My wife won't come back. I'm moving forward

[Grey Kitty]

I still think of myself as someone who belongs on the Staying board, but this is likely to be my last topic that belongs here.

This picks up right after the preceding thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236799.0

I got a phone call from my wife after sending the email with my limits around her cheating in complete black and white. She started out ready to end it... .but still wanting to talk, wanting to be heard... .the conversation circled around a bit again... .

Looking back at it, she ended the conversation when I had kinda boxed her in--getting her to a point where I was being pretty clear that I wasn't going to force her into the old patterns in our marriage, and that that had nothing to do with my position on her cheating.

But she has been saying she can't come back for a couple days now.

So after I got off the phone with her, I called my parents and told them. They did notice that we'd been going in different directions lately, but didn't realize there were big problems like this. I told my parents that as of now, we are splitting. I told them that she had been cheating on me during her visit, and that she wouldn't cut contact with the guy.

And I asked them not to let her be unsupervised around our stuff. (We live a transient life, and many of our belongings are stored in my parents house.) I asked them to only give things to my wife that I'd told them to, when they heard that from me.

A bit of a shock for them, but they didn't have much to say. Sympathy for me, though.

I'm still hoping for a my wife to come to see reason. I'm not unable to forgive her and go back with her. If she knocks on the door, I will answer it. However I now see that my actions are going forward as a single guy instead. I've been doing this all month in various steps.

I took my wedding ring off. Since I'm far away from her, this is just about me.

I'm whupped. Past time for bed.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[itgirl]

I'm sorry to hear this Grey Kitty.  I think you are doing the right thing by sticking to your morals.  Wish I had more advice for you as you have always been so helpful to me.

I hope your wife comes around.

[123Phoebe]

 

[Cat21]

I'm sorry, grey kitty. It was eye opening to read all of your story and it was told with such candor. I hope your wife realizes what a huge mistake she's made and that you can find some peace. 

[Grey Kitty]

  It makes me cry, but I need absolutely all the support I can get.

I'm waking early again, after another night of 6 hours of sleep or less.

... .and really feeling the loss right now. Every place I turn.

I made myself a cup of coffee this morning. I've done this on my own for a month now, and was used to doing it on my own from time before that

My morning coffee habit started as a positive outcome of a long-time conflict with my wife--She would awaken rapidly, and I would wake slowly... .and often stay in bed longer than she wanted. After ~15 years of fighting about it in the mornings, she started bouncing out of bed, making coffee, and bringing me a cup of coffee, and allowing me 15~20 minutes to get started. We often spent mornings snuggling, and talking then was our open and intimate time.

... .

My sense is still that she isn't making the decision to end things with a clear head, and that is heartbreaking. She gave me a hypothetical version of irreconcilable value differences in a prior conversation. Kinda hypothetical-like.

1: When you love somebody (or maybe it was when somebody loves you, I forget which), you are given some sort of power over them to control them. (This sounded a little better when she stated it. It is sounding horrible now)

2: If you love somebody, you will be happy about anything that makes them happy, or want anything that makes them happy

I told her that I rejected both versions. Neither works for me.

I think I've got my own version of irreconcilable differences in values:

Me: I measure a person based on their actions first, their words second.

This includes my wife. Her actions are to maintain the r/s with this guy, which started without my consent.

My wife seems to measure me by my intentions (as she sees them), above my words, if not my actions.

But... .As a friend said to me: I don't owe her any explanations ever again.

[Mike_confused]

And yet... .it is very likely she will attempt to recycle.   She says no no no right now, but wait - I will not be at all surprised if she attempts to recant here story.   It will be cast as if you misunderstood, she never intended to leave you and that something other than her own actions caused her to cheat.    She will be convincing.

How you react is up to you of course.   Be prepared for this.

[takingandsending]

I am so sorry Grey Kitty. 

You have been a great support for me and others here.

