She is withholding sex to punish/manipulate me

[Moselle]

Has anyone experienced this?

She has a very strong libido, but not as a strong as her need to be a victim.

She realised early on into the marriage of over a decade, that this was a way to control manipulate me, and if I'm honest I played into it. I didn't know it consciously but looking back the message was clear - if you give money, cars, what I want, you will get sex. That was before the separation 10 months ago.

I've decided to stay in the marriage, and work at it, but now this aspect is beginning to play out again.

This is my perception and I'm very much a male :-). I'm keen to hear the male and female perspective or feedback on it.

How can I stop playing my role in the unhealthy dynamic of many years and build a happy, respectful, intimate sex life?

What is realistic with a pwBPD/NPD? This dynamic is very loaded.

At the moment what she says is "I am not willing to trust you until you have proven yourself". I made it very clear that the changes I've made (which she openly acknowledges) are not to prove anything to anybody. Regarding these changes she says "I'm waiting to see if they're consistent"

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

My take: As long as she tries to use sex to control you, you will have a messed up sex life with her. As long as you participate in those games, it will be remain more messed up!

All you can do is be clear that you won't play that game anymore. (And work on repairing other parts of the r/s.)

Since you did play into it for over a decade, so it will not be an easy or fast lesson to unwind this.

She probably played that sort of game before she was involved with you.

I think I was VERY clear in the other thread about the consent issue here--however unfair, manipulative, dysfunctional, and toxic her behavior is... .you have no RIGHT to HER body. That is completely hers, to make her own choices with, no matter how bad or inexplicable they seem to you.

[Proteus]

WOW this is not just happening to me. Good luck brother. I havent been married to her so long as you.

To illustrate what happened last month. She claimed that she was having difficulty with her period starting and she had cramps and premenstrual pains. A week later the period only started, so she just pulled the wool over eyes. This is awful that she with so much conviction and I believe that she really believes she is genuine, but this level of sophistication in deception is scary. Sometimes I think that she is pure evil.

[Cat Familiar]

I will play Devils advocate here--are you sure she is withholding to punish you?

From my experience and having talked with girlfriends about this topic, I've come to the conclusion that women's sexuality is more complicated than men's.

If we're not comfortable with something in the relationship, our desire dries up--literally and figuratively, if that's not too graphic. Now I know that some women are quite successful at using their sexuality to get things and your wife sounds like she may fit that category.

However passion can disappear if something is amiss in the relationship, and really what relationship doesn't have some dysfunction? And this is difficult to repair, I've discovered from my own experience.

For some women, it takes a lot to be vulnerable and open and to trust. You might ask her what specifically you can do to win her trust and to repair this rift.

I'm in the same situation as you, just on the other side. Both my BPD husband and I would like to restore our intimacy, but we don't know where to start.

[Grey Kitty]

I'll go a step further on that one.

If you focus on her withholding sex to punish you, nothing good will come of it for you.

If you are wrong... .the natural resentment and accusations will only make things worse.

If you are right... .I still don't see how this helps you. Saying anything along the lines of "Stop punishing me." or "I don't deserve your punishment." isn't going to improve anything for you.

Much more useful to focus on improving your side of the r/s so she won't want to hurt or punish you.

Or focus on protecting yourself from any abusive actions she takes toward you.

[vortex of confusion]

To illustrate what happened last month. She claimed that she was having difficulty with her period starting and she had cramps and premenstrual pains. A week later the period only started, so she just pulled the wool over eyes. This is awful that she with so much conviction and I believe that she really believes she is genuine, but this level of sophistication in deception is scary. Sometimes I think that she is pure evil.

How old is your wife? It is very possible to have cramps and premenstrual pains up to a week before your period starts. I will think I am going to start and have cramps and feel horrible and not start until a week later. This is especially true if there are any hormonal imbalances. And, hormonal imbalances can lead to lack of interest in sex. It could be related to BPD but it could also be related to the physiology of being a woman.

[Moselle]

How old is your wife? It is very possible to have cramps and premenstrual pains up to a week before your period starts. I will think I am going to start and have cramps and feel horrible and not start until a week later. This is especially true if there are any hormonal imbalances. And, hormonal imbalances can lead to lack of interest in sex. It could be related to BPD but it could also be related to the physiology of being a woman.

Ironically just before and during my wife's period she is often extremely amorous. So as male the efforts to understand female sexuality remain elementary at best. I think the best is just to try and enjoy the unpredictability of it all. You never know what you're going to get. I think every woman should have a ''no" respected, without pressure and without pouting.  Unfortunately when a "no" is used to punish or manipulate as per BPD, it erodes something beautiful meant to bless a marriage - intimacy.

