Infidelity... and BPD?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I've not posted anything in a new topic about my wife for years. Because I thought she had recovered completely. Some of the BPD behaviors have been gone a couple years now. The raging and abuse. Projecting her self-hatred onto me. She has been consistently loving, supportive, and empathetic. Including the last year when she has been grieving and had sometimes incapacitating anxiety (new to her) and depression (not new but different, perhaps because she was owning her feelings)

While talking to a friend about this my friend said something about how borderline it was. I'm realizing that my wife's manic time is back and it seems like some of the BPD baggage she still is carrying. Well here goes.

My wife went away for a few weeks to stay in another city where we have quite a few mutual friends. One relatively new friend offered her his guest room. As both he and my wife can be flirtatious she decided to have a conversation ahead of time where she explained that she wasn't interested in sex or a relationship, just a safe place where she could recover from some of her anxiety. I had just flown cross country myself a couple days earlier.

The first phone call after she arrived had something like this: "I kissed him and there was some chemistry there" I replied clearly that I wasn't ok with this. "I'm not going to stop" I said I wasn't ok with that either

A day or two later the conversation turned to my wife wanting to have sex with him. At this point I started coming more unglued. Complicating background: My wife and I had been in relationship with another couple. I ended my r/a with the wife. The husband was still involved with my wife when he died suddenly a year ago. So our having different ideas initially about whether this would be ok is understandable.

Anyhow I made it very clear to both of them that I was not consenting to this, and that I was very hurt and upset. Short version: he didn't seem very concerned and gave me some kinda vague statements about how he was doing things that were healing for my wife and that it would be against his values to stop.

My wife really tried to convince me how good this would be for her and also for our relationship and our sex life. At least she did acknowledge that it was hurting me even though that wouldn't stop her. I'm getting accusations of trying to control her. And some vague stuff about how this will reset her.

I've been a wreck. I spent lots of angry and hurt time talking to her and texting up a storm one night I couldn't sleep. As far as I know they were only kissing and having intimate conversations until last night.

Today she was sending me friendly chatty txt's including some about big future plans as if nothing was changed. The either made me sad or really pissed off. Finally I called her and told her. I haven't heard since then. And since she is probably in bed now or will be soon I don't expect to hear much tonight.

Sadly I have no local friends. Today I went out for a loong walk to avoid the one big social event where I am. I just couldn't cope with either telling people here what is going on or pretending to be normal and talking about work or the weather.

I'm once again having my wife's mental illness aimed at me, and this time the things I learned about boundaries last time can't help me. I'm feeling powerless and miserable. I'm doing a pretty crappy job of taking care of myself.

My best hope is my wife coming to her senses. She is trying to reassure me that this will be over in about a week more. I don't believe it. We both know that she had been obsessed like this for months or years. She claims it is different this time, but I'm not believing most of what she says. Even though I think she does believe it herself.   :'(

[Grey Kitty]

I've not posted anything in a new topic about my wife for years. Because I thought she had recovered completely. Some of the BPD behaviors have been gone a couple years now. The raging and abuse. Projecting her self-hatred onto me. She has been consistently loving, supportive, and empathetic. Including the last year when she has been grieving and had sometimes incapacitating anxiety (new to her) and depression (not new but different, perhaps because she was owning her feelings)

While talking to a friend about this my friend said something about how borderline it was. I'm realizing that my wife's manic time is back and it seems like some of the BPD baggage she still is carrying. Well here goes.

My wife went away for a few weeks to stay in another city where we have quite a few mutual friends. One relatively new friend offered her his guest room. As both he and my wife can be flirtatious she decided to have a conversation ahead of time where she explained that she wasn't interested in sex or a relationship, just a safe place where she could recover from some of her anxiety. I had just flown cross country myself a couple days earlier.

The first phone call after she arrived had something like this: "I kissed him and there was some chemistry there" I replied clearly that I wasn't ok with this. "I'm not going to stop" I said I wasn't ok with that either

A day or two later the conversation turned to my wife wanting to have sex with him. At this point I started coming more unglued. Complicating background: My wife and I had been in relationship with another couple. I ended my r/a with the wife. The husband was still involved with my wife when he died suddenly a year ago. So our having different ideas initially about whether this would be ok is understandable.

Anyhow I made it very clear to both of them that I was not consenting to this, and that I was very hurt and upset. Short version: he didn't seem very concerned and gave me some kinda vague statements about how he was doing things that were healing for my wife and that it would be against his values to stop.

My wife really tried to convince me how good this would be for her and also for our relationship and our sex life. At least she did acknowledge that it was hurting me even though that wouldn't stop her. I'm getting accusations of trying to control her. And some vague stuff about how this will reset her.

I've been a wreck. I spent lots of angry and hurt time talking to her and texting up a storm one night I couldn't sleep. As far as I know they were only kissing and having intimate conversations until last night.