2: If you love somebody, you will be happy about anything that makes them happy, or want anything that makes them happy

I, too, used to believe this (and hear this from my wife), and in trying to live to this standard, not only did I sacrifice my own feelings, happiness, self-worth and basically joie de vivre, it never made my wife happy. Your situation may be different, but I now tell my wife, "I will support whatever makes you feel happy and good about yourself ... .as long as you are kind and are not harming anyone." I found that my happiness is important, too. Yours is too. But I suspect that you already know that. 

Wish you well on your journey. You are pretty awesome. 

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks for the support. 

2: If you love somebody, you will be happy about anything that makes them happy, or want anything that makes them happy

I, too, used to believe this (and hear this from my wife), and in trying to live to this standard, not only did I sacrifice my own feelings, happiness, self-worth and basically joie de vivre, it never made my wife happy.

I think this was the position my wife thought she believed in, and the other was the one she thought I believed in.

"Not my circus, not my monkeys"

[Grey Kitty]

I'm prepared for getting no clear resolution unless I choose to make it happen.

Spent this morning writing an email. Not sure if I will send it or not. She's probably not awake in her timezone yet.



Subject: Separation and Individuation

Wife,

Last night after you said goodbye, I took my wedding ring off. This morning I put it back on.

I don't owe an explanation to you for that. You will decide what it means to you anyway.

I do have something else I need to tell you about:

INDIVIDUATION:

We have been making some progress on individuation at least since we bought our boat. Separate email accounts. Separate relationships with Mr & Mrs GK. Separate phones.They all worked better for me, despite feeling uncomfortable at the time...

Before you told me you wanted to end things, I was already taking more steps in that direction. Choosing not to involve myself in things which are clearly yours. Choosing not to involve you in things which are clearly mine.

I am continuing with this. I believe it is healthy for me, if we reconcile. Or if we separate.

SEPARATION:

Separation is dividing up things which are shared, not individually yours, or individually mine. I hope we don't have any conflicts about which things are mine, yours, or joint. I expect some conflicting desires with you about how to separate our joint assets.

My choice is to do the absolute minimum separation for today. I wish to do all the individuation before we start to negotiate and resolve separation.

I do not wish to do the separation piecemeal.

I do not want to take steps that will make it harder for me to reconcile with you today. I'm still wearing my ring.

Love,

Grey



This falls into the category of sharing my feelings with my wife, more than I owe her right now, especially the parts about the ring and waiting on separation to keep reconciliation easier.

The rest of it is unambiguously true. I'm still not sure if anything good will come of sending it to her either.

Thoughts?

[SunflowerFields]

Grey,

I've followed your posts for some time.

As someone who's been through BPD hell, went through the aftermath, and now in a happy marriage with a healthy person, it still never ceases to amaze me realizing how my mind was warped back then, and how my reality was shifted. How I wanted to make things work when, in reality, after all the *&^ he had caused, it should have been him.

Your wife cheated on you. She broke the agreement you had, knowing how important it was to you.

It should be her trying to apologize to you and make you stay - not the other way around.

It should be her begging you to put your ring back - not you pacifying her.

It should be your decision whether or not this marriage continues - not hers.

All those things should be on her. Because she is the one who cheated.

That's the plain reality.

pwBPD have an incredible ability to turn things around. It is your job to be strong and see through the smoke and mirrors.

With your current setup, even if you guys do get back together, I doubt you would gain much in the long term. The only way to make any headway is to stand your values and let the chips fall where they may. Because those values are important to you and you should value yourself enough to stand by them.

I suspect that you already know this.

No one said this was easy. Defending your values requires real conviction and belief in yourself. It is probably the most difficult thing you will ever do in your life.

I wish you strength.  

[jedimaster]

"Not my circus, not my monkeys"

I told this to my T one day, and it cracked him up.  He had never heard it before.

Sorry to hear about the marriage situation.  I'm afraid it sounds like it might be the end.  I'd like to say if my BPDw did that I would be able to forgive, but I really don't know.  I think if she was truly sorry I might, but I suspect it would end up in a situation like you are facing now, and in that case I would probably react much as you are.  I hate to say it, but I suspect even if you stay together she will view it as permission to repeat this.  Ending it may be the only option for your own peace of mind.

