, takes them out to eat, and buys our kids $20+ worth of toys every time they visit.  Last week, she gave my daughter an American Girl Doll.  The downside it isn't the most wholesome environment.  Her son is disrespectful, uses foul language, and rules the house.  He sleeps in the master suite.  They watch age-inappropriate movies without asking our permission.  A couple months ago, my son watched The Hunger Games at their house.  I do not think that movie is appropriate for my 10 year old kids.

Anyway, so my wife came to pick up my stepson to go to ":)isneyland House" and he didn't want to go.  I hugged hi, gave him a Lego set as a "Going away" gift, and told him I love him.  Last time when we were separated (via restraining order).  My wife told him that I abandoned them and didn't want to see him anymore.

I told our seven year old daughter to go outside and say "hello" to mommy before she left.  My daughter refused and told me she doesn't want to go to her mom's friend's house.  I kept demanding that my daughter say something to her mommy (largely because I don't want accusations that I am keeping them apart or that I am poisoning my daughter's mind).  She ran outside screamed "Hi" and ran back inside.

This whole thing is very difficult and confusing for me.  By nature, I am a very giving, loving, sacrificing, and forgiving person.  I grew up with a mom who had BPD tendencies and my dad was a severe alcoholic.  I have realized over the past year or so that my behaviors are extremely codependent.

So, what's the right answer?  She acts selfishly and abusively.  I want that to change.  Years of couple's counseling taught me that I am supposed to modify my behavior because she only acts that way because I am not making her happy.  She complained in therapy that I raise my voice at her after she is abusive to me.  Instead of dealing with her abuse, I was given instructions how to respond appropriately when she is abusive.  When I asked, "What about her? What about her changing her abusive behavior?"  I was told, "She's trying her best and she has a lot on her plate right now.  Why don't you just worry about what you need to do?"

Okay... .so I am with an abusive spouse.  My trying to modify her abusive behavior is codependent and potentially abusive.  She will not stop her behavior.  Most of the time, she doesn't even see it.  I posted a "Basic Family Rights" poster (taken from "The verbally Abusive Man: Can He Change?" in our kitchen.  Everyone in the house agreed and signed it (including her), but she violates it every day.

So, if I'm not supposed to change her (including "Helping" her change), what are my options?  Take the abuse or tell her to "Take a hike"?  What do I do when she goes through these horrible phases where she is extremely abusive every single day for WEEKS?  She usually apologizes within 24 hours (appears very sincere), then does it again and again.

Sure, it's nice to hear an apology, but she thinks that I should "get over it" and it should not longer affect me because she said she was sorry.  I don't want to be unforgiving, but I cannot handle being tortured on a daily basis, even if she is sorry.

In response to the comment that she is acting this way becasue she is being triggered.  I agree that has something to do with it.  So, do I try to create a trigger-free environment for her?  This seems much like the prison I lived in for seven years.  I have an MBA and 20 years work experience, but she made me stay home with the kids so she could substitute teach part time.  If I did not comply, she said she would leave me and take my daughter away forever (BTW, this is exactly what she tried to do last year, but failed).

Is there any reasonable way through this?  My emotional, mental, and physical health is rapidly declining.  I have reverted back to a place of responding to her out of fear.  I don't like what it is doing to me.  Is there a path to reconciliation?  what does that look like?  Is there a way that I can coexist with her without her changing at all (insulate myself emotionally)?

[Mutt]

I understand.  I agree you can't help her change.

Change comes from you. Change doesn't come from someone else.

I don't think that you can have a trigger free environment, you can choose to radically accept certain things with her. BPD is a part of her personality. Her reality to her is as real as your reality is to you.

About a year ago, my wife, who suffers from borderline personality disorder, flipped out on me and filed for divorce. We were going through a marriage restoration class with our church, and she had just signed a covenant with the group that she would not even discuss divorce while we were going through the workshop. Not only did she do this, she blindsided me with divorce papers.

In order to justify her actions, she made wild accusations against me, including abuse, stalking, tampering with her bank accounts, and much, much more.