Today she was sending me friendly chatty txt's including some about big future plans as if nothing was changed. The either made me sad or really pissed off. Finally I called her and told her. I haven't heard since then. And since she is probably in bed now or will be soon I don't expect to hear much tonight.

Sadly I have no local friends. Today I went out for a loong walk to avoid the one big social event where I am. I just couldn't cope with either telling people here what is going on or pretending to be normal and talking about work or the weather.

I'm once again having my wife's mental illness aimed at me, and this time the things I learned about boundaries last time can't help me. I'm feeling powerless and miserable. I'm doing a pretty crappy job of taking care of myself.

My best hope is my wife coming to her senses. She is trying to reassure me that this will be over in about a week more. I don't believe it. We both know that she had been obsessed like this for months or years. She claims it is different this time, but I'm not believing most of what she says. Even though I think she does believe it herself.   :'(

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[RoyalTiger]

My best hope is my wife coming to her senses. She is trying to reassure me that this will be over in about a week more. I don't believe it.

You have not mentioned this in your post but, based on my experience with uBPDex, honesty and credibility are non-existent in these individuals. You know very well that what your wife is saying is only to "play" you. If she really cared for you and your wishes, nothing would have happened with the other guy.

I can say this, "Accepting a BPD with the hope that they will change 180 degree and make your life so much better is a mirage." Due to their perennial lying and deception, you will always be stressed out about what is REALLY happening. Since I have quit such a relationship, it baffles me why we non-BPDs even put up with this. Shouldn't happiness be our goal instead of the painful drama and manipulation at the hands of BPDs? Yes, they can be charming etc. but at what cost to us.

It is your call but I would not trust what your wife is saying, let alone expecting her to be supportive to your wishes.

[ziniztar]

Grey Kitty... .I'm so sorry to read about your post. I can't even begin to imagine how awful you must feel.

[patientandclear]

Grey Kitty ... .That's hard stuff. I'm really sorry. On the up side, she's telling you what's happening.

You need her to not do something she wants to do, so of course you're controlling. It's actually true that you are making her choice to do what she wants less enjoyable, either by complaining about it or imposing any boundaries you may set.

But that brings us to boundaries. You wrote that the usual sort of boundaries you've used with her won't work. Is that because infidelity is different from her past behaviors in that you can't just talk your way through it or leave the room till it stops -- once it happens the damage is done? Why do you feel boundaries won't help? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

I effectively lost my r/s by imposing boundaries about this sort of thing. People say you have to be prepared to lose the r/s ... .Well, I'm one who did. Still have a lot of sadness and doubt around that so I'm not saying it's obvious or easy to apply boundaries, far from it. Just wanted to see what you meant about that.

[Grey Kitty]

  P&C

What I meant about boundaries was that I was able to enforce boundaries against things like verbal abuse and that stopped the verbal abuse because I wasn't there to receive it... .it didn't end the relationship. I know the only boundary I can enforce on this is to end the marriage and I'm not ready to do that yet.

I'm sorry your relationship ended through this kind of boundary enforcement. I hope you her feeling more peace than regret about your choice.



Today all I can do is try to take care of myself. I'm not with my wife and she's  already told me that she's planning to stop this when she leaves the area and things can resume normal for us. She keeps trying to contact me with happy friendly things that would make it seem like our relationship is normal and this isn't going on and it's not tearing me apart and that doesn't work for me.

So I'm reducing contact with her while she's doing this and I'm thinking about what I'm gonna need from her to regain some kind of trust when we get together the next time.

I'm still adjusting to understanding both that her mental health recovery couple years ago was not quite what I thought it was and what she's doing now.

[JohnLove]

Hi Grey Kitty, sorry to read your situation, I enjoyed the first part

I feel the prior relationship dynamic may have made this permissible to her in addition to her BPD impulses. I can see it's unbalanced. I share your concerns and grievances about this. I know her honesty doesn't count for much or maybe it does?. Where is her loyalty?.

pwBPD can change emotionally very quickly. I couldnt rely on my exBPDgf promises.

You're doing the right things. I know how tough this crap is.

Hang in there friend.

[Grey Kitty]

Her honesty does count for something.

She is being honest about what she will do.

She is also feeding me some stuff that sounds pretty seriously delusional about why she needs to do this/chooses to do this. Including saying that "It isn't an obsession this time." but not be being able to explain why she cannot choose not to do something that is hurting me so much if it isn't an obsession.

She also has said she will completely cut contact with this guy "until I am OK with it" when she leaves town. I've told her that I don't really believe she can and will. Either that or she just thinks that I'll spend a couple weeks suffering, work through it, and decide that it is OK for her to resume. But this is all speculation on my part, and I've probably told dozens of people here to stop worrying about what is in her head and pay attention to behavior.

... .

And here's what I'm learning, both in what actions tell me, and what they mean to me:

:'( I cannot trust my wife to consider my feelings when she's interested/infatuated/obsessed/whatever with a guy.

 I also cannot trust this guy.