I wish you the best--your advice has been a great help in the short time I've been on this forum.  Whatever happens I hope it results in some peace and happiness for you. 

If you do end it, please do keep visiting this board--we need your advice and counsel.

Good luck and prayers for you.

[KateCat]

GK,

I think your degree of thoughtfulness and ability to articulate that thoughtfulness is right up there on par with that of "MaybeSo." (And I think she's now a professional counselor, no?) Her recent posts on one of your threads paralleled your situation, it seems: both of you are growing weary of "repeating grade school"--as I think she put it--and yearning to move on to higher education, with respect to relationship issues.

But is your wife, maybe, moving in the opposite direction? This affair guy is no young lad, is he? Could he represent to her a permanent Peter Pan fantasy of not having to face mature choices and responsibilities? (With you, of course, always waiting around for her repeated returns. As maybe the affair guy's partner does for his.)

She doesn't seem to hear you.

[Grey Kitty]

Your wife cheated on you. She broke the agreement you had, knowing how important it was to you.

It should be her trying to apologize to you and make you stay - not the other way around.

It should be her begging you to put your ring back - not you pacifying her.

It should be your decision whether or not this marriage continues - not hers.

All those things should be on her. Because she is the one who cheated.

That's the plain reality.

pwBPD have an incredible ability to turn things around. It is your job to be strong and see through the smoke and mirrors.

That's pretty much my reality. Especially things in bold.

I italicized "should's" Because the word should has no place in reality. It only applies to wishes and hopes.

As for the decision to end a marriage. There are two decisions. We each get one. Continuing requires two "yes" answers. Ending happens with one or two "no" answers.

I'm giving her a room where I may still say "yes", on the terms that I can accept.

Not because I should do it.

Not because she deserves it.

Because my values support that extra bit of generosity.

Because it isn't costing me much to wait a few more days.

And because I don't believe she is clear in her mind and heart what she really wants, and how reality applies to it. If she wants to leave in a grounded, certain way, there would be no stopping her. That's not how she feels.

Because in my heart, it feels right to leave the door open a little longer and tell her that she is invited to come back in... .even though she blew through a wall already. I'm already re-building something amazing where that wall used to be. Given my amazing future, I can forgive the explosion which gave me room to re-build better and stronger.

I will not let her walk back in wearing that emotional suicide bomber explosive vest.

[Grey Kitty]

I'd still appreciate any comments on the email I was thinking of sending. But please consider this: I've realized that it isn't matching my needs now. There is one "little thing" or perhaps one "big thing" that matters more for me.

I still intend to complete the individuation process now. I'd still rather delay the separation and full division of assets and our lives and belongings. I've got some small hope of not needing to do it.

However I'm realizing that there *IS* something bigger I need. I need to have ownership of our boat. I'm willing to pay her fair value for it. I want this even if we reconcile.

I need to have some plans and dreams of my own to work toward. Ones that aren't tied to my wife. Re-building my sailboat and sailing it somewhere is the dream I want to pursue. I don't want to be tied to her for this.

I've got a plan to finish my current necessary projects, and get at least one of my sailor friends to help me deliver her to the other coast with me. I want to be free to pursue this on my own. And perhaps negotiate with my wife a life together when I arrive. If we both still want it.

Meanwhile I'm going to go out and do some boat projects... .and let her contact me if she has business with me.

I need to chew on this before I start negotiating it with her. It won't be easy--I'm pretty sure that our boat is the one joint asset my wife cares most about. Even if she did tell me that she would give me first shot at her should we split.

[Jessica84]

I am so sad by this, Grey Kitty. My heart goes out to you. 

You are a good writer, and a thoughtful, patient man. But I'd hold off on the email a little while if you can. I understand wanting to keep the door open, but I wonder if sending the email right now puts pressure on her to decide when she may not be able to? You can keep the door open without letting her know it's open. She must know somewhere, deep down, that you are willing to reconcile. If she ultimately closes the door, separating your assets now will put you ahead of the game. But for your sake, I hope and pray it doesn't come to that.

[Grey Kitty]

I needed to write it. I don't think I need to send it.