She then personally contacted every friend I have had over the last seven years and spread lies about me to them in order to completely destroyed my reputation and ensure I had no emotional support during the divorce.

When I say trigger. I want to look at your first post. A bordeline's Kryptonite is fear of abandonment. She's scared to death of abandonment and she's acting out. She filters anxiety and stress differently than you. Or lack thereof said filters.

What triggers her fear of abandonment at home? She pre-emptively filed for divorce because she feels like she's going to be abandoned.

[Unlikelytarget]

I struggle with this "Radical Acceptance" as far as my BPD wife is concerned and what that actually means in life... .practically speaking.  I have always separated out the person from the behavior.  I always loved (and even liked) my wife during all the years of abuse.  She was nice to everyone except me.  I didn't hate her for this... .I was actually jealous of her friends.  I wanted her to treat me how she treated them.

Now, it seems that my wife defines herself by her behavior.  To reject her behavior is to reject her.  If this is the case, we have a real problem.  I cannot "accept" her treating me and the kids this way.  I can't live in this silent prison with no friends, no spiritual advisor... .no one who understands.

The cycle has pretty much been like this:  When I let her move back in, I told her that my home has certain ground rules for respect.  I told her that she can't stay here if she continually violates the rules.  She liked the rules and agreed.

At first, when she broke a rule (e.g. told me I'm just doing something because I'm out to get her because she knows what I am REALLY thinking), she would eventually admit she made a "mistake", apologize and act like she actually felt remorse for her inappropriate behavior.

Lately, she would go through phases of violating all the family rules of respect, deny she did it, tell me I made her do it, blame her childhood, deflect by telling my what I am doing wrong, etc.  Up until this weekend, she would eventually come around and admit she was wrong.  She wouldn't really apologize... .she would just say she shouldn't have said or done something.

In my attempt to "Radically Accept" her and her behaviors, I find all I can do is tell her that she is hurting me and ask her to stop.  Lately, she hasn't stopped.  When this continues for weeks on end, I start to become physically il from all the emotional stress.  I get diarrhea, nausea, stomach cramps, and migraine headaches so severe that I can't see or get out of bed.

When I reach this point, I plead with her to stop or I'll have to ask her to leave for awhile, but she doesn't stop.

I see the problem here is that me asking her to leave triggers her and makes things worse.

I am really looking for productive solutions here.  She is taking away my health and emotional wellbeing.  I don't have the luxury of "being happy" or other such nonsense.  With her, my life is about survivor.

I see a psychologist who started seeing us as a couple several years ago (she quit seeing him before she was diagnosed).  after years of counseling, this Christian psychologist told me that my wife will never come close to meeting my emotional needs no matter what I do.  He also hinted that she will never be happy or satisfied, no matter what.  He told me that it's my decision whether to pursue a divorce, but he will fully support me if I choose to do so.  How often do you hear that from your Christian Marriage Counselor?

After that day, the agreed strategy between me and my psychologist was to merely get my wife to stop being abusive.  Forget marital bliss.  Forget happiness.  He said, "We just need to get her to behave!"  We made the mistake of telling her how her behavior negatively impacts the family and it is in her own best self-interests to treat people with respect.  She stormed out of the office that day and filed for divorce.

So I ask, what does healthy "radical acceptance" look like?  Someone explain the world where my wife and I are under one roof, she feels accepted (not triggered) and I am not abused to the point of physical disability.

[Mutt]

After that day, the agreed strategy between me and my psychologist was to merely get my wife to stop being abusive.

First off, I'm real sorry about the physical pain and discomforts you're going through. That's tough

Secondly, You have gone through a lot of strife in your marriage. My heart goes out to you and your family.

Lastly. I have a question for you. You're a mentally healthy person right? You're wife is mentally ill. That's fact.

I don't understand the logic with your P. Are you trying to have her act and behave as a person that doesn't have a mental illness?

[Unlikelytarget]

No, I am not mentally healthy.  Several years after I was married, I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder.  I faced multiple hospitalizations and went through dozens of different medications in order to "make my wife happy".  She blamed all of our relationship, financial, and family problems on me because I am "mentally ill".  She said I don't deserve respect, human rights, or to have my feeling acknowledged as real.