 I don't want to end my marriage... .so I want to work on getting back to trusting my wife.

 I don't want this guy in my life. I haven't had any good enough experiences with him to even care to go through the effort of figuring out how to trust him.

I've got clear ideas about what I'll ask for along the path of rebuilding trust. I'm moving on to something more important:

It is high time to focus on myself, what is important to me, and how I can build a life that works for me and isn't completely dependent on my wife. That is going to take some fairly big changes, and I need to make sure they are the right ones.

My wife is also pushing for changes (not just ones like this that hurt me!)... .and we've got a 20+ year pattern of going along with what she wants. She's passionate and impetuous, and comes up with ideas about what she wants to do at a fast and furious rate. I tend toward being content with whatever I'm doing. This results in me saying "I dunno what I want... .your idea sounds good" pretty often.

I think I'm good at pushing back against things I really DON'T want to do, and sticking with my own values and feelings.

I know I've not found the space to find the dreams that will make Grey Kitty's heart sing.

Until I find them, I cannot go get them.

A life where I accept choices that seem pleasant and avoid things that are against my values or painful to me doesn't seem like enough, but I haven't figured out how to look for more. Maybe I just need to grieve living this way for a decade as the first step.

[1989]

If we keep moving our "boundary" to accomodate our BPD, is it really a boundary or is it a request? If i say "My boundary is I will not stay in a relationship where my SO has emotional affairs with another person." and my SO continues to do so then I have to make a choice:  I can tolerate it or not.  What I can't do is force them to respect my boundary.  She has free choice (because it's her choice to do what she wants to do) and if that choice jeopardizes her relationship with you, she must face the consequence (even if that consequence is distance from you).  Is there a consequence for her bad choice?  Or do her choices simply cause a "blip" in your relationship, and then it continues on? 

You can have a boundary, but you can't make her do what you wish she would do.  It is up to you to enforce your boundary.  You cannot make her respect it or adhere to it.  She has to want to.

[MissyM]

Grey Kitty, sorry that you are going through this.  Truly it is heart breaking stuff!  It does seem that having an open relationship in the past would make it something a BPD would not be able to distinguish from being able to have sex with whomever they like.  That said, I wanted to address this statement.

I know the only boundary I can enforce on this is to end the marriage and I'm not ready to do that yet.

Being in recovery with my spouse for his SA and my codependency, this is a statement I hear quite often from people.  As they work on recovery, they learn that there are all kinds of boundaries short of divorce.  Some examples:

(1)  I will not be sexual with my spouse if they are being sexual with someone else.

(2)  I would require STD testing 90 days after their ending any sexual contact with someone else before I will be sexual with them.

(3)  I would sleep or live separately from my spouse if they are involved with someone else.

(4) If I do not see a change within ________ (everyone has to decide this for themselves), then I will file for divorce.

(5) I will not live with my spouse until they have entered treatment for their sexual compulsion.


Hope that this turns out ok for you!

[Grey Kitty]

It does seem that having an open relationship in the past would make it something a BPD would not be able to distinguish from being able to have sex with whomever they like.  That said, I wanted to address this statement.

True. In our case, this sort of manic need chasing after somebody else (without wanting to end our r/s) started before we had the consensual non-monogomous relationships. It has played out in various ways over the last several years, but it was there before. She's making some improvements on being ethical about it or giving my feelings some regard, though.

(1)  I will not be sexual with my spouse if they are being sexual with someone else.

(2)  I would require STD testing 90 days after their ending any sexual contact with someone else before I will be sexual with them.

(3)  I would sleep or live separately from my spouse if they are involved with someone else.

Thank you, you are correct that there are some boundaries I can enforce, which will protect me from some aspects of this situation. None of them address the betrayal I'm feeling because she is choosing this without my consent, and knows she is doing it without my consent.

#1 and #3 are in effect right now because I'm geographically separated from her, and she will be geographically separated from the other guy soon. (Though not back in the same place with me for a while after that)

My version of #2 is:

I will not have unprotected sex with my wife until she has passed a STD test. You mention 90 days after... .a friend of mine suggested two weeks... .I need to research that one better.

This isn't a boundary... .I'm not sure when I'll want to have sex with her. I will need to make peace with what she did while she strayed... .how much of that I even want to know... .She has been telling me that this will be fixing things in her that will help our sex life. Sigh. Whatever. I will need to heal from this before I even want to have sex with her.

I'm also very skeptical about how useful to either of us the concept of sex addiction is. I believe she has some sort of mental illness coming through here... .I'm afraid that programs like that are going down a sex-is-evil and desiring this is bad kind of path, and that doesn't fit my values. I also sincerely doubt it will fit my wife's values either.

... .I feel like my head and heart are giving me good direction for these issues.

... .The issue of building a life for myself that is right for me, rather than just jumping on my wife's bandwagon when it sound fun and safe to me is much bigger and harder for me. I'm not quite sure how I'm going to do it, and afraid that once this "crisis" is over I'll fall back into complacency and be right back here again in months or years.

