How or when do you have the talk?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I wasn't sure where to post this or how to even approach it.

I have all of these mixed feelings. I feel like I have been pretty open and honest on these boards. I so badly want to share some of the things that I have shared here with my husband. I don't want him coming to this site but I would like for him to know how I feel about some things. The problem is that whenever I try to even tiptoe around the subject, he gets weird or isn't in the mood to talk or makes it about him.

At one point, I was trying to tell him something and he told me that HE was codependent. I was like, "Um, do you know what it means to be codependent? Codependent means that you help other people to the detriment of yourself. It is being a helper and a fixer and a caretaker. So he says, "Oh, I guess I am not codependent then." He has been telling me that he is codependent for a while. He wanted to read the book "Codependent No More" and would go on and on about it. It took me a while to work up the courage to tell him, "Um, no, you are not codependent. You can barely take care of yourself and you certainly don't put other people ahead of you."

And then, I tried to say something and he had to go do something else. I tried to get him to hang out with me and talk but he had to go to the bathroom and then he had to play his computer game. And then he got all p*ssy because he came and sat by me and said something like, "Well, you acted like you wanted to talk so here I am." I told him that what I wanted to say had escaped me. He used that to take a dig at me and said, "It must not have been that important because nothing ever escapes you." Then, he says that now he is going to spend the rest of the day worrying about what I was going to say.

I so badly want to communicate with him how much he has hurt me. I so badly want him to realize that he can't turn me into his person ___ and have me continue to act like everything is okay. But I do. I go through most of my days acting more or less normal. I keep things to myself and I take care of the kids and I make sure all of the bills are paid. Oh, man, I have to ramble about that for a second. We were late on one of our bills because of when pay day fell. I watched the bank account to see the minute my check hit so I could pay bills. I was talking to him at lunch and said something about being so worried and upset about that bill being late. He says, "I worry about that stuff too." Um, no he doesn't. He doesn't keep track of when we need to add minutes to our cell phones. He doesn't stay up and watch for a pay check to hit so that bills can be paid on time. I called him on it and his response was, "I worry more now than I used to." Um, what a bunch of hogwash. I so badly want to let him have it and point out all of his craziness and inconsistencies.

I so badly want to ask him, "What friggin' planet do you live on? I don't know of any place where your behavior is acceptable. You want me to accept your behavior and simply take whatever I can get with a friggin' smile. Are you really that friggin' stupid?"

And, I want to get to a point where I can say one of two things. I want to be able to say, "I don't give a rat's ___ whether or not you are committed to this family because I am making plans to leave you." OR I want to be able to say, "I don't care if you are committed to this family because I am going to take charge and you are going to become my little b**ch." None of those things are right or good but I so badly want to let him have it. He cannot be bothered with committing to anything. When I have tried to push for anything, he will tell me that I need to give him more time and that I am too demanding. Um, hello, we have been together for almost 18 years. I have given him chance after chance after chance. Heck, it feels like the minute he said "I do" his behavior changed to "I don't."

Ah, what a nice little ramble. Any advice on how or when or whether it is even possible to have the talk would be appreciated?

[vortex of confusion]

I wasn't sure where to post this or how to even approach it.

I have all of these mixed feelings. I feel like I have been pretty open and honest on these boards. I so badly want to share some of the things that I have shared here with my husband. I don't want him coming to this site but I would like for him to know how I feel about some things. The problem is that whenever I try to even tiptoe around the subject, he gets weird or isn't in the mood to talk or makes it about him.

At one point, I was trying to tell him something and he told me that HE was codependent. I was like, "Um, do you know what it means to be codependent? Codependent means that you help other people to the detriment of yourself. It is being a helper and a fixer and a caretaker. So he says, "Oh, I guess I am not codependent then." He has been telling me that he is codependent for a while. He wanted to read the book "Codependent No More" and would go on and on about it. It took me a while to work up the courage to tell him, "Um, no, you are not codependent. You can barely take care of yourself and you certainly don't put other people ahead of you."