[Mr. Solo]

My dBPDw only began withholding sex when she was having an affair with a woman. However, before that, she did use sexual favors to manipulate me. For example, if it was late at night and she wanted something to snack on, she would tell me if I went for her, she would do ________ when I got back. She didn't even need to do this as I always went for her anyways. Nevertheless, she would do that and then when it was time to do the deed, she would act like I was being ridiculous for expecting her to really keep her end of the deal. When our relationship got bad enough to where I was sick of being treated like that and I started refusing when she would try and make a deal, she would get so mad at me for daring to think she wouldn't keep her end of the deal. In other words, I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't. LOL.

[Proteus]

Well said Moselle.

We are dealing with diabolical energy which uses feminine problems and mystique in order to destroy something wholesome and natural. This is the big problem with the BPD spouse or partner. Sometimes it feels to me that I am in the twilight zone or something as I find that her extreme intelligence and the manner in which she manipulates the situation borders on the unreal.

[Grey Kitty]

she did use sexual favors to manipulate me.

... .

In other words, I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't. LOL.

You got it. If you play that game, everybody involved is going to lose.

[Cat Familiar]

Our culture is really f@cked up about sex. Women are supposed to be pure, but alluring, but not too much in public. It becomes a commodity that men seek and that women are supposed to hold back, unless they're in a committed relationship. While women are daily depicted in the media wearing little to nothing, which used to be the province of "men's magazines," simultaneously reproductive rights are being restricted and birth control is not considered by many to be a part of basic health care insurance, while erectile dysfunction drugs are.

We women pay the price for unwanted pregnancy, our moods and desires can swing wildly from one extreme to another due to hormonal shifts.

And this is the reality for normal women. Add BPD into the mix and you've got yourself a real rodeo!

[Olinda]

Thanks for bringing up expectations surrounding sex and also another previous poster who rightfully stated that women's sexuality is complicated and it may not be manipulation. It may just be lack of things lining up for sex to feel right or safe.

Please please recognize that sex without full consent and willingness and openness will be abusive and is not something anyone here should be pressing for or advocating for.  Sexuality is a complex thing and the BPD partner needs a lot of compassion and understanding.

[Proteus]

OK ladies point taken. Lets disentangle this discussion from female issues and the issue of female sexuality, respect for the next person's bodily integrity etc. All this is a given. What we are dealing with here are BPD wives who due to the pathology in the psyches are being problematic to their spouses and indeed to the reasonable and natural continuation of normal sexual relations, and who in bizarre ways have twisted this into a matter of manipulation and control over their spouses.

[vortex of confusion]

OK ladies point taken. Lets disentangle this discussion from female issues and the issue of female sexuality, respect for the next person's bodily integrity etc. All this is a given. What we are dealing with here are BPD wives who due to the pathology in the psyches are being problematic to their spouses and indeed to the reasonable and natural continuation of normal sexual relations, and who in bizarre ways have twisted this into a matter of manipulation and control over their spouses.

I do understand exactly what you are saying. I think many of us are trying to say, ":)on't play the game." She can only control you and manipulate you if you let her. If you can step away from it by chalking it up to female hormones, that would be a good thing.

I am going to share some of my story to give you an idea of what I am talking about. My husband could not get interested in me for a long time. He claimed to have ED and some other stuff. I questioned it because he could get excited for certain favors but not for actual intercourse. I hope I am not being too graphic. Fast forward a bit. We decided to try having an open marriage. If he thought I was doing something with another man, he could easily get excited. That led to a situation where the only way he could have sex with me was for me to do something with someone else and then come home and tell him about it. At one point, he even asked me to call him by my lover's name. Once I realized that I did not like this situation and that I was being manipulated and used, I put a stop to it. I quit telling him things and I stopped having sex with him. Yes, that means that there are times when I am very sexually frustrated. I would rather be frustrated that be manipulated or controlled. I try to focus on other areas of the relationship and find things to keep me busy. I know that if I were to relent things might feel good for a couple of days but then things would go right back to the usual after the sexual release wore off. I don't want to be on that roller coaster any more. I am sure that my husband perceives my withholding as punishment or control. My withholding has nothing to do with me punishing him. It is about me wanting to feel like I have complete control over my own body.

[MissyM]

Well, I am a woman and my dBPDh denied me of sex for many, many years.  He would blame me for lack of sex and he would ask why wouldn't I use sex to manipulate him?   He has a poor grasp of intimacy, since he had almost no attachment to his parents as a child and I think he saw that sex was used as a form of power and abuse by his parents.  For now, we are focusing on intimacy and developing that.  We are not having sex as often as I would like but when we do, it is much more intimate.  I am hoping that the more work we do, the more our sex life will be active.

