Set a boundary--we shall see.

[jedimaster]

Another chapter in the ongoing saga of The Mini-Farm That Won't Die... .

My uBPDw decided Thanksgiving morning was as good a time as any to jump into a major discussion of why I haven't done anything with the small farm she insisted we start and then abandoned for me to care for.  Fortunately and blessedly I was able to stay detached and allow her accusations to flow on by my Force-bubble    (It was easier having heard them a million times before.)  I listened empathetically while she told me how much it hurt for her to give up her art (another story; her choice; not necessary), and now it broke her heart to see "our" farm not living up to the vision she had.  

She still insists the farm can be a profitable venture if only I were willing to listen to her directions (she attends free workshops from the extension service; therefore she's a master farmer).  

So I told her I'd give it one more try.  Provided-- it is a JOINT effort.  My exact, clearly enunciated, specific words were:  "I will only do this if we do it together.  This is either a two-person farm or a zero-person farm.  If you quit again, I will either sell it all or scale it back to what I want to take care of by myself.  I will only do this on that condition."  Even though I know JADEing will do no good if she chooses to discard that memory, it is burned into mine.  I know where was sitting, what she was doing, what day it was (how thoughtful of her to choose one that will be hard to dispute!), and word for word what was said.  JADEing may not work, but if I decide to I can give it one heckuva shot.  

So, now the boundary is set.  If she decides I don't need her help, her precious farm is history.  I realize there will be lots of smaller boundaries that have to be set, but I hope to use the big one to help enforce the smaller ones.  So we'll see how it goes.  I enjoy caring for our livestock, but they are not housepets.  I am fully prepared to put the whole thing on Craigslist, lock, stock, and barrel.  Even before I started learning about BPD I was hurt so badly by a previous "joint effort" that I vowed never again to get emotionally invested in anything we do together.  So it's in her court; I can sell it tomorrow and not shed a tear.  I would be happy to be proven wrong and see her take a real, lasting interest in something useful without expecting me to do all the work.  But I'm almost certain I'm hoping against hope.

Anyway, the part I'm most proud of is that all this was handled on a holiday without an argument.  Except for the ridiculous accusations and twisted logic, it almost sounded like the way two normal people might have discussed something.  But it took every ounce of self-control I could muster and some serious internal Jedi cosplay (I had the Force swirling all around me; nothing could touch me emotionally unless I allowed it to... .hehehe... .)

Does this ever get any easier?  

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[jedimaster]

... .Well, that really lasted, didn't it? 

Actually I'm impressed, she made it a little over 24 hours before the Terms and Conditions started flowing.  All kinds of backpedaling and "that's not what I said; that's not what happened;" etc., etc.  I tried not to JADE but it was hard not to and stick to my guns.  But I held out; either we do it together (and "together" does not mean she gives orders and I do all the work) or I'm selling out.  After endless rounds and rounds and rounds and rounds, she finally just said "If you need any help putting it on Craigslist I can do that."  To which I said, "No thanks; I can handle it" and left it at that. 

All of this is related (somehow) to our family finances.  Living within our means to her amounts to me taking on more work or changing jobs as well as magically making the farm profitable without her help.  She tries to couch her opinions in terms of "helping me visualize my potential". 

I finally had to draw a line in that sand as well.  I'm not broke or underemployed.  My sister owns a highly successful and growing business, and we planned strategically for five years, waiting for her business to grow to the point she could take me on.  I make about 80K, with good bennies, and get to work from home.  In my field and all over my home state I am considered an expert at what I do.  I finally told her clearly that I am happy doing what I do, I make way more than average for our area, and I have no intention of leaving my job just so she doesn't have to help manage our budget.

Of course she's barely speaking now, and since we were just about to finish preparing dinner when all this started, she's sworn off cooking any more big meals, ever.  I'm sure if I had BPD that would make perfect sense.  Since she has trucked all her art supplies to the thrift store and offered to help sell the farm animals, she's running out of things to quit. 