I never had any problems with mental illness until I was married to her.  Before that, I was an Army Officer, obtained a top-raked MBA and had a job as a pharmaceutical executive.

After my wife kicked me out of the house last year, my psychiatirist noted that someone with bipolar disorder should have spiraled out of control into an emotional episode after all she put me through.  I was completely even keel and totally emotionally balanced.  My psychiatrist has begun to question my diagnosis and has taken me off all bipolar medication.  I have had no episodes.  The worst thing that has happened in migraines and mild depression in response to the abuse I have been dealing with.

As far as my "expectations" are concerned, I wasn't stating that I expect a mentally ill person not to act like they are mentally ill.  I am really asking if it is possible to somehow coexist with my wife.  If so, how?

[Mutt]

Hi,

You're a man that deserves respect. You served in the military and your a captain of industry. You earned that on your own merits. I respect that.

You're a smart man, that's struggling

Let's look at what's on the table.

You went through a tremendous amount of emotional, physical and financial abuse.

You want to salvage the marriage. You want to change course.

There's only one solution here. It's going to take a lot of effort to co-exist and it can happen but you need to dig real deep. You're going to need to change and learn why your spouse is triggered by communicating differently and understanding that this is a disorder that's emotional based.

Her feelings are facts. Change the way you communicate with her.

I'm sorry but there's no magic pill here. There are different ways to communicate with a BPD, validation, SET, PUVAS it's going to take effort and time.

[Rapt Reader]

Hello, UnlikelyTarget & 

I'm so very sorry for all of the pain and trauma you have been going through with your wife... .I can see how what you have been dealing with is frustrating, hurtful and difficult to deal with. Mutt has given you a lot to think about, and he is right with his guidance for you to learn how to change the way you communicate with your wife in order to figure out a way to make things better.

Have you had the chance to check out the Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner Board yet? You will find many links to the right-hand side of that Board that will have the information Mutt has been mentioning to you. A good place to start is here: Lessons for members who are staying in their relationships.

I think that taking a deep breath and giving yourself some time to read could really help you make some changes that could make things better for you... .It's true that we cannot change our BPD loved ones, but many of us on this site have learned that once we make some changes in how we communicate with them, all of their buttons stop being pushed, and then they in turn change the way they react to us. And then things can start to get better.

Let us know what you think about all of that information, OK? And when you feel inclined, feel free to not only read all the threads on the Staying Board that are written by members in relationships like yours, but also post your own over there so that the Staying members can give you the benefit of their experiences and insights. I'll be looking for you over there, UnlikelyTarget... .

[Unlikelytarget]

I thought I would share my first attempt at (my version) or "Radical Acceptance".  I have been quickly reading a ton of material (not just here) and I really took to heart what Mutt said about expectations re: her behavior.

I invited my dBPDw to the house and told her I wanted to talk about what has been going with her, us, how she thinks I have treated her, etc.

Instead of my usual expecting her to be rational or trying to convince her to think rationally (I used to teach workshops in debate and negotiation, so I am usually very adamant about pointing out illogical thought).  This time, I started the conversation with the full expectation that she was going to say bizarre, nonsensical, irrational things.  I expected her to say hurtful things and for her to blame me for her mistakes and problems.

She did not disappoint!  Instead of getting angry... .I mostly listened to her.  I kept telling myself "In her screwed up world, feelings are facts, 1+1=Z, she feels no accountability for her actions."  Every now and then, she would hit a raw nerve, but I would tell myself, "She is mentally ill and this is her reality.  In her world I am mentally ill.  I am the narcissist. The kids are narcissists.  Her family and all her friends are all the one's who cant take ownership of their actions.  We are all the problem.

Understand that I only validated her feelings.  I listened and asked clarifying questions.  I really wanted to understand how her (twisted) mind works so I can better avoid triggers.  I took responsibility for things that I felt responsible for and remained silent on the rest.

It was so difficult because she said so many hurtful things and really put me in an impossible situation... .I'm still not sure how to get out of this long term.