[formflier]

 

GK,

   


Hang in there man... .

How has empathy changed in the r/s over the years?  Did that get better after recovery? 

If it was me... .that would be the part that got to me... the lack of empathy... or the "cruelty" of openly doing something hurtful.

Now... that is the mind of a "non" working there.  We shouldn't spend too much time trying to figure out exactly what she was thinking... .but I can see "the BPD in here" trying to say something to you other than cruel things... .

But... .we'll never know for sure.

Anyway... .I hate it for you man... .keep posting... .I'll check in on you later this evening.

FF

[MissyM]

I'm also very skeptical about how useful to either of us the concept of sex addiction is. I believe she has some sort of mental illness coming through here... .I'm afraid that programs like that are going down a sex-is-evil and desiring this is bad kind of path, and that doesn't fit my values. I also sincerely doubt it will fit my wife's values either.

That certainly doesn't fit my values, however expecting monogamy does.  I have a much healthier and fully integrated view of sex than my dBPDh.  He has always struggled with sex is bad view, which seems to go be common among those that are sexually compulsive.  As anything else, it depends on the support group and the therapists.  There is one of the therapists I use that leads group that I can see has a view about sex being bad, I have challenged her on that.  My individual therapist doesn't have this view and my testing and inventory have shown I have a healthy sexual identity.

Keep taking care of yourself and decide what boundaries are right for you.

[Grey Kitty]

I'd like to think my views on sexuality are fairly healthy. I know my wife has been on a journey to heal the crap she was raised with... .did some before she met me, some early in our marriage, some in recent years, along with the work she did which got her past much of the BPD behaviors. Still has some work to do, though.

however expecting monogamy does. 

My values don't go quite to expecting monogamy. My values are that any exceptions to monogamy have to be negotiated, and only done with consent of all involved.

[vortex of confusion]

My values don't go quite to expecting monogamy. My values are that any exceptions to monogamy have to be negotiated, and only done with consent of all involved.

I have been following this thread and wanted to say that I think I know exactly what you are talking about here. We tried what was supposed to be ethical non-monogamy but it didn't work. We agreed to try it out because my husband and I were bored. Well, he was bored and I was frustrated and was willing to try just about anything. Also, I have read several books that question monogamy. My problem was with the fact that my husband would do things that I was not comfortable with for a variety of reasons. I told him that I wanted our relationship and the kids to be his priority. I don't know what I was thinking as I had never really been his priority before.

Now, I have turned the tables on him and he is not happy. I have a friend/lover that I continue to talk to even though he has expressed that he is not happy with it. My problems stems from the fact that for a year or so my husband kept going back and forth about what he wanted. He would tell me one thing and then do another. I made him the priority but he would not do the same for me. I feel like he wants to dictate what I do based on where he is at in any given moment. It sounds like that is what your wife is trying to do to you. I don't have any ideas other than to set some boundaries. I feel like me still keeping in contact with my friend is me setting boundaries and not letting my husband continue to dictate who I do or don't talk to based on his whims.

[MissyM]

I know my wife has been on a journey to heal the crap she was raised with... .

My dBPDh was raised with some very distorted views on sex.  At church he was taught sex was bad, at home his father raped his mother and the children could hear it, had sex with hookers and exposed himself to my dBPDh.  To say that he has a really negative and complex view of sex, would be an understatement.  I was fortunate and taught that sex was a healthy, loving expression.  So sad when people have to recover from the crap their parents pass down to them.  This has been one of the main reasons that my husband is doing all of the work on himself, he doesn't want to pass his trauma down to the kids.

[bpbreakout]

Sorry haven't got time for a proper response Grey Kitty but just wanted to say I feel for you, you put your trust in a relationship and now put this horrible situation, I don't think I could deal with being treated like this, I hope you find a way through

[Grey Kitty]

vortex,

It sounds like you got into some of the messes that I've been in. One especially ugly situation is how to handle things when a partner grants consent for another r/s with somebody else... .then changes their mind about it. It is a really messy situation. Ethical non-monogamy sure does get more complicated than monogamy in a hurry. My personal experience and observations of others is that everybody involved really needs to be mentally healthy to avoid creating tons of drama.  Good luck working it out; I hope you can keep your friendship, even if you stop being lovers.

[Grey Kitty]

  Thank you everybody for your support. It does help. Right now I've got you folks... .and one person who is turning out to be a very good friend. She really cares about both me and my wife, but she just can't get behind what my wife is doing now. That and she's trying to kick my butt gently into taking care of myself instead of my wife or anybody else.

Anyhow, today's update is:

As far as I know, my wife is still having sex with this guy, probably every night. I am not asking.

She's been reaching out to me, mostly by txt, either being lovey and friendly, or telling me about other things going on that she wants to share or discuss with me. I didn't respond all morning.