And then, I tried to say something and he had to go do something else. I tried to get him to hang out with me and talk but he had to go to the bathroom and then he had to play his computer game. And then he got all p*ssy because he came and sat by me and said something like, "Well, you acted like you wanted to talk so here I am." I told him that what I wanted to say had escaped me. He used that to take a dig at me and said, "It must not have been that important because nothing ever escapes you." Then, he says that now he is going to spend the rest of the day worrying about what I was going to say.

I so badly want to communicate with him how much he has hurt me. I so badly want him to realize that he can't turn me into his person ___ and have me continue to act like everything is okay. But I do. I go through most of my days acting more or less normal. I keep things to myself and I take care of the kids and I make sure all of the bills are paid. Oh, man, I have to ramble about that for a second. We were late on one of our bills because of when pay day fell. I watched the bank account to see the minute my check hit so I could pay bills. I was talking to him at lunch and said something about being so worried and upset about that bill being late. He says, "I worry about that stuff too." Um, no he doesn't. He doesn't keep track of when we need to add minutes to our cell phones. He doesn't stay up and watch for a pay check to hit so that bills can be paid on time. I called him on it and his response was, "I worry more now than I used to." Um, what a bunch of hogwash. I so badly want to let him have it and point out all of his craziness and inconsistencies.

I so badly want to ask him, "What friggin' planet do you live on? I don't know of any place where your behavior is acceptable. You want me to accept your behavior and simply take whatever I can get with a friggin' smile. Are you really that friggin' stupid?"

And, I want to get to a point where I can say one of two things. I want to be able to say, "I don't give a rat's ___ whether or not you are committed to this family because I am making plans to leave you." OR I want to be able to say, "I don't care if you are committed to this family because I am going to take charge and you are going to become my little b**ch." None of those things are right or good but I so badly want to let him have it. He cannot be bothered with committing to anything. When I have tried to push for anything, he will tell me that I need to give him more time and that I am too demanding. Um, hello, we have been together for almost 18 years. I have given him chance after chance after chance. Heck, it feels like the minute he said "I do" his behavior changed to "I don't."

Ah, what a nice little ramble. Any advice on how or when or whether it is even possible to have the talk would be appreciated?

[Mutt]

Hi vortex of confusion,

18 years is a long time and I'm sorry for what you had to go through  I can read your suffering in your words and in-between the lines.

"It must not have been that important because nothing ever escapes you." Then, he says that now he is going to spend the rest of the day worrying about what I was going to say.

I'm going to take a guess he is projecting and he's likely the one that "nothing ever escapes"?

Having said that, I think that you know he's going to deflect the pain and the hurt that he has caused you. I don't think that there's a right or a wrong here.

He may get triggered and act out. Be prepared for that. Joe Carver's article on the site says to act boring.

- Gradually become more boring, talk less, share less feelings and opinions. The goal is almost to bore "The Borderline" to lessen the emotional attachment, at the same time not creating a situation which would make you a target.

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a110.htm

I suggest getting your feelings out. In therapy, on this board or both.

[vortex of confusion]

I suggest getting your feelings out. In therapy, on this board or both.

Thank you so much for the input Mutt!

I have been getting a lot of stuff out on these boards. I had a 10 minute phone consultation with a counselor and am trying to get to a point where I can afford to make an appointment. I have gotten another job and my own bank account and am trying to do stuff on the down low.

I will work on being more boring. :-)

[SickofMe]

Are you leaving him, or undecided?

[Mutt]

Hi vortex of confusion,

I understand the financial difficulties in and after the r/s. The little money I had my ex cleaned out before she left.

I took advantage of the services offered at work with therapy. I'm lucky it was there. I leaned on these boards a lot as well.

I'm happy that you're trying to get some help in T. Boring is good at home and I understand the feelings with not having your voice heard and I'm sorry. Perhaps write a Dear John letter as a thread. A letter to him here and share it.

You have a voice here.

[vortex of confusion]

Are you leaving him, or undecided?