Maybe later.

My best option is to give my wife time to sort out her own feelings.

And take care of myself.

[Jessica84]

Definitely take care of yourself. Write her volumes of letters if it helps. I've sent many letters that never got sent. Or write here. Or work on your boat. Whatever helps. I'm sorry you're going through this.

[Grey Kitty]

I just felt whupped at the end of the day yesterday.

This morning I'm somewhere between peaceful and numb. Not quite sure which.

It sounds like my wife had a civil, but uncomfortable time when she went by my parents house to pick up some things she needed for a road-trip she was going to do. The report I got wasn't one of sounding angry... .and my mom said she was speaking as if she thought things could/might/would? work out between us. She also told my parents that her dad knows something is happening, or is reading between the lines, but hasn't got full disclosure yet.

She returned the key to their house. Which has been both her and my base of operations, while we are in that part of the country. We both use it as a mailing address for the few things that still come as physical mail. (My parents are now giving her mail to her and my mail to me as appropriate... .)

I know I did do one thing--I forced her to face the real consequences of her actions, cheating, and separating. My parents aren't against her. (Neither am I!) The are, however, supporting me and protecting me.

She's in a difficult spot, from a logistical point of view. Living out of a suitcase. Our home is our boat, 3000 miles away, and she doesn't want to live where it is, or move back with me today. I don't want her to come back (physically here) while I'm in the boatyard either. We effectively have an open guest room at my parents house, as kindof a second home. We've got stuff that didn't fit in the boat stored there that would make a great apartment starter-kit, at least for the kitchen. She has a plane ticket to another state on the 20th, and a place to stay there for a little while, and no reason to set up residence someplace before that.

What about me?

I'm moving forward with what I want and need that is separate from her.

I'm staying connected to friends. (long distance)

I'm talking more to acquaintances locally.

I'm working to further individuate with her--uninvolveing me in her affairs, and taking her out of mine.

I'm thinking about what I will want in separation, but not taking actions on joint things.

And I'm giving her time and space to work out what she really wants.

All I can do is stop my stirring up the muck... .allow things to settle, making it easier to see clearly into the depths. She's confused enough without me getting involved.

What am I thinking of doing with/for my wife?

1. I'm definitely willing to attend joint T with her. I think my only condition for this is that she want it enough to initiate it. (I already feel clear about what I need and want in our r/s... .it will only help if she wants to get clarity)

I was thinking about setting conditions that she cut contact with the guy she's cheating with. I don't think I need to do that to talk to her in T. Heck, I'm still willing to talk to her on the phone some and she's still in contact. Sigh.

2. I'll support her (from joint assets) if/when she wants to set up a place for herself to live. We have enough cash to last much longer than I'm willing to stay in limbo... .given that we are both frugal. I'll even let her at least use a bunch of joint stuff to start out--I've got a bunch of joint stuff here on our boat that I'm using on a daily basis... .If we split, that is up for negotiation too.

Aside: This sounds so much better to me than her picking a guy (one bad choice already!) to shack up with for a while 'cuz she doesn't have access to her share of our money!

[Grey Kitty]

Thinking about sending another email. Actually two, as the two issues seem separate. We've been civil, even a touch friendly lately. She's busy for a few days on a road trip, so doesn't have much time to interact with me anyway.

My goals:

1. I want to go forward with making my life my own, keeping her out of my things, and removing myself from her things.

2. I do want to allow time for this to become more comfortable before negotiating division of joint things leading up to divorce.

3. I do want to improve our r/s and reconcile... .I think that my best here bet is items #1 and #2, stay fairly LC... .I am willing to do couples T with her, but do not wish to push for it. Not even sure I will mention it.

[Grey Kitty]

Email draft #1

Subject: Money

Hi Wife,

I do not want to negotiate dividing up our joint accounts now.

I want to spend my own money, as I see fit, without any requirement to asking you or tell you about it.

I don't want to be involved with how you spend your money.

I propose that we both have individual accounts and credit cards, and fund the accounts with initial equal deposits, followed by equal monthly transfers from our joint account.