The afternoon I responded clearly, telling her that I was going to focus on what I want and need, and discussing it with her isn't working for me. That and that if she can't share things with me or I'm not receptive, it is a consequence of her actions.

The last response I got was "Thank you for telling me that. I will respect your space. I love you."

Anyway, I'm still isolated and lonely where I am (Condition of my life this month; nothing to do with what my wife is doing)... .but If I'm not thinking about her all the time, I might actually get some work done... .and I'm trying to do that.

I'm also starting to come out of my funk. My friend said I sounded like myself today (unlike the last two days). It doesn't sound like much, but I did wash dishes and cook something that resembles real food tonight.

I still have a heavy heart, and that's gonna last for a while.

[vortex of confusion]

vortex,

It sounds like you got into some of the messes that I've been in. One especially ugly situation is how to handle things when a partner grants consent for another r/s with somebody else... .then changes their mind about it. It is a really messy situation. Ethical non-monogamy sure does get more complicated than monogamy in a hurry. My personal experience and observations of others is that everybody involved really needs to be mentally healthy to avoid creating tons of drama.  Good luck working it out; I hope you can keep your friendship, even if you stop being lovers.

Sending you a great big hug as I know how gut wrenching all of this can be! 

My situation was complicated by the fact that my husband got excited about the idea of me with other people. In the beginning, he pushed really hard for it. He wanted all of the details of all of my encounters with anybody that was not him. It was never ethical because my husband never respected my space or my boundaries. He wanted to jump in whole hog straight away with very little actual discussion of how things were going to work. And when we did discuss how things would work, it seemed like the rules were constantly changing.

The thing about my friend/lover is that I told him exactly what was going on with me and my husband and he respected that and didn't get upset when I would have to tell him "see ya" because I needed to focus on my husband and kids. Because my friend has supported me and never pressured me to do anything that I am not comfortable with doing, I can't just throw him away. My husband doesn't understand that I am unable to throw people away based on his whims.

And I know that you probably feel like your wife has thrown you away. That is how I felt for the longest time. I felt like a piece of trash that my husband would throw away whenever it was convenient. He can tell me that he isn't comfortable with me having my friend but I don't trust him not to change his mind because of some crazy whim. It was only two months ago that he took the day off work so I could go see my friend.

[Aussie0zborn]

On the up side, she's telling you what's happening.

That in itself is abusive. Abusive because you love her and she knows that and it gives her the impetus to treat you like trash and stomp all over your feelings knowing that you won't leave her.

This is a tough one, isn't it?

[fred6]

On the up side, she's telling you what's happening.

That in itself is abusive. Abusive because you love her and she knows that and it gives her the impetus to treat you like trash and stomp all over your feelings knowing that you won't leave her.

This is a tough one, isn't it?

I agree with this. I couldn't do it. My ex was cheating on me and split me black. But even if she wanted to work on the relationship, I don't know that I could ever trust her again. I know this is the staying board, but I don't know if I could do what you're attempting. Before I moved out, I actually had to watch my ex go out to spend the night with new supply and return in the morning. I may be alone, but being alone is nothing in comparison to that kind of abusive behavior. Good luck to you, you're stronger than I am.

[formflier]

On the up side, she's telling you what's happening.

That in itself is abusive. Abusive because you love her and she knows that and it gives her the impetus to treat you like trash and stomp all over your feelings knowing that you won't leave her.

This is a tough one, isn't it?

She may not realize it is abusive.  The added nuance to this thread/story... .and several others is that there have been times when there was more openness in the relationship or that sometimes this was ok. 

The problem with doing things that this with pwBPD traits is that dealmaking with them can be problematic.  Because if they make a deal one day when they "feel" a certain way about something... .and then later on they "feel" differently about it... .their perception of the deal may change.

Another way of saying... .what is "clear" to the non in the r/s about how things work in that r/s and what is clear to the pwBPD traits... .is usually quite different.  Unfortunately... .as the mentally stronger one... .it is usually up to the "non" to make most of the accommodation...

That doesn't make it "feel" any better for the "non" that is being cheated on... .

GK... .hang in there man!   

[allibaba]

Today all I can do is try to take care of myself. I'm not with my wife and she's  already told me that she's planning to stop this when she leaves the area and things can resume normal for us. She keeps trying to contact me with happy friendly things that would make it seem like our relationship is normal and this isn't going on and it's not tearing me apart and that doesn't work for me.

So I'm reducing contact with her while she's doing this and I'm thinking about what I'm gonna need from her to regain some kind of trust when we get together the next time.

I'm still adjusting to understanding both that her mental health recovery couple years ago was not quite what I thought it was and what she's doing now.

Hi Grey Kitty,

First of all      

I think that the crux of this probably the ambiguity in your relationship history with your wife (its an open relationship... .where are the lines?).  How long has it been since you guys have sat down and chatted about the framework of what is and is not acceptable in your relationship?  It may or may not avoid this sort of situation in the future but I get a sense that its been a while.  Time to have a refresher.  