I am leaning towards leaving him but know that it will take a lot of time and energy on my part to make things as peaceful as possible. There is a lot of ground work that I need to do before I can make the decision for certain. I tend to be a very logical and rational person. He may not care if he hurts other people but that is not how I operate. I want to make things as easy on the kids as possible. My 4 daughters are still pretty young and range in age from 5 to 13 so I don't want to do anything too rash. In my own weird way, I want to protect him when I leave. What I mean is that I want to make sure that he is a little farther along in his 12 step program and has a little bit more therapy. I see it as a gift to our kids. If I were to leave him right now, all hell would break loose and it would be very traumatic on everyone involved.

I go back and forth between all of the boards because the staying board gives me tools to help me cope with the day to day stuff so I can try not to make things worse. The leaving board is a great place for me to find validation for a lot of the things that I am feeling. It seems that in order to stay I have to keep some feelings and thoughts at bay. But, in order for me to make sense of things, I think that I really do need to think and feel the things that I have tried to avoid or take out on others. My goal is to work on feeling my feelings and detach. I need to detach from him and the relationship. In my opinion, there is nothing left of our relationship. I want to keep him as a friend for the sake of the kids but that is about it.

[SickofMe]

I'd make sure you find a T who is well-versed in PD and/or abusive r/s.  Especially if you go into therapy rational and objective.  I know it sounds counter-intuitive but sometimes we can be almost TOO intellectual (intellectualization is a pretty high-level adaptive/coping mechanism) and it could lead the T down the wrong path.  I mean only if you are prone to second-guessing or giving too much benefit of the doubt to others and ignoring your emotions which are probably wildly different from your thoughts. 

Depending on what kind of therapy you are interested in, the focus will be more or less on your thoughts vs. your feelings.  If your FOO stuff is abusive, I'd lean toward someone who can help you in the feeling arena bc you have likely learned to ignore yours.  A lot of people are big on cognitive/behavioral therapy these days bc of short-term treatment stipulations, and it can help a lot with anxiety, but doesn't address core issues nearly as much as other approaches.  18 years is a long time to stuff your feelings.

I'm not so sure there is anyway to out maneuver these people since they are at their root unstable and unpredictable, but being "boring" and not fanning the flames seems like a pretty good start.  If there is less emotional food for him to feed on, it could make it easier for him to let you go.

I'm sorry for what you are going through.  Leaving when you have kids is the worst feeling ever.  You are forced to behave normally to protect the kids, when the situation is anything but. 

[vortex of confusion]

Depending on what kind of therapy you are interested in, the focus will be more or less on your thoughts vs. your feelings.  If your FOO stuff is abusive, I'd lean toward someone who can help you in the feeling arena bc you have likely learned to ignore yours.  A lot of people are big on cognitive/behavioral therapy these days bc of short-term treatment stipulations, and it can help a lot with anxiety, but doesn't address core issues nearly as much as other approaches.  18 years is a long time to stuff your feelings.

I tend to lean towards cognitive therapy approaches. I have never cared for the feeling approach. I was in and out of counseling with my family over the years. Yes, there are FOO issues but I have found ways of dealing with that through boundaries and knowing different family members well enough to know how to deal with them. I feel like my behaviors within the relationship with my husband are totally out of character for me and don't really have a lot to do with FOO issues. 

I'm not so sure there is anyway to out maneuver these people since they are at their root unstable and unpredictable, but being "boring" and not fanning the flames seems like a pretty good start.  If there is less emotional food for him to feed on, it could make it easier for him to let you go.

I had an interesting talk with my mother in law this evening (his mom). I was talking to her about my husband's behavior and she said that he sounds just like her dad (my husband never knew him) and she said she knows how difficult it can be and that she learned to just leave her dad alone because he was prone to have outbursts and be moody over the silliest things. For me, it isn't about out maneuvering. It is about realizing that my husband has a disorder and finding a solution that is best for everybody involved. Will it be easy? Heck no! But, I know that I can rely on logic and being rational as long as I have an explanation and understanding of what is going on. I am not out to hurt my husband in any way shape or form. That is not who I am and I know that I could not live with myself if I deliberately hurt him or put him in a situation where he might hurt himself.