She (still) admits to being very abusive to me for the first seven years of our marriage.  That phase ended when she filed a restraining order against me and filed for divorce.  Back then, she took away every special moment we had together by telling me she lived in TOTAL HELL with me for seven years.  She didn't say it once, but several times.  In an attempt to rescue our marriage, for our seventh anniversary, I bought plane tickets and a hotel for a weekend marriage retreat in San Diego (her favorite city in the world... .she got a tattoo to remind her of this).  At the last minute, she told me she would only go if she didn't have to go to the marriage retreat.  She then sued for divorce.  I spent our seventh anniversary in a divorce attorney's office.

Anyway... .I took her back and we have been together for 10 months.  Two days ago, she told me that the last 10 months were worse than the "seven years of total hell."  I was completely taken back by this.  She reaffirmed her feelings today.  I just listened.

When I took her back, she admitted to lying to me throughout our entire marriage.  She promised the lying was over.  She admitted that her messed up thinking made her feel like she had to lie.  I have worked very hard this past 10 months to have regular "check-ins" with her to make sure she is happy.  I didn't want her to feel pressured to placate me, so we made a dozen or so appointments with our pastor where we openly shared what was going on.  At the end of the appointments, she said she had no complaints against me.  I also had her meet with the pastor without me, so she would feel free to be open and honest.

Today, she told me she had been lying to me about her happiness since last spring and it's my fault because she said I would get mad at her if she were honest.  She said I never let her talk about her feelings and get mad if she does.  She asked, "When have you ever let me complain or share my feelings when you haven't gotten mad?"

She was really upset when I pointed out two times within this past week.  She shrugged it off and went back to blaming me for the fact that she lies to me.

The one thing that confused me was that she was saying that she has been miserable for 10 months, but only lying to me about it for about five months.  She explained that five months ago, she was honest when I "Checked-in" with her and she claimed she was happy and not miserable.  Today it dawned on her that she was retroactively miserable the entire time.  So she is angry because I have made her miserable for 10 months, even though she has only been aware of this for a couple days.

I started down a bad road by trying to comprehend her bizarre logic and what the future ramifications might me.  Now, she has free reign to retroactively be angry for something... .anything she wants to.  No matter what I do or say today... .No matter what SHE does or says today doesn't matter.  She has given herself permission to re-write history and there is nothing I can do about it.

When I started asking her "Walk me through how this works... ." she got very defensive and hostile.  I believe that somewhere in her mind she knew that what she was saying was absolutely ridiculous.

I shifted focus to telling her that I am terribly sorry that she has (retroactively) felt so bad for 10 months.  I was being honest when I told her that I never intended to hurt her and if I knew she was hurting, I would have done things differently.  She started telling my that it is ridiculous that I didn't know what was going on.  If I had eyes, I should have known.  I kept apologizing for not even trying to discuss what was making her so miserable.  She kept beating me over the head with "You should have known.  It's so obvious."

I finally said, "Wait.  You told me you weren't aware of how miserable you were until just now.  If you didn't know, there is no way I could have known."

I was SHOCKED that she conceded that I couldn't have known.  She is still upset for the retroactive misery I caused, but I am happy to report that I didn't scream or yell... .I didn't scold or lecture.  Usually I stop her when she says slightly irrational things.  Letting her drone on is kind of scary.  I am getting insight into how messed up her thinking really is.

Not sure where to go from here... .

[ReluctantSurvivor]

Well Unlikelytarget, I would consider your talk to be a small success.  I too had little success when trying to get logical or rational explinations about my exBPDgf's feelings.  Being able to insulate yourself from her madness and just listen should be helpful, I would think this would be considered valudation.  Glad to hear that you won a battle by not fighting.

[waverider]

First of you need to define in your own mind why you want to be with this person.

this is not that same as telling you not to, but rather to be clear about what it is you get out of it, then you can start owning it as a choice. Once it is owned YOUR choice, rather than obligation then you are in  better place to define your own boundaries, and move forward.