Your feelings count ALL the time, but I can see her getting tempted by another man and then considering the open nature of your relationship history being able to make excuses about why this is important to her (thereby disregarding your feelings on the matter). Even though she has come A LONG WAY with her BPD (and bravo to her because that is SOO rare) she still has emotional immaturity and can slide back into it.

Heck... .putting myself in her situation... .she is away from her husband.  Its been an open relationship in the past... .someone starts saying nice things to her and making her feel good... .something "starts"... .her husband says "not ok!  not ok!"... .but she is already in the thick of it.  Would take most of us a lot of emotional maturity to extricate ourselves from the immediate scenario.  I personally haven't ever had an open relationship and my BPDex really pushed for having relations with other people but doing that takes an incredible amount of emotional maturity and personally I knew that it wasn't for me and I was sure that my ex didn't have the emotional maturity for it.

I think that the insight that you had about needing to take care of yourself and develop some of your own life is spot on.  To quote a wise Kitty "Put on your own oxygen mask before helping others."  This situation isn't going to sort itself out today (or tomorrow or next week).  The better you take care of yourself, the better you can navigate this tricky situation with the woman that you love.  

I know that you feel hurt and that is 100% understandable.  While you are busy pulling back and taking care of yourself you may want to spend some time thinking about the reasons that you love your wife and why you enjoy having her in your life.  I found that when I did that... .it made me SOO much better equipped to deal with tough conversations... .the resentment would flow out of me and I was left with love and radical acceptance (sorry am a bit of a hippy at heart    Then I could put up rock solid boundaries and feel so good about it because I loved him so much 

Lots of hugs Grey Kitty!

[Grey Kitty]

On the up side, she's telling you what's happening.

That in itself is abusive. Abusive because you love her and she knows that and it gives her the impetus to treat you like trash and stomp all over your feelings knowing that you won't leave her.

This is a tough one, isn't it?

She may not realize it is abusive. 

OK... .if she was telling me in joyful glowing details everything she did with him last night, that would be purely abusive.

From my point of view... .it is more of a betrayal, and would be worse if she lied about this to me in addition to doing it without my consent. So I still give her *some* credit for being honest.

I know she's not in a mental state where she can fully get what she's doing and the consequences. I suspect that the guy she's with is a manipulative pickup artist wearing the outfit of a spiritual new-age sensitive guy, spouting crap that sounds empowering and is getting her in bed with him. Not that this changes her responsibility for her actions any.

But even if she wanted to work on the relationship, I don't know that I could ever trust her again. I know this is the staying board, but I don't know if I could do what you're attempting.

She has lost my trust by doing this.

Especially because I know she's done this sort of thing three times before:

• 1st time was just an emotional affair, and neither one really acknowledged what was going on.



• 2nd time was without my consent, but we were thinking of changing things in our marriage, and didn't talk about it enough ahead of time. It went only to kissing and making out, but we ended up fighting over whether I would give the consent she demanded for a year.
  
  Curiously the EA of before had become an obsessive fantasy for her... .and the 2nd guy when talking with her about it said something questioning whether it was healthy for her to do or not... .and she just dropped that fantasy cold turkey right then. (It was all in her head--I didn't know about it until she told me she had quit!)



• 3rd time was when our r/s with the other couple started. I can chalk this one up to being more swept up in feelings than being cautious and wise.  What we both did was with discussion and consent... .but months or years later, she told me about when she started kissing him, and how significant it was to her... .and this was before any of those conversations about consent.
  
  I also did consent in advance badly at the start of that one. There was a LOT of messy emotional crap through the whole roller coaster ride of those relationships... .the other couple's marriage was ending, but ours was actually better for the things we both had worked through.

She's been telling me that she does have a learning curve and is getting better at doing this sort of stuff. Yes, she is doing a LOT of things better now than she was a while ago. For one, the directly abusive behavior... .ultimately feeling self-hatred, and emotionally beating up on me to get relief from that feeling, really did end.

A two years ago, I'd ended my r/s, although it was a long slow fade. One year ago, my wife's lover died suddenly.

She was grieving for her lover the last year, and her mental health took a DIVE. Depression set in; she's had episodes of that since before we met. Anxiety set in; this was completely new to her. Insomnia was also new to her. Six months ago, she was nearly suicidal, and I was making plans to get her to the ER if needed. She got counseling, and on some anti-anxiety/anti-depressant medication, and some stuff that helps her stay asleep.

Both the depression and the drugs sent her sex drive through the floor.

I did all I could to support her this last year. It has been a long and bumpy recovery for her starting last April.

Looking back, I remember a time before when she "recovered" from depression by going into an absolutely manic phase, which she enjoyed a lot more than depression, but still wasn't healthy... .and involved not caring much about how I felt. Or having some delusions that she was on a new, higher plane of existence, with a new code of ethics/behavior/morality, which happened to include being able to follow her urges even though they would be horribly hurtful to me.   Kinda like this one.