I'm sorry for what you are going through.  Leaving when you have kids is the worst feeling ever.  You are forced to behave normally to protect the kids, when the situation is anything but. 

No, the situation is NOT normal but I try not to focus on that. I try to focus on doing the best that I can while looking for solutions. I tend to be kind of slow and deliberate when I make big decisions.

[Isa_lala]

Vortex, I feel the same with my BF.

I would like so much to tell him how I feel and I cannot. I could but I can't reach the point where it will go out of my mouth. the reason is that as soon as I will stard to say what I have on my heart, he will feel attacked and will take every word as negative. He oftenr says that if I am not happy with him, I just have to date someone else.

and you know what? after 2 years with him, I very recently realized that we don't speak the same language. His thoughts and ways of seeing things are driven by his emotions. When I say something, he misinterprets it in the wrong way. It is really like if we were not speaking the same language at all!

Going to see a therapist together may help you both to communicate.

[vortex of confusion]

Going to see a therapist together may help you both to communicate.

I don't want to see a therapist with him. If I had the money for a therapist, I would go by myself and for myself. The reason is that I am pretty sure I know how things will go. He is the innocent victim that is a sex addict and has all of these problems. Everything is his fault. He will talk about how horrible a person he is and I will clam up because what I have to say will only make him feel worse. Plus, he says he can't/won't work on our relationship right now. He has to focus on his healing and his recovery. It is all about him and what he wants and what he needs. He can't commit to anything between us.

[clydegriffith]

I was never successful at having a talk to breakup because when i did she would always sucker me back in.

It took a drastic event to cut her out of my life.

[OutOfEgypt]

When I would confront my ex, after everywhere from months to years of exhaustion trying to "give her time", it would never go well.  It turned into a fight, and she basically told me to "shut up" and give her "space" to "figure it out on her own."  When we were going through the divorce, I explained to her why I thought there was something wrong with her, but it did nothing good.  It led to fights, crying, and ultimately more enmeshment.

I was with her for 14-15 years.

They aren't going to get it.  Their defenses are too deep and too engrained.  Anything that triggers their sense of shame and blame is going to immediately make those defenses go up.  They aren't even aware of doing it.  Go and read the 10 Beliefs the Keep you Stuck.  One of them is, "If I say it loud enough, they will hear me." 

If "telling them off" is what you want, like in the movies where you tell the person off and they sit there stunned as you walk away, satisfied, that isn't going to happen because they abhor closure.  It's going to trigger them, and then they are going to trigger (and confuse) you more.  And the enmeshment will continue.  Letting it go and walking away is really the only way to get the closure you seek.

If vindication is what you want, that will not come from them.  Ever.  It has to come from you as you give up these burdens and come to grips with the truth of everything that happened.  It comes through time and healing.

[vortex of confusion]

When I would confront my ex, after everywhere from months to years of exhaustion trying to "give her time", it would never go well.  It turned into a fight, and she basically told me to "shut up" and give her "space" to "figure it out on her own."  When we were going through the divorce, I explained to her why I thought there was something wrong with her, but it did nothing good.  It led to fights, crying, and ultimately more enmeshment.

I figured this out a long time ago. :-) I did spend some time a year or so ago attempting to be heard. It didn't work. It only made things worse. I forget how long ago it was but I tried to tell him that I was tired and needed help (around the house, with kids, etc.). I tried to talk to him as I would a normal person. I told him that there were times when I would think about going out in the garage and hanging myself just so he could find me. I told him that I wanted him to feel my hurt. And when I told him all of this, I tried to be rational and let him know that what I really wanted was for him to throw me a life preserver because I felt like I was drowning. He just sat there and said, "I'm sorry you feel that way but I can't help you." I think it was at that point that I started to emotionally detach. After that, I did some things that I am not proud of doing. I have stood by him and supported him and helped him and protected him but he couldn't and wouldn't do anything to help me when I was at rock bottom.

If "telling them off" is what you want, like in the movies where you tell the person off and they sit there stunned as you walk away, satisfied, that isn't going to happen because they abhor closure.  It's going to trigger them, and then they are going to trigger (and confuse) you more.  And the enmeshment will continue.  Letting it go and walking away is really the only way to get the closure you seek.