[Mie]

Even before I started learning about BPD I was hurt so badly by a previous "joint effort" that I vowed never again to get emotionally invested in anything we do together.  So it's in her court; I can sell it tomorrow and not shed a tear.  I would be happy to be proven wrong and see her take a real, lasting interest in something useful without expecting me to do all the work.  But I'm almost certain I'm hoping against hope.

Been there too.

Soon after he moved with me we started to build a house. I was so happy that he was hands on and experienced in building, also our ideas were matching and plan looked fantastic. It was a beautiful project, the house came out fantastic. But you can imagine the crazy making process with a pwBPD! He was THE BOSS. Well, he was also working hard every day, but I had a demanding full time job in a global company, long days and lots of travel and still he insisted that I would also work all evenings and weekends at the builting site as if it was not enough that I took care of the f... .bureaucracy, finance, contracts etc. He went a lot  ( and I mean a lot) over budget, when I reminded of that he went berserk blaming me for not being interested in the project and undermining his work... .Eventually we had to sell the house before even living there.

I am a project junkie, and not only having my personal projects and those with other people, we had to start another one! I had learned nothing! That projcet was not finished and put me (me, not him!) in financial disaster and debts. Bad times, all my fault.

And now we were 'given' and opportunity to start a cafe. We planned all in short time and it's been running for half a year. It's a success, but not yet financially because of starting costs are much higher than budgeted... .there we go again. And guess who is doing all the work, and who is blaming it's a disaster... .

I'm trying to set my boundaries now that we are changing the company form: each one gets money out of the company based on working hours, not ownership only. Yes, 'owning' is a hard job 

I said to him once when he was saying he's doing all the work and no-one else knows nothing: Ok, it's all yours. And he said: I don't want it any more. It's ruined. It's YOURS!

It's a dangerous trap that we are a great team generating successful ideas. Can't blame him only but should set my boundaries.

[jedimaster]

I am totally done with joint projects.  I gave this one last shot and it barely made it 24 hours.  About 2-1/2 years ago my wife got us into running and totally changed our lives.  One of the few positive things she has done and I give her full credit for it.  But then we got in shape and started working out together, and we signed up and started training for a half-marathon.  About halfway into the training she completely dysregulated on some random subject, connected it to the running, and pulled out of the training.  I had gotten so emotionally invested in our running together that it devastated me.  It was cruel on her part and she knew it.  I vowed never to get emotionally connected to anything else we do together, and I'm sticking to that.  I'm deciding which livestock to keep and making plans to sell the rest ASAP, before anything can change.

Interesting you mention a house--we are trying to complete our home (long story) and the builder came by today to discuss getting started.  Wifey has washed her hands of any involvement and I'm fine with that.  So she said hello, said "He knows what he wants," and left, while I had a good productive convo with the builder.  I hate to do this without her, but we have already burned through the money for this project once, and this is our last opportunity.  It's literally my way or nothing, because if she gets involved again it'll never happen.

[Cat Familiar]

Mie and Jedimaster,

I completely agree how maddening it is to try to have joint projects with pwBPD.

I ran a food business with my xBPDh and the division of labor was definitely not equal. He would up and quit something when he got upset, leaving me to take up the slack.

My current BPDh and I did an extensive addition to the house I built many years ago and guess who did all the overseeing of contractors? And you'll never guess who criticized all the problems that inevitably arise with any construction project. Somehow these pwBPD seem to think that things magically happen, and that they should happen perfectly.

Jedimaster, I've got a menagerie of animals: horses, goats, sheep, cats. In the 10 years we've lived together, how many times do you think my BPDh has fed them? Zero! I find it humorous that he's afraid of the sheep. We don't have rams, so that's not an issue and the sheep would be terrified of him after reading his body language, if he were ever to go in their territory.

[Cat Familiar]

Oh, and Jedimaster, I know a half dozen "professional farmers" in my area. They work their a@@es off and make very little money. Having a profitable "mini farm" is a complete pipe dream, unless one's crop is marijuana, and I know a few who do that too--and they work their a@@es off too!