I do acknowledge that this period of separation where she planned on staying with this guy was very ill-timed in that sense--It was a time where her body and sexuality were waking up after a year of being asleep. She was feeling really horny for the first time in a LONG time.

In other words, like this:

Heck... .putting myself in her situation... .

Would take most of us a lot of emotional maturity to extricate ourselves from the immediate scenario.

Her level of emotional maturity has grown hugely over the last few years. I didn't realize that it wasn't up to this situation. I might have guessed, but I also didn't know this situation was coming up until it was too late.

Good luck to you, you're stronger than I am.

My fear is that this isn't true... .or isn't my reason for continuing. The other option is that I'm weaker, willing to bend my values more because I'm too dependent on my wife.

(Whew, this has gotten long... .next part in another message!)

[Grey Kitty]

For better or for worse, I'm feeling willing to give my wife a chance to regain my trust:

That means I have to be vulnerable, knowing that she could do this to me again. If she does this again, I am through having a marriage where I expect fidelity (more specifically only extramarital involvement with my consent!) from her. I don't know how to transition to a marriage without this, so the end of our marriage is most likely.

When she told me she was going to have sex with this guy, she said this in an email:

On that date, I will get on an airplane, and [guy] and I will completely cease communications until you, [Grey Kitty], say you are comfortable with them resuming. I will not harass or harangue you, I will not look for loopholes. I will simply accept that as long as you say it's over, it's over, and if you say it's OK to resume, it is.

I initially said I didn't believe she could do this, and refused to accept it. Besides... .putting a time limit on the betrayal didn't exactly feel like a concession to me 

I don't think I'll ever trust this guy; I don't care to risk being vulnerable to his actions ever again.

So this will probably be forever.

So, trust but verify going forward:

• My wife has to cut all communications with this guy.



• I won't have unprotected sex with her until she has a clean STD battery of tests. (I have reasons to believe this guy is kinda high risk even though my wife says they will only have protected sex)



• She will agree that she won't have sex or a r/s with another guy unless I consent.



• A new, specific: No kissing a guy on the lips without my direct consent in advance.
  
  I'm going to tell her that this means that *IF* she gets carried away and kisses a guy (without my consent), her responsiblity is to tell him "Oh crap, I really messed up by doing this. In order to make this good with my husband, I have to cut all future contact with you. Goodbye."
  
  This seems harsh... .but so far, when she has kissed a guy on the lips, it HAS gone farther than I'm comfortable with.

I do want her to work through whatever is driving this kind of behavior... .but I cannot push or force that. I've been telling people here to stop worrying about things like whether somebody is in T or not, and focus on their behavior (that impacts you, not trying to control everything they do!)

I also think my best bet is to just let her figure out what she needs to do to live up to these standards of behavior on her own, and not get involved.

I've got a big enough job for myself to create things in my life that I want in the future.

[MissyM]

My wife has to cut all communications with this guy.

I won't have unprotected sex with her until she has a clean STD battery of tests. (I have reasons to believe this guy is kinda high risk even though my wife says they will only have protected sex)

She will agree that she won't have sex or a r/s with another guy unless I consent.

A new, specific: No kissing a guy on the lips without my direct consent in advance.

I have done a lot of boundary work with professionals, only one of those is actually a boundary.  (I won't have unprotected sex) A boundary is what I will do, not what they will do.  So maybe reframe it?  i.e. I will do ______ if my wife has not cut communications with this guy.  I will ______ if my wife has a r/s or sex with a guy without my consent.  I will ____ if my wife kisses a guy without my direct consent in advance.

[Grey Kitty]

My wife has to cut all communications with this guy.

She will agree that she won't have sex or a r/s with another guy unless I consent.

A new, specific: No kissing a guy on the lips without my direct consent in advance.

I have done a lot of boundary work with professionals, only one of those is actually a boundary.

Agreed. I've posted similar things here many times before for other people!   It sure is easier to see this when somebody else is doing it!

I wasn't really stating them as boundaries, and that was intentional. My wife does tell me she loves me very much and wants to get back together with me. I think she also wants to regain my trust, or will when she realizes how much she's lost it.

These things are what I need to start rebuilding trust with her.

If I were to put them in boundary form, I'd say If she doesn't do them, then our marriage as I've know it is over, and I'm not sure what (if anything) I can make with her to replace it.

And this is a real risk--What I've heard from her, she feels like she is deeply polyamorous, and so she may balk at some of these. I also don't trust her to be able to just turn off the r/s with this guy like she offered. (She's maintained an obsession over a guy for a year or two before!)

I guess I do see this as a negotiation--what is our commitment to each other in our marriage as of 2014?

If I stated them as boundaries, they would all end in "I will end our marriage." or perhaps "Our marriage was based on consent for extra marital sex or relationships. I'm going to think long and hard if I can find any way to have a marriage that doesn't include that." As a boundary, I am a bit mushy on it, and I am completely aware how badly mushy boundaries work.