I am working on accepting the fact that he will never hear me. He will never see ME. I don't even know if I care. It just feels really good to think about what I would say if I did tell him off. I am at a point that I would much rather talk to other people and get some validation and strength. I want to feel like I am NOT crazy. That will never happen with him.

If vindication is what you want, that will not come from them.  Ever.  It has to come from you as you give up these burdens and come to grips with the truth of everything that happened.  It comes through time and healing.

In my ideal world, the best vindication will be me finding a way to leave him and make a better life for me and the kids. I don't want to hurt him. I feel sorry for him more than anything. I see him as a pathetic human being most of the time. But, I realize I cannot do any of that quickly. The hardest part is coming to grips with everything and becoming disentangle.

[OutOfEgypt]

It just feels really good to think about what I would say if I did tell him off. I am at a point that I would much rather talk to other people and get some validation and strength. I want to feel like I am NOT crazy. That will never happen with him.

Yup, it is *essential* to face those feelings and go through them.  They are part of your story, they give meaning and explanation to where you are and where you are going, and they are yours.  That is one of the biggest destructive things about a relationship with a BPD person -your voice doesn't matter, and if your voice is negative toward them at all, it is attacked and invalidated until you bury it and basically die and become a tool for their use.  I'm thankful I had an awesome therapist to go through these feelings with... .someone with compassion who would help me understand myself.  Even some of my friends couldn't do that.  They always wanted to jump in with advice.

In my ideal world, the best vindication will be me finding a way to leave him and make a better life for me and the kids. I don't want to hurt him. I feel sorry for him more than anything. I see him as a pathetic human being most of the time. But, I realize I cannot do any of that quickly. The hardest part is coming to grips with everything and becoming disentangle.

Yes, I definitely identify with this.  And this is where lots of people have advice that can ultimately make you feel worse.  Only you have to live with the results, and only you really know the best answer to the situation.  I, for example, ultimately did not fight for custody of the children.  That shocked many people, but reducing conflict and eliminating my ex seeing me as an adversary has paid off in big ways.  I still struggle with knowing when and if I should pursue custody, but I will cross that bridge when the time is right, and only I can get to that resolve myself.  Nobody can make me get there.  Self-compassion.

[vortex of confusion]

Yes, I definitely identify with this.  And this is where lots of people have advice that can ultimately make you feel worse.  Only you have to live with the results, and only you really know the best answer to the situation.  I, for example, ultimately did not fight for custody of the children.  That shocked many people, but reducing conflict and eliminating my ex seeing me as an adversary has paid off in big ways.  I still struggle with knowing when and if I should pursue custody, but I will cross that bridge when the time is right, and only I can get to that resolve myself.  Nobody can make me get there.  Self-compassion.

Thank you so much for this!

Trying to work through things on my time table can be frustrating because people seem to want to push me one way or the other. There are some people, like my mother in law and mother, that are hell bent on my staying strong and sticking it out and being more understanding. They want to push the idea that he must have something seriously wrong with him physically. Maybe it is his diabetes. Maybe he has undiagnosed heart problems. Maybe this. Maybe that. And then there are other people that are like, "Oh my goodness, I can't believe you have tolerated/done that. You need to leave him right away."

And then there is my brother and my dad who seem to listen to what I have to say and validate it and tell me stuff like, "Only you know the answers." A couple of weeks ago, I lost my head a bit and started text bombing my spouse. I knew I shouldn't do it but I was in a bad place. I stopped myself and called my brother instead. When I told him what I was doing, he gave me a little lecture about how it wasn't helping and that I should knock it off. But, he followed it up with, "But I know why you are doing it. It feels really good even though you know you shouldn't do it." And so, I was set straight and validated all in one fell swoop. My brother has some experience with some of this as his first wife left him for another woman and he had a lot of the same experiences all of those years ago. He lost his daughter and had all of his parental rights taken away. So, he knows why I would want to stay and why I would want to go.