[Grey Kitty]

Yeah, that was quick! I didn't even read the topic before it had gone down already.

How are the parts of the mini-farm going on craigslist?

[jedimaster]

Basically the livestock.  I'll probably keep the chickens for eggs, one hog is ready for the freezer, and one goat is ailing and will have to get well before she can be sold.  The rest (sheep, goats, pigs) will be going up on CL. I might keep two ewes for meat, depending on whether I want to deal with them.  Right now I'm thinking not.  There's not much in the way of saleable equipment. 

I still owe a stretch of fence repair to my neighbor where the ram has torn up his fence.  So even after it's sold I still have work to do.

[jedimaster]

Oh, and Jedimaster, I know a half dozen "professional farmers" in my area. They work their a@@es off and make very little money. Having a profitable "mini farm" is a complete pipe dream, unless one's crop is marijuana, and I know a few who do that too--and they work their a@@es off too!

Wouldn't be the first impossible pipe dream I've been hooked into supporting... .

[Cat Familiar]

You've definitely got your hands full with all those critters.

Wouldn't be the first impossible pipe dream I've been hooked into supporting... .

This reminds me of a contractor who, years ago, helped me build my little house--before the giant project with my current BPDh. His wife was into multi-level marketing. When they split up, he had cases of supplies and promotional material for about 10 different ventures. She kept starting different "businesses" and quitting shortly afterwards.

Some of you men have the patience of a saint!

[jedimaster]

... .And now for the Evening Farm Report... . 

The liquidation process has begun.  I went around taking selfies of all the animals and started posting ads on Craigslist.  Within hours of the first posting I had a reply.  He came out this afternoon and we loaded up two sheep and two goats. When he asked about a discount I gave him a small one and threw in a rooster to cover the rest  I just got off CL from taking down those ads, posting some new ones, and sending out some "sorry, they're sold" emails.  Several more animals to sell but except for some backyard chickens and one big hog who's going to the freezer, I'm on my way out of the farming business.  Interestingly it looks like livestock is selling pretty good locally right now.  If she had been willing to help we might have been able to make some money buying babies and feeding them out, but I need the time and money for other things right now, in particular for my own emotional health.

I was prepared for some kind of snarky remark when I told her about the sale, but so far nothing (that's not to say it won't come later).  I was also expecting to be asked for some of the money, but that hasn't happened either.  It's going into the building fund asap.  I was prepared to offer her a couple of hundred for mad money and put the rest up for the house, but if she's not going to ask I'm going to wait about offering.  

I guess we'll see how it goes.  Other than telling her about the sale I'm not going to mention it unless she does.  But hopefully she may realize that I have started sticking to boundaries.

[MaroonLiquid]

Good job jedi!  Yoda once said, "There is no try, there is only do or do not."  What a black and white statement, but yet it's so true!  Maybe Yoda was BPD!     Anyway, boundaries work, and I need to start implementing them more in my r/s.  I realize I have backed off of a couple and "moved the line". 

[adventurer]

may sound strange coming from a stranger but jedimaster, I'm really proud of you for setting a boundary with consequences and sticking to it.

Joint projects are the worst.  We're fixing up our house, she's the handy one and said she would be up for all the work.  Nope.  And anytime I try to do something on my own, I just get a load of nonsense about how I'm doing it the wrong way.  She also starts projects, gets 20% in and then it just sits there. 

Trying to get her to find a job after 10 years of her doing nothing.  I'm not sure what practical consequence I can set up for her failure other than divorce.

[jedimaster]

Joint projects are the worst.  We're fixing up our house, she's the handy one and said she would be up for all the work.  Nope.  And anytime I try to do something on my own, I just get a load of nonsense about how I'm doing it the wrong way.  She also starts projects, gets 20% in and then it just sits there. 

They're reading from the same manual    My wife has said she's going to try to find a job after the first of the year when her foot surgery heals.  She has been quite successful in several different jobs over the years, so maybe that will be good for her.  We shall see.