I propose that we stop using the joint account and joint credit cards for individual expenses as soon as we can get this set up.

Grey

[Grey Kitty]

Email Draft #2:

Subject: Living arrangements and belongings

Wife,

My living arrangements are my own choice today. I'm not involving you in them.

Your living arrangements are your choice, and I do not want to be involved in making that choice. I know your rough schedule of where you expect to go through Hank's surgery. I know you have choices to make after that.

Until we work on living back together, this separation is a good thing.

Today I'm living on [our boat]. She is still jointly owned by both of us, and so are most of the personal items here. I am very aware of this. I'm also aware that some items here are mine, and others are yours.

I choose to offer you the same. We have many belongings, mostly joint [at my parents place]. We used them to set ourselves up in the [location from a few years back] apartment.

Please talk to me about it if you are interested in using them for your upcoming living arrangements.

Grey

[vortex of confusion]

Thinking about sending another email. Actually two, as the two issues seem separate. We've been civil, even a touch friendly lately. She's busy for a few days on a road trip, so doesn't have much time to interact with me anyway.

My goals:

1. I want to go forward with making my life my own, keeping her out of my things, and removing myself from her things.

2. I do want to allow time for this to become more comfortable before negotiating division of joint things leading up to divorce.

3. I do want to improve our r/s and reconcile... .I think that my best here bet is items #1 and #2, stay fairly LC... .I am willing to do couples T with her, but do not wish to push for it. Not even sure I will mention it.

First, I want to send you a great big hug! 

Number 1 on the list sounds a lot like part of the individuation process. If you have been together so long after being completely enmeshed, then it is going to take quite a while for the two of you to establish separate lives. I am wanting to work towards leaving my husband but I realize that there are a lot of steps involved. The biggest one is to keep working on creating separate lives. Untangling all of it is going to take time. Maybe you can find a way to focus on individuation without regard to whether you stay or go.

Instead of actually dividing things up, maybe you can start smaller and simply work towards inventorying what the both of you have so you can simply identify what belongs to whom. I know there was a period in our relationship where it felt like everything was ours. I started thinking about what we have and what I want and I started taking ownership of MY things.

As far as wanting to work on things, I applaud you on that. I would recommend stepping back from the idea of mentioning couples T. In my situation, I was very willing to work on things but it seemed like he could not take any kind of initiative. I am not sure I know how to explain it but the gist is that I would push and push and push for improvement. I would want to work on things between us and he seemed non-plussed and a bit clueless. I tried to have a conversation with him about our relationship this morning and it seemed to circle back to him and how hard he is trying and that he doesn't feel like he can do anything at this point to save our marriage. I am going to let him think that because I am tired of feeling like I have to tell him what to do. I am tired of trying to save a marriage with somebody that seems so disinterested. Mental illness or no, it seems to me that if he really wanted to be with me, he would show some kind of initiative. He tells me that since he is getting a better grip on recovery that his feelings about me are being reignited. The funny thing is that I sure as heck can't tell based on his actions. He hasn't made any significant changes. Maybe I am not seeing it. I struggle with feeling like a jerk because now that I feel done, he is now telling me that his feelings for me are back, blah, blah, blah. All of this is to say that at some point, the other party needs to take on some kind of responsibility for the relationship. I am done making suggestions. I have told him what I want and what I need. I can look past all of the weirdness that happened as a result of our experimentation.

Also, is it really about the other guy? I ask that because I have thought long and hard about other people. I have come to the conclusion that most of my beef is with the fact that he cannot seem to extend basic kindness and generosity towards me. It is all about him.

A friend posted this article the other day: www.businessinsider.com/lasting-relationships-rely-on-2-traits-2014-11?utm_content=bufferdc881&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

After reading it, I had a light bulb moment. I was willing to do just about anything to save our marriage. I was willing to stand by him and support him no matter what. All I really want or need is for him to turn towards me. I would accept all sorts of messiness and imperfection IF I felt like he was making some kind of bid or effort or anything really. Part of the individuation process for me is being able to take ownership of my own wants and needs without having to broadcast them or beg with him or plead with him.