The idea is that the longer you stay in the undecided category the longer you are treading water and not getting anywhere. a commitment to stay increases the chance of it happening successfully. Even though it may sound hypocritical, a commitment to stay can be reassessed sometime in the future. It is the perception of commitment in your own mind you need.

  Glad to hear that you won a battle by not fighting.

This is because most battles need never happen

pwBPD are often miserable, they dont know why so they blame whoever is the closest. Doesn't mean it is the true reason. They would be equally miserable on their own.

Listening to the emotions and filtering out the actual words is necessary even though it is hard, otherwise you get sidetracked by the words.

[Unlikelytarget]

I guess we all need to feel validated whether or not truth is on our side.

I just need to be careful of sliding down a slippery slope.  She beat me down so badly before that I had to be hospitalized for depression three or four times (I lost count).  The most recent time, she visited me in the hospital to let me know she was kicking me out.  I was so heavily sedated that I had no recollection of the conversation when they released me.  When I came back home, she asked "what are you doing here?"

She demanded that I left.  The only reason she decided to let me stay was if I took 100% blame for everything wrong in her life, admitted that I abuse her, and never EVER talk about my feelings whatsoever.

She was relentless with her unleashing on me every day.  She isolated me from all outside contact and would not allow me to work, have hobbies or friends.  If I questioned it, she would take my daughter away from me forever (alas, she tried).

Life became so unbearable that I had a full blown panic attack at our kids' school picnic.  That's when she decided that she can't love me for who I am because I embarrass her.

I want to thank everyone here who has listened to me and responded.  Right now, this is the only validation I can get in my life... .

[Mutt]

Hi Unlikelytarget,

I'm happy to hear you took it to heart.

I am usually very adamant about pointing out illogical thought).

I'm guilty of this as well. Although I didn't get professional training things need to make logical sense for me. I used to pick apart my spouse with her illogical thoughts and behaviors. She taught me many life lessons.

You know that you are dealing with borderline personality disorder. Not everyone one in life is so "cookie cutter".  You were applying logical thought and reason as you and most people understand against a distorted belief system. Understanding how borderline personality works by reading, you can learn to de-personalize the behaviors. It's not personal against you. You may get triggered now by her behaviors and in the she gets triggered, it makes things worst.

As much as my spouse would like to meet me in the middle, she can't. She's disordered.  So, I choose to be indifferent to her behaviors and not take things to heart.

We are all the problem.

You're starting to understand. You are not all the problem. At the center of BPD is abandonment trauma, abandonment depression, the core wound. If she's not in therapy and on the road to recovery, instead of healing this wound she re-feeds it. She's really reliving her trauma from the past on you and the family. That's the point that I was getting at, it's not about you Unlikelytarget.

The logic is there once you comprehend the disorder. I chose to radically accept my ex as who she is - a person with feelings just like I and disordered.

Understand that I only validated her feelings.

Validating someone's feelings goes a long way. Simply listening and being indifferent isn't validation per se.  Feeling = Facts. Feelings before facts. I'll use a clip from your post and show you what I mean. Let's pretend this is your wife.

I struggle with this "Radical Acceptance" as far as my BPD wife is concerned and what that actually means in life... .practically speaking.

I'm sorry that you feel frustrated and that you're struggling with Radical Acceptance. I'm sure you'll get better at it with more practice.

Saying nothing is avoidant. Communicating differently in way that she understands will smooth the edges of the relationship. Validate what she's feeling.

She then sued for divorce.  I spent our seventh anniversary in a divorce attorney's office.

Anyway... .I took her back and we have been together for 10 months.  Two days ago, she told me that the last 10 months were worse than the "seven years of total hell."  I was completely taken back by this.  She reaffirmed her feelings today.  I just listened.

I'm sorry to hear you spent your wedding anniversary in an attorney's office. That's a terrible feeling.

There's a bit of gap in the information. This is pure speculation. What is fact is that a borderline has difficulties coping with negative feelings like shame and guilt. Her abandonment fears were triggered (perceived or real) and she filed. The timing is bad with the anniversary.