[maxsterling]

All of this is related (somehow) to our family finances.  Living within our means to her amounts to me taking on more work or changing jobs as well as magically making the farm profitable without her help.  She tries to couch her opinions in terms of "helping me visualize my potential". 

Wow, new to this thread, but seriously, I wonder if my wife has a twin sister she does not know about

Boy this all rings true, nearly verbatim!  Same thing going on here!

[formflier]

 

Nice work Jedi!

I just read all this... .was a bit worried about you putting them on FB... instead of her... .but it seems to have worked out.

I made sure my wife and daughter did the posting when we downsized our farm.

I totally stayed out of it...

[jedimaster]

Nice work Jedi!

I just read all this... .was a bit worried about you putting them on FB... instead of her... .but it seems to have worked out.

I made sure my wife and daughter did the posting when we downsized our farm.

I totally stayed out of it...

Given her attitude about the whole thing, it would not have surprised me for her to refuse/delay, etc.  That's been her M.O. in the past.  Since she insisted that she was having no part of the farm any more and it was mine to run (except of course for her criticism and interference), I made the decision as the new "owner" to sell out.

I've actually kept it off FB and posted everything on CL.  I could probably move it all on FB in a day or two, but then I might have to explain more about what is going on.  I'm being choosy about whom I talk to about our r/s.

[formflier]

 

Solid work... and reasoning.


What is the plan to avoid future joint projects?

[jedimaster]

Solid work... and reasoning.


What is the plan to avoid future joint projects?

I guess you mean something a little more sophisticated than yelling "Hell no!" and running for the door... . 

For one thing, my explanation to her regarding the farm (and which of course gets constantly thrown back at me) was that I simply do not have time for it and also hold down my job and my other responsibilities.  So the first line of defense is to remind her that I don't have time for another joint project.  My plan is to find some way to say "thanks, but no thanks" to anything she might cook up.  If by some miracle she comes up with something I cannot stay away from (I can't imagine at this point what that would be, but I can conceive that she might come up with some scheme in which I might have to get involved to keep her from causing a disaster), then I will set a firm boundary and a zero-strike policy, and stick to it.

[formflier]

 

Does she take the time to break out a schedule and show you that you have the time... .when tossing it back at you... .or doe she simply belittle you that you can't figure it out.

i generally take the tactic that my wife needs to fill in the blanks... fill in the details before I will consider it.  That usually kills the discussion without me having to say no.

[Cat Familiar]

i generally take the tactic that my wife needs to fill in the blanks... fill in the details before I will consider it.  That usually kills the discussion without me having to say no.

I wish I had known how to do that strategy when I was married to my xBPDh--it would have saved so much time, money and heartache if I didn't have to get involved in his crazy schemes that he never saw to the end.

[formflier]

It can be tough... especially if they try the "if you loved me you would... xyz... "

Key is to be "behind" them... .and to not be the puppet... .with them being the puppet master.

[Grey Kitty]

What is the plan to avoid future joint projects?

I guess you mean something a little more sophisticated than yelling "Hell no!" and running for the door... . 

Jedi, keep this one in your back pocket. It is a clear statement and good boundary enforcement. 

It isn't even JADEing at her, which would be far worse!

Nor is it being snarky: "Why don't you ask all the livestock I just sold how good an idea joint projects are?"

When it comes down to it... .you are saying no, and that is the important part. It is still a ___ sandwich, even if you put frosting on it.

If you can, use S.E.T. or validate... .try to be tactful about it.

[jedimaster]

Does she take the time to break out a schedule and show you that you have the time... .when tossing it back at you... .or doe she simply belittle you that you can't figure it out.

i generally take the tactic that my wife needs to fill in the blanks... fill in the details before I will consider it.  That usually kills the discussion without me having to say no.

The fact that I can't magically arrange my schedule and create the time, money, and energy to jump in with both feet, and simultaneously take the lead in accomplishing all tasks while being submissive and supportive of her every thought, whim, and idea for the project and anticipating her mood and idea changes even before they happen, is evidence of my "failing to share the vision" of what the project could be and "not living up to my potential and using my talents to make this greater than anything we've ever done before."