Just some food for thought! I would definitely think on some of this some more and maybe rework some of the emails. If having sole ownership of the boat is really important to you, pick that and work on that first. What can you do to get sole ownership of the boat?

[MissyM]

I was willing to do just about anything to save our marriage. I was willing to stand by him and support him no matter what. All I really want or need is for him to turn towards me. I would accept all sorts of messiness and imperfection IF I felt like he was making some kind of bid or effort or anything really. Part of the individuation process for me is being able to take ownership of my own wants and needs without having to broadcast them or beg with him or plead with him.

Yes, very true.  I had to workout what my needs were and what were wants.  Eventually, I have had to communicate those with my dBPDh because I can't expect him to mind read.  The hard part is I have to be willing to wait and take some push back on the wants.  That is where being really clear on what is a non-negotiable need and what is a want, that I am willing to negotiate on, is very important. So, getting in touch with that myself has been really healing.  While I was working on those, I did not take input from my dBPDh but from therapists and others in recovery.  So, my suggestion would be to continue to work through these on here and with your support system before you send her any kind of email.

[Grey Kitty]

VOC, thanks for the   ! And for your thoughts too.

Number 1 on the list sounds a lot like part of the individuation process. If you have been together so long after being completely enmeshed, then it is going to take quite a while for the two of you to establish separate lives. I am wanting to work towards leaving my husband but I realize that there are a lot of steps involved. The biggest one is to keep working on creating separate lives. Untangling all of it is going to take time. Maybe you can find a way to focus on individuation without regard to whether you stay or go.

Yup, that's exactly where I'm at. Individuating is what I need if we separate. It is also what I need if we reconcile. So I'm making it priority #1. (And letting my wife decide how she feels about it)

Also, is it really about the other guy? I ask that because I have thought long and hard about other people. I have come to the conclusion that most of my beef is with the fact that he cannot seem to extend basic kindness and generosity towards me. It is all about him.

Yes and no... .

Yes, it is--I really can't accept her back if she's staying involved with him. Too much ongoing hurt and pain and conflict. I've been through it before; last time it was two years of fighting over it.

No it isn't--I know I've got changes I want to make in how I live my life, and they will show through strongly in how I interact with my wife. (I believe this applies for her too. She has admitted that she was feeling trapped and boxed in so badly that she was willing to blow apart our marriage and act against her own morals by cheating on me with the guy... .but that is her issue, not mine, and I can only use it as a source for some compassion for her.)

A friend posted this article the other day: www.businessinsider.com/lasting-relationships-rely-on-2-traits-2014-11?utm_content=bufferdc881&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Funny coincidence. My wife sent me an email five days ago saying she'd love to discuss that very article with me. I opened it and read a couple paragraphs, but wasn't feeling open enough to actually read the whole thing at the time.

My moment from the article is that when my wife shares her joys with me, I haven't usually given active-constructive responses. I'm afraid I tend toward active-destructive.

I suspect the lack of understanding what is HERS vs. what is OURS makes it hard for me to respond well for our r/s. (Her sharing the desire to get involved with this guy as a joy that she was looking for a positive response to is part of that problem! Needless to say, I wasn't active-constructive with that! And that seems to be one current beef. This lack of understanding of what is mine, hers, or ours gets spread around a bit... .)

I'll acknowledge that my wife is good at active-constructive responses to my accomplishments... .perhaps always was... .even though she has a long history of acting in ways that would hamstring me and keep me tied to her and prevent me from having any accomplishments on my own.

Today, it seems like we are both feeling hurt and protective enough that we seldom share our joys with each other.

If having sole ownership of the boat is really important to you, pick that and work on that first. What can you do to get sole ownership of the boat?

It is very important to me. It is also the status quo--I'm living on our boat, and she isn't. I'm now doubting the wisdom or kindness of me pushing the legal side of this issue. I'm thinking that if I TAKE this from my wife, it will hurt her and hurt our chance for reconciliation. And if she is willing to freely GIVE this to me, it will feel good for both of us.