She's likely feeling pretty bad about this. You took her back and she knows that it hurt you. She has to see you day to day with these bad feelings. So by saying the last 10 months were the worst, she's taking those negative feelings and actions and projecting them on you by blaming you.

No matter what SHE does or says today doesn't matter.  She has given herself permission to re-write history and there is nothing I can do about it.

We've talked about one component of BPD (projection) another is re-writing history or reality. This is called dissociation. She alters reality to match her out of place feelings. Again, this an emotional based disorder.

You know what transpired in your reality. You can trust your intuition and hang on to that. You can choose to trigger your spouse with trying to explain that she's wrong and her logic doesn't make sense. Adding fuel to the fire. Reality is open to debate. Emotions and feelings are real.

When I started asking her "Walk me through how this works... ." she got very defensive and hostile.  I believe that somewhere in her mind she knew that what she was saying was absolutely ridiculous.

I'm sorry but it's not ridiculous to her. It's very real to her. She's acting defensive because you're calling her on it, you're triggering her feelings. You can "radically accept" that she dissociated. You can also choose not to dig your heals in. If you keep calling her on her dissociations everyone's triggered.

I am happy to report that I didn't scream or yell... .I didn't scold or lecture.  Usually I stop her when she says slightly irrational things.

  

[Unlikelytarget]

First of you need to define in your own mind why you want to be with this person.

Based on what I have read, I'm not much different from others.  #1 I think it's best for my D7.  I don't want her growing up with my dBPDw 50% of the time.  We have an understanding that would be the parrenting arangement... .or it will be a fight to the death.  #2 I am codependent.  I can find no other rational reason why I am still here.  After my dBPDw kicked me out, I was totally free.  SInce the damage was already done, co-parenting wouldn't have been as confusing to my D7 as this together - apart - together - apart parrenting cycle.  I don't want to displace her twice in the same year.  If I wasn't codependent, I think the rational choice would have been to remain apart.  I admit it. 

Once it is owned YOUR choice, rather than obligation then you are in  better place to define your own boundaries, and move forward.

I like this.  At least I don't have to hate myself for being codependent.

It is the perception of commitment in your own mind you need.

It reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw on an old VW Beetle; "You can't prepare for war and peace at the same time."

Listening to the emotions and filtering out the actual words is necessary even though it is hard, otherwise you get sidetracked by the words.

That's some of the best advice I have heard in a while.


A little update... .I had to run a two hour errand to pick up a prescription and she watched all the kids for me.  I was running late on the way back and she took my S10 to hockey practice with his twin sister and our D7 too.  I made dinner for us all.  She hung out and didn't want to leave but she had to give a friend.

The interesting twist came when I got a demanding text from my dBPDw's mom saying "I want to know how MY family is doing".

This woman is borderline psychotic.  I am convinced that her abuse is a huge contributing factor to my dBPDw's condition.  This woman has hated me from the day she met me (not even my wife knows why).  She has pressured my wife to divorce me for years.  If my dBPDw goes too long without talking to her, the woman sends the police to my house and tries to have me arrested (because if her daughter doesn't call her regularly, she must be a prisoner).  When dBPDw called off the divorce this year, she harassed her with text messages and drunken phone calls saying "YOU PROMISED!  WHAT ABOUT YOUR PROMISE!"  I later found out was her "Promise" to divorce me.

Eventually, her mom disowned her because she wouldn't divorce me, so now the woman harasses me with her demands to see her grandchildren because "It's her right!"

With my dBPDw's permission, I sent a text saying "She isn't living here"  We both got a laugh out of it.  Hopefully, this woman is out of my hair for the time being (she hated me because I was with her daughter, so now she has no reason to bother me).  This also communicated to her that I am not the reason her daughter does not want to speak with her... .The real reason is she is an abusive psychopath.  Tonight I can sleep well knowing there is at least one less lunatic blaming me for their life problems.

It was a surreal bonding experience... .discussing with my wife how someone else's behavior is strange and irrational.

[waverider]

You will need to look into how to deal with FOO (family of origin) issues and the Karpman triangulation issues that occur between yourself , your wife, and her family. This can be a toxic dynamic that needs to be avoided.