At least that's what I get told every time I try to make her justify one of her ideas, or tell me how I'm supposed to make it happen with no time and no money.

The difference is I know my potential these days, and I have a vision that no longer includes being led around by the nose from one impossible task to the next.  

I'm pretty certain that there is no way to work with her successfully on any project of consequence, at least not unless she gets some help.  I have finally found the backbone to say "no;" I just want to learn to do it with compassion and without invalidating her at every turn.

[jedimaster]

What is the plan to avoid future joint projects?

I guess you mean something a little more sophisticated than yelling "Hell no!" and running for the door... . 

Jedi, keep this one in your back pocket. It is a clear statement and good boundary enforcement. 

Well it certainly is that!  And I wouldn't have to worry about it being so subtle she didn't get it either. 

I guess it is worth keeping in mind, filed under "When all else fails... ."

[jedimaster]

Well, supposedly I don't have to worry about what I'll be doing this summer... . 

My son and I "gifted" our outdoor doggie with an expansion of his kennel for Christmas today, since the weather turned out to be very pleasant.  So when I told my wife what I was about to be doing, she asked about how the farm liquidation was going, and I told her we were down to just a few more animals left to sell.  I said after the goats were all gone we could close off the divider fence and let the dog have a huge fenced area to run free.

Whereupon she informed me that the dog couldn't do that, because I would be taking down all the fences I had put up the last three years!  Not only that but without goats to clean out the undergrowth I would need to clean up the back pasture and keep it mowed this summer.   

Not wanting to detonate any tactical nukes on a holiday, I kept my eyes glued to my tablet and my teeth firmly clamped on my tongue, in order to avoid staring at her like she just grew another head and also to avoid telling her if she thought for a nanosecond I was going to take on another giant project she was nuttier than a pecan pie.   

I just smiled to myself and continued to enjoy my Christmas afternoon, because I recently re-discovered a little word I learned as a toddler... .

The word is "no".

Unlike back then, this time I'll be the one determining the consequences for using it. 

[maxsterling]

Yikes.  Wow.  Yeah, it never ends.   

I've been there.  Just when I think I have finally gotten ahead and some "me" time, she will find another thing to fill it, or at least some kind of guilt trip to prevent me from enjoying it. 

Hard to tune it out.

[Grey Kitty]

  "No" is a great word.

However... .if you weren't asked a question, you don't have to answer it 

That can wait until she asks something like "When will you start?" or "Why haven't you started yet?" or "What's taking you so long?"

[formflier]

Whereupon she informed me that the dog couldn't do that, because I would be taking down all the fences I had put up the last three years!  Not only that but without goats to clean out the undergrowth I would need to clean up the back pasture and keep it mowed this summer.   

What kind of fencing?

If you want it down... .I've seen some people that will pay a certain about to come take down the fence and haul it away... .because they want to use it.

There is usually a higher price if you take it down.

That would be an interesting one to toss in her lap. 

honey... .here is the fencing offer... .we can have this much $$ if they take it down and haul it away... .or if YOU take it down you can bring in this much extra cash.  And let her decide... .   

From my previous experience with small farm stuff... .I would advise you to leave them up.  You may find renters for the field... .or other things to bring in a little bit of $$

If i had of been you... .I would have had a hard time not "reacting to that"... .

Have you ever asked her how it is that she gets to decide what you do? 

Do you get to decide what she does... .I'm guessing the answer is no.

I find it interesting to stay non reactive... .and listen to them attempt to justify things... .

[jedimaster]

It's not good enough fencing to sell.  Mostly salvage and re-used.  But I do have some that I purchased new that I am going to look at selling.  It was never put up because before I could get started she had a half-dozen more "urgent" projects for me to start on.

I've tried tossing things back to her.  An exercise in futility.  I'm just done.  Going to take care of me for a while and get the house/yard in manageable order.  I used to enjoy getting outside before she made it so overwhelming.