Thank you for calling me to clarify this!

I'm feeling very strongly about these things, and felt similarly strongly about this whole affair... .and my wife has (obviously) different and also strong feelings. Please challenge me on it--Are my feelings here driving me to behavior that will create a trainwreck?

[MissyM]

And this is a real risk--What I've heard from her, she feels like she is deeply polyamorous,

I have one friend that is polyamorous, and it didn't end up working well in her marriage (sex addict became involved and it blew up).  She is rethinking it with her new relationship.  She isn't 100% opposed but has seen how it can go way off track when someone involved is really unhealthy.  I have to wonder based upon the way you describe your wife, is she bipolar as well?

I'm feeling very strongly about these things, and felt similarly strongly about this whole affair... .and my wife has (obviously) different and also strong feelings. Please challenge me on it--Are my feelings here driving me to behavior that will create a trainwreck?

Your feelings are not wrong and you aren't responsible for however she decides to respond to your boundaries.  Just take the time to think through and lay out exactly what your boundaries are.  I don't have to tell my dBPDh all of my boundaries, I only share the ones that I think are necessary.  The others, I just enforce from my end.

[vortex of confusion]

I wasn't really stating them as boundaries, and that was intentional. My wife does tell me she loves me very much and wants to get back together with me. I think she also wants to regain my trust, or will when she realizes how much she's lost it.

She may sincerely want to regain your trust but lack the ability. My husband has lost it so many times and will do a little bit of work and then get discouraged and give it all up and backslide.

If I were to put them in boundary form, I'd say If she doesn't do them, then our marriage as I've know it is over, and I'm not sure what (if anything) I can make with her to replace it.

Because my husband and I have four young kids, we are pushing more towards a business arrangement where we keep things practical and keep the romantic stuff out of it. Because of finances and the kids, there is no way we could realistically part ways any time soon. I find that to be very confusing because he will tell me one day that he can't commit to anything and then the next day he is asking me where we stand.

And this is a real risk--What I've heard from her, she feels like she is deeply polyamorous, and so she may balk at some of these. I also don't trust her to be able to just turn off the r/s with this guy like she offered. (She's maintained an obsession over a guy for a year or two before!)

I find that to be the most difficult part of trying to be polyamorous. Having feelings for somebody and then having your primary partner shut it down before you are ready to disengage. Is she deeply polyamorous or is she a sex addict looking for a pass to mess around? In my husband's case, I don't think he is polyamorous. I just think he was looking for an excuse to mess around. He was unable to commit to our relationship and be plugged into it so what makes him think he can meet the needs of multiple people. He can barely take care of his himself and his kids. How does he expect to be able to contribute to another relationship that is supposed to be intimate?

I guess I do see this as a negotiation--what is our commitment to each other in our marriage as of 2014?

Her level of commitment might look totally different than yours. Last year, I wanted a commitment. There were several times when I tried to find out my spouses level of commitment. I cut off my relationship several times so that I could focus on him but it was quite clear that he was not committed to me. After a year on the roller coaster of him changing his mind back and forth, I have decided that I am going to do what I want even though I know that it is going to hurt him.

I'm feeling very strongly about these things, and felt similarly strongly about this whole affair... .and my wife has (obviously) different and also strong feelings. Please challenge me on it--Are my feelings here driving me to behavior that will create a trainwreck?

They are YOUR feelings. You have every right to have them. If they create a trainwreck, so be it. We have to stop trying to change our feelings and being mushy with our boundaries. I have been doing that for a whole lot of years and it is very painful.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm feeling very strongly about these things, and felt similarly strongly about this whole affair... .and my wife has (obviously) different and also strong feelings. Please challenge me on it--Are my feelings here driving me to behavior that will create a trainwreck?

They are YOUR feelings. You have every right to have them. If they create a trainwreck, so be it. We have to stop trying to change our feelings and being mushy with our boundaries. I have been doing that for a whole lot of years and it is very painful.

Actually, they are a step removed from my feelings,

Hurt, Anger, and Betrayal are feelings.

Those are real, those are mine. I got it!

Negotiating on or enforcing boundaries on my wife going NC with this guy, only kissing guys with my consent, and that she needs my consent to start a sexual/intimate relationship are not my feelings.

And that's where I'm asking for you wise people to help me and advise me I may be doing either of these two things:

• React to my feelings in a way that can cause a trainwreck.



• Respond skillfully to my feelings and act in accordance with my values. (My wife still has the option of causing a trainwreck at this point, especially if she cannot live in a way that matches my values.)

So far I've spoken to a couple friends... .they aren't mediating, one hasn't even spoken to my wife about it, and knows that there are a couple sides to any story... .I want to do the right thing for my marriage, and it is really tough... .especially because I want to believe what my wife says to me. So I'm up against both my natural caution and desire to really do things right... .and I think she's playing games with me, whether she knows it or not, so I'm trying not to be lost in her fog.