Is there any way to take the power struggle out of your sexual relationship and shift it to an act of intimacy and bringing each other together?  There is a really good book that I am wanting to work on with a therapist called Passionate Marriage, I have heard very good things about it.

[anik0]

MissyM, did your husband manage to work on it in his therapy? Or did it take another therapy focused on intimacy/sexual issues?

[MissyM]

MissyM, did your husband manage to work on it in his therapy? Or did it take another therapy focused on intimacy/sexual issues?

Yes, he is working on some of it in individual and we are starting to work on some of it together. 

[Moselle]

I will play Devils advocate here--are you sure she is withholding to punish you?

From my experience and having talked with girlfriends about this topic, I've come to the conclusion that women's sexuality is more complicated than men's.

I didn't see this one. Thanks Cat Familiar.

I really appreciate the feedback. Hearing your thoughts and opinions is very useful. I do think she has the usual female vagaries of sexuality, but there are deeper psychological scars at play too.  She opened up last year, after 13 years of marriage and 3 years of therapy, that she allowed herself to feel good during sex for the first time... .ever. A childhood indoctrination that "sex is necessary for having children, but is otherwise an evil thing." has been a difficult thing for me to comprehend.

To her sex was a necessary evil and one which was used to accomplish various goals she had, most including receiving money and other items that she wanted, as well as playing victim. It was certainly not for pleasure. How sad for her!

I am literally spell bound when I look back at the conditioning I went through, and participated in. It's like it was a different life. I was entranced in an abusive delusion. I admit it, I was victimised by someone so good at this game that she completely outwitted me at every turn.

There is an attempt by her to try and deal with this stuff, and I do not see malice in what she does. I don't think it is a conscious choice, but the need to manipulate is so strong in her that sex is just too easy to use as a tool.

She plays the "I don't trust you" game to push the guilt/ self-esteem problems onto me, and make the sexual mistrust my problem. To use an example, yesterday I took her on a guided kayaking trip. I had met the female instructor the previous day, and we had a friendly discussion about the weather!, and a few other details about the city we live in. When we arrived, there was a rapport from the previous day's meeting and I exchanged pleasantries with the instructor and got busy with preparing the kayak. My wife came to me and said "I saw how you were talking to her. I'm not comfortable with that woman, for all I know you are sleeping with her."

What do you do with that? If I speak to another woman, I am flirting, and or sleeping with her. I am gregarious and friendly with everyone, male and female and I am really good at it. I enjoy meeting with strangers. (this is part of me which I have allowed to come back into my life since the separation. I realise, bizarrely that I had stopped talking to and being friendly with strangers during my marriage to prevent the inevitable conversations about fidelity with my wife)

What could I have done to assure her? I validated her feelings as legitimate and real, and thanked her for sharing her concerns with me, I probably shouldn't have but I also mentioned that the woman was married to the other instructor and that I had never had any romantic thoughts or feelings about her whatsoever. She didn't raise it again.

[anik0]

Moselle, sorry I can not help you with your concerns, but only want to say, that my gf said the same thing to me when we were talking about our difficulties with sex:

She opened up last year, after 13 years of marriage and 3 years of therapy, that she allowed herself to feel good during sex for the first time... .ever

She said that for the first time she is about to make love to someone she feels emotionally attached to, with someone she has feelings for. And that this is very difficult to her to open up for these emotions and pleasue during sex.

MissyM, thank for your reply.

After a week of "separation" and giving us some time to think about possible solutions, my gf called me today to say that she is going to start working on her intimacy issues and our sex problems with her therapist in monday. Also she said she is going to set it a main objective for her therapy now. I know this is going to be extremaly difficult to her and I hope she manage to work that through. I know this may take time but as long as she is willing to work on that, I am going to give her time - I hope... .

Also I am going to find a therapist for myself to take a closer look at my needs of being a rescuer which I probably have. I know I need help to change my pattern of being in a relationship and I need help to set healthy for me and good for my gf boundries.

I guess it all comes down to if pwBPD is able to aknowledge the problem and is willing to work on it. For me, all we can do is to give them our support and develop a healthy attachment to them - not as a rescuer nor codependent partner nor someone who set unstable boundries... .

[Cat Familiar]

Moselle, I too got the "sex is evil" programming from my parents. Teenage hormones and a rebellious spirit got me past that, for a while.

Then unplanned pregnancy, abortion, my former husband's repeated infidelities, and finally menopause all conspired to take a lot of fun out of it.

My current husband doesn't deserve the Sahara Desert, but as I've mentioned in other posts, I became so frustrated with his behavior that I sort of removed myself emotionally (and physically) from the relationship. I'm working on fixing that, but it's not easy.

He could say I'm withholding sex, but it's a lot more complex than that.