I'd like to get good enough with the individuation that I feel comfortable in this boat as being mine... .and that I feel safe in sharing her with my wife, who loves her too.

[Grey Kitty]

So, my suggestion would be to continue to work through these on here and with your support system before you send her any kind of email.

I'm on it--Notice that I'm posting drafts here instead of hitting "send"!

Speaking of which... .I just composed another one for myself to chew on. I'm feeling a bit more tender toward her now... .



Subject: Re: (email sharing article mentioned above: www.businessinsider.com/lasting-relationships-rely-on-2-traits-2014-11?utm_content=bufferdc881&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer )

Hi Wife,

Today I finished reading the article. I thought about my behavior toward you in this context. I wish I had thought this way years ago. I can see how some things you've already told to me fit this.

I'm still not ready to discuss it with you. I'm afraid of any discussion we have veering from self-improvement into spouse-improvement. I want better conversations than that with you.

Instead I will change myself and let you see the difference.

We can talk about it after that!

Love,

Grey

[Grey Kitty]

I read that last email to my friend and supporter. (She tells me I'm stuck with her on "Team Grey Kitty" forever) She was so impressed with it that I decided to send that email right away. Her comment was something about it being amazingly awesome on so many levels.

I've not had any significant contact with my wife for the last couple days, and don't expect any for the next couple days.

I'm feeling pretty good today. I only took my wedding ring off overnight, I'm back to wearing it again. I've also thought of a wonderful couple I know who got together later in life (both ~60, been together ~5 years). He was dating somebody before her, and she kinda ran away or broke it off or something. But remained friends. And later said to him "I really messed up when I let you get away, didn't I?"

I'm feeling strong, ready to re-define myself in my r/s with my wife, should she accept my terms. I'm feeling excited about some things I'm going to do with my life.

And I'm feeling kinda tired of her crap. Wondering why I am even choosing to give her more chances.

There have been times before when I've felt that I will HAVE to go on without her to save myself. Times when I've thought she was going to leave me and I wouldn't have the option of staying with her. This is the first time I've even started to consider whether I even want to reconcile with her or not.

Uh-Oh. If she's gonna come back, she better do it pretty soon. This one may get stronger.

I don't think she's ever considered that I would choose to move on... .not out of self-preservation, but out of the idea that I will be happier alone, or expect to find somebody better.

[TLY09]

 It makes me cry

I'm so sorry that you're going through this.  I'm finding myself nodding along with the things you've written - about the individuation process you've almost unconsciously been going through... I feel I've been doing too.  But also, doing in a way that wouldn't make it hard to stay together. 

I feel for you - and I don't have any advice- just another person sending thoughts and prayers your way.   

[MissyM]

This is the first time I've even started to consider whether I even want to reconcile with her or not.

 

[vortex of confusion]

There have been times before when I've felt that I will HAVE to go on without her to save myself. Times when I've thought she was going to leave me and I wouldn't have the option of staying with her. This is the first time I've even started to consider whether I even want to reconcile with her or not.

Uh-Oh. If she's gonna come back, she better do it pretty soon. This one may get stronger.

I don't think she's ever considered that I would choose to move on... .not out of self-preservation, but out of the idea that I will be happier alone, or expect to find somebody better.

It is a great feeling for me to be okay with the idea that my husband and I will likely not be together forever. I used to get so scared of that thought. Now, it is nice to focus on myself and think about a future without all of the BS. I am still open to the idea that my husband might improve or make some effort but I am at a point where I really don't care. I don't really feel like I am invested in the outcome. I used to be so caught up in this idea that I had to find a way to fix things. I am not going to fix anything and am instead going to try to focus on me and my kids.

[Grey Kitty]

I am still open to the idea that my husband might improve or make some effort but I am at a point where I really don't care. I don't really feel like I am invested in the outcome.

I've been somewhere around that place for a while... .letting go of the need for my wife to improve. And knowing that I cannot take her back on some terms (i.e. let her have her cake and eat it too!)

The feeling that has suddenly bounced up once or twice, and utterly shocked me is very different.

I'm starting to wonder if I even want her back under any circumstances.